Not so beginner questions (lots of questions, long post)

[Stonebraker]

I think a few months ago I had a thread called beginner quesitons... so Now i'm at the next stop, not yet intermediate, but hopefully a little more than a beginer.

So to start, how about a little anecdote? So I'm at school over the summer talking to our resident prof. of musicology, when it comes up I play piano, and he would like to learn. So we start talking about different technique books, and he asks me which I like. Well of course i reply with Hanon, and that I recently picked up a book by Sezerni (Read: Czerny).

This happens often to me. So while I've learned some basic pronunciations of composers and conductors (Hair-burt fun Car-ah-yahn?), theres a multitude I don't know. Shoot, I mean Bruno Walter seems easy enough. But It sounds like he's german, so is it Valter or Walter? I'll throw out a few names I'm curious about, but if you guys could just help me out with commonly mispronounced names, it would be appreciated.

Neeme Jarvi
Leopold Stokowski
Leos Janacek
Bedrich Smetana
Dvorak (If you can't tell, I have a hard time with Czech names)
Joeseph Jaochim (and who the hell is this guy? I see his name pop up constantly when I read)
Semyon Bychov

As you can see, I've compiled a few names of people from all over, and conductors and composers of all times. Any help with these, and any other commonly mispronouced names would be appreciated; if possible, I'd like to be even more prententious than I already am (probably not possible).

The second part of these beginner questions are for those in the who've studied the theory and academics of music extensively. I would just like a recommendation of books/exercises/activities that, in general, improve my knowledge of music. Right now I'm working out of the general textbooks, Piston and Steinke for theory, Blatter and Alder for orchestration, Kraft for ear training, and Read for notation. Any other essentials I should be studying? I expect less feedback on this issue, but it may be even more important.

The third part is related to conducting. Right now, I'm having an absolute blast score-reading and armchair conducting. I'm worried tohugh, without direction, I may pick up bad habits that will be hard to break when I begin lessons in conducting. Any advice for me, or materials I should check out?

Fourth, I've gone a long time without listening to Wagner. I figure once I open those floodgates, I'm going to be busy for a while. Where should I start with Wagner?

Lastly, I have trouble appreciating any music other than orchesetral music. Solo piano works, string quartets, and chamber works all do not seem to grab and hold my attention in the same way that any work utilizing an orchestra of any size does. Any advice?

I'm sure as soon as I post this thread, 15 other questions will pop into my head, but for now this will do. I know this thread is all about ME ME ME, but hopefully if anyone responds, this thread will provide a few snippets of useful information to people other than myself. Also, if there's any advice about music/life in general you'd like to throw in, go right ahead. I suppose that's enough for now.

[Heck148]

The third part is related to conducting. Right now, I'm having an absolute blast score-reading and armchair conducting. I'm worried tohugh, without direction, I may pick up bad habits that will be hard to break when I begin lessons in conducting. Any advice for me, or materials I should check out?

any conducting manual will get you going on the basics. it's hard to imagine that you'd develop any habits so bad that they would be irremediable.

the basic rules, the beat patterns, are quite simple - the first beat of the measure - the downbeat - is suprpringly enough - down!! straight down. the last beat of the measure is up, so the set up the following downbeat...
a 3/4 pattern will generally describe something like a right triangle. it needn't be exact. it's much easier to see these patterns sketched out, than it is to describe them. it's pretty clear...

Fourth, I've gone a long time without listening to Wagner. I figure once I open those floodgates, I'm going to be busy for a while. Where should I start with Wagner?

the Preludes and overtures are a great place to start - wonderful music, very readily approachable. Toscanini, Reiner and Solti all have great discs of these various overtures, preludes and orchestral excerpts...there are many many versions available.

Lastly, I have trouble appreciating any music other than orchesetral music. Solo piano works, string quartets, and chamber works all do not seem to grab and hold my attention in the same way that any work utilizing an orchestra of any size does. Any advice?

don't worry about it. it will happen we you are ready for it to happen.

[Lance]

I think a few months ago I had a thread called beginner quesitons... so Now i'm at the next stop, not yet intermediate, but hopefully a little more than a beginer.

So to start, how about a little anecdote? So I'm at school over the summer talking to our resident prof. of musicology, when it comes up I play piano, and he would like to learn. So we start talking about different technique books, and he asks me which I like. Well of course i reply with Hanon, and that I recently picked up a book by Sezerni (Read: Czerny).

This happens often to me. So while I've learned some basic pronunciations of composers and conductors (Hair-burt fun Car-ah-yahn?), theres a multitude I don't know. Shoot, I mean Bruno Walter seems easy enough. But It sounds like he's german, so is it Valter or Walter? I'll throw out a few names I'm curious about, but if you guys could just help me out with commonly mispronounced names, it would be appreciated.

Neeme Jarvi
Leopold Stokowski
Leos Janacek
Bedrich Smetana
Dvorak (If you can't tell, I have a hard time with Czech names)
Joeseph Jaochim (and who the hell is this guy? I see his name pop up constantly when I read)
Semyon Bychov

As you can see, I've compiled a few names of people from all over, and conductors and composers of all times. Any help with these, and any other commonly mispronouced names would be appreciated; if possible, I'd like to be even more prententious than I already am (probably not possible). [snipped]

Well, maybe I can help from what I know. As a radio commentator, I have to be careful about this myself, but sometimes there are two correct ways to prounounce someone's name. I'm sure mine will not be the definitive answers.

Bruno Walter = Bruno VAL-tair [soft V, just a hint of a "v" sound]
Neeme Jarvi = NAY-meh YAIR-vee
Leopold Stokowski = LAY-oh-pold Sto-KOFF-skee
Leos Janacek = LAY-ohs yah-NAH-chek
Bedrich Smetana = BAY-dreekh SMAY-tah-nah
Antonin Dvorak = AHN-toe-neen DVOR-zhock [the D_V is sounded together]
Joseph Joachim = Yosef Yoh-AHkeem [a friend of Johannes Brahms]
Johannes Brahms = Yo-HAH-ness Brahms (just like it reads)
Semyon Bychkov = ZEMM-yon [soft z, almost s] BEECH-kov
Felix Weingartner = FAY-leex VINE-gartner
Willem Mengelberg = Villem (sometimes Willem) MEN-gehl-BAIRG
Arturo Toscanini = ArTOOroh TOE-sca-knee-knee
Wilhelm Furtwangler = VEEL-haylm FOORT-vayne-glair (soft glair)
Charles Valentin Alkan = Sharl VAL-eh-tehn AHL-kahn

The accents are on the capitalized letters, of course.

Hope this helps, and don't take my total word totally on this!

[Stonebraker]

Thanks for the response. I know the basics of conducting, but like I said, I don't want to develop any bad habits. Hopefuly you're right, and I won't develop any habits too terrible.

As for the wagner, I was looking for an opera to start with. Just like I like to listen to an entire symphony, I'd like an entire Opera of wagners to start with, either on DVD or maybe CD. Thanks again.

On a lighter note, I just recovered my cell phone from the washing machine. This is what I get for drinking cheap wine.

[Stonebraker]

Well, maybe I can help from what I know. As a radio commentator, I have to be careful about this myself, but sometimes there are two correct ways to prounounce someone's name. I'm sure mine will not be the definitive answers.

Bruno Walter = Bruno VAL-tair [soft V, just a hint of a "v" sound]
Neeme Jarvi = NAY-meh YAIR-vee
Leopold Stokowski = LAY-oh-pold Sto-KOFF-skee
Leos Janacek = LAY-ohs yah-NAH-chek
Bedrich Smetana = BAY-dreekh SMAY-tah-nah
Antonin Dvorak = AHN-toe-neen DVOR-zhock [the D_V is sounded together]
Joseph Joachim = Yosef Yoh-AHkeem [a friend of Johannes Brahms]
Johannes Brahms = Yo-HAH-ness Brahms (just like it reads)
Semyon Bychkov = ZEMM-yon [soft z, almost s] BEECH-kov
Felix Weingartner = FAY-leex VINE-gartner
Willem Mengelberg = Villem (sometimes Willem) MEN-gehl-BAIRG
Arturo Toscanini = ArTOOroh TOE-sca-knee-knee
Wilhelm Furtwangler = VEEL-haylm FOORT-vayne-glair (soft glair)
Charles Valentin Alkan = Sharl VAL-eh-tehn AHL-kahn

The accents are on the capitalized letters, of course.

Hope this helps, and don't take my total word totally on this!

Wow, you hit all of them at once. Thanks ... now I just have to practice saying them.

[jbuck919]

Well, maybe I can help from what I know. As a radio commentator, I have to be careful about this myself, but sometimes there are two correct ways to prounounce someone's name. I'm sure mine will not be the definitive answers.

Bruno Walter = Bruno VAL-tair [soft V, just a hint of a "v" sound]
Neeme Jarvi = NAY-meh YAIR-vee
Leopold Stokowski = LAY-oh-pold Sto-KOFF-skee
Leos Janacek = LAY-ohs yah-NAH-chek
Bedrich Smetana = BAY-dreekh SMAY-tah-nah
Antonin Dvorak = AHN-toe-neen DVOR-zhock [the D_V is sounded together]
Joseph Joachim = Yosef Yoh-AHkeem [a friend of Johannes Brahms]
Johannes Brahms = Yo-HAH-ness Brahms (just like it reads)
Semyon Bychkov = ZEMM-yon [soft z, almost s] BEECH-kov
Felix Weingartner = FAY-leex VINE-gartner
Willem Mengelberg = Villem (sometimes Willem) MEN-gehl-BAIRG
Arturo Toscanini = ArTOOroh TOE-sca-knee-knee
Wilhelm Furtwangler = VEEL-haylm FOORT-vayne-glair (soft glair)
Charles Valentin Alkan = Sharl VAL-eh-tehn AHL-kahn

The accents are on the capitalized letters, of course.

Hope this helps, and don't take my total word totally on this!

Wow, you hit all of them at once. Thanks ... now I just have to practice saying them.

Don't spend a lot of time on Semyon Bychkov.

[piston]

Lastly, I have trouble appreciating any music other than orchesetral music. Solo piano works, string quartets, and chamber works all do not seem to grab and hold my attention in the same way that any work utilizing an orchestra of any size does. Any advice?

I vaguely recall a similar initial orchestral approach to classical music. But if one stops to think about it, most of the other musical genres we listen to generally consist of small groups of three, four, five or six players, and there are quite a few solo performers too. You might find it easier to appreciate piano music at first. Consider, for example, that Mussorgsky never orchestrated his Pictures at an Exhibition. His work, in itself, consists of piano music which other composers later orchestrated in their own way. Upon first listening to this great work on the piano (I think it was Alfred Brendel), I was greatly impressed by how much a single instrument could capture so much the orchestral music I knew . I don't know if you listen to a lot of concertos but they offer another way to gradually appreciate instrumental solos.

[IcedNote]

The second part of these beginner questions are for those in the who've studied the theory and academics of music extensively. I would just like a recommendation of books/exercises/activities that, in general, improve my knowledge of music. Right now I'm working out of the general textbooks, Piston and Steinke for theory, Blatter and Alder for orchestration, Kraft for ear training, and Read for notation. Any other essentials I should be studying? I expect less feedback on this issue, but it may be even more important.

Harmony & Voice-Leading - Aldwell and Schachter
Principles of Orchestration - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
Sonata Forms - Charles Rosen
The Romantic Generation - Charles Rosen
The Aesthetics of Music - Roger Scruton



-G

[Corlyss_D]

Score reading? What scores do you have?

Lastly, I have trouble appreciating any music other than orchesetral music. Solo piano works, string quartets, and chamber works all do not seem to grab and hold my attention in the same way that any work utilizing an orchestra of any size does. Any advice?

I think that's characteristic of non-musicians in their early phase of developing an appreciation for classical music. The orchestra is so brilliant and so encompassing - it's taken me years to recover from Rimsky Korsakov and Ravel, their ways with an orchestra are so compelling. Appreciation of smaller forces like chamber orchestra, string quartets, and solo music comes late as you develop an appreciation of the particular characteristics of specific instruments. When you start focusing on individual instruments, you will probably develop a taste for chamber music. It could just as well be that you simply prefer orchestral music, too. Neither is right; neither is wrong. You just have to find what you like and let it lead you where it wants to take you.

[RebLem]

As for conducting, I would suggest you get some videos of Andre Previn conducting. Previn, btw, was born in Berlin and the name was originally Prewin, but when the family moved to the US in the late 1930's, they changed the spelling because they preferred people get the pronunciation right to getting the spelling right. Anyway, Previn has a remarkably uneccentric beat with his right hand, and gives orchestral cues with his left in a very straightforward way. His beat is not huge; he doesn't jump around and leap like Bernstein, but his beat is not miniscule either, as Reiner, Monteux, and Richard Strauss could be. Just the golden mean.

As for getting away from your obsession with orchestral music and broadening your horizons, I would recommend some chamber music. Today, I just finished listening to a 4 CD album of the complete chamber music of Arthur Honegger on the timpani label. I can recommend it because it is not just string music, as many composers' chamber music seems to be. One whole disc in the set is devoted to chamber pieces involving at least one wind or brass instrument. It includes 3 string quartets, a piece for string quartet and mezzo-soprano, solo string pieces, sonatas for strings and piano, string duos, trios, all sorts of combinations. I think you would like it, and his developments are sophisticated, but easy to follow.

Another avenue might be through the music of Debussy, who wrote many pieces in two forms. Many of his works were originally solo piano pieces, and were later orchestrated by the composer or others. Comparing the different versions might help you understand a few things.

Hope this helps.

[Stonebraker]

Thanks all for the quick responses.

Harmony & Voice-Leading - Aldwell and Schachter
Principles of Orchestration - Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
Sonata Forms - Charles Rosen
The Romantic Generation - Charles Rosen
The Aesthetics of Music - Roger Scruton



-G

thanks, I'll be sure to check at least a few of those out. I'm currently taking the online course I saw posted on this website, that relates to Korsakovs Orchestration book. It's slow going for me, but I'm making sure I have a firm grasp of the concepts before I move on. Other than Korsakovs book, the rest are new to me, and I'll have to give them a look.

In reply to Corlyss, I have all of Mahler's and Brahms symphonies in score. Obviously, i've figured out this isn't the easiest way to begin score reading/conducting, but I don't have much trouble reading the scores as so much conducting. So I've picked up the last three or four mozart symphonies in score, and picked up Beethoven's Complete String Quartets. While I don't have too much trouble with the orchestral scores, I do find during the quartets I have a much better idea of everything that is going on.

As for conducting, I would suggest you get some videos of Andre Previn conducting. Previn, btw, was born in Berlin and the name was originally Prewin, but when the family moved to the US in the late 1930's, they changed the spelling because they preferred people get the pronunciation right to getting the spelling right. Anyway, Previn has a remarkably uneccentric beat with his right hand, and gives orchestral cues with his left in a very straightforward way. His beat is not huge; he doesn't jump around and leap like Bernstein, but his beat is not miniscule either, as Reiner, Monteux, and Richard Strauss could be. Just the golden mean.

As for getting away from your obsession with orchestral music and broadening your horizons, I would recommend some chamber music. Today, I just finished listening to a 4 CD album of the complete chamber music of Arthur Honegger on the timpani label. I can recommend it because it is not just string music, as many composers' chamber music seems to be. One whole disc in the set is devoted to chamber pieces involving at least one wind or brass instrument. It includes 3 string quartets, a piece for string quartet and mezzo-soprano, solo string pieces, sonatas for strings and piano, string duos, trios, all sorts of combinations. I think you would like it, and his developments are sophisticated, but easy to follow.

Another avenue might be through the music of Debussy, who wrote many pieces in two forms. Many of his works were originally solo piano pieces, and were later orchestrated by the composer or others. Comparing the different versions might help you understand a few things.

Hope this helps.

I've found Previn, in the few recordings I have, to be an exhilarating conductor who brings excitement and a freshness to every piece. In my opinion, this is one of the main characteristics of great conductors. However, I also love that he can explain things in a way that I can understand them. I'll be sure to check out more of his DVD's, I only have one, but I could probably learn a lot from that. And you're right; he doesn't jump and leap like bernstein, and for a beginer like me, thats very important. I probably take too much fro mthe Bernstein DVDs that I have. Hopefully one day I'll be able to do the "Lenny dance", but until then I should stick to the basics.

Thanks again, already this thread has provided answers to nearly all of my questions. As usual, I've been drinking for quite some time now, so I hope most of my writing is coherent.

[moldyoldie]

Speaking of pronunciations, a personal favorite...

The late, great conductor Ferenc Fricsay: FAIR-ence FREE-shoy (not Frank Fricassée)

Don't spend a lot of time on Semyon Bychkov.

Okay, I'll bite. Why not?

Or is this merely an "editorial".

[Stonebraker]

Thanks RebLem, I've checked out some Debussy stuff that seems to speak to me. Now I'm going to have to attack his orchestral stuff.

Quick question for anyone, is the Concertgebouworkest the same as the Concertgebouw?

[Haydnseek]

Quick question for anyone, is the Concertgebouworkest the same as the Concertgebouw?

Concertgebouw is literally "concert building" in English. Concert Hall would be the best equivalent.

Concertgebouworkest is the orchestra in residence there. Other ensembles and individuals use the hall too.

[erinmr]

Lastly, I have trouble appreciating any music other than orchesetral music. Solo piano works, string quartets, and chamber works all do not seem to grab and hold my attention in the same way that any work utilizing an orchestra of any size does. Any advice?

I vaguely recall a similar initial orchestral approach to classical music. But if one stops to think about it, most of the other musical genres we listen to generally consist of small groups of three, four, five or six players, and there are quite a few solo performers too. You might find it easier to appreciate piano music at first. Consider, for example, that Mussorgsky never orchestrated his Pictures at an Exhibition. His work, in itself, consists of piano music which other composers later orchestrated in their own way. Upon first listening to this great work on the piano (I think it was Alfred Brendel), I was greatly impressed by how much a single instrument could capture so much the orchestral music I knew . I don't know if you listen to a lot of concertos but they offer another way to gradually appreciate instrumental solos.

You mentioned in your original post that you play piano. What you may find is that many piano solo works actually mimic the orchestra. Take for example a Mozart sonata. When I play one, I can almost hear the Double Bass and Cellos accompanying in my left hand while the flutes and violins are carrying the melody in my right. I realize his is a very broad discription, but without the music and a piano right here it is a little difficult for me to describe. (Maybe some of you experts out there could help in that department.) I find this more so with Classical pieces than with Romantic pieces, however, this may be a way for you to begin appreciating (and possibly enjoying!) at least piano solo works a little more.

~Erin

[rogch]

Lastly, I have trouble appreciating any music other than orchesetral music. Solo piano works, string quartets, and chamber works all do not seem to grab and hold my attention in the same way that any work utilizing an orchestra of any size does. Any advice?

My experience is that piano trios can be a door-opener into the world of chamber music. Many composers are very good in that genre, from Haydn and Mozart to Shostakovich. Shostakovich's second piano trio sounds like nothing else, i can almost guarantee it will blow you away. Beethoven's piano trios very exciting too. In fact, some of them became a turning point in my relationship to Beethoven's music some years ago.

[rogch]

I've gone a long time without listening to Wagner. I figure once I open those floodgates, I'm going to be busy for a while. Where should I start with Wagner?

Oh, we all reach that point sooner or later, don't we? I recognize the mixed emotions of excitement and concern. Here's how i did it: I found a Wagner opera at my local library (it happened to be Solti's Parsifal). One day i isolated myself from the world and played through the whole thing. I had to hang on for two or three hours, but then it clicked. And that was it. If you understand some German you can follow the libretto, otherwise a DVD with subtitles is perhaps better.

This of course wasn't the first time i heard Wagner. I had heard parts of his operas on the radio several times. My interest in his music grew when i discovered the fantastic flow and continuity in it. This may be seen as blasphemy, but Wagner is actually very good as background music. You don't have to listen intensely to every note the first time. Little by little you will appreciate some long lines, lovely harmonies and original ideas (and discover where many composers stole their ideas...).

And by the way: Give his librettos a wide berth in the beginning. The first time i studied a Wagner libretto i thought that if i had seen this in an opera house without preparation i would have laughed myself to death. But after a while i got used to them and know i can even appreciate parts of the librettos even if the music is the main attraction.

[Jack Kelso]

As for the wagner, I was looking for an opera to start with. Just like I like to listen to an entire symphony, I'd like an entire Opera of wagners to start with, either on DVD or maybe CD. Thanks again.

First of all, as we say here in Germany: "PROST!"

I found my way into Wagner's world through the complete "Der fliegende Holländer", since that early work is very melodic, moves right along and is still pretty much based on traditional arias and choruses (although it's through-composed---like Schumann's "Genoveva"). And its impact is immediately appealing (unlike "Genoveva").

Jack

[John F]

<< pronunciation >>

Robert A. Fradkin, "The Well-Tempered Announcer: A Pronunciation Guide to Classical Music" will answer a lot of your questions. It's available from the usual online sources--amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, etc. List price is $32.99, B&N offers "members" a discount.

<< a recommendation of books/exercises/activities that, in general, improve my knowledge of music >>

One essential that you don't mention is musical form: fugue, sonata allegro, French overture, rondo, etc. Rosen's "Sonata Forms," mentioned elsewhere in this thread, is an excellent book but maybe for those who already know about sonata form. At a more basic level there's D.F. Tovey's Essays in Musical Analysis, mostly program notes for his orchestral concerts, and his "Companion to Beethoven's Pianoforte Sonatas," almost a bar-by-bar talk through the 32.

For the history of music, the standard college text for decades was Grout's "A History of Western Music," revised after Grout's death by Palisca. This is rather dry and it moves very fast. Norton publishes excellent histories of the major musical periods in separate volumes, if you want to get into the Classical Era (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven et al) or the Moderns in more depth.

<< Where should I start with Wagner? >>

When I was about 16 I started with "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg," his one successful comedy, just because it was what my parents had. It's now available not only in many good recordings but in a DVD of a vivid live performance at the Metropolitan Opera. Apart from its high entertainment value, "Meistersinger" also shows Wagner's key dramatic and musical methods; once you've got a handle on that, you can go on to "Tristan und Isolde" and the rest.

<< Solo piano works, string quartets, and chamber works all do not seem to grab and hold my attention in the same way that any work utilizing an orchestra of any size does. >>

For me, the breakthrough came at about 20 when I realized--duh!--that after all this music too was by Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, Brahms, and many of my other favorite orchestral composers. The sound of solo and chamber music is of course not as loud and colorful as symphonies and concertos, but the other qualities I liked in the symphonies turned out to be in the chamber music as well--if anything in a still more focused and intense form. Possibly the works for larger chamber ensembles might be a good starting point: Mozart's quintet for clarinet and strings, Schubert's string quintet in C and the "Trout" Quintet, Beethoven's septet, and so on.

<< conducting >>

Max Rudolf's textbook used to be the standard; don't know if it still is. Hermann Scherchen also wrote a textbook on conducting. But as has been said, time-beating as such is dead easy to pick up--and while orchestra players appreciate a clear beat (at least a couple of friends in orchestras have told me so), that's way from what conducting is really all about, and it isn't even necessary in order to lead an orchestra in an outstanding performance.

You can get an inside view of the art from Norman Del Mar's books on how to conduct Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, and other areas of the standard repertoire. Del Mar also takes up such problems as the editions of the works, also the subject of his book "Orchestral Variations," and he wrote an invaluable book on the instruments of the classical orchestra, "Anatomy of the Orchestra," which will help when you're ghost-conducting Strauss and wonder what on earth a heckelphone is. <grin> Del Mar was a skillful conductor himself and before that played French horn in the Philharmonia Orchestra, and a stylish writer as well.