More on Marin Alsop (I like her)

[Ralph]

Where are all the women conductors?

Conducting has always been a male preserve, but now one woman is storming the podium. Marin Alsop tells Stuart Jeffries how she got there
Stuart Jeffries
Thursday June 2, 2005

Guardian

One day, Marin Alsop boarded an aircraft and looked into the cockpit. There were three women inside, and there was every likelihood that they would be flying the thing. "My first reaction was 'Uh-oh'." Alsop is not proud of her instinctive response. "Of course, it turned out to be the smoothest flight I'd ever been on. But my reaction was very thought-provoking. I guess I'm as much a victim of societal programming as the next person."

This honest admission is especially surprising from Alsop, one of the very few women conductors in the world and one who is proud to call herself a feminist. What a horrible shock to find you had unconsciously internalised a sexist agenda. "Well, yes. When I watch TV news now, I notice that we've become accustomed to seeing a man and a woman presenting. Twenty years ago it was just all men. If it's two women it doesn't seem quite right." Why? "It's all about comfort levels. It's not all specifically about capability or connection of knowledge. It's much more abstract."

Conducting, one might well think, is fundamentally a sado-mascochistic ritual involving either virile young male turks whipping orchestras into frenzies with tapering batons of birch and maple, or sage old men waving their penis substitutes in front of a bunch of instrument-playing stiffs in irksome collars, before jetting to the other side of the world to do exactly the same thing in another cultural capital. Viewed thus, conducting is an unsuitable job for a woman, particularly one who, like this 48-year-old New Yorker, has childcare responsibilities.

Yet Alsop has made a name for herself in this man's world. The first CD in a projected Brahms symphony cycle that she released with the London Philharmonic earlier this year led the Guardian to pronounce that she was "well on her way to becoming one of the best Brahms interpreters". Last week, she won a Classical Brit (admittedly as best female artist) for her recordings of John Adams, Samuel Barber and Philip Glass. In 2003, she was voted Gramophone's artist of the year and also won the Royal Philharmonic Society's conductor award. She has been principal conductor of the Bournemouth Symphony, Britain's oldest orchestra, since 2002, reviving its artistic reputation after a disastrous period, and attempting to radicalise the tastes of what was regarded as a conservative audience with new music. She is conductor laureate of the Colorado Symphony and guest conducts for many of the world's leading orchestras. On Sunday, this protege of Leonard Bernstein will conduct the LSO in a performance of his Mass at the Barbican. It is a fine CV, even if the post of principal conductor at any of those top orchestras still eludes her.

But she has hardly any female peers. True, there is Simone Young, music director of Opera Australia. Yes, there is Andrea Quinn, music director of New York City Ballet. Ten years ago there used to be Sian Edwards at the English National Opera, until she abruptly left for "internal reasons". But very few women, living or dead, have taken to the podium. Back in the 1870s, there was apparently a woman conductor of the great Dutch orchestra, the Concertgebouw, about whom it would be interesting to know more. Next year, Alsop will guest conduct for that Amsterdam orchestra - more than a century after the last woman raised a baton there.

Does she not find this depressing? "I assumed 20 years ago when I got into the profession and looked around that there would be an influx of women on to the podium. It never happened." Yet, in that period, women have hardly been unobtrusive as instrumentalists. Think, for instance, of all the great women pianists - Martha Argerich, Mitsuko Uchida, Myra Hess, Moura Lympany and Annie Fischer. There is no such roll call of honour for women conductors.

The result, then, is that Alsop has to bear the burden of being both an exemplar to young women conductors and one who incessantly has to explain why there are few like her around. It is, one might think, a royal pain. "It's a question I am asked a lot." And what is the answer? Why are there so few women conductors? "It's a chicken and egg question. Maybe there aren't enough talented women conductors because there have never been many women conductors." She particularly finds one question on this subject especially daft. "When people ask me, 'What's it like to be a woman conductor?' I have no perspective. I've always been a woman conductor. I have never been, say, a lizard conductor."

Doesn't she get exasperated with having to answer the same questions? "I look forward to the time, a generation down the line, when things have changed so that it's no longer an issue." But will that happen? As she has previously said, rather optimistically, "When I teach it's generally a 50/50 ratio of men to women and I don't think women hesitate as much to consider a career as a conductor these days ... But it would be naive not to notice that there are no women music directors of any major orchestras in the world."

She was pleased when appointed as principal conductor of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra four years ago that the British media did not make much of the fact she was that rare thing, a baton-waving woman. "They would just have one sentence. It wasn't a huge deal." Why do you think that is? "Possibly because of Margaret Thatcher. It's very different in the US, especially in the classical music world, which is very conservative. It's a huge deal there to be a woman conductor. As a society we are not accustomed to seeing women in the highest offices."

When will Alsop rise to the highest offices? Some say that she took the Bournemouth job to build a British power base from which she would become principal conductor of one of London's leading orchestras. Last year she was tipped by the Los Angeles Times to become the principal conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. She denies she has such a grand plan, pointing out that she has just renewed her Bournemouth commitment for two more years.

Alsop started learning the piano at two and the violin at five, but her real musical epiphany came when, aged nine, her father took her to see Bernstein conduct a Young Person's Concert in New York. "He was jumping around and talking to the audi ence. He was breaking all these rules. It was like he was in Technicolor, it was so captivating. I said: 'I'm going to do that' and then it took 30 years, but I did. I knew I wanted to do it and I never changed my mind." Her parents, Ruth and LaMar Alsop were professional musicians - she a cellist and he a violinist and concertmaster for the NYC Ballet orchestra. Were they encouraging? "Yes. There was absolutely no gender division in my family. My mother played the cello, for instance." She thinks for a second. "But dad used to carry it for her. They never thought it was a bad idea nor did I think about the woman issue until I had been conducting for a while."

But Alsop says she has reflected since on the gestures that she makes as a conductor in order to undermine her musicians' sexist prejudices. "The hardest thing for me is always to get a big sound from the orchestra without being very demanding or apologising. As a woman, if you're too aggressive people think, 'She's so overpowering. What's she on us for?'. But if a man does the same gesture, it's regarded as strong and virile." To show me what she means she sticks out an upturned fist towards me and then uncurls her fingers. "If you're too strong, the orchestra responds the same way. If you push them too hard, the sound tightens up. I have worked really hard to make my gestures less threatening. Also, when you're delicate, as a woman sometimes you're interpreted as being lightweight. Men don't get that."

At the choral rehearsal for the Bernstein Mass I attend at St Luke's, the LSO's London rehearsal space, her gestures do not seem to be misinterpreted. She is brisk but warm, charming to the small children in the choir and helpfully communicative to everybody else. She says she models herself somewhat on Simon Rattle, whom she regards as a great communicator (she is renowned for her pre-concert talks, where she is, like him, keen to contextualise new music for audiences often unfamiliar with such work).

This is the second rehearsal of the day. She flew in from Denver (nine hours to Heathrow) and went straight into rehearsal. Her hour-long break, punctuated by slugs of Diet Coke, was this interview. Now she is back putting the choir through the Mass's Kyrie Eleison.

She says she flies around the world seven times in a year. "Success equals hyperactivity in this industry. Jet transportation has made this life possible; conductors wouldn't choose it. It's particularly hard on women who have children. I have a son and I want to stay with him at home in Denver. So I try not to be away from home for more than two weeks." But there is a counterveiling impulse - her love for music. "I'm just trying to follow the passion for music. I try to do what feels thrilling in every dimension of my life." She realises this sounds a bit implausible and pretentious, so adds: "Except when I do my laundry."

[Teresa B]

Hi Ralph,

Thanks for posting this--I find I like Maestra Alsop too, though I have yet to hear her conduct. I like her style!

It's an uphill road for women conductors, for all the reasons she cites. We have a woman resident conductor here in Tampa, (The Florida Orchestra) Susan Haig. She's excellent.

All the best, Teresa

[Ralph]

Hi Ralph,

Thanks for posting this--I find I like Maestra Alsop too, though I have yet to hear her conduct. I like her style!

It's an uphill road for women conductors, for all the reasons she cites. We have a woman resident conductor here in Tampa, (The Florida Orchestra) Susan Haig. She's excellent.

All the best, Teresa

*****

Hi Teresa,

I've started a number of threads in the past on women in classical music and opera and how few ever conduct major orchestras or appear in important opera houses. There definitely is a glass ceiling and a pretty tough one too.

One problem is that American orchestras want European music directors and except for England there are relatively few women conducting in Europe other than in some of the former Soviet satellites.

And fundraising is a sine qua non for boards here that are dominated by men.

The times are changing but hardly fast enough.

[Fugu]

Ralph,

I didn't think you were so impressed with her Brahms 1, though. At least it sounded like it from your first impressions. Changed your mind?

[Ralph]

Ralph,

I didn't think you were so impressed with her Brahms 1, though. At least it sounded like it from your first impressions. Changed your mind?

*****

No, it's a fine but not great performance. But I don't judge any conductor based on a particular recording or concert. Overall I am impressed with a number of her CDs and I think her future is getting brighter.

[Teresa B]

There was an interesting section in the book "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell about how musicians are hired by major orchestras. Maybe some of you guys are aware of this, but I was not.

They now do auditions in a "screened" manner just so they avoid the automatic bias against women musicians. It turned out that when the auditions were open and the judges could see the musician, they chose men far more often than women. After they switched to screened auditions, the choices ended up about 50:50.

(Hard to do that with conductors, though...)

All the best, Teresa

[Ralph]

There was an interesting section in the book "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell about how musicians are hired by major orchestras. Maybe some of you guys are aware of this, but I was not.

They now do auditions in a "screened" manner just so they avoid the automatic bias against women musicians. It turned out that when the auditions were open and the judges could see the musician, they chose men far more often than women. After they switched to screened auditions, the choices ended up about 50:50.

(Hard to do that with conductors, though...)

All the best, Teresa

*****

It isn't done with conductors.

Blind auditions have been used for quite a while now and women are instructed to wear running shoes or sneakers so that the tell-tale tap of heels doesn't give their gender away.

[jserraglio]

I really liked the Barber recordings she made for Naxos, also the Bernstein Chicester Psalms, and the in-concert DVD/PBS broadcast of Candide where I could see her conduct. I also found her name listed in the orchestra on the great 1970's RCA OC recording of Sweeney Todd.

Why doesn't the New York Phil sign her up when Maazel retires? Or the Chicago Symphony, to succeed Barenboim?

[Ralph]

I really liked the Barber recordings she made for Naxos, also the Bernstein Chicester Psalms, and the in-concert DVD/PBS broadcast of Candide where I could see her conduct. I also found her name listed in the orchestra on the great 1970's RCA OC recording of Sweeney Todd.

Why doesn't the New York Phil sign her up when Maazel retires? Or the Chicago Symphony, to succeed Barenboim?

*****

There are a number of reasons:

1) She's female and that's still a negative with big orchestras.

2) She's American " " " " " " " "

3) She won't bring a major label to the Philharmonic.

4) She has no track record for big time fundraising.

Continue repeating 1 through 4 and the picture is clear.

[jserraglio]

Adding a few more "negatives"....

5. If she conducted a lot of music by American composers, she might call into question the cultural bonafides of any top-ranking American orchestra.

6. She records for a minor label that puts out too many recordings, sells too many of them, at too cheap a price, to too many young people.

7. She is hardly a safe bet. Another quirky choice like Bernstein, Rodzinski, Martinon, Mitropoulos, Boulez? Who needs it? Kapellmeisters are thick on the ground.

[Teresa B]

Adding a few more "negatives"....

6. She records for a minor label that puts out too many recordings, sells too many of them, at too cheap a price, to too many young people.

Hey, how is this "negative?" Seems to me it's a good thing, but I dunno. I'm just an ignoramus when it comes to the politics of symphony orchestras.

Teresa

[Ralph]

Adding a few more "negatives"....

6. She records for a minor label that puts out too many recordings, sells too many of them, at too cheap a price, to too many young people.

Hey, how is this "negative?" Seems to me it's a good thing, but I dunno. I'm just an ignoramus when it comes to the politics of symphony orchestras.

Teresa

*****

No, you're not an ignoramus. You simply can't really understand the rarified air of pseudo-High Society and the devotion its members have to preserving a rapidly untenable orchestral world. And that includes recognizing a talented relatively young woman who on the podium would attract more of the young than a kappellmeister can.

[Diogenes]

Marin Alsop was a guest on BBC4 television tonight, discussing Beethoven symphonies 1-3, as introduction to each of the symphonies' broadcast from the BBC television archives.

She was lovely. And full of interesting insights and critical appraise.

She described (the 80 year old) Klemperer conducting the 2nd, as "morose".



She'll be back to discuss Symphonies 4-6 next week

[Ralph]

Marin Alsop was a guest on BBC4 television tonight, discussing Beethoven symphonies 1-3, as introduction to each of the symphonies' broadcast from the BBC television archives.

She was lovely. And full of interesting insights and critical appraise.

She described (the 80 year old) Klemperer conducting the 2nd, as "morose".



She'll be back to discuss Symphonies 4-6 next week

*****

Klemperer "morose?" Interesting.

[Diogenes]

Marin Alsop was profiled in the Sunday Times today (June 5), in an interview article headlined "The Iron Willed Lady".

Website access to this is subscriber only; am I allowed to reproduce it here, with appropriate credits?

[Ralph]

Marin Alsop was profiled in the Sunday Times today (June 5), in an interview article headlined "The Iron Willed Lady".

Website access to this is subscriber only; am I allowed to reproduce it here, with appropriate credits?

*****

We've argued that here ad nauseum. Each poster makes his own choices.

[Ralph]

Well, here it is.

*****

June 05, 2005

Music: The iron-willed lady
Hugh Canning

Female conductors — I’m talking classical music rather than buses — are always big news, mainly because of their rarity value. Few, however, have made such significant inroads into the predominantly male preserve of the great symphonic orchestras as the American Marin Alsop, the principal conductor of the Bournemouth Symphony and a welcome guest with two of the leading London bands, the LSO and LPO. She has just been named female artist of the year in the Classical Brit Awards, which follows the acclaim she received in 2003 when she was named Gramophone magazine’s artist of the year and took the Royal Philharmonic Society’s conductor award.

Alsop is rare among female conductors in that she not only gets engagements with some of the most high-profile US orchestras, renowned for their virtuosity and conservatism, but invariably, she is invited back. The same goes for the London Symphony Orchestra. Tonight, she will be on the podium when the LSO honours its former president and Alsop’s erstwhile conducting teacher, Leonard Bernstein, with a rare performance of his semi-theatrical Mass, in memoriam John F Kennedy.

After a recent performance with the Bournemouth SO at Symphony Hall, Birmingham, I asked Alsop what made her want to become a conductor. “Hah!” she exclaims, as if the question were a surprise, rather than the one she’s always asked. “Well, my parents were both professional musicians. By the time I was seven, they were playing in the New York City Ballet orchestra. So it was pretty inevitable I would be a musician. They wanted a pianist to make up a piano trio. I was tortured into playing piano from age two until six, then they tricked me into playing the violin and I loved that.”

Alsop studied at New York’s famous Juilliard School of Music, and it was in that great symphonic city that she was inspired to become a conductor: “When I was nine, my father took me to see one of Lennie’s young people’s concerts, and that was it. From that moment, I wanted to conduct.”

By “Lennie”, of course, she means Bernstein, perhaps the greatest influence on American musicians during the second half of the 20th century. As well as studying conducting with him, Alsop was his musical assistant at Tanglewood, the most prestigious and venerable of the USA’s summer music festivals, and she has taken it upon herself to champion his symphonic works. Her advocacy of such rare, controversial works as Mass is testimony to her conviction that Bernstein was a great and innovative classical composer, as well as the author of such popular works as West Side Story and Candide.

In teaching her, Bernstein clearly had no qualms about her gender, but his attitude was by no means universal: “When I said I wanted to conduct, the reaction of my male violin teacher at Juilliard was, ‘You’re much too young and you’re a girl, and girls don’t do that,’ which was pretty horrifying to me. My mother was outraged and my father went out and bought me a present to cheer me up: a wooden box filled with batons.”

Alsop’s career has been gradual rather than meteoric, but she has demonstrated remarkable staying power. Prior to her Bournemouth appointment three years ago, she spent 10 years at the helm of the Colorado Symphony Orchestra, a period during which she made her first appearances with the big American bands and was a regular invitee to Simon Rattle’s City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. She thinks her success is partly a matter of attitude — a long time ago, she says, she stopped worrying about prejudices against women on the podium.

“I don’t give it too much thought because I don’t think interpretation is gender-related, and attitudes are generally changing. It’s nice for me to be the first woman to conduct, say, the Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam in more than 100 years, which I will do soon. In fact, they put out a press release to say I would be the first, but they had to retract that when it emerged that a Dutch woman had conducted them in the 1880s. It ’s time a woman did again, I think.”

She thinks the fact that Britain had Margaret Thatcher as prime minister has helped break down prejudice against women occupying positions of power in this country: “I’m convinced my success is related to the fact that the idea of a woman aspiring to the highest echelons of power is not foreign here.” That’s an unusual accolade for the former prime minister from a musician working in the UK, but Alsop is an altogether out-of-the-ordinary musician. Women conductors tend to come and go — or get pigeonholed and sidelined — but she looks as if she’s here to stay. Lucky Bournemouth orchestra and Poole music-lovers.

[MahlerSnob]

I hate to be the dissenting voice in this thread, but I've heard virtually nothing but negative comments from people who have played under her or worked with her. I have a few friends who were students of Colorado Symphony players and one friend who was a member of the orchestra while Alsop was there, and none of them liked her very much. Her attitude towards the orchestra was summed up as either: "Sounds great, I'll see you at the concert" or "Sounds terrible, I'll see you at the concert." My former conducting teacher also worked with her at an ASOL workshop and didn't seem to like her much as a teacher.
For what it's worth I did like the Candide production she conducted with the NY Phil a few months ago, however I was more impressed with the actors and the overall production than with what she did with it musically.

Anyway... just my thoughts.

[Ralph]

[quote="MahlerSnob"]I hate to be the dissenting voice in this thread, but I've heard virtually nothing but negative comments from people who have played under her or worked with her. I have a few friends who were students of Colorado Symphony players and one friend who was a member of the orchestra while Alsop was there, and none of them liked her very much. Her attitude towards the orchestra was summed up as either: "Sounds great, I'll see you at the concert" or "Sounds terrible, I'll see you at the concert." My former conducting teacher also worked with her at an ASOL workshop and didn't seem to like her much as a teacher.
For what it's worth I did like the Candide production she conducted with the NY Phil a few months ago, however I was more impressed with the actors and the overall production than with what she did with it musically.

Anyway... just my thoughts.[/quote

*****

Thanks for them. I attended that "Candide" and it was pure fun. Everyone on the stage did their best and it's not fair to judge Alsop based on a production that probably had little rehearsal time.

I would like to see her conduct the Philharmonic in some heavy pieces, e.g., Bruckner, Mahler or Dittersdorf.

[MahlerSnob]

I would like to see her conduct the Philharmonic in some heavy pieces, e.g., Bruckner, Mahler or Dittersdorf.

As would I. I've heard her getting a lot of praise, but I've never seen her do any of the big, standard rep. I'm all for new music, and she seems to be doing a terrific job at Cabrillo (at least in terms of publicizing the festival and bringing in big name composers), but it seems she doesn't do much of the old rep.

[Werner]

I did hear her in Denver in a standard symphonic program some years ago. I'm sorry I can't recall the orchestral portion. I do remember Menachem Pressler was the soloist - but I remember being well impressed by the evening's program.

[jserraglio]

Link to Alsop's repertoire on her Website. It's too long to post here even though it only goes up to 2001 (no Brahms symphonies listed in 2001).

Includes Mahler Symphonies 1,2,4,5,6.

http://www.marinalsop.com/repertoire.html

[jserraglio]

Sorry,

all four Brahms symphonies are listed, along with 4 other substantial works by him.

[Michael]

I think that I posted about her in another thread. All I can say is that I have heard her conduct much of the standard rep with her orchestra in Bournmouth and it has been dire. The orchestra can play well.. with their last chief (Kreizberg) they did some spectacular things.
She often works with the LPO and I can't repeat what my ex-collegues say about her
Nowt to do with gender... I've had the honour to work with many fine women (all be it not waggling a stick) but she simply IMO doesn't inspire the band in front of her to set the music alight. Ok.. with the standard rep it's difficult but still there are conductors doing great things with Beethoven Symphonies... Abbado, Rattle, going back a bit Celibidache was extraordinary and transendental; I am thinking particuarly about his Pastoral symph with Munich and now Harencourt and Norrington bring something special to this music. I have no pre-conceived idea about how a work should sound and I hate to get used to a specific interpretation which is why I rarely listen to my cds... much prefer the radio and live concerts. Even Noseda and the BBC Phil gave a performance of Beet 1 yesterday that was delightful.. but this lady.. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I have been told that in Russia there are some fine female conductors but I have yet to come across one in the west. Jane Glover was very much to the fore for a while back in Blighty but hell she was bad... her greatest performance was sucking and blowing a hoover in a Hoffnung concert that I participated in... a couple other of Bernstein's pupils have carved various bands that I have earnt a crust in.. I remember a ghastly Dvorak 7...this particular lady came dreadfully unstuck and we could not sustain her and an even worse Brahms/Schonberg pno qtet with an English lass .. (orch version) that simply died a death... a very long and painful one after a few measures... maybe we should start a new thread about women conductors and why they are so poor...
Come to think of it how may black conductors do we have or indeed disabled ones... James DePriest comes to mind on both counts... another Bernstein pupil.... absolutely appalling BTW
I firmly believe that an artist... or anyone else for that matter should be evaluated on their own merits... I wont even go into what happened to the male candidates in the British Labour Party in the elections in the mid 90s
I am rambling and my keyboard wont let me punctuate properly... have also just been to a frightful performance of Don Carlos that I shelled out a small fortune for.... forgive me. (The gin is also doing it-s stuff )