Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

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Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by Lance » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am

I do extensive cataloguing but this one may have slipped through the cracks. I have most of Fritz Kreisler's recordings ... LPs and CDs, including the deluxe RCA 11-CD box that I think has gone out of print. But does anybody know if Fritz Kreisler recorded Tartini's "Devil's Trill" sonata? Someone in the Binghamton area is related to Kreisler, on the one hand, and to David Oistrakh on the other. (What a combination of violinistic talents to have for relatives!) Why do I think Kreisler has recorded it but yet I am unable to locate it in my own collection?
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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:24 am

Lance wrote:I do extensive cataloguing but this one may have slipped through the cracks. I have most of Fritz Kreisler's recordings ... LPs and CDs, including the deluxe RCA 11-CD box that I think has gone out of print. But does anybody know if Fritz Kreisler recorded Tartini's "Devil's Trill" sonata? Someone in the Binghamton area is related to Kreisler, on the one hand, and to David Oistrakh on the other. (What a combination of violinistic talents to have for relatives!) Why do I think Kreisler has recorded it but yet I am unable to locate it in my own collection?
--------------

Lance, David Oistrakh has relatives living in Sydney. Two are medical colleagues of my husband's and both graduated with him. In fact, here is a little secret, my husband and I met at one of his colleague's parties
many, many years ago. Neither one of the Oistrakh relatives is musically gifted, I am sorry to say.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Post by rasputin » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:23 am

Lance: as far as I know, Fritz didn't recorded this piece of his.
And it is his piece. 85% Kreisler, and 15% Tartini.
Do you have the famous Odnoposoff's recording ?

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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by violinland » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:32 am

Lance wrote:I do extensive cataloguing but this one may have slipped through the cracks. I have most of Fritz Kreisler's recordings ... LPs and CDs, including the deluxe RCA 11-CD box that I think has gone out of print. But does anybody know if Fritz Kreisler recorded Tartini's "Devil's Trill" sonata? Someone in the Binghamton area is related to Kreisler, on the one hand, and to David Oistrakh on the other. (What a combination of violinistic talents to have for relatives!) Why do I think Kreisler has recorded it but yet I am unable to locate it in my own collection?
Sadly, Kreisler did not record the "Devil's Trill" sonata. Never the less his edition has the most brilliant cadenza following the guide lines set forth by F David.. If Kreisler played his own edition and played his own cadenza then we can only speculate on what we and the gramophone have missed. But we must not over look the fact that he may have recorded the work and it remains un-issued. As was the case with Bruch Violin Concerto and his own quartet, discovered some years ago.

Of all the recording that I have in my collection and I have heard, there is no doubt in my mind that the recording by Odnoposoff is outstanding and his performance of the Kreisler cadenza is dazzling violin virtuosity.

The Odnoposoff recording should be compulsory listening for all aspiring violinists.

Long live Ricardo Odnoposoff, who is now in his 90’s
Last edited by violinland on Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by rasputin » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:48 am

Sorry, but sadly, Odnoposoff died 11-17-2004.

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Post by violinland » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:50 am

rasputin wrote:Sorry, but sadly, Odnoposoff died 11-17-2004.
Thank you, I must have missed the obituary. The last I read of him was that he was going stong at 92.

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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by Lance » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:53 am

violinland wrote:Sadly, Kreisler did not record the "Devil's Trill" sonata. Never the less his edition has the most brilliant cadenza following the guide lines set forth by F David.. If Kreisler played his own edition and played his own cadenza then we can only speculate on what we and the gramophone have missed.

Of all the recording that I have in my collection and I have heard, there is no doubt in my mind that the recording by Odnoposoff is outstanding and his performance of the Kreisler cadenza is dazzling violin virtuosity.

The Odnoposoff recording should be compulsory listening for all aspiring violinists.

Long live Ricardo Odnoposoff, who is now in his 90’s
Dear Cheniston:

First off, welcome back. Many of us have been wondering if all was well with you. I hope so. It's great to see you here.

Secondly, I do have the Odnoposoff Devil's Trill on a Bayer CD [200.004] and I used this performance in a radio tribute to him.

Thirdly, my records indicate that Ricardo Odnoposoff passed away on October 26, 2004* in Vienna, Austria. If that information is, indeed, incorrect, perhaps you can verify that for me.

As for a Kreisler recording of the Devil's Trill, one wonders why he would not have made a recording of the work after all, especially after providing a cadenza. Both HMV and Victor probably would have let him record anything he wanted; he did, after all, do all the Beethoven violin sonatas via 78s, so why not the Devil's Trill, too? Perhaps some things we will not get to hear by these great masters until we get to the Great Beyond (and hope they're there too!).

* - corrected, though I see yet another date of death in this thread. One wonders who is right.
Last edited by Lance on Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by violinland » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:09 am

Lance wrote:
violinland wrote:Sadly, Kreisler did not record the "Devil's Trill" sonata. Never the less his edition has the most brilliant cadenza following the guide lines set forth by F David.. If Kreisler played his own edition and played his own cadenza then we can only speculate on what we and the gramophone have missed.

Of all the recording that I have in my collection and I have heard, there is no doubt in my mind that the recording by Odnoposoff is outstanding and his performance of the Kreisler cadenza is dazzling violin virtuosity.

The Odnoposoff recording should be compulsory listening for all aspiring violinists.

Long live Ricardo Odnoposoff, who is now in his 90’s
Dear Cheniston:

First off, welcome back. Many of us have been wondering if all was well with you. I hope so. It's great to see you here.

Secondly, I do have the Odnoposoff Devil's Trill on a Bayer CD [200.004] and I used this performance in a radio tribute to him.

Thirdly, my records indicate that Ricardo Odnoposoff passed away on October 26, 2006 in Vienna, Austria. If that information is, indeed, incorrect, perhaps you can verify that for me.

As for a Kreisler recording of the Devil's Trill, one wonders why he would not have made a recording of the work after all, especially after providing a cadenza. Both HMV and Victor probably would have let him record anything he wanted; he did, after all, do all the Beethoven violin sonatas via 78s, so why not the Devil's Trill, too? Perhaps some things we will not get to hear by these great masters until we get to the Great Beyond (and hope they're there too!).
Indeed it is great to be here again. By explanation for my long absence. Last June I discovered I had cancer of the larynx, there followed three operations. The final being the most drastic together with the fact that a month later I had a stroke.

I still have my vocal chords but could not speak for some months. This meant giving up my university lecturing for a year. Thankfully things are getting back to normal. I have recently given two talks in the Athenaeum. Thank you for you kind concern. I shall scan the board every day but will only comment if I have something to say. My cannon is loaded in readiness.

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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by violinland » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:21 am

Secondly, I do have the Odnoposoff Devil's Trill on a Bayer CD [200.004] and I used this performance in a radio tribute to him.
Lance

Is this recording a radio broadcast or the Concert Hall LP reording? If indeed it is the Concert Hall recording then you will, I am sure agree what my comments.

I have just found the CD and in the booklet it states that the recording is a radio broadcast.

You still have to hear the LP recording. This could be arranged, contact me.

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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:05 am

Lance wrote:IWhy do I think Kreisler has recorded it
Wasn't that kinda early for an artist of his era?
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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by Lance » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:21 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Lance wrote:IWhy do I think Kreisler has recorded it
Wasn't that kinda early for an artist of his era?
Well, not really. He lived right into the early stereophonic recording era [died in 1962] though he wasn't playing or recording any longer. However, he did record lengthy works with Sergei Rachmaninoff at the piano (via 78-rpm discs for RCA Victor), so the Tartini sonata could have been something Kreisler might have recorded during that period. Alas, we can only wish for some music to have been recorded by these wonderful artists of long ago.
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Post by rasputin » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:23 am

And why three russian musicians and friends who went
from Russia to the west never recorded together? What
a missing chance! (of course I'm talking about Nathan,Vladimir and Gregor)

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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:23 pm

Lance wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
Lance wrote:IWhy do I think Kreisler has recorded it
Wasn't that kinda early for an artist of his era?
Well, not really. He lived right into the early stereophonic recording era [died in 1962] though he wasn't playing or recording any longer. However, he did record lengthy works with Sergei Rachmaninoff at the piano (via 78-rpm discs for RCA Victor), so the Tartini sonata could have been something Kreisler might have recorded during that period. Alas, we can only wish for some music to have been recorded by these wonderful artists of long ago.
After I posted that, I did some noodling around on the web. I see Kreisler wrote cadenzas for Tartini's famous sonata, but I could only find modern players or sheet music.
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Re: Fritz Kreisler: Devil's Trill Sonata, yes/no?

Post by Lance » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:51 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:After I posted that, I did some noodling around on the web. I see Kreisler wrote cadenzas for Tartini's famous sonata, but I could only find modern players or sheet music.
Indeed, the Kreisler cadenzas seem to be famous in Tartini's "Devil's Trill" sonata and hence all the more reason to wonder why Kreisler never recorded the work himself.
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Post by rasputin » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:00 pm

And why didn't he recorded Elgar's v.c.,? Didn't he gave the firt
live play?

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Post by CharmNewton » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:11 pm

rasputin wrote:And why didn't he recorded Elgar's v.c.,? Didn't he gave the firt
live play?
I've wondered about this myself, and have come to the conclusion that he didn't want to re-learn this demanding work (technically and emotionally) just for the purpose of recording it. He did tour with it in 1910 or so, but dropped it soon after. I've read that Kreisler disliked practicing and that his performance repertoire kept him sharp. It would have been a lot of work for a recording, and he may no longer have had the ability to perform it well by his own standards. Even today, world-class violinists have difficulty performing this work well, let alone the conductor bringing out the color and detail of Elgar's wonderful orchestration.

John

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Post by rasputin » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:18 am

Yes, I agree. Elgar's is one of the most demanding and difficult v.c.
and it had very few recordings if one compare with the other famous
ones. You're probably right on Fritz fearing he didn't have the
technical comand enough to recorded it with the level of excelence
required.
My favorites version of that splendid work are Sammon's and Heifetz.
Young Menuhin's is a miracle for a teenager, but obviously he hadn't
the maturity this complex work demands.
IMO no violinist should prepare this concerto before reach his/her 30
years.

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Post by CharmNewton » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:38 pm

rasputin wrote:Yes, I agree. Elgar's is one of the most demanding and difficult v.c.
and it had very few recordings if one compare with the other famous
ones. You're probably right on Fritz fearing he didn't have the
technical comand enough to recorded it with the level of excelence
required.
My favorites version of that splendid work are Sammon's and Heifetz.
Young Menuhin's is a miracle for a teenager, but obviously he hadn't
the maturity this complex work demands.
IMO no violinist should prepare this concerto before reach his/her 30
years.
I like Sammons' recording for the beauty of his sound and his fearlessness, but for me there are too many patches where he misses the notes. There are three recordings I really love--Heifetz, Hilary Hahn and Kyoko Takezawa, both of the latter with Colin Davis.

I find Heifetz very moving in this work and Sargent conducts the orchestral part extremely well. Takezawa is by far the most intense recording of this concerto I've ever heard, slashing and utterly fearless. Unfortunately, the Bavarian Radio Orchestra is a little sleepy in places and struggle in others. That doesn't take away from Takezawa's achievement.

Hilary Hahn's recording is my favorite. Her tone is so beautiful and technically she is so strong that the music just flows from her instrument easily and naturally. Her playing of pasagework is razor sharp if not as overtly dramatic as Takezawa's. Tonally, this is how I imagine Kreisler sounding in this work.

A couple of years ago, Midori was touring with the concerto. I hope there is a recording sitting in the can awaiting release. It's been a long time (too long for me) since a new recording of her has been released.

John

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Post by rasputin » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:43 am

There's de legend that great Joseph Hassid recorded it. If he did... :shock: :shock:

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Post by CharmNewton » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:58 am

rasputin wrote:There's de legend that great Joseph Hassid recorded it. If he did... :shock: :shock:
While I'm not familiar with Hassid's playing on record, this had me Googling a bit. If he performed the concerto in England, there is a pretty good chance the BBC recorded it. Finding it could be another matter. :)

While the Elgar Violin Concerto hasn't (until recent times) had many recordings, its performance history may be different and the BBC may have recordings by interesting artists. Marie Hall made an acoustic recording (totaling about 17 minutes) of patches from the concerto (one side per movement) plus the cadenza. Hers is an interpretation I would like to hear. Technically, she sounds up to the demands of the concerto based on the bits that were recorded--the cadenza is very moving. It sounds to me that this work was in her active repertoire.

John

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Elgar Violin Concerto,Hall,Hassid,Sammons and Yehudi Menuhin

Post by violinland » Thu May 03, 2007 2:38 pm

rasputin wrote:There's de legend that great Joseph Hassid recorded it. If he did... :shock: :shock:
I remember first hearing about Joseph Hassid’s (1924 – 1946?) recording of the Elgar around about the time of his death and any number of times since. Musical legend has it that he had recorded the Walton and the Elgar before he became ill and that they ony exist in test pressings. Sadly the rumour perpetrated on but this has not brought the discs to light.

A further legend is that a private recording was made of a BBC broadcast of Joseph Hassid playing the Saint Saens Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso. I was told by one friend who is one of the most reliable violinists in this country that he had heard the recording and it was at the same time breath taking and truly amazing. I have also been told that the person who has the recording, who is a very well known pianist, will not even play the discs his or her self. If you own the discs I suppose you are entitled to do what you want with them, what concerns me is what will become of them when the inevitable happens.

As to the Marie Hall (1884 – 1947) discs of the Elgar Violin Concerto, while as we are all aware the sound is primitive the playing is not. These recordings were made circa 1920 on HMV 2-07942/5 single sided and later issued on HMV D79/80 double sided, with the composer conducting. Marie Hall was a very able performer on the violin and these discs prove it. Marie Hall’s performance is to my mind nearer that of Yehudi Menuhin than Albert Sammons. If only she had recorded the whole work.

While they are not in my collection now, I swapped them with the collector Thomas Clear when he stayed with me in 1972, for all the known recordings, at that time, of Jeno Hubay. However, I recently acquired the Pearl dubbing on GEM 112 of the Elgar and still consider the playing good.

Interestingly enough of the early recordings of the Elgar Violin Concerto Marie Hall, Albert Sammons and Yehudi Menuhin - two were conducted by Elgar himself.

Someone mentioned the Elgar Violin Concerto cadenza. Yehudi Menuhin was to play at a Prom concert in London but his plane from America was delayed by fog. The audience and the radio listeners waited in anticipation for over 30 minutes when eventually Menuhin arrived to a standing ovation. His performance of the Elgar was divine, and the cadenza riveted the audience so much so that there was not a single cough in the house. The concert finished at 9.00pm, by the omission of one item. We were then taken over to the BBC studio for the news. When we were returned to the Albert Hall at 9.20pm the applause was still continuing some 25 minutes later stopping only for the divine Menuhin to play some solo Bach.

This is the stuff violin history is made of.

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Post by Ralph » Thu May 03, 2007 4:13 pm

I'm delighted to see Cheniston return and hope, as all who know him, for a full recovery.
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Post by Lance » Thu May 03, 2007 11:55 pm

Cheniston - loved reading your post on Marie Hall and Yehudi Menuhin. I am kind of going through a Menuhin revival myself. It seems to me I posted about his Vivaldi concertos with Maksymiuk, recorded in cooperation with the Polish Radio and released by EMI. I think I now have all of the Vivaldi in which they collaborated on disc.
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