Anti-Beethovens

[BWV 1080]

Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.

[jbuck919]

Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.

Well, Steve, that is not anti-Beethoven, though you have in fact chosen a selection of more or less great composers who did an end run around any continuity stemming from him, and for many different reasons. Swerving does not mean ignoring, you know, and on your list, I doubt very much that Webern and Boulez would disagree with anything in this paragraph.

There is no virtue in ignoring, neglecting, or putting in the back pocket the heights of the classic art of all time, which is still so close in time to us that we can barely believe it, or comprehend a distance of ages. We will only keep it alive if we keep it in people's ears. There is no musical equivalent of a museum piece. All of them will crumble to dust, when music is theoretically immortal. On the other hand, a break in continuity would be death to the greatest art ever known. Beethoven wrote in a letter, I'm sorry I don't have the exact citation, something like "How will my music be known on Alpha Centauri?"

[BWV 1080]

Well, Steve, that is not anti-Beethoven, though you have in fact chosen a selection of more or less great composers who did an end run around any continuity stemming from him, and for many different reasons. Swerving does not mean ignoring, you know, and on your list, I doubt very much that Webern and Boulez would disagree with anything in this paragraph.

There is no virtue in ignoring, neglecting, or putting in the back pocket the heights of the classic art of all time, which is still so close in time to us that we can barely believe it, or comprehend a distance of ages. We will only keep it alive if we keep it in people's ears. There is no musical equivalent of a museum piece. All of them will crumble to dust, when music is theoretically immortal. On the other hand, a break in continuity would be death to the greatest art ever known. Beethoven wrote in a letter, I'm sorry I don't have the exact citation, something like "How will my music be known on Alpha Centauri?"

Surely there is nothing wrong with tolerating different musical aesthetics than Ludwigs? Or is that heresy? Of course no one is against Beethoven personally or against his legacy, it is only natural however that great artists look to do something different and not be beholden to his forms of expression.

[karlhenning]

John, it's time you learnt: great artists bridle against being advised what they "have to" do.

Not insignificantly, Beethoven was among them.

Cheers,
~Karl

[Sapphire]

An amusing thread title.

The only two on BWV's list I like are Chopin and Schumann, and I agree they are "Beeethoven cleansers". I'd add Tchaikovsky, and replace Debussy by Ravel. These four, together with Schubert, keep me happy when I'm not in a Beethoven-style mood.


Saphire

[Brahms]

You might want to avoid Brahms 1st Symphony .......

[BWV 1080]

You might want to avoid Brahms 1st Symphony .......

yeah, I will stick to op119

[BWV 1080]

Also, pretty much anything from Spain or Latin America. DeFalla is a good antidote to a Razumovsky overdose

[Sapphire]

Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire

[BWV 1080]

Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire

Well things are worse in the US, most private insurers have struck a deal with the Recording Industry Association of America to provide only overstocks of Yo Yo Ma crossover CD's to alleviate the conditions of BO (Beethoven Overdose)

[Chalkperson]

Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire

Don't forget what happens to Alex in A Clockwork Orange, he literally did throw up at the sound of his hero "The Glorious Ludwig Van"...

[Werner]

There is so much room for individual preferences in music that no one needs to be forced to like (or hate) any of the masters.

At the end of the day each of them will have their legacy intact (even Ludwig)

[BWV 1080]

Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire

Don't forget what happens to Alex in A Clockwork Orange, he literally did throw up at the sound of his hero "The Glorious Ludwig Van"...

Ah yes. Perhaps Rod could use a bit of the Ludovico treatment

[jbuck919]

Don't forget what happens to Alex in A Clockwork Orange, he literally did throw up at the sound of his hero "The Glorious Ludwig Van"...

That foolish movie is about an incorrigible hoodlum and employs the old sci-fi fall-back gimmick of mind control. It is not relevant to the topic.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. All the composers on Steve's list are in the same tradition. It is not to the point how a great Western composer after Brahms reacted to Beethoven, including ignoring him entirely. I also doubt very much that Picasso was seriously influenced by Rembrandt. The point is continuity of art within a cultural framework, something that could all too easily disappear.

[Corlyss_D]

Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.


Saphire

Post of the Day Award to ya, Saph.

[Opus132]

Surely there is nothing wrong with tolerating different musical aesthetics than Ludwigs?

At the expense of being intolerant towards musical aesthetics closer to those of Beethoven? We had that going with Paul already, it wasn't fun, why follow on his foot steps?

At any rate, nice list of composers, other then Boulez, Messiaen and Carter (yack on all three).

[srappoport]

Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.

I am trying to figure out what you have against Beethoven. Is he played too much? Some of his works definitely are. Did he influence contemporary and subsequent composers more than is good for their reputations? Undoubtedly. Are there a lot of people out there who think that they are sophisticated because they can recognize themes from the Fifth or Ninth symphonies? Yup.

But I find Beethoven's works interesting almost always; it has a lot to do with the tension that he creates and eventually resolves and with his ability to create panoramas out of a few notes. Moreover, he can take repeated listening better than any other composer I can think of (with the possible exception of Schubert). For the most part, I find the composers on the list so taken with the idea of sound as an end in itself that their music is boring.

The list of composers quoted above who escaped from Ludwig's powers does not include Rossini or Verdi. Why not?

[BWV 1080]

Surely there is nothing wrong with tolerating different musical aesthetics than Ludwigs?

At the expense of being intolerant towards musical aesthetics closer to those of Beethoven? We had that going with Paul already, it wasn't fun, why follow on his foot steps?

At any rate, nice list of composers, other then Boulez, Messiaen and Carter (yack on all three).

Whose being intolerant? I like Beethoven as much as the next guy, just need a different approach occasionally. So you like Webern but not Messiaen or Boulez? What's the difference there?

[Opus132]

Whose being intolerant?

You just said you can't tolerate the influence of Beethoven on Brahms anymore, i just took it from there.

So you like Webern but not Messiaen or Boulez? What's the difference there?

The first is a genius, the other two are not.

[BWV 1080]

So you like Webern but not Messiaen or Boulez? What's the difference there?

The first is a genius, the other two are not.

But Carter is.

[Corlyss_D]

Count me in! Are we having a meeting? I'll bring the libations.

[RebLem]

Warning: self-administerd anti-Beethoven remedies seldom work. The latest health fad in the UK are Beethoven de-tox clinics. They put you on "diazepam" in ever-decreasing doses and play Tchaikovsky or Ravel. Usually takes 10 days for the full cycle. Not available on the National Health Service (NHS) yet, so you have pay. Some clever so-and-so's are feigning "Beethoven-withdrawal-seizures", and trying to get free admittance on the NHS. It's not so good as you get fat, ugly nurses and horrible food, so it's best to save up and go private. After treatment you are cleansed for good, and throw up at the name of Beethoven. The main problem is when you get pre and post detox people on the same music forum: result disaster and lots of cross-insults. The Mods need alarm bells on their PCs to warn them of potential clashes.
Saphire

Hmmmm. I wonder if Chief Justice John Roberts was listening to Beethoven just before his seizure.

[slofstra]

After just listening to the 4th symphony, I'm still puzzling over Schumann not being influenced by Beethoven. And isn't saying "Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form) " the same as saying "Schumann (excluding anything that sounds like Beethoven) ". So what does that leave?

[jbuck919]

After just listening to the 4th symphony, I'm still puzzling over Schumann not being influenced by Beethoven.

Schumann, who worshiped Beethoven, did not belong on that list. I only did not mention him because the list was so ridiculously riddled with composers who have only more subtle connections with the big B.

[Ken]

^ I agree, I find that even many of Schumann's more "Romantic" piano works (i.e., Kreisleriana, Papillons, the various Fantasiestücke) somewhat resemble the Bagatelles and Sonatas of mid-late Beethoven.

[jbuck919]

^ I agree, I find that even many of Schumann's more "Romantic" piano works (i.e., Kreisleriana, Papillons, the various Fantasiestücke) somewhat resemble the Bagatelles and Sonatas of mid-late Beethoven.

Beethoven invented the non-descript character piece, which he called a bagatelle, as well as the art song cycle, of which he wrote the first masterpiece. A couple of other clever guys took it from there.

[BWV 1080]

^ I agree, I find that even many of Schumann's more "Romantic" piano works (i.e., Kreisleriana, Papillons, the various Fantasiestücke) somewhat resemble the Bagatelles and Sonatas of mid-late Beethoven.

That is an excellent point. I included Schumann because his character pieces were a major departure from classical forms and aesthetics. Rosen and other do draw sharp destinctions between Schumann's chromaticism (which tends to dissolve classical patterns of tension and release) and Beethoven's where despite the chromaticism he never strays to far from classical norms. The bagatelles are perhaps an exception to this.

[SONNET CLV]

Sorry, but Beethoven remains inescapable.

However, if you really want to listen to composers who have not been influenced by the master, turn to any of those who died before, say, 1770.

All the best to you anti-Beethovenians, nonetheless. It's good to know there will be empty seats in Heaven's listening room.

--SONNET CLV (currently listening to Beethoven's Op 89 -- would you believe a Polonaise for piano? written c. 1813, when Chopin was all of three years old! -- performed by Hanae Nakajima on am@ado Vol. 10 from the Beethoven COMPLETE EDITION. Take that you Beethoven haters!) --

[karlhenning]

Sorry, but Beethoven remains inescapable.

Sorry, but Beethoven's already been escaped, long, long ago.

Cheers,
~Karl

[Sapphire]

Sorry, but Beethoven remains inescapable.

Sorry, but Beethoven's already been escaped, long, long ago.

Cheers,
~Karl

Probably the very best Beethoven "cure" - for those who think it just gets better and better the more they listen to new works - is Op 91. Shall I tell them what this is, or should they find out themselves unaided, that is the question?


Saphire

[karlhenning]

Probably the very best Beethoven "cure" - for those who think it just gets better and better the more they listen to new works - is Op 91.

Oh! The Shostakovich Opus 91, yes? The Four Monologues on Verses by Pushkin for bass and piano are indeed an excellent curative of Beethovoerhoea :-)

Cheers,
~Karl

[Sapphire]

Probably the very best Beethoven "cure" - for those who think it just gets better and better the more they listen to new works - is Op 91.

Oh! The Shostakovich Opus 91, yes? The Four Monologues on Verses by Pushkin for bass and piano are indeed an excellent curative of Beethovoerhoea

Cheers,
~Karl

You never know, they might stumble across Wellington's Victory as well. A really "non-great" work both intrinsically and extrinsically.


Saphire

[Opus132]

I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?

[jbuck919]

I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?

No, you are not.

[Brahms]

You never know, they might stumble across Wellington's Victory as well. A really "non-great" work both intrinsically and extrinsically.

Saphire

What is "intrinsic greatness?"

What is "extrinsic greatness?"

[slofstra]

We are not exactly sure, but by this expression all manners of greatness are covered.

[Sapphire]

We are not exactly sure, but by this expression all manners of greatness are covered.

Exactly, as if this isn't obvious.


Saphire

[Jack Kelso]

Been more drawn to post-Beethoven composers who show little or no trace of LvB's influence. I have gotten to the point where I do not care for the most Beethovenistic of Brahms music (such as some of the string quartets) and even cringe at the Beethovenisms in Bartok's 5th String Quartet. So my list of Beethoven pallate cleansers would be:

Chopin
Schumann (excluding anything in a classical form)
Debussy
Webern
Stravinsky
Boulez
Messiaen
Dutilleux
Carter (although you could argue for some Beethovenisms in the 1st and 4th string quartets)


The French seem to dominate the list, as is fair.

Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent.

The big question is, if Schumann is on that list----where are Berlioz, Liszt and Wagner...?!

Jack

[Sapphire]

Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack

Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire

[Sapphire]

I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?

No, you are not.

And more fool to anyone who takes this thread too seriously. As far as I'm concerned, I regard Beethoven as the greatest composer, but it is possible to tire of it, at least temporarily, and it's interesting to consider what attempts were made by other "greats" to break away from the mould.


Saphire

[Jack Kelso]

Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack

Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire

Schumann doesn't have a "classical period". Except for most of the early piano music, his chamber works are all in classical form, as are his symphonies---albeit the Fourth takes a highly original form, the cyclical basis of it is to be found in Beethoven's Fifth.

The concert overtures "Julius Caesar", "Die Braut von Messina", as well as the overtures to "Faust" and "Genoveva" are basically within the classical mould, with slow intro, development, recapitulation and coda. Only the overture to "Manfred" follows an original course (its form reminds one a bit of Beethoven's "Coriolan" Overture)---but still acceptably "classical" and (after Beethoven's modus) "continuous creation" in form and content.

Best regards,
Jack

[Rod Corkin]

I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?

I love Wellington's Victory! Great entertainment, I wish I could hear/see it live but it must be a nightmare to conduct if you have the two armies of stage and and all the canon and musket effects to think about. Of course in any case the music was originally designed for Maelzel's Panharmonicon machine.

This link on the subject is very good:
http://raptusassociation.org/battle.html

[BWV 1080]

I love when people use Wellington's Victory as an example of Beethoven fallibility as a composer when it's common knowledge it was written the way it was on purpose. Perhaps i'm missing something?

No, you are not.

And more fool to anyone who takes this thread too seriously. As far as I'm concerned, I regard Beethoven as the greatest composer, but it is possible to tire of it, at least temporarily, and it's interesting to consider what attempts were made by other "greats" to break away from the mould.


Saphire

Yep, and Schumann's character pieces did break away from the mold. (but no Romantic composer, with the possible exception of Chopin, was ever out from under Beethoven's shadow)

[slofstra]

Have you ever seen this web site:

The 111 Most Influential Composers


Now, Beethoven only ranks 6th in influence, and Mozart ranks higher. It must be true, they used a 'statistical' approach. (ref. Disraeli)

(Aside from skepticism at the final compilation, the detailed content of the site is very interesting.)

[piston]

Chabrier is often overlooked as an influential composer. Like Chopin, he developed a personal style as far removed from Beethoven as one can imagine during the 19th century. His influence is best understood, not with "great master pieces" but with how his idiom is said to have influenced Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc (who wrote a biography of Chabrier). His own mentors include the Spaniards Zaporta and Pitarch, the Russian Tarnowski, and the Polish Edward Wolff, one of Chopin's friends.

[karlhenning]

Have you ever seen this web site:

The 111 Most Influential Composers

It's come up in discussion before.

Cheers,
~Karl

[Ken]

Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack

Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire

Ronald Taylor's biography "Schumann: His Life and Work" (I believe it was published in the 1980s) lengthily discusses Schumann's struggle to reconcile the emerging Romantic period with his Classical influences. I think Taylor tends to overplay the anguish that Schumann's "Classicalization" of his own later-period music (particularly his symphonies) caused him, but the biography something to look out for next time you're at your public library.

[Sapphire]

Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack

Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire

Ronald Taylor's biography "Schumann: His Life and Work" (I believe it was published in the 1980s) lengthily discusses Schumann's struggle to reconcile the emerging Romantic period with his Classical influences. I think Taylor tends to overplay the anguish that Schumann's "Classicalization" of his own later-period music (particularly his symphonies) caused him, but the biography something to look out for next time you're at your public library.

Right. I knew that I have read somehere that Schumann's music became slightly more classical in style after about 1845, starting with Symphony 2, compared with his earlier purer romanticism of his piano solo, song cycles and chamber music output. I must admit that I can't detect any change of great significance.

Saphire

[Jack Kelso]

Have you ever seen this web site:

The 111 Most Influential Composers


Now, Beethoven only ranks 6th in influence, and Mozart ranks higher. It must be true, they used a 'statistical' approach. (ref. Disraeli)

(Aside from skepticism at the final compilation, the detailed content of the site is very interesting.)

Yep, 'seen it before. And when I read that Chopin was listed ahead of Schumann, Haydn, Bruckner and Mahler I had a good belly-laugh and shut it off.

One would have to fly to Venus to find a composer after Schumann who didn't show his influence, even slightly. Beethoven, Haydn, Schumann, Bach and Wagner would mirror more the reality of strict influence.

Jack

[Jack Kelso]

Although the inclusion of Schumann is a high compliment to his great originality, I feel he doesn't belong here. He was a neo-classical composer (like Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms) and some amount of Beethoven influence is apparent. Jack

Wasn't Schumann's "classical period" roughly from Symphony 2 (Op. 61) onwards, ie 1845-6 to the end? There was a great deal before that.


Saphire

Ronald Taylor's biography "Schumann: His Life and Work" (I believe it was published in the 1980s) lengthily discusses Schumann's struggle to reconcile the emerging Romantic period with his Classical influences. I think Taylor tends to overplay the anguish that Schumann's "Classicalization" of his own later-period music (particularly his symphonies) caused him, but the biography something to look out for next time you're at your public library.

The 2nd Sonata, op. 22, all three string quartets, the Piano Quintet, Piano Quartet, the 3 trios and 3(!) violin sonatas are all after classical models, some using Beethoven's cyclical form. The symphonies (nos. 1 and 2 are the most "classical") depart somewhat from classical design due primarily to the scherzo form A-B-A-C-A, the double-trio, which was Schumann's invention. The idea probably stems from Beethoven's Seventh scherzo (A-B-A-B-A, with a hint of "B" again).

Jack