Sergeant Pepper's in the classical repertoire?

[slofstra]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here.
1) The reason Sergeant Pepper's is considered the greatest album in the pop field (at least by some critics) is that it effectively blends orchestral and pop/rock genres. I'm not on the limb yet. The much heralded electronic and studio techniques don't amount to much; really it was the orchestration that made this music interesting.
2) So why don't symphony orchestras play it?
3) The NYT ran an interesting article couple of Sundays ago on recent pop/classical crossover efforts on the concert scene. The article discussed symphony orchestra concerts with Ben Folds and also with the Decembrists. The point made was that these artists are not just using the orchestra as background string sections, but re-arranging their music to make full use of the orchestra. Ben Folds has done this to very good effect on a DVD I have - with the Perth, Australia Symphony. Various local arrangers were employed to score Folds' music for the orchestra, generally very successfully.
4) But what about the Boston Pops playing Sergeant Pepper's. Could you take this seriously?

[jbuck919]

I understand, or at least think I do, the need of people to find things in pop culture that are of value. I still watch and play along with Jeopardy practically every night, and there are always one or two pop cult categories that are my undoing but that great players of such a game who know all the serious stuff as well can manage. I also coached my school's championship Academic Team in Maryland. They were my pride and joy, and some of them too knew and liked things like Sergeant Peppers, when Beethoven would have been a mystery to them. (Speaking of Jeopardy, any classical music category, however elementary, is usually the last one chosen and is often not completed.)

None of this changes the fact that the Beatles cannot be taken seriously as art. Like them if you must, but they are pop schlock, and can never be anything else.

[Haydnseek]

In a very early episode of Doctor Who from around 1965 a girl from the far future who has come to contemporary England sees The Beatles on TV. When told who they are she remarks "Oh! I didn't know they played classical music.

[diegobueno]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here.
1) The reason Sergeant Pepper's is considered the greatest album in the pop field (at least by some critics) is that it effectively blends orchestral and pop/rock genres. I'm not on the limb yet. The much heralded electronic and studio techniques don't amount to much; really it was the orchestration that made this music interesting.
2) So why don't symphony orchestras play it?

Because it's not orchestral music. Sergeant Pepper, like any rock album, is essentially an electronic composition. That is, its definitive representation is not in a score to be reproduced by anyone who plays the instruments called for, but is set down on the recorded tracks by John, Paul, George, Ringo and George Martin. The Beatles' voices, the particular inflections and phrasings they made in singing, George's sitar licks, the recorded crowd noises at the beginning, the dogs barking in "Good morning", the many times overdubbed orchestral scales in "A Day in the Life" as well as the closely miked and artificially sustained E major chord that ends it all, these are all part and parcel of the music. If you don't have them you don't have Sergeant Pepper.

Certainly many of the songs have been arranged for the Boston Pops to entertain the blue-hairs, but you know it's just not the same thing.

[Chalkperson]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here.
4) But what about the Boston Pops playing Sergeant Pepper's. Could you take this seriously?

Absolutely Not...but I will tell you this story...

About twenty two or so years ago I was comissioned by George Martin to take his portrait, he had not had a new one done in many years, and his hair was going from Grey to White, I rang his Assistant to agree a time and place, it was agreed to be at Air Studios at 3pm, Goerge was busy till then we were told...after turning up with the mountain of gear we needed to shoot what would turn out to be a simple (but elegant) headshot, we were in the Pool Room when George walked in, he apologized for being late and asked if we wanted to join him as he had a little 'work' to do, turned out he needed to listen to the Original Master Tapes of Sergeant Pepper in order to approve it for release on the, then new, compact disc medium...there were the two old timers from the reception desk at Abbey Road studios and they had the masters under their arm which had 'Sgt Pepper' written in pencil on the box...we went to the control room and Starr and I listened with George as he played the whole thing thru once, just once, before approving it, just after it had finished playing he looked at us, asked if we could wait just a few minutes more before starting to take his portrait, he went to the mixing desk, cut out all the tracks on 'Day in the Life, except one and we listened to just John Lennon's voice folowed by the nonsense at the end of side two which in fact that went on much longer than on the LP, once done he gave the OK, the guards left with the masters and we started to take our pictures, pretty interesting job we had way back then...

[Barry]

Great story, Chalk.

Before crossing over to classical, I was a major Beatlemaniac for years.

There actually is a Beatle tribute group that precisely re-produces the songs from that period in a live setting; with the same arrangements, sound effects, etc. The bass player had been in David Letterman's band for years. Here they are on Letterman playing I Am the Walrus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lknCpGbsJc

[Corlyss_D]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here.
1) The reason Sergeant Pepper's is considered the greatest album in the pop field (at least by some critics) is that it effectively blends orchestral and pop/rock genres. I'm not on the limb yet. The much heralded electronic and studio techniques don't amount to much; really it was the orchestration that made this music interesting.
2) So why don't symphony orchestras play it?

Much as I love it, what Martin did was raise an art form to something better than it was and the consciousness of its fans to something beyond the monotonous lowest common denominator of a guitar, a bass, and drums. Having symphony orchestras play it would expose just how thin the material really is.

[Wallingford]

I recall one former member here, a few years back, saying Sgt.Pepper was "through-composed." As it is with all other claims to its "symphonic" nature or scope, it's totally inaccurate. When recording commenced in late '66, with a vague concept in the group's mind relating to its childhood, the songs "Penny Lane" and "Strawberry Fields" were the first completed (along with "A Day In The Life"): these two songs were put out first, on a single. Over the intervening 3-4 months other songs were fashioned that somehow, inexplicably, managed to fall into some semblance of place. (One Beatle said the album "generated its own togetherness.")

It takes little away from the fact I don't consider it as masterfully done as Revolver, which came before it--just about every single song stands on its own, with the exception of two weak Lennon songs, "And Your Bird Can Sing" and "Dr. Robert"; or Abbey Road, with that amazing cluster of tiny song fragments (mainly McCartney's handiwork) that make up that album's second half. Both these are pop music achievements (aided in no small measure by Martin's expertise) that far outstrip Pepper.

[slofstra]

I didn't think I'd get that much response! Actually, Rubber Soul and Revolver were my choice in those days too (British line up, not Capitol) - or the White Album. These days I play '1' once in a while (or the red/ blue compilations) and I'm good for a couple of years again.
But what made me think of it was that on the last long drive back from Kingston where my daughter went to school, Sgt Pepper's was played on the radio, in its entirety. My thought then was that the orchestral arrangements really made the album, barking dogs not withstanding. Many of the songs are really not that good as songs (Lovely Rita, Mr. Kite, for example).

Although at first blush it doesn't make much sense - still, I'm not sure.

Ray Davies and the Kinks, maybe? Uhh, Tubular Bells?

[slofstra]

I understand, or at least think I do, the need of people to find things in pop culture that are of value. I still watch and play along with Jeopardy practically every night, and there are always one or two pop cult categories that are my undoing but that great players of such a game who know all the serious stuff as well can manage. I also coached my school's championship Academic Team in Maryland. They were my pride and joy, and some of them too knew and liked things like Sergeant Peppers, when Beethoven would have been a mystery to them. (Speaking of Jeopardy, any classical music category, however elementary, is usually the last one chosen and is often not completed.)

None of this changes the fact that the Beatles cannot be taken seriously as art. Like them if you must, but they are pop schlock, and can never be anything else.

How things change. In my youth (Father William replied to his son) , we had a local TV show called 'Reach for the Top', hosted by, of all people, Alex Trebek. Trebek started his career with this inter-high school competition on Canadian TV. In any case, the show always had a segment in which students had to identify various classical pieces or works of great art. The students did very well with it.

Your post also makes me wonder why I would even care about this. The question just presented itself, as I described above. To tell you the truth, it wouldn't be for me personally. Our symphony has something called 'Electric Thursdays' in which they perform variously themed rock music crossovers (Supertramp, for example). I've never gone, but they are very well attended. I don't even like jazz crossovers all that much - the odd time I've been subjected to one. Perhaps part of the reason is that classical musicians have little sense of rhythm, most of them couldn't do pop anyway. I must say that I did like the Ben Folds work though.

[Chalkperson]

Much as I love it, what Martin did was raise an art form to something better than it was...

Having symphony orchestras play it would expose just how thin the material really is.

Very True, the Beatles never really worked as Classical Music, or more correctly, Orchestral Music, probably because Martin saw them as a string quartet, and then added a real string quartet whenever he had the chance...Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin worked quite well, orchestrally speaking, but there was a really good Doors CD that Kennedy (you have to love old Nigel) did called The Doors Concerto, sloftra I think you may like that...

[Chalkperson]

Our symphony has something called 'Electric Thursdays' in which they perform variously themed rock music crossovers (Supertramp, for example). I've never gone, but they are very well attended..

I think the correct term for that is Pomp Rock...

[absinthe]

Sgt Pepper is rightly as classic just as P Floyd's Atom Heart Mother and a couple of others, because they ARE classics, their relevence securely tied up with the 60s culture which was a revolution, I'm told, that should not be underestimated. The merit of this music is that the Beatles truly pushed out the boundaries of "pop music" like no one else had or could, possibly because they included singer-songwriters (a snub to the mechanics of the music industry of the time, if ever). The did this with only an excellent sense of music - they had already proved that you don't need an academic musical education to be able to write good music.

Unfortunately, the musical revolution/upheaval stopped abruptly with Sgt Pepper. The Beatles reverted to dross rock thereafter and fell from the scene. It's their output up to Sgt Pepper that still sells.

[Corlyss_D]

My thought then was that the orchestral arrangements really made the album.

I think that was Martin's idea too.

[jbuck919]

Here's the story I forgot to tell (I must be losing my mind not to have remembered this one). In the year when I had my two best Academic Team students ever, they were best friends and were some kind of collective entity in terms of how they performed. At an interscholastic tournament, in the final game, which we won, one of the categories was, state whether the following person was on the cover of Sergeant Peppers, a Nobel Prize winner, both, or neither (once again, dear people I am not making this up). Well, my very best player knew all the Nobel Prize winners, and my second best player was one of those inexplicable Beatles fans, and they knocked them off at warp speed as though this was what they had been born to do. There was not a jaw in the room that was above waist level, except mine. I, the coach of these guys, was too busy holding back tears.

(If anyone is interested, I am still in touch with those boys, to whom I was, I flatter myself, an important informal mentor. One of them has completed a Ph.D. in philosophy, the other, a Ph.D in physics.)

[Chalkperson]

My thought then was that the orchestral arrangements really made the album.

I think that was Martin's idea too.

A great deal of it was George Martin's idea, I did a lot of work for Paul in the Seventies, and the only person on the planet that could tell him what to do was George Martin, it's a pity he did not listen to Martin when he told him to stop making bad/lame/pointless records, his 'Starbucks CD' is probably his worst ever, and he's put out more crap than anybody...

[slofstra]

Here's the story I forgot to tell (I must be losing my mind not to have remembered this one). In the year when I had my two best Academic Team students ever, they were best friends and were some kind of collective entity in terms of how they performed. At an interscholastic tournament, in the final game, which we won, one of the categories was, state whether the following person was on the cover of Sergeant Peppers, a Nobel Prize winner, both, or neither (once again, dear people I am not making this up). Well, my very best player knew all the Nobel Prize winners, and my second best player was one of those inexplicable Beatles fans, and they knocked them off at warp speed as though this was what they had been born to do. There was not a jaw in the room that was above waist level, except mine. I, the coach of these guys, was too busy holding back tears.

(If anyone is interested, I am still in touch with those boys, to whom I was, I flatter myself, an important informal mentor. One of them has completed a Ph.D. in philosophy, the other, a Ph.D in physics.)

Holy Toledo, do they still work together now? They've probably solved the mysteries of the universe by now. (Of course, we know the answer is 42).

[slofstra]

Sgt Pepper is rightly as classic just as P Floyd's Atom Heart Mother and a couple of others, because they ARE classics, their relevence securely tied up with the 60s culture which was a revolution, I'm told, that should not be underestimated. The merit of this music is that the Beatles truly pushed out the boundaries of "pop music" like no one else had or could, possibly because they included singer-songwriters (a snub to the mechanics of the music industry of the time, if ever). The did this with only an excellent sense of music - they had already proved that you don't need an academic musical education to be able to write good music.

Unfortunately, the musical revolution/upheaval stopped abruptly with Sgt Pepper. The Beatles reverted to dross rock thereafter and fell from the scene. It's their output up to Sgt Pepper that still sells.

No, I don't buy that last bit. After Sgt Pepper, came the White Album, Abbey Road, and ahem, Let it Be. Two thirds of which still sell very well.
And the musical revolution had just begun, with everything from Amon Duul to Frank Zappa to follow.
Now that I think of it, the only truly successful classical cross over band was Ekseption.

[hangos]

Having just read these postings on Pepper, I watched Hendrix distort the Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock and it just dawned on me - this guy was performing pure electronic music in just as daring a way as Stockhausen, but with raw emotion. If this is not true electronic music, what is? Pepper was arty but urbane - this is the real deal delivered live with consummate skill
Martin

[jbuck919]

Having just read these postings on Pepper, I watched Hendrix distort the Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock and it just dawned on me - this guy was performing pure electronic music in just as daring a way as Stockhausen, but with raw emotion. If this is not true electronic music, what is? Pepper was arty but urbane - this is the real deal delivered live with consummate skill
Martin

Yes, and we know what happened to Hendrix (not to mention John Lennon). However, I am not trying to be contrary, and think I get your basic point. I was 30 miles from Woodstock, you know, and only did not attend because I was the most remarkable combination of a nerd and a geek you could imagine (and still am). Plus, even if I had been interested, my parents would have hog-tied me to prevent it.

I could raise the issue of how the National Anthem should be performed (always by a military band) and is often mis-performed (solo voices singing into a mike at a stadium), but that would take us rather far afield, so to speak.

[slofstra]

Much as I love it, what Martin did was raise an art form to something better than it was...

Having symphony orchestras play it would expose just how thin the material really is.

Very True, the Beatles never really worked as Classical Music, or more correctly, Orchestral Music, probably because Martin saw them as a string quartet, and then added a real string quartet whenever he had the chance...Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin worked quite well, orchestrally speaking, but there was a really good Doors CD that Kennedy (you have to love old Nigel) did called The Doors Concerto, sloftra I think you may like that...

That's an interesting comment. I did hear about the Doors Concerto, worth a listen?. Now that you mention these examples, that's the kind of stuff they do on these Electric Thursdays - what we used to call, progressive rock then (and pomp rock, now, evidently, will there be dry ice?) But I have little respect for this kind of stuff these days. Even back then I had no use for 'Dark Side of the Moon' - very pedestrian, and I thought Floyd had sold out. 'Meddle' and 'Ummagumma', that was cool, but I've not heard it in 20-30 years.
Someone mentioned 'composed through' rock music, and the only one I remember doing that was Ray Davies, with mixed results. Perhaps Quadrophenia.

So, I wonder why this kind of stuff might work as orchestral music. I fear that you must just come out with something as dismal as a Pops concert - bringing together the lowest common denominator of two genres - the worst of the worst - just what the PUBLIC wants to hear. Leroy Anderson out the back door, and Jim Morrison in the front, err, door.

'I am the walrus' - what a piece of crap, was, and is.

I have to play McCartney's Standing Stone again. And, Working Classical, surely, would be a good litmus test on this question of orchestrating the Beatles. (Only played the CD once, and I remember being underwhelmed). Chalkie, I know you have little respect for McCartney's lack of formal musical knowledge. He must play fairly well by ear, though, I would take it.

Somewhere in all these amino acids must lurk the potential for some genius to pull together something worthwhile. The kind of alt-pop orchestra that played Brian Wilson's 'Smile' showed promise. Those guys were good. Brian Wilson, also, has a tremendous intuitive musical ability. The clips of him just noodling at the piano show him to have been a formidable talent.

[Corlyss_D]

it's a pity he did not listen to Martin when he told him to stop making bad/lame/pointless records, his 'Starbucks CD' is probably his worst ever, and he's put out more crap than anybody...

His best stuff was in concert with Lennon and he should have quit when the group broke up. I'm glad Ringo didn't have such pretensions. McCartney acts like an aging opera superstar that doesn't have sense enough to shut up and enjoy his accolades. Why he keeps going when he has nothing to say, when every venture is more embarrassing than the last, trying to be a classical composer when he ain't got it - very few have- is beyond me.

[Corlyss_D]

Somewhere in all these amino acids must lurk the potential for some genius to pull together something worthwhile.

Sorry, Henry. It's like cold fusion, or ion thrusters: maybe someday but not anytime soon. Why not explore a neglected French composer instead, like Reynaldo Hahn? Infinitely more rewarding . . .

[Chalkperson]

McCartney acts like an aging opera superstar that doesn't have sense enough to shut up and enjoy his accolades. Why he keeps going when he has nothing to say, when every venture is more embarrassing than the last, trying to be a classical composer when he ain't got it - very few have- is beyond me.

Ah, The Pavarotti of Rock, the only problem is that he does not Cancel his Performances.

[Wallingford]

Dunno.....with a small bit of deference to McCartney:

Much as I'm apathetic toward his so-called "classical" output (which he relies, of course, on outside arrangers to orchestrate): he HAS done better artistically (with or without George Martin) than the other Beatles--at least during his first few solo years. His Abbey Road-honed trick of wedging otherwise unrelated song fragments into a rather convincing whole kept him in good stead on the Ram, Red Rose Speedway, and (especially) Band On The Run albums.

The first two albums show him endearingly taking after his musical twin-brother born a month after him, Brian Wilson; even if, as with Wilson, the results are often little more than doodlings.

[Chalkperson]

And the musical revolution had just begun, with everything from Amon Duul to Frank Zappa to follow.

Zappa had already doing it for a while, The Mothers of Invention released their masterpiece 'Only In It For The Money' a parody of Sgt Pepper next, but Amon Duul, jeez, you will be mentioning Can, Faust or maybe even The Fugs next...

[Chalkperson]

I was 30 miles from Woodstock, you know, and only did not attend because I was the most remarkable combination of a nerd and a geek you could imagine (and still am).

Why let that stop you, you could have walked there, you were that close...after all I ran away to London with Rock Bands when I was 15, never to return home...

[Chalkperson]

I have to play McCartney's Standing Stone again. And, Working Classical, surely, would be a good litmus test on this question of orchestrating the Beatles. (Only played the CD once, and I remember being underwhelmed). Chalkie, I know you have little respect for McCartney's lack of formal musical knowledge. He must play fairly well by ear, though, I would take it.

Money can't buy you love, but it can buy Carl Davis (amongst others) to write your Classical Music for you...

[Corlyss_D]

Money can't buy you love, but it can buy Carl Davis (amongst others) to write your Classical Music for you...

Post of the day to ya, Chalkie. Davis is a sort of Ted Sorenson to McCartney's Kennedy, eh?

[slofstra]

Somewhere in all these amino acids must lurk the potential for some genius to pull together something worthwhile.

Sorry, Henry. It's like cold fusion, or ion thrusters: maybe someday but not anytime soon. Why not explore a neglected French composer instead, like Reynaldo Hahn? Infinitely more rewarding . . .

Oh, there's no regrets. These are just musings. Mind you there is a great deal of indie stuff I listen to. (Perhaps a thread on the pub side, sometime). Our youngest daughter has an incredible ear for that stuff. My rule is - only classical at home, or at work, but in the car anything goes.

[slofstra]

Dunno.....with a small bit of deference to McCartney:

Much as I'm apathetic toward his so-called "classical" output (which he relies, of course, on outside arrangers to orchestrate): he HAS done better artistically (with or without George Martin) than the other Beatles--at least during his first few solo years. His Abbey Road-honed trick of wedging otherwise unrelated song fragments into a rather convincing whole kept him in good stead on the Ram, Red Rose Speedway, and (especially) Band On The Run albums.

The first two albums show him endearingly taking after his musical twin-brother born a month after him, Brian Wilson; even if, as with Wilson, the results are often little more than doodlings.

I played RAM again a year or so ago. I still like it, even with Linda's singing.
But he did produce way too many 'silly love songs'. What's wrong with that? I'd like to know. Shoot, here he goes again.

The height of pretension though was publishing a book of poetry. I read a little in the bookshop - Can't Buy Me Credibility, but he sure tries.

[slofstra]

And the musical revolution had just begun, with everything from Amon Duul to Frank Zappa to follow.

Zappa had already doing it for a while, The Mothers of Invention released their masterpiece 'Only In It For The Money' a parody of Sgt Pepper next, but Amon Duul, jeez, you will be mentioning Can, Faust or maybe even The Fugs next... :lol:

I needed a 'Z'! Brown shoes don't make it. Smother that girl ... never mind. My brother (I have 3, this is another brother) is a reasonable guitarist, and had umpteen Amon Duul albums. They were an anarchist German rock band. His collection consisted entirely of bands without a following. If they achieved any kind of success he dumped the albums. Let's see - Kraftwerk, Egg, Audience, Family, Al Stewart (until he made it), Billy Joel (same thing), Barclay James Harvest, Gentle Giant ...

[Chalkperson]

The height of pretension though was publishing a book of poetry. I read a little in the bookshop - Can't Buy Me Credibility, but he sure tries.

Sorry slofstra, that's a well known UK/Ireland Income Tax Dodge, if you publish a book of poetry and have holdings in Ireland, you get the status of 'Artist' and you pay way less tax than a mere mortal or musician...

[slofstra]

The height of pretension though was publishing a book of poetry. I read a little in the bookshop - Can't Buy Me Credibility, but he sure tries.

Sorry slofstra, that's a well known UK/Ireland Income Tax Dodge, if you publish a book of poetry and have holdings in Ireland, you get the status of 'Artist' and you pay way less tax than a mere mortal or musician... :shock:

Yeah, but he actually wrote poetry (so-called) for the book. All he needed to do is hire an infinite number of monkeys to turn Monkberry Moon Delight into book length.

[karlhenning]

4) But what about the Boston Pops playing Sergeant Pepper's. Could you take this seriously?

Well, but consider; the Pops isn't about being taken seriously, not in that sense.

Cheers,
~Karl

[karlhenning]

I have to play McCartney's Standing Stone again.

Oh, no, you don't! :-)

[Chalkperson]

Yeah, but he actually wrote poetry (so-called) for the book. All he needed to do is hire an infinite number of monkeys to turn Monkberry Moon Delight into book length.

I know, and his awful paintings too, nobody stops him anymore, Linda was great at keeping him in check, on the road they had an extra large truck, to carry his ego...he used to produce a Fan Club Newspaper called 'Club Sandwich', it was so tacky because he was the 'editor' and Linda and I were 'Chief Photographers'...anyway enough Macca from me...let's get back to real music...

that said, it was cool on my first day at 'work' with him when he knocked out the chords to Martha my Dear on the Upright Piano at Abbey Road, just for me...

[greymouse]

I don't care for orchestras playing rock/pop music. I'm not sure why - it just always sounds really stuffy and goofy as all heck to me. I figure classical is meant to be classical, and rock is meant to be rock.

I do think it's great though for a rock band to be influenced by classical or vice versa if it manages to avoid the cheese factor.

[jbuck919]

I was 30 miles from Woodstock, you know, and only did not attend because I was the most remarkable combination of a nerd and a geek you could imagine (and still am).

Why let that stop you, you could have walked there, you were that close...after all I ran away to London with Rock Bands when I was 15, never to return home...

At the school I taught at in Maryland, one of the senior teachers had gone much further to attend Woodstock and picked up a hitchhiker, who turned out later to be hired by the same school. "Say, don't I know you?"