Chailly Mahler Box Set

mahlerfan
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Chailly Mahler Box Set

Post by mahlerfan » Fri May 13, 2005 8:31 pm

Who has heard the recordings? What do you think? My initial impressions of the 8th was boring, but I loved the 9th and now think maybe I just needed to come around to Chailly's perspective.

I ordered the set today for 35 pounds from MDT. :) Give a good listen through the entire cycle that's been highly praised.

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Post by MACHINA weapon » Fri May 13, 2005 10:28 pm

Chailly's cycle is probably going to be the best Mahler set for 21st century. I prefer his approach than Rattle and Tilson Thomas.

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Post by Ralph » Fri May 13, 2005 10:42 pm

Several people here were unhappy with his Resurrection performance here in N.Y. and they didn't like the disc either. I think the set is great, overall, especially the Fifth.
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Post by herman » Sat May 14, 2005 2:04 am

MACHINA weapon wrote:Chailly's cycle is probably going to be the best Mahler set for 21st century. I prefer his approach than Rattle and Tilson Thomas.
Inconceivable as it may sound, there is just an outside chance more sets will be recorded in the next 95 years. And just as inconceivably they are not necessarily going to replace recordings of an earlier vintage, just because they're newer and shinier.

The set was introduced at a special price of 25 euros here in Holland. I didn't do it. I like to have a good nr 4 and nr 7; the rest I don't need on a disc. Imagine listening to the 8th in my living room!

BTW the original Chailly releases were more interesting because of the couplings from the 2nd Viennese school.

I have the Chailly 4th, and the orchestra is wonderful (and the engineering too), however Barbara Bonney's hale next-door girl rendition of Wir genießen die himmlische Friede (or whatever) is bizarre.

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Post by Michel » Sat May 14, 2005 2:09 am

I have 9, and it took a really long time to "get", but I have now, and I think its great. My main reason for getting it was to try out SACD. The only thing is, I've never heard any another recording, so I cannot compare with anything! (I have Walter sitting on my shelf on LP, but dont have my turntables up here to listen to it!)

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Post by Ralph » Sat May 14, 2005 5:03 am

Michel wrote:I have 9, and it took a really long time to "get", but I have now, and I think its great. My main reason for getting it was to try out SACD. The only thing is, I've never heard any another recording, so I cannot compare with anything! (I have Walter sitting on my shelf on LP, but dont have my turntables up here to listen to it!)
*****

Which Walter? If you can get the 1938 Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra Mahler 9 on Dutton (excellent restoration), give it a try. There is an emotional tautness in that performance which took place very shortly before the Anschluss. It was the last Mahler before the Nazis took over and one of the last, if not the last, times Jews played in the VPO until after the war.
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Post by Barry » Sat May 14, 2005 6:07 am

herman wrote:
MACHINA weapon wrote:Chailly's cycle is probably going to be the best Mahler set for 21st century. I prefer his approach than Rattle and Tilson Thomas.
Inconceivable as it may sound, there is just an outside chance more sets will be recorded in the next 95 years. And just as inconceivably they are not necessarily going to replace recordings of an earlier vintage, just because they're newer and shinier.

The set was introduced at a special price of 25 euros here in Holland. I didn't do it. I like to have a good nr 4 and nr 7; the rest I don't need on a disc. Imagine listening to the 8th in my living room!

BTW the original Chailly releases were more interesting because of the couplings from the 2nd Viennese school.

I have the Chailly 4th, and the orchestra is wonderful (and the engineering too), however Barbara Bonney's hale next-door girl rendition of Wir genießen die himmlische Friede (or whatever) is bizarre.
I have at least one recording of all nine and two or three of most of them (with more for five and nine, but some of those were sent to me unsolicted by on-line friends). But I can understand your sentiments, Herman. I go through periodic long stretches when I listen to no Mahler at home. I rarely pass up an opportunity to hear one of the symphonies live though. It's great concert music.

I can't remember the last time I listened to the eighth in its entirety at home.

My only experience with Chailly's Mahler was a live second here in Philly. It was during the same tour as the New York performance that Ralph referred to. They probably played better here than they did in New York City. But it was not a great performance. I seem to recall thinking it was a bit too soft, especially at the climaxes.

I've seen the Concertgebouw live on four ocassions now, and while I've generally liked their playing and sound, I haven't had very good luck with the conductors interpretively speaking. And each of the four concerts was with a different conductor. They did sound fantastic in Amsterdam when I saw them play Bruckner's fifth, but Inbal (a late fill-in for Thielemann, who had cancelled) led what I thought was a strange performance. I'm hoping to have better luck with Jansons.

But then I go through bouts when I listen to one or two of the symphonies at home somewhat regularly. Which ones changes periodically. Some of the recordings I have were sent to me unsolicted by on-line friends.
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Post by Michel » Sat May 14, 2005 9:30 am

I just wanted to raise a tangential point, as I wanted advice on something really cheap I saw today. I have found Bernstein's(Sony) and Maazel's for £25 each. I am very tempted by the former. Should I get it? I already have the DG Kubelik cycle. (well, its in the post :) )

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Post by mahlerfan » Sat May 14, 2005 10:14 am

Michel, I think that you'll find that the Kubelik recordings and the Sony Bernstein will be quite close in interpretation. I have not heard any of the Maazel recordings.

So I think if you ordered the Kubelik, there's not that much point in ordering the Sony Bernstein set, unless of course, you are a Mahlerite. :)

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Post by Michel » Sat May 14, 2005 10:20 am

mahlerfan wrote:Michel, I think that you'll find that the Kubelik recordings and the Sony Bernstein will be quite close in interpretation. I have not heard any of the Maazel recordings.

So I think if you ordered the Kubelik, there's not that much point in ordering the Sony Bernstein set, unless of course, you are a Mahlerite. :)
At that price, though, I can practicaly afford to buy it, and then sell; making a profit.

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Post by mahlerfan » Sat May 14, 2005 10:23 am

Those box sets usually flood the market... if you think you can turn a profit Michel go for it... I just wouldn't count on it. Typically you can only do that for cds in high demand that are not widely available.

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Post by Michel » Sat May 14, 2005 10:26 am

mahlerfan wrote:Those box sets usually flood the market... if you think you can turn a profit Michel go for it... I just wouldn't count on it. Typically you can only do that for cds in high demand that are not widely available.
I got the Kubelik for £16 too. :) That one could definaely turn a profit, but you're right to be skeptial (careful) David.

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Post by mahlerfan » Sat May 14, 2005 10:29 am

Dang Michel, that's one hell of a bargain!! :shock: Wow, yeah you can easily make a profit on the Kubelik set. Perhaps though you should try a different style and see which you like better. Have you heard the super indulgant DG Bernstein recordings?

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Post by Michel » Sat May 14, 2005 10:30 am

mahlerfan wrote:Dang Michel, that's one hell of a bargain!! :shock: Wow, yeah you can easily make a profit on the Kubelik set. Perhaps though you should try a different style and see which you like better. Have you heard the super indulgant DG Bernstein recordings?
I haven't heard them, but if they were avaliable for £25 I would instantly buy it! £100 normally... :roll:

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Post by herman » Sat May 14, 2005 2:30 pm

I guess it was inevitable.

Why waste time listening to your cd's when you can try and sell 'em? :roll:

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Post by Michel » Sat May 14, 2005 5:36 pm

herman wrote: Why waste time listening to your cd's when you can try and sell 'em? :roll:
What you on about you silly little man. Don't talk rubbish.

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Post by Ralph » Sat May 14, 2005 5:50 pm

Michel wrote:I just wanted to raise a tangential point, as I wanted advice on something really cheap I saw today. I have found Bernstein's(Sony) and Maazel's for £25 each. I am very tempted by the former. Should I get it? I already have the DG Kubelik cycle. (well, its in the post :) )
BERNSTEIN!!!!!!!!!
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Post by mahlerfan » Sun May 15, 2005 1:17 am

You see Michel... it's seconded... go for it. :D

Of course don't follow up on the Dittersdorf recs. :twisted: Just kidding! :lol:

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Post by Michel » Sun May 15, 2005 2:53 am

mahlerfan wrote:You see Michel... it's seconded... go for it. :D

Of course don't follow up on the Dittersdorf recs. :twisted: Just kidding! :lol:
HMV has a great sale - you yanks might want to think about ordering if the posateg isnt too high. I'm gonna get the Bernstein Sibelius cycle too; thats just £13.

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Post by Ralph » Sun May 15, 2005 6:22 am

Michel's life would change if he could get a decent sampling of the great Dittersdorf's music - at ANY price. And he would never resell a single disc, you can bet on that.
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Post by MACHINA weapon » Sun May 15, 2005 8:51 am

Michel wrote:I just wanted to raise a tangential point, as I wanted advice on something really cheap I saw today. I have found Bernstein's(Sony) and Maazel's for £25 each. I am very tempted by the former. Should I get it? I already have the DG Kubelik cycle. (well, its in the post :) )
Commonsense dictates Bernstein. The VPO didn't warm up to Mahler when Maazel conduct so stay away.

And I haven't listen to Chaily's 3rd and 6th, but the rest is pretty good, although he still doesn't rank alongside Lenny and Horenstein as greatest Mahler interpreters. His Resurrection isn't edgy, but has lovely playing from Concertgebouw. And yes, there will be better cycles than Chailly for 21st century. I forgot to add the word "period".

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Post by mahlerfan » Sun May 15, 2005 9:37 am

There already is a better cycle-- Gielen/SWR. :)

Michel, Bernstein's CBS Sibelius cycle is fantastic!! It's worth it trust me. :)

Oh no another Horenstein nut! Horenstein's recordings do nothing for me, where other people find them transcendent, I find them mediocre. I guess Michel will have to decide himself what he thinks.

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Post by Ralph » Sun May 15, 2005 9:51 am

mahlerfan wrote:There already is a better cycle-- Gielen/SWR. :)

Michel, Bernstein's CBS Sibelius cycle is fantastic!! It's worth it trust me. :)

Oh no another Horenstein nut! Horenstein's recordings do nothing for me, where other people find them transcendent, I find them mediocre. I guess Michel will have to decide himself what he thinks.
*****

I guess I'm a "Horenstein nut" too but as fine as the interpretations are, the sonics aren't.
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Post by mahlerfan » Sun May 15, 2005 10:29 am

That is a big issue with me, sound has to be exceptional for Mahler because there's so much going on. It's not every day I get a chance to hear it live, so I want to get the most out of my cds.

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Post by pizza » Sun May 15, 2005 12:03 pm

What's the point of great sound for a mediocre performance? If the performance is great, that's enough to carry it, great sound or not.

BTW, the sound of Horenstein's 3rd is excellent and the performance hasn't yet been equalled in my opinion.

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Post by Ralph » Sun May 15, 2005 1:06 pm

pizza wrote:What's the point of great sound for a mediocre performance? If the performance is great, that's enough to carry it, great sound or not.

BTW, the sound of Horenstein's 3rd is excellent and the performance hasn't yet been equalled in my opinion.
*****

Which is why I never give up pushing Walter's Mahler 9 on Dutton, the performance with the VPO right before the Anschluss.
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Post by Michel » Sun May 15, 2005 2:51 pm

pizza wrote:What's the point of great sound for a mediocre performance? If the performance is great, that's enough to carry it, great sound or not.

BTW, the sound of Horenstein's 3rd is excellent and the performance hasn't yet been equalled in my opinion.
I would ordinarily agree, since most of my collection consists of historic performances; however, in some pieces, Bruckner's, Mahler's, Sibelius', or Shostakovich's symphonic work for example, I think that sound is a LOT more important than, say Chamber music or solo piano music, since the latter relies on sonics far less.

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Post by Michael » Sun May 15, 2005 3:16 pm

I bought the Kubelik Mahler one as it was always highly thought of by those who 'know'..found it rather dull to be honest, I had Horenstein on LP and rather enjoyed that. 2 I love the Klemperer, 3 I don't have on cd although have a fine video of Haitink with the Concertgebouw, 4 I have Klemperer but have fond memories of Szell, 5 Karajan, 6, Karajan and Barbirolli, 7 and 8 I don't have (don't really care for the works to be honest) and 9 Klemperer, Barbirolli and the last Karajan and the wonderful Berstein. 10 I don't have but recorded Guilini and the LAPO doing the adagio in the late 70s. I heard the concert in Manchester then the next day it was on the radio direct from London...absolutely wonderful..what a string sound! (The Eroica was in the second half) I had more versions on LP but like one poster I tend not to listen to Mahler at home...prefer to hear it live and I do play the works a great deal. I have fond memories of a particuarly fine Mahler 3 with my ex-chief conductor, Segiu Comissiona who sadly passed away quite recently.
Michael from The Colne Valley, Yorkshire.

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Post by herman » Sun May 15, 2005 3:46 pm

MACHINA weapon wrote:Commonsense dictates Bernstein. The VPO didn't warm up to Mahler when Maazel conduct so stay away.
Maazel's Mahler 4 with the VPO is very good, no matter whether the orchestra "warmed" to him or not. Neither you nor I were there, so that's all speculation and regurgitation of silly journalism.

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Post by Michel » Sun May 15, 2005 3:49 pm

herman wrote:
MACHINA weapon wrote:Commonsense dictates Bernstein. The VPO didn't warm up to Mahler when Maazel conduct so stay away.
Neither you nor I were there, so that's all speculation and regurgitation of silly journalism.
Hear hear. Journalists are the scourge of our planet.

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Post by herman » Sun May 15, 2005 3:55 pm

Michel wrote: Journalists are the scourge of our planet.
No, that's the internet.

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Post by Michel » Sun May 15, 2005 4:04 pm

herman wrote:
Michel wrote: Journalists are the scourge of our planet.
No, that's the internet.
I think they are probably one of the same thing; that is, two mystical legitimising entities for baseless opinions.

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Post by herman » Sun May 15, 2005 9:25 pm

That in itself is an internet notion.

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Post by mahlerfan » Sun May 15, 2005 9:29 pm

pizza wrote:What's the point of great sound for a mediocre performance? If the performance is great, that's enough to carry it, great sound or not.
But there are plenty of great modern recordings! Well I don't mean to say I would take a mediocre performance in excellent sound over an excellent performance in mediocre sound, but I never had to make that choice.

Ralph, that Walter '38 sound is horrible! Either due to the lack of good sound or the performance itself there is little color, little subtlety in that recording. :?

I agree with Michel, my main complaint is against historical recordings like that old Walter, you really need the nuances that the sonics of the old recordings can not provide IMO.

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Post by Ralph » Sun May 15, 2005 9:31 pm

mahlerfan wrote:
pizza wrote:What's the point of great sound for a mediocre performance? If the performance is great, that's enough to carry it, great sound or not.
But there are plenty of great modern recordings! Well I don't mean to say I would take a mediocre performance in excellent sound over an excellent performance in mediocre sound, but I never had to make that choice.

Ralph, that Walter '38 sound is horrible! Either due to the lack of good sound or the performance itself there is little color, little subtlety in that recording. :?

I agree with Michel, my main complaint is against historical recordings like that old Walter, you really need the nuances that the sonics of the old recordings can not provide IMO.
*****

Well, I disagree. Do you have the Dutton remastering? The EMI one isn't good.

And the historical significance of that recording grips me although I recognize others may not have that reaction.
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Post by mahlerfan » Sun May 15, 2005 10:13 pm

I have the EMI, I didn't bother with the Dutton because it's supposed to have severe dropouts, I don't see how that can be an improvement. :?

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Post by MACHINA weapon » Sun May 15, 2005 10:22 pm

herman wrote:
MACHINA weapon wrote:Commonsense dictates Bernstein. The VPO didn't warm up to Mahler when Maazel conduct so stay away.
Maazel's Mahler 4 with the VPO is very good, no matter whether the orchestra "warmed" to him or not. Neither you nor I were there, so that's all speculation and regurgitation of silly journalism.
Well, somebody remarked which BOX set is better. Only the Mahler 4th? Choosing Lenny over Maazel set is like choosing Sinopoli's Bruckner over Jochum/Karajan's Bruckner. I've tried listening to Maazel's Mahler 5th, 6th and gave up halfway through his 7th (snore.......).

mahlerfan, anyone who heard at least Horenstein's Mahler 3rd and 8th and find them bland don't deserve to call themselves Mahlerite. Maybe you don't agree with him being the best interpreters but I have the right to be elitist over this comment.

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Post by mahlerfan » Sun May 15, 2005 10:34 pm

I don't deserve to be called a Mahlerite? I think I mean that I don't deserve to be called a Horensteinite! :lol:

That is rude. You're telling me that my opinion doesn't count simply because it is in disagreement with yours. The Horenstein fanatics might be the most vocal, but I assure you that they do not represent the majority of Mahlerites.

His tempo choices are uninteresting, and I do not find him as revealing in detail as other conductors, which is why I find his recordings bland.

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Post by pizza » Sun May 15, 2005 11:19 pm

mahlerfan wrote: The Horenstein fanatics might be the most vocal, but I assure you that they do not represent the majority of Mahlerites.
What are the sources for your "assurances"? Many well-established Mahler critics, meaning those who have studied not only performances and recordings in depth but the music itself, agree that Horenstein's Mahler is among the finest examples ever produced. Of course they are "vocal" if by that you mean they write about it often.

The quoted statement is just plain silly.

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Post by mahlerfan » Sun May 15, 2005 11:24 pm

What I mean by vocal is that you get posters on message boards telling people that disagree with them that they are not true Maherlites (the one true Scotsman fallacy), or are saying that those that disagree with them are silly and wrong. As if somehow Horenstein's recordings are somehow objectively great. :roll:

I really don't care what you think, I have a good sense of general opinion from being involved in larger message boards, newsgroups forums and email lists. And I'm not going to waste time justifying myself to people who won't listen anyway, I'm out of this thread.

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Post by MACHINA weapon » Sun May 15, 2005 11:30 pm

mahlerfan wrote:I don't deserve to be called a Mahlerite? I think I mean that I don't deserve to be called a Horensteinite! :lol:

That is rude. You're telling me that my opinion doesn't count simply because it is in disagreement with yours. The Horenstein fanatics might be the most vocal, but I assure you that they do not represent the majority of Mahlerites.

His tempo choices are uninteresting, and I do not find him as revealing in detail as other conductors, which is why I find his recordings bland.
Well, that's what you get when you call somebody a <insert conductor's name here> nut. You have to bear in mind you're going to start an argument when you do that.

And I hear common criticism about Horenstein the same I would direct to Barbirolli or Klemperer. I find Horenstein at least more interesting than these conductor in terms of his manipulation of articulation, texture and control of dynamics. It's strange I read a review of David Hurwitz criticising Horenstein's Das Lied when Klemperer's recording is even more boring.

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Post by Michel » Sun May 15, 2005 11:55 pm

herman wrote:That in itself is an internet notion.
twit.

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Post by pizza » Mon May 16, 2005 12:22 am

MACHINA weapon wrote:
And I hear common criticism about Horenstein the same I would direct to Barbirolli or Klemperer. I find Horenstein at least more interesting than these conductor in terms of his manipulation of articulation, texture and control of dynamics. It's strange I read a review of David Hurwitz criticising Horenstein's Das Lied when Klemperer's recording is even more boring.
There is a difference in critical approach between analyzing a performance on its own merit and comparing it with others. I'm always suspicious of the latter as placing a rather superficial emphasis on the mere entertainment value of a particular recording as contrasted with a serious analysis of the music and what the conductor may have expected to reveal by it. A performance should stand or fall on its own merit or lack thereof. It shouldn't matter whether others have done it differently. There are many different ways in which to interpret musical works, especially those that are somewhat complex. It's been said that Mahler himself never conducted the same work twice in the same way.

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Post by MACHINA weapon » Mon May 16, 2005 12:42 am

pizza wrote:
MACHINA weapon wrote:
And I hear common criticism about Horenstein the same I would direct to Barbirolli or Klemperer. I find Horenstein at least more interesting than these conductor in terms of his manipulation of articulation, texture and control of dynamics. It's strange I read a review of David Hurwitz criticising Horenstein's Das Lied when Klemperer's recording is even more boring.
There is a difference in critical approach between analyzing a performance on its own merits and comparing it with others. I'm always suspicious of the latter as placing a rather superficial emphasis on the mere entertainment value of a particular recording as contrasted with a serious analysis of the music and what the conductor may have expected to reveal by it. A performance should stand or fall on its own. It shouldn't matter whether others have done it differently. There are many different ways in which to interpret musical works, especially those that are somewhat complex. It's been said that Mahler himself never conducted the same work twice in the same way.
The problem is commonplace by reviewers such as Hurwit performing "serious" analysis of music and then had some particular agenda against a conductor/performer or you can say, interpreter. You should try reading his reviews of Horenstein's Mahler, which goes to the borderline nasty. These reviewers disses that particular record and at least, leaves a hint which particular recording is better. That is where their double-standard annoys me the most. I do not understand why Klemperer's recording is better than Horenstein for exeption, his singers Wunderlich/Ludwig are better than Hodgson/Mitchinson. The textures and details of Horenstein recording is even more transparent than the Klemperer version. Do notice I stay away from criticising listeners who likes both Horenstein and Klemperer recordings. At least they don't start some inane argument which akins to "pot calling kettle black" as with these two recordings.

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Post by Ralph » Mon May 16, 2005 5:40 am

mahlerfan wrote:I have the EMI, I didn't bother with the Dutton because it's supposed to have severe dropouts, I don't see how that can be an improvement. :?
*****

I don't recall any dropouts-will play the disc tonight.
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Post by Michel » Tue May 17, 2005 4:52 am

I heard Bernstein's Mahler 1 with Amsterdam this morning. Not Impressed. Simply has no power, completely malnourished. Both Addabo and Kondrashin supercede it. I hope his Sony Recordings are better than this.

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Post by Ralph » Tue May 17, 2005 6:28 am

Michel wrote:I heard Bernstein's Mahler 1 with Amsterdam this morning. Not Impressed. Simply has no power, completely malnourished. Both Addabo and Kondrashin supercede it. I hope his Sony Recordings are better than this.
*****

But have you heard Bernstein in this great work (either the SONY or DG releases)?
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Michel
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Post by Michel » Tue May 17, 2005 10:01 am

Ralph wrote:
Michel wrote:I heard Bernstein's Mahler 1 with Amsterdam this morning. Not Impressed. Simply has no power, completely malnourished. Both Addabo and Kondrashin supercede it. I hope his Sony Recordings are better than this.
*****

But have you heard Bernstein in this great work (either the SONY or DG releases)?
His Amsterdam is DG.

Barry
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Post by Barry » Tue May 17, 2005 10:03 am

Bernstein absolutely owns the Mahler first for me. I love both of his recordings.

Nobody gets the feel of the third movement like he does.
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JackC
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Post by JackC » Tue May 17, 2005 10:28 am

Michel wrote:I heard Bernstein's Mahler 1 with Amsterdam this morning. Not Impressed. Simply has no power, completely malnourished. Both Addabo and Kondrashin supercede it. I hope his Sony Recordings are better than this.
????????????????

"No power"? "malnourished"??

Bernstein is not my favorite conductor, either in Mahler or anything else. His "heart on the sleave" and overtly emotional approach to music is often too much for my musical makeup. I feel that a little more restraint can often reveal even greater depths of emotion. But this music can bear his approach a lot better than some other music can.

Still while he may not be my favorite, I have his DG Mahler 1, and "no power" and "malnourished" are descriptions I simply cannot understand being applied to it. I think it is one of his best Mahler recordings.

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