Chailly Mahler Box Set

[pizza]

I heard Bernstein's Mahler 1 with Amsterdam this morning. Not Impressed. Simply has no power, completely malnourished. Both Addabo and Kondrashin supercede it. I hope his Sony Recordings are better than this.

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"No power"? "malnourished"??

Bernstein is not my favorite conductor, either in Mahler or anything else. His "heart on the sleave" and overtly emotional approach to music is often too much for my musical makeup. I feel that a little more restraint can often reveal even greater depths of emotion. But this music can bear his approach a lot better than some other music can.

Still while he may not be my favorite, I have his DG Mahler 1, and "no power" and "malnourished" are descriptions I simply cannot understand being applied to it. I think it is one of his best Mahler recordings.

I agree with your assessment of Bernstein as often too unrestrained in his approach and that generally works to Mahler's disadvantage. But there have been some exceptional performances he's recorded that are in my opinion unmatched; his Shostakovich 7/CSO is the first that comes to mind. Also, his earlier NYPO Rite of Spring is dynamite. Those are the kinds of works that can thrive when a conductor carefully throws all caution to the wind.

[Darryl]

Who has heard the recordings? What do you think? My initial impressions of the 8th was boring, but I loved the 9th and now think maybe I just needed to come around to Chailly's perspective.

I ordered the set today for 35 pounds from MDT. Give a good listen through the entire cycle that's been highly praised.

I suspect you've scarcely had time to receive, let alone listen to this set yet, but please provide some feedback ASAP (I didn't see anyone else who seemed particularly interested). Like you, I loved 9 (just spectacular), and was considering 3. When I saw 8 was already a cutout at a distributor I frequent, then it became clear the boxed set was the reason only the SACD versions were available individually from MDT. The 9 was only released last fall and now available in a boxed set -- a little unusual, don't you think?

[Darryl]

Mahlerfan, I just read the thread through and saw where you got p'd and left. I was hoping I could get some more input on this set with a view towards ordering it today. It's become something of a ritual for me, but if I order from MDT over the weekend the mail almost always arrives by the following weekend.

I know 9 is great, probably 3-5 too; and it appears 8 is okay, and 2 a bust? Please let me know if you would be so kind.

This just in (ouch): http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/boult/chailly.html

[RGM]

I don't care what anyone says, I like MTT's Berlioz "Fantastique", and thought his freedom therein boded well for his Mahler. So I got his Mahler Third, and think it is fine. I seem to be in a minority on this. Would appreciate hearing from anyone who doesn't like the Tilson Mahler Third (we're speaking of the San Francisco recording -- I haven't heard the other), who'd be willing to speak on the matter with specifics, so that I could judge if I'm overlooking something. Otherwise I'm liable to buy his Mahler Fourth, sound unheard, and the Eighth also when it appears.

[MartinPh]

I know 9 is great, probably 3-5 too; and it appears 8 is okay, and 2 a bust? Please let me know if you would be so kind.

This just in (ouch): http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/boult/chailly.html

Ouch indeed. A very, and IMHO unjustly, blunt appraisal. As if its a shame for a conductor to do what the score says, or to have truly excellent sonics at his disposal.

For me, Nr. 3 is the highpoint of Chailly's cycle: as far as I'm concerned, possibly the best version of the work ever recorded. Nrs. 1 and 5 are close runners-up, and 7 is very special too. These recordings stand comparison with the best ever made of these symphonies, and if I were allowed to have only one version of each, I wouldn't mind at all if they were Chailly's.

The rest is more of a mixed bag. Nr. 2 is simply too understated; it lacks excitement and drive, even though the playing is at times unbelievably beautiful. Nr. 4, on the contrary, lacks subtlety. Nr 6 is a bit four-square though not at all bad (I like it better than MTT's much praised version). Nr. 8 is miniaturized in the way that seems to be all the rage nowadays; beautiful, but far from heaven-storming. Anyway, since Rattle's disc appeared, who needs anything else? The Ninth, finally, is impressive, especially in the middle movements, but just a bit overly concerned with sheer beauty of sound. That one, indeed, lacks mystery.

I see that the box even includes Nr. 10 - a really great performance; I prefer it to this day to both Rattle's versions.

My two cents.

[DavidA]

I REALLY made a good-faith effort to like Chailly's Mahler. I really did. Sonics are spectacular. The Concertgebouw is their usual magnificent self. So, what's not to like?

Here's my gut reaction: Chailly's Mahler is like a beautiful photograph. Much to admire, but....it's just not truly alive. I DO like Bernstein's DG cycle in a few instances. His 9th with the Berlin (not his Concertgebouw reading) is very special....with permission from Herbert vonK. There's a frisson, an electricity there that's palpable. Likewise his 1st, and here I agree with the reviewer earlier and his remarks about the VERY Yiddish Frere Jacques inversion. Lenny made a specialty in his study of Mahler's battle over his religious heritage as played out in the symphonic vocabulary he employed, and the points made are far from being far-fetched. Could Bernstein just stretch things out to the breaking point? Sure...his DG Mahler 2nd is agogic in its slowness. His first go-round on Sony is much better, though with dated sonics now.

I've really enjoyed most of MTT's San Francisco cycle, including his latest installment, the 9th. I love his 6th, 4th, and a good bit of 1st and 3rd. I love all of von Karajan's Mahler save his 4th, where his wall-of-sound violins are just too massive for me. His 5th, 6th, and both 9ths--studio and live remake--are awesome. It's still fashionable in some quarters to run von Karajan, like Bernstein, into the ground. Some music they're just not meant to do, while other pieces just glow in their hands. Von Karajan came to Mahler late, but a little age and wisdom never hurts in this repetoire.

Another Mahlerite I've surely tried my best with is Horenstein, but I must confess that even as beautifully articulated as it is, his 4th on Emi/Classics for Pleasure is just PAINFULLY slow. Reviewers at Amazon and elsewhere just rhapsodize over Benjamin Zander's readings, but I'm not part of the parade.

So do I have an unqualified "rave" for any Mahler discs? There are two that I come back to again and again: von Karajan's validectory performance of the 9th, recorded live in 1982. And, from 10 years later, Salonen's reading of the 4th, with Barbara Hendricks. Salonen's reading of III. Ruhevoll is one of the most concentrated, profoundly beautiful things I've ever heard. Once it begins, I cannot leave my chair. I bite my lip, and the tears begin to roll. Sounds sappy, I know, but.....that's the way it is. The timing is a bit slow, but with playing with this level of commitment (I'm reminded of Giulini) more than sustains interest.

[herman]

Interesting posts, MartinPh and DavidA, thank you!

Martin, I know these are intangibles, but what's the difference between Bernstein's Berlin and Amsterdam 9th? I have the latter recording, more as a sort of souvenir of the actual performance.

David, how's Hendricks' singing on the Salonen 4th?

[RebLem]

I have not heard Chailly's set, but I do own and have listened to both Bernstein's, the Abbado, Sinopoli, Solti, and Tennstedt as well as individual recordings by many who have not recorded complete cycles.

To me, the best, most consistent cycle is likely to be one which has yet to be completed--Pierre Boulez's.

I also have a nominee for most unjustly neglected Mahler recording of all time--a wonderful recording of the Ninth by Karel Ancerl and the Czech Philharmonic.

[Ralph]

I've bought many of the Supraphon Ancerl series and I agree that Mahler's Ninth is one of the best in an excellent bunch of performances.

[MartinPh]

Herman, I'm not familiair with Bernstein's Berlin 9th. In general, I tend to be wary of live recordings. The end of the Amsterdam 9th is simply destroyed by lots of extraneous noise.

My favourite Ninth remains Zander's. Pesek is extremely impressive, too. I also have the non-digital vonK, but I find that a surprisingly uninvolving reading.

[herman]

Oh, I'm sorry, Martin. I see I mistakenly attributed those comments of DavidA's to you, about the various Bernstein Ninths.

[Darryl]

... For me, Nr. 3 is the highpoint of Chailly's cycle: as far as I'm concerned, possibly the best version of the work ever recorded. Nrs. 1 and 5 are close runners-up, and 7 is very special too. These recordings stand comparison with the best ever made of these symphonies, and if I were allowed to have only one version of each, I wouldn't mind at all if they were Chailly's ...

Thanks for the post Martin. I just heard 3 today (it's playing again now). You're right -- it's great. I'm still on the fence about buying this set. However, Ancerl's 9 is consistently praised, and I'm gonna get it.

[mahlerfan]

Daryll, you were right but I came back today since GMG is offline due to rowdy behavior. I guess if the plug is pulled on the other board, everyone will just come here!

I haven't finished listening to the cycle yet, the Haydn Piano Sonatas bargain set is occupying alot of my time. I can tell you right now that I think that 3,7,9 are fantastic. There were parts in the 6th that was a let down. I had 8 before and found it a little dull (though I want to relisten and see if I still think that). So far it's thumbs up on the Chailly set, but I'll post a little survey when I'm done. Articulating my thoughts per symphony.

[Michel]

Screw the cycle, I want to know about his 6th.