The Classical Music Guide Forums

Jack Kelso

By the term "underrated" I mean not only should certain works be performed more often, but also that contributions in form, harmony, technique and impact on music history should be credited as well. Inded, Schubert has many lovely works---but I don't feel in his music the struggle, the search, the p...

Jack Kelso

Saint-Saens is often disrespected. Sometime ago I was given a coffee-table book titled "Great Composers" which covered the lives and times of composers from Bach to Gershwin. Saint-Saens is not even listed in the index. ' I'll bet Massenet wasn't either. I think most French composers are underrated...

Jack Kelso

Wish you had been as voluable on Handel. I could do without the oratorios, but the operas! There's where he made his mark. Oh, I can talk forever about Handel, too! But you threw me a curve ball on that last one. The Italian operas I've heard are very beautiful; however, I have about 13 Handel orat...

Jack Kelso

I don't think Schumann is underrated & would dispute the contention that he was responsible for "Creating a new harmonic language, not based on his predecessors". Chopin was at least as innovative if not more. It's hard to dispute score analysis even when your ears are telling you something differe...

Jack Kelso

I wonder what makes the Romanticism of Schubert , Chopin , Mendelssohn and Brahms "purer" than the others. This past season at the BSO we heard the Schumann Cello Concerto which is a really delightful work.[/quote] It seems to me that "pure" means "undiluted with programmatic references". Thus, abso...

Jack Kelso

Hi, Karl---I'd be happy to clarify the expression, "created a new language, not one based on his predecessors" as well as I can. Let's dispel that urban legend that Schumann wrote "pretty songs and piano pieces"--- Schumann was dissonant! William Boughton, conductor of the English Symphony Orchestra...

Jack Kelso

Well, if you consider Dittersdorff up there with Mozart, Beethoven and Schumann---post your reasons. Maybe critics have been overlooking his qualities. Franz Danzi, who was born where I live, is quite highly regarded here in the Schwetzingen/Mannheim area (but not THAT highly regarded---he's the "fa...

Jack Kelso

Well, to begin...there are several: Handel would be up there in popularity with Bach if more of his 23 grand oratorios would be in fashion (as the Bach cantatas are). Just listen to the 12 Concerti Grossi, opus 6. Some of them come very close to Bach's Brandenburg Concerti Nos. 2, 3 and 5. Others ce...

Jack Kelso

Years ago I read that both Hindemith and Schostakowitsch decried 12-tone serial music, saying that most--if not all--composers who write it do so because they lack natural creative talent. I believe they were right. Many would-be great composers get on that bandwagon (pun intended) feeling that if t...

Jack Kelso

In addition to doing good service to Frank Martin, Bamert has also been instrumental (pun intended!) in promoting and recording the symphonies of Joachim Raff, who is currently experiencing a real renaissance of his symphonic and chamber works.

Jack

Jack Kelso

... you can hear and feel the difference between GENIUS and COMPETENCE. Yes, though the difference defies neat definition ... and even the criteria in these articles fairly readily live into the indefinition .... ... and don't be hatin' on my Dittersdorf ! :-) Sorry, about any slurs. But you're rig...

Jack Kelso

Certainly there's greatness in music----when you play two symphonies back-to-back - one by Mozart and the other by Dittersdorf - you can hear and feel the difference between GENIUS and COMPETENCE. Or Lachner's 8th Symphony and Schubert's 8th ("Unfinished"), two composers who were perfectly contempor...

Jack Kelso

That list of "10" qualities of greatness needs a little something, hmm....called "indefinable spirituality" (not necessarily meaning religious!), where the feeling goes right to the soul. This is a quality possessed by very few, even "great" composers. Handel, J.S. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann,...

Jack Kelso

I agree, Corlyss. Stokowski's recordings are "fun", but they really can't be taken seriously. A review of his Tschaikowsky Fifth said, basically, "play this one when you have a party!"

Jack

Jack Kelso

Yes, the instrumentation---I realized after I sent that --isn't it the "Royal Fireworks" in which the exact instrumentation is not exactly known? And does Handel indicate serpentines in the "Water Music"? By "baroque" performance, I refer to most performances which don't used the slick, beefed-up or...

Jack Kelso

There are a lot of terrific Norwegian composers. I second the recommendation for the Svendsen symphonies (I prefer the Jansons/Chandos recording). If 20th century music floats your boat, you really need to listen to some of Harald Saeverud's symphonies, especially 3 and 9 (I don't think they've all...

Jack Kelso

I learned this work over forty years ago from Malcolm Sargent's recording with the Royal Phil. Orch....in the Hamilton-Hardy orchestration. Was I impressed! Well, I still like it---but today would lean more toward a baroque version like Marriner's or Leppard's. Fact is, no one knows for sure exactly...

Jack Kelso

I have the LP in question. Not terribly impressed. Then I got a a couple of CDs and got the same reaction. It is not bad music by any means. Just not so interesting or inspiring. Shaw started out having a low opinion of Raff, but liked Raff more and more later because he hated Brahms more and more....

Jack Kelso

I believe that, instead of composing symphonies, Raff should have turned his attention to ballet. He was a natural for the medium: wonderful melodic gift, varied rhythmic effects, superbly transparent instrumentation, a fine feeling for programmatic subjects, etc. And his relatively unemotional appr...

Jack Kelso

Good points, guys. Musicology changes from generation to generation. I remember when (1960's) Bruckner was still considered a "lesser" in America and recordings of his great symphonies were rare. Now (for many, at least) he's soaring up there with the greatest symphonists. Neville Carder in the 1950...

Jack Kelso

I'm ashamed to say, Herman...that I've largely ignored the 2nd Violin Sonata...and usually just listened to the 1st (op.105). Now I also have a recording of it for 'cello and piano, which comes across as a bit less passionate yet still beautiful. But now---I'm gonna git back to the 2nd Sonata again!...

Jack Kelso

Nice story...and it ended on a major key for us all. Let's be happy that the Romantics were content to admit Bach's superiority in writing fugues (and maybe a few other things!)

Best regards,
Jack

Jack Kelso

My comparison could also have been Mozart's A Major Piano Concerto, KV 488/any three of Mahler's symphonies....really, no insult to Brahms intended... But you're going against some pretty knowledgable musicologists and conductors if you refer to "Das Paradies und die Peri", "Szenen aus Goethes 'Faus...

Jack Kelso

Of course...Handel, Bach, Haydn and Mozart have lots of pages because they wrote so much; Brahms and Tschaikowsky because they're so popular. Johann Strauss, Jr. would get more than Pfitzner or Nielsen. Number of pages means little. In one lexicon there was more analysis of Brahms' "Horn Trio" than ...

Jack Kelso

Holden Fourth wrote:Leibowitz/RPO

I've always admired Leibowitz' ability to create wonderful sound from his ensemble. What's this recording like? When was it made?

Jack

Jack Kelso

I guess these "lists" have to be based on number of recordings (or the taste of the "list-maker") because a list like: 1. Mozart; 2. Beethoven; 3. Handel; 4. Bach; 5. Schumann; 6. Wagner; 7. Haydn, etc. is just about as objective. The great musicologist, Alfred Einstein (no relation) once wrote, "Ba...

Jack Kelso

I'm not a big fan of baroque music with period instruments, so my choice is the still wonderful...

Karl Muenchinger/Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra (London Records) from the early 1960's.

The sound may be a bit too lush for Vivaldi fans, but the playing is a total joy!

Jack

Jack Kelso

Good term, "dispatches".....yup!

Jack Kelso

Sorry, Herman...if I misread you. And you're right, even some of Schumann's more popular piano and chamber works need more "promotion". Here's a good one: most recommendation lists only include two of Schumann's chamber works---the Piano Quintet and the Piano Quartet (op. 47), but leave off the larg...

Jack Kelso

No lack of great recordings for this piece! I learned it from Rodzinski's, but sonically I need it in stereo today. Fricsay, Giulini both give beautiful readings....(never heard Kertesz', but it's no doubt grand!). Levine's is pretty dramatic, lots of brass!

Jack

Jack Kelso

Getting the "Rhenish" done in under half-an-hour is (to me) a sin; but an overblown performance is also not the way (but then again, I know someone who likes his Brahms Third stretched out by Bernstein to circa 40 minutes!). Even Szell, who hardly let Schumann breathe in the Fourth, goes slightly ov...

Jack Kelso

Huh...?! I guess I missed the parody of that last reply. It seems to me that we find ourselves on a Schumann piano music thread here, so if that genre doesn't interest anyone outside of Lance, myself and a few others---well, there are always discussion possibilities regarding Delibes ballets, Raff s...

Jack Kelso

Jack, you musn't think that lack of a riposte to your exalted opinion means everyone here agrees with you. Speaking for myself, I do not want to argue the finer points or rankings of a composer whom I do, in fact, appreciate, and I certainly don't want to dispute with a German whether the Germans co...

Jack Kelso

I happen to be one of those Schumann-lovers who doesn't believe that his piano compositions are "better" than either the great symphonies, choral, chamber or dramatic works. More successful? Sure, especially with certain academia, whose majority has never accepted Schumann and his orchestral works o...

Jack Kelso

Schumann's greatness is very much appreciated here in Germany, where he is one of the most often performed composers (just behind Mozart and Beethoven). It seems that this is not true in Anglo-Saxon countries, where so many of his masterpieces are totally neglected. The "Fantasiestuecke", op. 12 - l...

Jack Kelso

Most of the comments are so far about "historical" recordings. As for the Schuricht/Paris performance, I'm impressed with his 4th movement, where he allows the trombones and horns rather free rein, whereas most conductors keep the muzzle on them and let the strings soar. (The only pre-stereo recordi...

Jack Kelso

I used to have the Toscanini recording from 1949 (NBC Sym.) and he had a great grasp of the work. Unfortunately, the sound turned me off (after a while). And you're right: Szell IS too dry. Paray did the Schumann 2nd very well, but I don't remember his 3rd. Ach, but that horrible Mercury sound....! ...

Jack Kelso

Okay, I'm up to bat....so let's stay with Schumann. My first pick for a recording of what some Germans have called, "The Queen of Symphonies": Carlo Maria Guilini/Los Angeles Philharmonic. Agreed, the 1st movement tempi are almost leisurely, but the sound is gorgeous! I must admit here that the Kara...

Jack Kelso

Yes, I agree with Herman. Not only are there beautiful songs from Schumann's 3rd period---but also chamber, choral and orchestral works, most of which are pitifully neglected.

But---I think things are changing for the better....

Jack

Jack Kelso

No one has mentioned in which language the "dinner party" guests spoke. My guess would be English, as both Tschaikowsky and Grieg probably spoke a smattering of it.....but Brahms...?!

Jack

Jack Kelso

Yes, it's a great idea. By the way, all THREE of the works you mentioned are among my favorites!

So---who goes first...?!

Jack

Jack Kelso

Not popular?! You hit on one of my very favorite piano works by the composer who is regarded here in Germany as the greatest of the Romantics. Personally, I like the Rubinstein. But I haven't heard all the current recordings, so I leave that open until I do. It's not easy for pianists to interpret S...

Jack Kelso

Brahms' liking of Grieg's music was based in part on the latter's fine piano concerto, which reminds one of the great one by Schumann (also in a minor). (Clara actually once asked Brahms to re-write the Finale of her late husband's concerto---because she thought it not sufficiently virtuostic!! Wise...

Jack Kelso

Here's a good one: "Zardoz" (1974), science-fiction/fantasy film with Sean Connery, made very good use of the 2nd movement (Allegretto) from Beethoven's Seventh Symphony (in A Major, opus 92). See if you can find "Fruehlings-Sinfonie", a dramatized bio about Schumann's early life and love for Clara ...

Jack Kelso

I think anti-semitism in the mid-19th-century was largely, if not entirely, an individual attitude. Schumann and Brahms, both arians, had no biases (unless it was lack of talent!), but Franz Liszt DID side with Wagner about "Jewish music" on occasion (though Wagner later deleted Mendelssohn from his...

Jack Kelso

One of his greatest recordings was of Schumann's Third with my home-town orchestra, the Los Angeles Phil. Here his genius for orchestral tone-blending truly comes through---and he's not afraid to use the large-bore brass the way Schumann had intended! Unlike Bernstein, who recorded all the Schumann ...

Jack Kelso

Well, it sure is refreshing to read of other Hindemith fans out there! Here in Germany, he is appreciated---but unfortunately not played often enough. The great E-Flat Symphony (1940) is a TOUGH work to find. There is a Bernstein recording of it, but I can't seem to be able to order it. Anyone else ...

Jack Kelso

Theodor Berger--whose "Homeric Symphony" I'm willing to push every chance I get. I have a couple of symphonies by "unknowns" that I would like to push---and the Draeseke is one of them. Brahms regarded him as his greatest competitor in the symphony (not Raff, nor Bruckner). I find no "fatal flaws" ...

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The Greatest Under-rated Composers

Your First Pick? Schumann: Symphony No. 3 in E-Flat

Hindemith's E-Flat Symphony

Draeseke's "Sinfonia Tragica", opus 40