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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:17 pm 
Hi all, I'm new here and I have a problem:

Some time ago (somewhere in june), the BBC offered the nine Beethoven symphonies for download on their website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/beethoven/downloads.shtml).
I downloaded them at the time, but I recently found out two of these downloads were incomplete/corrupted :(
(I had exams at the time I downloaded them, so I just put them in my main playlist - that's why I didn't notice this any earlier)

Does anybody know where I can still get these symphonies? It's the second and third symphonies that are incomplete, and I would really like to have them in full...

Thanks,
brain99


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:27 pm 
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It's called a box set. Go to the store and buy them like you should. Support the real thing and don't hurt the industry by downloading.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:37 pm 
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Hey, Brain. That was a one-time experiment to see if downloading classical music was just a wild-ass brain cramp or if downloading would be the wave of the future for classical record companies to market their products. It was a enormously successful effort, beyond the producers wildest imagination, but I believe those versions are no longer available for download (the dreaded NLA no collector can see calmly).

The syms are wildly popular in many versions. You can get them from most any cd store brick and mortar or online. You don't have to buy the entire set of 9. Many many versions are available of just the two you seek. Not as downloads, but if you have the computer equipment you can load them on your ipod or whatever.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:57 pm 
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Right on, Corlyss!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:21 pm 
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Werner wrote:
Right on, Corlyss!


People that download hurt the industry.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:34 pm 
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12tone wrote:
Werner wrote:
Right on, Corlyss!


People that download hurt the industry.


*****

That's clearly not the case here where thousands downloaded performances they probably wouldn't have bought.

The classical music recording industry has been in trouble for a long time and downloading has nothing to do with it. High prices and the same works coming out with every new "star" conductor do their part. It's not for nothing that NAXOS is now the world's leading label in terms of sales and the continued resurrection of Arte Nova, another high quality budget label, is important.

Every industry dependent on consumers with many choices has to have strategies that attract newcomers. There is so much classical music on the Web, easily recordable or downloadable, that the BBC's venture is small in comparison. But I bet many who downloaded the Beethoven cycle will want different full sets.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:12 am 
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Ralph wrote:
12tone wrote:
Werner wrote:
Right on, Corlyss!


People that download hurt the industry.


*****

That's clearly not the case here where thousands downloaded performances they probably wouldn't have bought.

The classical music recording industry has been in trouble for a long time and downloading has nothing to do with it. High prices and the same works coming out with every new "star" conductor do their part. It's not for nothing that NAXOS is now the world's leading label in terms of sales and the continued resurrection of Arte Nova, another high quality budget label, is important.

Every industry dependent on consumers with many choices has to have strategies that attract newcomers. There is so much classical music on the Web, easily recordable or downloadable, that the BBC's venture is small in comparison. But I bet many who downloaded the Beethoven cycle will want different full sets.


Sheesh, I was ignoring this thread on the basis of assumptions, and now I discover that it took till the Ralph-point for it to be revealed that in fact the BBC gloried in that moment. It was the biggest download triumph in history, it violated no copyright law, and guess what, folks, it was not the Beatles.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:19 am 
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12tone wrote:
Werner wrote:
Right on, Corlyss!


People that download hurt the industry.


:?: How do you figure the BBC standing for an experiement to demonstrate that downloading would attract a whole new audience for the record companies is "hurting the industry?" The industry was 100% behind this experiment. The industry wants to know if it is a viable way for them to market and distribute classical music, given the success of downloading in the pop world, as in "Why fight the wave of the future? Why not figure out how to use it to our advantage?"

You're relatively new here, 12tone, so you missed most of the posts on the subject at hand, i.e., the Beethoven Experience on BBC 3 in June. If you search on "download" you will find several articles on this experiement, its origin, and its reception in the music/technological world. All of them were enthusiastic. None of them criticized the effort as harmful to the industry.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:58 am 
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12tone wrote:
Werner wrote:
Right on, Corlyss!


People that download hurt the industry.


Not necessarily. I download music yet still buy the CDs. It's nice to be able to hear a work/composer before going out and throwing away money on it, so it encourages me to buy CDs where I wouldn't have taken the risk otherwise.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:34 am 
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Twelvetone is correct in saying downloading has hurt the industry. You have to live in a complete and total alternative universe to deny this.

The fact that the industry is now experimenting with ways of joining the download world, because it couldn't beat it, doesn't change the fact that the major labels have suffered a lot because of downloading.

The profits on the rock and pop side of the business (where the downloading occurs most, obviously) are not sufficient anymore to cushion the classical end.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:31 am 
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herman wrote:
Twelvetone is correct in saying downloading has hurt the industry. You have to live in a complete and total alternative universe to deny this.

The fact that the industry is now experimenting with ways of joining the download world, because it couldn't beat it, doesn't change the fact that the major labels have suffered a lot because of downloading.

The profits on the rock and pop side of the business (where the downloading occurs most, obviously) are not sufficient anymore to cushion the classical end.


Jee, I'll just shoot myself the day when the "music" insdustry declares that it can no longer go on on the basis of pop and rock profits.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:33 am 
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Just before HMV closed down its last New York store I spoke with the manager whom I had gotten to know over a period of years. He told me that downloading of classical music wasn't even a blip on the company's radar screen and never would be. Downloading of tunes that young people wanted wiped out a huge percentage of their expected sales.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:59 am 
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Although I disagree with downloading, not in this case. These recordings from the Proms were given to us free by the BBC as part of the Noseda/BBC Phil series. The others will become avaiable when complete.

These recordings are a Free download of BBC material, once again GIVEN FREE by the BBC.

Just the same as putting them on their free monthly discs as part of their magazine...what's the problem with this? For this instance alone.

No argument there, guess you all didn't know that did you :shock: or maybe you did?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:20 am 
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jbuck919 wrote:
Jee, I'll just shoot myself the day when the "music" insdustry declares that it can no longer go on on the basis of pop and rock profits.


After all the arguments we've had about gun control, I'm kinda skeptical. I think you'll go for a quieter and cleaner method, say, poison. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:21 am 
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Ralph wrote:
Just before HMV closed down its last New York store I spoke with the manager whom I had gotten to know over a period of years.


Another Dittersdorf fan? :)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:58 am 
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Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:
Just before HMV closed down its last New York store I spoke with the manager whom I had gotten to know over a period of years.


Another Dittersdorf fan? :)


*****

A closeted Dittersdorfian to be sure. We have a number here in Gotham.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:52 pm 
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Corlyss_D wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Jee, I'll just shoot myself the day when the "music" insdustry declares that it can no longer go on on the basis of pop and rock profits.


After all the arguments we've had about gun control, I'm kinda skeptical. I think you'll go for a quieter and cleaner method, say, poison. :wink:


:!: You see after all what an alarming evil general gun availability can be.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:29 pm 
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Corlyss_D wrote:
"Why fight the wave of the future? Why not figure out how to use it to our advantage?"


Exactly! Why not figure out how to use synthesizers to improve music?

Beethoven downloads are the proof that people are much more willing to listen to non-po&rock music than many think, but they are bothered with the conservativism of the scene.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:40 pm 
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Dalibor wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
"Why fight the wave of the future? Why not figure out how to use it to our advantage?"


Exactly! Why not figure out how to use synthesizers to improve music?

Beethoven downloads are the proof that people are much more willing to listen to non-po&rock music than many think, but they are bothered with the conservativism of the scene.


They are bothered with the fact that Beethoven is a demigod of art, not a being of a mortal order really, who commands our entire attention, while the Beatles are like going to the bathroom upon waking up in the morning.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:48 pm 
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But in Beethoven's time, there was much more enthusiasm for his music than nowadays.

You must accpet the fact that nothing lasts forever. What was interesting 200 years ago, can not stay interesting in the same measure today. The fact that people are still listening essentialy the same versions of Beethovens works would probably surprise himself. I think that the world of classical music was never so conservative as today, so against anything that has to do with contemporary spirit. It is a bit sad thing to love music in the world today... I fear that his download will not substantialy change anything. Changes have to happen inside the classical scene - in musical schools before all. There is the place to make changes, not the market.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:58 pm 
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"How shall my art be known on Alpha Centauri?"

Ludwig van Beethoven

And Mozart:

"You think that composing is easy for me. You cannot know what pangs of hell I go through to achieve what I do.

And Bach:

"I worked hard. Anyone who works equally hard will achieve as much."

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:10 pm 
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jbuck919 wrote:
"How shall my art be known on Alpha Centauri?"

Ludwig van Beethoven

And Mozart:

"You think that composing is easy for me. You cannot know what pangs of hell I go through to achieve what I do.

And Bach:

"I worked hard. Anyone who works equally hard will achieve as much."


Those are the three best composers if you ask me, despite after them there was more orchestral color and experiment.
But, they are not semi-gods. Bach is the closest at my opinion, his music is so utterly logical. Mozart's slightly less. And Beethoven... he was so original, but he made mistakes. His ambitious symhonies have clumsy and boring parts. I don't buy that semi-god story - I don't believe in perfecion anyway.

And Beatless made some very nice tunes, mind you. It's not that I listen to them, but I respect them. I repsect everything that is interesting in music. Every good melody is an important contribution to music for me. I don't divide between this or that type of music - music is music, as long as it is not something else (words, drugs, parties and dance, showmanship etc.)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:14 pm 
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Dalibor wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
"How shall my art be known on Alpha Centauri?"

Ludwig van Beethoven

And Mozart:

"You think that composing is easy for me. You cannot know what pangs of hell I go through to achieve what I do.

And Bach:

"I worked hard. Anyone who works equally hard will achieve as much."


Those are the three best composers if you ask me, despite after them there was more orchestral color and experiment.


I'm sure they would be honored by your kind opinion.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:53 pm 
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Corlyss_D wrote:
12tone wrote:
Werner wrote:
Right on, Corlyss!


People that download hurt the industry.


:?: How do you figure the BBC standing for an experiement to demonstrate that downloading would attract a whole new audience for the record companies is "hurting the industry?"


How do I figure? Well it sure wouldn't attract diehard classical fans that know better than to download.

So what group were targeted? The group were people who wouldn't buy the symphonies in the first place!

Take a lemonade stand example. We have a kid selling lemonade for 50c. Some guy walks buy (he's really cheep). Next day the kid is selling it for free. The guy buys it.

If people have to put out any effort for something they might not go for it...if it's free, well hey! It's free! Why the world not. Do they like classical enough to buy it? No. Obviously not! Otherwise they would have BOUGHT the material instead of downloading.

That dumb experiement proved nothing but calculate how many people would rather download than buy.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:04 pm 
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jbuck919 wrote:
I'm sure they would be honored by your kind opinion.


What is wrong with you, mister 919?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:06 pm 
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jbuck919 wrote:
I'm sure they would be honored by your kind opinion.


Ofcourse they would. That is what they lived for - to be recognised. By everyone.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:20 pm 
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Dalibor wrote:
His ambitious symhonies have clumsy and boring parts.


I've been saying that for years too.

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Dalibor wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
I'm sure they would be honored by your kind opinion.


What is wrong with you, mister 919?


There is nothing wrong with me that would not be cured by living in a time that was previous to a handful of composers who came as great to godhood as any member of the human species ever managed. In case you have not noticed it, we are not supposed to modify our opinions about the great composers in the name of some foolish hope of future amelioration of art. We are supposed to honor what we are privileged to have as incomparably great in the first place.

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