Brahms symphonies

Your 'hot spot' for all classical music subjects. Non-classical music subjects are to be posted in the Corner Pub.

Moderators: Lance, Corlyss_D

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Brahms symphonies

Post by niper » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:54 am

I got Johannes Brahms: Symphony No. 4 in E minor, Op. 98 - Carlos Kleiber / Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra .
For 1 st symphony choose Wiener Philharmoniker/Wilhelm Furtwängler and Berliner Philharmoniker/Rudolf Kempe on TESTAMENT.
What to choose for 2nd and 3rd symphony(also some good interpretation of 1st and 2nd sym.)? As a freshman in classical music(only cca 100cd),so it is my english(ha-ha).
Thankful

Corlyss_D
Site Administrator
Posts: 27663
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 2:25 am
Location: The Great State of Utah
Contact:

Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:02 am

Welcome to the board, Niper. Kick your shoes off and set a spell. Brahms symphonies are not my thing, but they are the thing of many here. I'm sure your cup will over flow with recommendations. In the meantime, have you tried the Serenades, particularly the 1st?
Corlyss
Contessa d'EM, a carbon-based life form

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26867
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:32 am

Welcome to our new poster from Croatia!

Well, I am a great lover of the Brahms symphonies, but not much of a recording jock. They have been performed so well so many times that it is hard to make a specific recommendation. I'll leave it up to our CD collectors to give suggestions, except to say that I don't much see the point of having these as separate recordings rather than any of a number of boxed sets. I had one from the library last year by the Staatskapelle Dresden that was excellent. If you wanted to go with historic recordings, Bruno Walter breathed these things.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

val
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:46 am
Location: Lisbon

Post by val » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:35 am

Regarding the first Symphony, Kempe with the BPO is a very good choice.
In a different perspective, much more dynamic and articulated, I would chose Toscanini (NBC) or Karajan (VPO, mono).

In the 2nd, Giulini with the Philharmonia and Haitink with the Concertgebow are very good. Ancerl with the CzPO is more aggressive and more accentuated.
But my preferred version is Bruno Walter with Columbia. Lyrical, very natural.

In the 3rd, Walter with Columbia, Böhm in an old recording with the VPO (mono) and Giulini with the Philharmonia are my preferred.

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

brahms/symphony's

Post by niper » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:50 am

What's your opinion about Jochus Brahms DG box set(4sym.) ?!

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

brahms symphonys

Post by niper » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:52 am

Sorry,Jochum's Brahms !

Ralph
Dittersdorf Specialist & CMG NY Host
Posts: 20996
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Paradise on Earth, New York, NY

Post by Ralph » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:11 am

Welcome! The Jochum is a nice set although technically the recordings are a bit below the standard of more recent releases.

I also really like Bernstein's Brahms symphony cycle.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

Ken
Posts: 2511
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:17 am
Location: Düsseldorf, Nordrhein-Westfalen

Post by Ken » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:56 am

I have Sawallisch's set on Phillips, and the Nos. 2 and 3 are very solid, but Nos. 1 and 4 leave something to be desired in terms of dynamics and tempi.
Du sollst schlechte Compositionen weder spielen, noch, wenn du nicht dazu gezwungen bist, sie anhören.

slofstra
Posts: 8983
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:23 pm
Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada
Contact:

Post by slofstra » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:22 am

Link to Brahms Symphony no. 1 thread

I have taken the liberty of providing a link to a recent thread on Brahms Symphony No. 1. Here you will find MUCH information that also pertains to the second and third symphonies.

Welcome to CMG. As I'm more of a musical neophyte, I tend to post more questions than answers and have found the members to be generous with their responses.

Chalkperson
Disposable Income Specialist
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:19 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:34 am

Hey Niper...Welcome to our little Virtual Music World, i'm not the best for Brahms, I leave that to Big John, however, Kleiber's Fourth is very special, as are all of the recordings he made... :wink:
Last edited by Chalkperson on Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

slofstra
Posts: 8983
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:23 pm
Location: Waterloo, ON, Canada
Contact:

Re: brahms symphonys

Post by slofstra » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:52 am

niper wrote:Sorry,Jochum's Brahms !
Have you noticed that there is also a DG Boehm set at low cost? I acquired this recently, but haven't had a change to listen yet. It is very well regarded though.

Chalkperson
Disposable Income Specialist
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:19 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: brahms symphonys

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:17 am

slofstra wrote:
niper wrote:Sorry,Jochum's Brahms !
Have you noticed that there is also a DG Boehm set at low cost? I acquired this recently, but haven't had a change to listen yet. It is very well regarded though.
And Decca just released Chaillly's set with the Concertgebouw for under twenty bucks, I have not had a chance to listen to all of them yet either...

Lance
Site Administrator
Posts: 18505
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:27 am
Location: Binghamton, New York
Contact:

Post by Lance » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:51 am

Niper, I'm glad you finally made it here. We hope you enjoy your visits and welcome you to our site.

As for Brahms symphonies, the choices are huge, and probably confusing. These are some of the "complete" sets I would heartily recommend. It doesn't get much better than some of them, actually.
  • Sony Classical 45823 - George Szell, conductor - Cleveland Orchestra (also includes Haydn Variations, Tragic and Academic Festival Overtures). The catalogue number may have been deleted or replaced with another edition so check this one out carefully.
  • EMI 52321 [6 CDs] - Wilhelm Furtwängler, conductor - various orchestra. Also includes the Violin Concerto (with Menuhin), A German Requiem, the "Double" Concerto, and some Hungarian Dances.
  • EMI 65513 - Wilhelm Furtwängler, conductor, BPO/VPO, also includes Beethoven Coriolan and Leonore Overtures.
  • RCA 60325 [Toscanini Edition] - Arturo Toscanini, conductor - NBC Symphony (this may have been reissued with a new number).
  • Testament 3167 [3 CDs] - Arturo Toscanini, conductor - BBC Symphony Orchestra (includes Haydn Variations and Tragic Overture), all live, England, 1952)
  • MCA 9817 [2 CDs] (probabaly reissued under another number) - William Steinberg, conductor - Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. Steinberg was a superb conductor and brought the PSO to new heights. A Germanic craftsman, I have always loved these performances.
  • Mercury 434.380 [2 CDS - Antal Dorati, conductor - London Symphony Orchestra (Nos. 1, 3, 4; Minneapolis Symphony (No. 2). Superb readings, wonderful sound, and underrated in my opinion.
[/list] I tend to enjoy the more historical performances of this repertoire. Technologies have considerably made these more listenable without altering the original content and musical perceptions. Of course, this list could go on and on with more contemporary recordings. And once you start digging into individual performances, there are just countless ones you will want. Good luck in your endeavors![/color]
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

Image

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: brahms/symphony's

Post by Barry » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 am

niper wrote:What's your opinion about Jochus Brahms DG box set(4sym.) ?!
It's one of the best sets on record. Yes, it's in mono, but it's good mono sound. So if that doesn't bother you, by all means, don't hesitate to grab this set.
Otherwise, I agree with the Bruno Walter recommendation for the 2nd and 3rd symphonies. I personally prefer his early 50s New York Philharmonic recordings, but they may be harder to find and more costly than the late 50s Columbia Symphony recordings, which are also quite fine, albeit a bit more subdude.
To me, Furtwangler was the best in the first and fourth symphonies, but rather than the VPO performance of the 1st that you have, his NDR Symphony 1st from 1951 is he one to get (there is also a 1952 BPO performance that is phenominal, but it's only available as part of a larger boxed set on DG). His early 40s performance of the 4th with the BPO also shouldn't be missed. You can get both of those performances in this boxed set, which is available for a very good price from Amazon (you need to click on the "used and new" link to get to the lower priced options) and which contains most of Furtwangler's best Brahms performances on record: http://www.amazon.com/Furtwangler-Condu ... 651&sr=8-1

Another great recording of the 3rd is Giulini's with the Vienna Philharmonic, but again, it may be difficult to find.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

RebLem
Posts: 9117
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA 87112, 2 blocks west of the Breaking Bad carwash.
Contact:

Post by RebLem » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:44 pm

I recommend starting off with two complete sets, the ones by Szell and Solti. The Szell set has what to me are the best available recordings of the 3rd symphony and the Haydn Variations and the two overtures. The Solti 4th, IMO, is the greatest performance of that work on record, and excellent performances of the others as well. He is also, I believe, one of only two conductors who records all the repeats (the other is Istvan Kertesz). As for the 2nd, I think Pierre Monteux is the pre-eminent conductor. His performance of the 2nd with the LSO which is the one to have, though, is available now, so far as I know, only in a 7 CD set. But the other items in the set are excellent, as well, and will give you an excellent general survey of many of the performances for which this great conductor is justly renowned. http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Dri ... mp_id=3494

Now we come to the First Sym. This is the hardest nut to crack. IMO, the first lends itself to a wider variety of interpretive approaches than any other, and there are many fine performances. The great 1951 Furtwangler recording is sad, contemplative, ruminative. The NBC Toscanini 1951 (?) is fleet, light, and ebullient. The Solti is dramatic to the point of being almost operatic. Szell, as was his wont, is tightly controlled, never missing a sense of structure and an emphasis on pulse. At the same time, he brings out the inner instrumental voices often obscured by other, more single-minded conductors. These are the hallmarks of Szell's approach to all music, which is why I consider him the greatest conductor who ever lived.

But, in my opinion, the greatest single MOR (that's middle-of-the-road, abbreviated) performance is the 1960 Bohm recording with the Berlin Phil. Not his later recording as part of a set with the Wiener Phil, though that is good, too, but the earlier, stand-alone recording of 1960 with the BPO. I had it on LP, but didn't know it had been released on CD until I finally found it on the Australian Eloquence reissue label, which is available from Buywell for less than $7 USD + shipping and a small currency conversion fee.

Oh, yes, and welcome to our goofy little group :!:
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

Marc
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:45 pm

Post by Marc » Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:40 pm

Hmmm .... do try Van Beinum (1950's, Concertgebouw, mono/stereo). I remember walking into a music shop some years ago and they played Brahms 2. I asked: what's this new fresh vivid Brahms? They said: it's good old Eduard van B.!
So I bought it; the rest is history :D.

Niper, good luck, with any purchase!

Heck148
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:32 pm

the Brahms symphonies aree standard repertoire and have been performed and recorded by the world's greatest conductors and finest orchestras.

for complete sets I'd highly recommend

Toscannini/NBC
Szell/Cleveland
Solti/CSO

Toscanini and Solti are terrific throughout the series esp. Szell is very good also, outstanding #3

but there are individual performances thatmust be included as well

for #1
Wand/CSO/RCA

for #2
Monteux/LSO
Reiner/NYPO
Bernstein/NYPO

#3
Reiner/CSO
Stock/CSO

#4 - toss-up between
Toscanini/NBC
Reiner/Royal PO

with Solti/CSO a very strong entry as well.

Cyril Ignatius
Posts: 1035
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Pennsylvania

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:43 pm

Bernard Haitink and the Boston Symphony for Brahms # 2. I love this symphony - its warm, sunny and flowing. And maybe for good reason; Brahms evidently wrote it from a sunny resort in southern Austria surrounded by mountains and water.
Cyril Ignatius

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

brahms

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:32 am

Ralph wrote:Welcome! The Jochum is a nice set although technically the recordings are a bit below the standard of more recent releases.

I also really like Bernstein's Brahms symphony cycle.
I like very much Jochum DG rec. of Sibelius(The Tempest; The Oceanides; Night Ride and Sunrise ) and on the same disc Wagner(Lohengrin and especialy Parsifal vorspiel) and his Beethoven cycle on philips with Concertgebebouw orc. I'll try his Brahms,but before I'm gonna try his Bruckner. Think that Bruckner will suit him bettter.
Bernstein Brahms,hm?!!! Thank's anyway Ralph...

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

brahms

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:42 am

jbuck919 wrote:Welcome to our new poster from Croatia!

Well, I am a great lover of the Brahms symphonies, but not much of a recording jock. They have been performed so well so many times that it is hard to make a specific recommendation. I'll leave it up to our CD collectors to give suggestions, except to say that I don't much see the point of having these as separate recordings rather than any of a number of boxed sets. I had one from the library last year by the Staatskapelle Dresden that was excellent. If you wanted to go with historic recordings, Bruno Walter breathed these things.
I got some historic records of Furtwangler,Toscanini and mr Walter,but that's a records with poorly sound. Even there in 1.st symphony Brahms better suit to Toscanini(NBC orc.) than Walter(NBC or Wienna?!),but for a 2nd and 3rd will see.But Walter Mahler,that's something different!
Thanks jbuck919

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

brahms

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:49 am

Chalkperson wrote:Hey Niper...Welcome to our little Virtual Music World, i'm not the best for Brahms, I leave that to Big John, however, Kleiber's Fourth is very special, as are all of the recordings he made... :wink:
Yes he is great guy undoubtedly!!!

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Re: brahms symphonys

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:55 am

slofstra wrote:
niper wrote:Sorry,Jochum's Brahms !
Have you noticed that there is also a DG Boehm set at low cost? I acquired this recently, but haven't had a change to listen yet. It is very well regarded though.
Like Bohm's Beethoven(3,6,9 sym),Bruckner(4,7 sym),Wagner ring and other opera disc(Flying Dutchman i got it),Mozart(sym),... Will see...

Jack Kelso
Posts: 3004
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Mannheim, Germany

Post by Jack Kelso » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:20 am

I can't agree with RebLem that the 1st Symphony is the one most open to different interpretations.

I'd say that of the 3rd, since only a few conductors seem to have gotten it right (NO, Bernstein is not one of them---he kills the first movement by dragging it to death!). Reiner/Chicago is STILL in a class by itself. Also Böhm and Kubelik are very fine.

For the 1st, Giulini/Philharmonia or Karajan/Vienna Phil are superb choices. I saw Eugen Jochum/Amsterdam Concertgebouw play it live in L.A. circa 1961----and it didn't get a good review.....too jerky, not solid enough. Maybe he improved his grip on the score after that.

Solti for the 2nd is a good choice, but I love Bruno Walter's (actually, for all 4!). Regretfully, he didn't do the Schumann 4 or more Bruckner.

Carlos Kleiber's 4th is (along with Walter's and Szell's) perhaps the finest of all 4th's.

There are unquestionably many newer recordings out there which I've not yet heard----but you definitely can't go wrong with those I've mentioned.

Really---be careful with Bernstein's Brahms (and Schumann, too). He can be a bit "over-the-top" with those composers.

Tschüß,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

brahms

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:30 am

Lance wrote:Niper, I'm glad you finally made it here. We hope you enjoy your visits and welcome you to our site.

As for Brahms symphonies, the choices are huge, and probably confusing. These are some of the "complete" sets I would heartily recommend. It doesn't get much better than some of them, actually.
  • Sony Classical 45823 - George Szell, conductor - Cleveland Orchestra (also includes Haydn Variations, Tragic and Academic Festival Overtures). The catalogue number may have been deleted or replaced with another edition so check this one out carefully.
  • EMI 52321 [6 CDs] - Wilhelm Furtwängler, conductor - various orchestra. Also includes the Violin Concerto (with Menuhin), A German Requiem, the "Double" Concerto, and some Hungarian Dances.
  • EMI 65513 - Wilhelm Furtwängler, conductor, BPO/VPO, also includes Beethoven Coriolan and Leonore Overtures.
  • RCA 60325 [Toscanini Edition] - Arturo Toscanini, conductor - NBC Symphony (this may have been reissued with a new number).
  • Testament 3167 [3 CDs] - Arturo Toscanini, conductor - BBC Symphony Orchestra (includes Haydn Variations and Tragic Overture), all live, England, 1952)
  • MCA 9817 [2 CDs] (probabaly reissued under another number) - William Steinberg, conductor - Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. Steinberg was a superb conductor and brought the PSO to new heights. A Germanic craftsman, I have always loved these performances.
  • Mercury 434.380 [2 CDS - Antal Dorati, conductor - London Symphony Orchestra (Nos. 1, 3, 4; Minneapolis Symphony (No. 2). Superb readings, wonderful sound, and underrated in my opinion.
[/list] I tend to enjoy the more historical performances of this repertoire. Technologies have considerably made these more listenable without altering the original content and musical perceptions. Of course, this list could go on and on with more contemporary recordings. And once you start digging into individual performances, there are just countless ones you will want. Good luck in your endeavors![/color]
Thank you Lance for fast reaction.
I'm gonna order from Music&Arts Furwangler box set ,probably Szell cos he is very much like a Toscanini with strictly structure(he is safe bet whether we talk about Beethoven(little dry sound on sony box?!,Mozart,...)
Mercury(DECCA)!!!. What a great label.I'v got cca 40 Mercury disc's.What a sound !!!!! Fifty years old sound,but very much fresh as they made yesterday. Dorati is geat conductor, but under-provision! Try his Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture/Capriccio Italien/Beethoven: Wellington's Victory ,or The Sleeping Beauty,or Tchaikovsky: Symphonies Nos. 1-6,or Dvorák Cello Concerto in B minor, Op. 104; Bruch Kol Nidrei; Tchaikovsky Variations on a Rococo Theme / Dorati, Starker, London Symphony Orchestra (3-Channel and Stereo Hybrid SACD), or Rachmaninoff: Piano Concertos Nos. 2 & 3 with Janis,...(plenty of lovely music). You just remind me how good all round player he was! Thanks
On TESTAMENT now you can buy only 1st(philharmonia orc) and 2nd(BBC orc.)

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:41 am

Jack Kelso wrote:I can't agree with RebLem that the 1st Symphony is the one most open to different interpretations.

I'd say that of the 3rd, since only a few conductors seem to have gotten it right (NO, Bernstein is not one of them---he kills the first movement by dragging it to death!). Reiner/Chicago is STILL in a class by itself. Also Böhm and Kubelik are very fine.

For the 1st, Giulini/Philharmonia or Karajan/Vienna Phil are superb choices. I saw Eugen Jochum/Amsterdam Concertgebouw play it live in L.A. circa 1961----and it didn't get a good review.....too jerky, not solid enough. Maybe he improved his grip on the score after that.

Solti for the 2nd is a good choice, but I love Bruno Walter's (actually, for all 4!). Regretfully, he didn't do the Schumann 4 or more Bruckner.

Carlos Kleiber's 4th is (along with Walter's and Szell's) perhaps the finest of all 4th's.

There are unquestionably many newer recordings out there which I've not yet heard----but you definitely can't go wrong with those I've mentioned.

Really---be careful with Bernstein's Brahms (and Schumann, too). He can be a bit "over-the-top" with those composers.

Tschüß,
Jack
Bernstein remind me on Karajan about question of fame. I like Bernstein tv show's for kid's(lovely) and i like his adagios(Mahler 5th and Barber for now),but they can compare to Furtwangler,Toscanini.Szell,Klemperer,...Sorry fan's of BK

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:40 am

niper wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:I can't agree with RebLem that the 1st Symphony is the one most open to different interpretations.

I'd say that of the 3rd, since only a few conductors seem to have gotten it right (NO, Bernstein is not one of them---he kills the first movement by dragging it to death!). Reiner/Chicago is STILL in a class by itself. Also Böhm and Kubelik are very fine.

For the 1st, Giulini/Philharmonia or Karajan/Vienna Phil are superb choices. I saw Eugen Jochum/Amsterdam Concertgebouw play it live in L.A. circa 1961----and it didn't get a good review.....too jerky, not solid enough. Maybe he improved his grip on the score after that.

Solti for the 2nd is a good choice, but I love Bruno Walter's (actually, for all 4!). Regretfully, he didn't do the Schumann 4 or more Bruckner.

Carlos Kleiber's 4th is (along with Walter's and Szell's) perhaps the finest of all 4th's.

There are unquestionably many newer recordings out there which I've not yet heard----but you definitely can't go wrong with those I've mentioned.

Really---be careful with Bernstein's Brahms (and Schumann, too). He can be a bit "over-the-top" with those composers.

Tschüß,
Jack
Bernstein remind me on Karajan about question of fame. I like Bernstein tv show's for kid's(lovely) and i like his adagios(Mahler 5th and Barber for now),but they can compare to Furtwangler,Toscanini.Szell,Klemperer,...Sorry fan's of BK
Sorry for this global statement(not that kind of guy),but BK(Bernstein-Karajan) fan's are little bit agressiv when they talk about them,like nobody else exist on music planet?! Like them both,but exactly that attitude dislake me for researching BK records.
e.g. Long time ago I open amazon rewiev for Mahler sym. and there was a lot Bernstein interpretation. Searching forward I find Walter,Klemperer,Barbiroli,Zenden,... Something similarly with actors.Brad Pitt,Cloney,... What about Jefrey Rush,Gary Oldman,Kevin Spacey and other without fame aureola .Problem is that they are much better than pretty face boys. Once more big sorry for BK fans cos i'can't help myself to say few words about fame and"fame".

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Re: brahms

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:45 am

On TESTAMENT now you can buy only 1st(philharmonia orc) and 2nd(BBC orc.)[/quote] For Lance abot Toscanini(Brahms) on TESTAMENT

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:59 am

Heck148 wrote:the Brahms symphonies aree standard repertoire and have been performed and recorded by the world's greatest conductors and finest orchestras.

for complete sets I'd highly recommend

Toscannini/NBC
Szell/Cleveland
Solti/CSO

Toscanini and Solti are terrific throughout the series esp. Szell is very good also, outstanding #3

but there are individual performances thatmust be included as well

for #1
Wand/CSO/RCA

for #2
Monteux/LSO
Reiner/NYPO
Bernstein/NYPO

#3
Reiner/CSO
Stock/CSO

#4 - toss-up between
Toscanini/NBC
Reiner/Royal PO

with Solti/CSO a very strong entry as well.
After music from Cubrick/Copola films introduce me classical music,Reiner(CSO) and his Scheherazade make me a prisoner of classical music . Only on Chesky label I see Brahms 4th sym. with Reiner and Royal phil. Where do you find this one with CSO?!

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:17 am

[. Where do you find this one with CSO?![/quote] This one on RCA(Brahms 3rd sym.) No more on RCA catalog.

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:18 am

niper wrote:[. Where do you find this one with CSO?!
This one on RCA(Brahms 3rd sym.) No more on RCA catalog.[/quote] Or amazon.com?! Wher do you find it ?!

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:24 am

[quote="

For the 1st, Giulini/Philharmonia or Karajan/Vienna Phil are superb choices. I saw Eugen Jochum/Amsterdam Concertgebouw play it live in L.A. circa 1961----and it didn't get a good review.....too jerky, not solid enough. Maybe he improved his grip on the score after that.


Jack[/quote]Saw Jochum live or live on dvd?! How old you are(ha-ha)?! I thought that I 'm to old(30's),or... Big thanks Jack

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:27 am

Thank you all very much for lovely "wellcome" words on this forum!!!

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:57 am

What about Kempe(TESTAMENT) or Klemperer(EMI)?

Heck148
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:30 am

Jack Kelso wrote:I'd say that of the 3rd, since only a few conductors seem to have gotten it right (NO, Bernstein is not one of them---he kills the first movement by dragging it to death!). Reiner/Chicago is STILL in a class by itself. Also Böhm and Kubelik are very fine.
right, #3 is the most difficult. the 1st mvt is notoriously hard to conduct - the 6/4 rhythm must move along in 2 beats per bar, but the rhythm is quite intricate, with the 8th note patterns often starting n the "middle of the beat". the sub-division must be carefully observed, but the momentum cannot be sacrificed for rhythmic fussiness...tough one to pull off.
the last mvt presents some real challenges also.
Really---be careful with Bernstein's Brahms (and Schumann, too). He can be a bit "over-the-top" with those composers.
His Schumann is quite good - esp #s 3 and 4. top of the line...

Lenny's Brahms is uneven - #2 is excellent, 3 and 1 OK, 4 is not good.

Heck148
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:40 am

niper wrote:
<<Reiner/Royal PO>>

After music from Cubrick/Copola films introduce me classical music,Reiner(CSO) and his Scheherazade make me a prisoner of classical music . Only on Chesky label I see Brahms 4th sym. with Reiner and Royal phil. Where do you find this one with CSO?!
Reiner did not record #4 with the CSO, just Royal PO. it is really superb.
He did record #3 with the CSO, and he recorded #2 with NYPO from a live performance from 3/60. It used to be available on Arlecchino [NA at present??] and is now available on a NYPO multi-disc archive set...
this is a wonderful live performance, really exciting - big-boned, brawny and rousing...I cannot imagine what it must have sounded like "live", in the hall.

if you like Brahms orchestral works - by all means check out Tragic Overture [Reiner/CSO and Toscanini/NBC are outstanding] and Academic Festival Overture [Monteux/LSO coupled with the wonderful Sym#2]

Jack Kelso
Posts: 3004
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Mannheim, Germany

Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:32 am

Heck148 wrote:
Really---be careful with Bernstein's Brahms (and Schumann, too). He can be a bit "over-the-top" with those composers.
His Schumann is quite good - esp #s 3 and 4. top of the line...

Lenny's Brahms is uneven - #2 is excellent, 3 and 1 OK, 4 is not good.
Bernstein is excellent with Schumann's 2nd and very good with the 4th. But he blows the "Spring" all out of proportion (as he does with Brahms' 3rd).

Heck---do you R E A L L Y like the coda of the "Rhenish" as Bernstein does it?!? I think he ruins a potentially superb recording by rushing through it like a 10-alarm fire. No one else does this. Giulini L.A./Phil and Karajan/Berlin Phil (also Jan Krenz/Stuttgart Radio-Sym.) are the best IMHO. This last-mentioned is (along with Karajan) the only recording I know where the "Feierlich" 4th mvt is done to perfection.

Tschüß!
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:27 am

niper wrote:What about Kempe(TESTAMENT) or Klemperer(EMI)?
Well,does someone listen some of this guy's interpretation of Brahms(1st sym )?!

Heck148
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:40 am

Jack Kelso wrote:

Heck---do you R E A L L Y like the coda of the "Rhenish" as Bernstein does it?!? I think he ruins a potentially superb recording by rushing through it like a 10-alarm fire.
the very ending?? mvt IV?? Hmmmm...
I find it a pretty fine rendition throughout...

HIs Schum #2 is OK, but I like Reiner and Szell [the earlier Szell {11/52} is preferable] - alot better, so is Barenboim/CSO.

Ken
Posts: 2511
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:17 am
Location: Düsseldorf, Nordrhein-Westfalen

Post by Ken » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:11 am

niper wrote:What about Kempe(TESTAMENT) or Klemperer(EMI)?
I've recently ordered the Klemperer/Philadelphia recording of the 1st on EMI after having read several excellent reviews of the disc. I will pass on my reaction when it arrives in a few days.
Du sollst schlechte Compositionen weder spielen, noch, wenn du nicht dazu gezwungen bist, sie anhören.

Ken
Posts: 2511
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 6:17 am
Location: Düsseldorf, Nordrhein-Westfalen

Post by Ken » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:15 am

Oh, and I meant "Philharmonia", not "Philadelphia." Gimme a break, it's Friday. ;)
Du sollst schlechte Compositionen weder spielen, noch, wenn du nicht dazu gezwungen bist, sie anhören.

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:55 am

keninottawa wrote:Oh, and I meant "Philharmonia", not "Philadelphia." Gimme a break, it's Friday. ;)
I think there actually is a Klemperer Philadelphia Brahms 3rd, in addition to a Beethoven 3 and 6 and a couple other things floating around out there on various minor labels or via download. They are live performances taken from his early 60s guest appearances in Philadelphia.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

RebLem
Posts: 9117
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 1:06 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA 87112, 2 blocks west of the Breaking Bad carwash.
Contact:

Post by RebLem » Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:18 pm

niper wrote:
niper wrote:What about Kempe(TESTAMENT) or Klemperer(EMI)?
Well,does someone listen some of this guy's interpretation of Brahms(1st sym )?!
I recently acquired both the Kempe and Klemperer sets of the Brahms symphonies, but I haven't listened to any of them yet. I will probably get around to them sometime in the next year.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

jserraglio
Posts: 6280
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Post by jserraglio » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:13 pm

This set on OperaShare might tempt someone who wants to get to know the works.

BRAHMS COMPLETE SYMPHONIES - LA PHILARMONIC LIVE RECORDING

LA Philharmonic
at Walt Disney Concert Hall

Christoph von Dohnányi, conductor

Brahms:

Sinfonia No 1
Sinfonia No 2
Sinfonia No 3
Sinfonia No 4
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jserraglio
Posts: 6280
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Post by jserraglio » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:17 am

Another complete set on OperaShare that might be worth exploring?
BarryZ praised one of these a while back (the 2nd?). It's on my want-to-hear list with the Dohnanyi:

Karajan Conducts Brahms' Four Symphonies, Salzburg 1983

JOHANNES BRAHMS
The Four Symphonies

Salzburg 1983

Herbert von Karajan
The Berlin Philharmonic
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:24 am

jserraglio wrote:Another complete set on OperaShare that might be worth exploring?
BarryZ praised one of these a while back (the 2nd?). It's on my want-to-hear list with the Dohnanyi:
I've never been a big fan of live records or of MP3s, but I'm starting to change my mind. The sound on some of these MP3s is often pretty good considering the source and the compression.
Yes. It was the 2nd I praised. It's one of the best I've heard. If I ever get my D-drive fixed, I'll post the live mid-70s cycle I have by Karajan and the BPO. It's got Furtwangler-like intensity.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Jack Kelso
Posts: 3004
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Mannheim, Germany

Post by Jack Kelso » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:16 am

Heck148 wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:

Heck---do you R E A L L Y like the coda of the "Rhenish" as Bernstein does it?!? I think he ruins a potentially superb recording by rushing through it like a 10-alarm fire.
the very ending?? mvt IV?? Hmmmm...
I find it a pretty fine rendition throughout...

HIs Schum #2 is OK, but I like Reiner and Szell [the earlier Szell {11/52} is preferable] - alot better, so is Barenboim/CSO.
No, it's the 5th movement (Lebhaft)---the coda of the entire symphony where Bernstein suddenly goes into overdrive and degrades the noble coda by racing through it. And he does this with N.Y. Phil as well as Vienna! Left a really bad taste in my mouth.....

His Schumann 2nd's (with N.Y. AND Vienna!) are regarded as among the finest available. Szell's is too *** for me---and he thinned out the orchestration after overdosing on Mahler-tablets.

What's this about Reiner doing Schumann's Second?!? Never heard of that one....must be ancient. And you like Barenboim's? I gave my copy away after I discovered Herreweghe's and Levine's. Now THAT's the way this (2nd) symphony should sound!

Tschüß!
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

niper
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:36 pm
Location: Split

Post by niper » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:27 am

Find a Szell+NDR(brahms 4th+mozart/sym 40.) on NDR/EMI classic.Does someone listen this one?!

Jack Kelso
Posts: 3004
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:52 pm
Location: Mannheim, Germany

Post by Jack Kelso » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:48 am

niper wrote:Find a Szell+NDR(brahms 4th+mozart/sym 40.) on NDR/EMI classic.Does someone listen this one?!
Is there any reason to think that this recording should be "finer" than Szell's with Cleveland...?!

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

Heck148
Posts: 3568
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:41 am

Jack Kelso wrote: No, it's the 5th movement (Lebhaft)---the coda of the entire symphony where Bernstein suddenly goes into overdrive and degrades the noble coda by racing through it. And he does this with N.Y. Phil as well as Vienna! Left a really bad taste in my mouth.....
I like the way Lenny does Schumann #3, esp the NYPO one.
His Schumann 2nd's (with N.Y. AND Vienna!) are regarded as among the finest available. Szell's is too *** for me
Bernstein's is OK - beautiful oboe solo in slow mvt...but mvt II does not "sparkle", the strings sound thick and heavy..

I like Szell's earlier one - preferable to the later one issued with the complete set.
What's this about Reiner doing Schumann's Second?!? Never heard of that one....must be ancient. And you like Barenboim's?
It's available from the CSO directly - "Reiner Era" archival set Vol.1 [2 discs] from 1957 - live. great performance - my favorite Schumann symphony performance...

I 'm very fond of Barenboim's CSO/DG Schumann set - along with Bernstein, it's my favorite complete Schumann. there's not a loser in the bunch..I much prefer it to his recent Berlin Statskapelle recordings
the "Spring" is my favorite version...
check out Sym 2/II!! the strings just zip thru it with amazing agility - electrifying...Reiner and Szell are good here too, but Barenboim's takes the prize....

rogch
Posts: 442
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:10 am
Location: Tønsberg, Norway

Post by rogch » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:15 am

I consider the Berlin Philharmonic the orchestra when it comes to Brahms symphonies. Not only do they have a long tradition with these works, they have also presented quite different interpretations: Furtwängler, Karajan, Jochum, Abbado and Harnoncourt have all played Brahms with the Berlin PO.

I share the enthusiasm for some of the old masters like Furtwängler, Toscanini and Reiner. But Claudio Abbado's recordings surely deserve to be mentioned too? They are on four full-prize CDs, but some of the fillers are very interesting (apart from the standard overtures and Haydn variations there are some terrific vocal works).

I have not heard the set with Kurt Sanderling and the Staatskapelle Dresden, but would i would be surprised if that was not a great set.

If you have a set with modern sound quality it is of course easier to accept the more limited sound quality on older recordings where the artistic qualities can be unique. Willem Mengelberg and the Concertgebouw Orchestra on Naxos historical gives excellent value for money. But that is unfortunately not available for sale in the US, but you can order over the internet i assume.

.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests