The Bland Leading the Bland

[Sapphire]

Last time i heard jabuck had nothing but the highest praise for figures such as Palestrina, Monteverdi or Debussy (not to mention his great love for Gregorian Chant). Austro-German centrism my arse.

And don't forget that he holds Schubert in the highest esteem too (except D 959).


Sapphire

[PJME]

as for Dulcinea ...I cannot help her. But for information's sake I can confirm that Pierné's works for piano and orchestra (most of them stem from an early stage inhis career) are indeed not his best inventions. And I wouldn't classify him as second rate Debussy - César Franck, Massenet, Ravel, Milhaud and -indeed Debussy- even Stravinsky - were all important in his development as an artist .

The French Timpani label issued recently the impressive (and very Franckian) symphonic poem with chorus "l'An Mil" (The year 1000). An original and colourful evocation of that fated year when people thought the end of the world was near...
Timpani has also two Cd's with the almost complete chambermusic. A great pianoquintet ( on Basque rythms), a subtle violinsonata, impressionistic works with harp & flute...

Also on Timpani, the complete "Cydalise et le chèvre-pied" ( with chorus) may well be one of his greatest works. An endless flow of catchy tunes ( the entrance of the litle Fauns for multiple piccolos!), inventive orchestration ( baroque pastiche, with harpsichord, sweeping string/trumpet melodies). Ravel's Daphnis comes indeed to mind...

Now we have to wait for " La croisade des enfants" (The children's crusade" and his last big work, Saint François d'Assise.

Pierné has a real, original voice of his own and is well worth discovering.

From Musicweb http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... 2c1110.htm

Michael Cookson

Pierné wrote in many genres including ballet and opera with his scoring demonstrating a consistent technical assurance. Pierné’s music conveys a delicate palette of generally subdued and intimate emotions, high on grace, charm and style, mild mannered and displaying a subtle wit. It rarely expresses profound emotions. If one is looking for intense assertiveness, unbridled passion and powerful drama or vistas of spectacular mountain landscapes, scandalous Straussian eroticism and profoundly spiritual contemplation then look elsewhere.

[Opus132]

That's too bad. You cut yourself out of so much enjoyable and appealing music if you listen only to the composers that John doesn't dump on.

Except i don't limit myself to anything, i merely agree with John regarding some of his objective observations. When he states that the late piano music of Debussy is probably among the last masterpieces for the instrument i can fully understand where he is coming from. I have an extended library of 20th century piano literature including a large selection of piano works by such prohibitive monsters as Kaikhosru Sorabji, and i assure you my appetite to this field is far from being limited to the French master, but after all it's said and done there's very little that is in anyway comparable to say, Debussy's Etudes. Some of the works of Bartok may qualify. Webern's Suite for Piano, perhaps Libeti's Etudes for a more recent example, but not a whole lot more then this. I have no obligation to limit myself to this small corpus of works but being in my 20s i still have plenty of leisure and energy to devote my attention to everything that strikes my fancy at any given moment. By the time i reach John's age i may not be so forthcoming, but when the times come that i may have to chose between Chopin or Alkan, i'll probably stick to the former.

He's got two degrees in music, which makes him one of our most treasured members here because he's willing to spend a lot of time here (and take a more-or-less constant pounding from yours truly in the Pub), he's very articulate, as well as clever.

Karl's pedigree and literacy exceeds John by some margin but i keep finding myself at odds with him more often then i'd like (which puts me in the awful position of having to strike against a man of far greater distinction then my own). An individual's worth should be measured by what he can offer, not his degrees.

[jserraglio]

That's too bad. You cut yourself out of so much enjoyable and appealing music if you listen only to the composers that John doesn't dump on.

Except i don't limit myself to anything, i merely agree with John regarding some of his objective observations. When he states that the late piano music of Debussy is probably among the last masterpieces for the instrument i can fully understand where he is coming from. I have an extended library of 20th century piano literature including a large selection of piano works by such prohibitive monsters as Kaikhosru Sorabji, and i assure you my appetite to this field is far from being limited to the French master, but after all it's said and done there's very little that is in anyway comparable to say, Debussy's Etudes. Some of the works of Bartok may qualify. Webern's Suite for Piano, perhaps Libeti's Etudes for a more recent example, but not a whole lot more then this. I have no obligation to limit myself to this small corpus of works but being in my 20s i still have plenty of leisure and energy to devote my attention to everything that strikes my fancy at any given moment. By the time i reach John's age i may not be so forthcoming, but when the times come that i may have to chose between Chopin or Alkan, i'll probably stick to the former.

I agree with Opus132. I like John's style of discourse and have never found it offensive, even when I think his opinions might be wrongheaded--at least it's not "the bland leading the bland."

[jbuck919]

One example would be the Concerto for String Quartet and Orchestra by Chausson, as weird as that sounds. One can imagine any major orchestra performing the dreadful Fifth Symphony of Sibelius but never even considering such a superior work

That's an amazing discovery John! Of course you couldn't find a recording ,for Chausson never wrote such a piece! (You're ready for some extra omega-3 and vitamins...!)

Here's an almost complete list of Chausson oeuvre- he wrote little and most of it is of high quality.

Chamber music :
Concert, pour piano, violon et quatuor à cordes, op. 21 (1890-1891)
Paysage, pour piano (1895)
Quelques danses (1896)
Quatuor avec piano (1897)
Quatuor à cordes op. 35, (1898, inachevé, complété par Vincent d'Indy)

Orchestral :
Viviane, poème symphonique (1882-1887)
Symphonie en si bémol majeur (1890)
Poème, pour violon et orchestre, op.25 (1896)

vocal :
Poème de l'amour et de la mer, op. 19 (1882-1887, révisé en 1893)
Hymne védique (1886)
Serres chaudes (1896)
Chanson perpétuelle (1898)

Opéra :
Les Caprices de Marianne (1882-1884, inachevé)
Le Roi Arthus (1892-1896)

Musique de scène :
La Tempête (1888)
La Légende de Sainte Cécile (1891)

I suppose you heard the Concert (not concerto...) for piano, violin & string quartet ( several very good recordings - Jascha Heifetz, Jorge Bolet, Lorin Maazel, Yehudi Menuhin, J.Y.Thibaudet, Christian Ferras...etc)

Bohuslav Martinu, Julian Orbon (beautiful & moving work on Naxos), Schoenberg's most "happy work" (after Hândel's concerto grosso), Gunther Schuller, James Yanatos....all wrote concerti for string quartet and orchestra.( there are many more).

Peter

Ne soi pas ridicule, Peter. Tu sais parfaitement bien ce parmis ces oevres j'ai entendu.

[PJME]

Mais mon cher John, I don't understand... Who is "ridicule"...?

You mention " a concerto for string quartet and orchestra " by Chausson.
OK - you made a mistake - not me!
It's no big deal,however - everybody makes mistakes. C'est pas grave.

For the rest : I'm listening to Johan Ludwig Bach - Motetten . Excellent!




Sincerely, Peter

[piston]

"Sheet Music" indicates that the "Concerto for piano, violin and string quartet, op. 21" has been transcribed for "full orchestra", which is probably what jb heard. I can't think of anything else than that:

About Concerto in D for Piano, Violin and String Quartet, Op. 21
By Ernest Chausson. For Full Orchestra. Full Orchestra (Full Score). Dover Edition. Masterwork. Full Score. Published by Dover Publications. (6-406326)

[dulcinea]

as for Dulcinea ...I cannot help her. But for information's sake I can confirm that Pierné's works for piano and orchestra (most of them stem from an early stage inhis career) are indeed not his best inventions. And I wouldn't classify him as second rate Debussy - César Franck, Massenet, Ravel, Milhaud and -indeed Debussy- even Stravinsky - were all important in his development as an artist .

The French Timpani label issued recently the impressive (and very Franckian) symphonic poem with chorus "l'An Mil" (The year 1000). An original and colourful evocation of that fated year when people thought the end of the world was near...
Timpani has also two Cd's with the almost complete chambermusic. A great pianoquintet ( on Basque rythms), a subtle violinsonata, impressionistic works with harp & flute...

Also on Timpani, the complete "Cydalise et le chèvre-pied" ( with chorus) may well be one of his greatest works. An endless flow of catchy tunes ( the entrance of the litle Fauns for multiple piccolos!), inventive orchestration ( baroque pastiche, with harpsichord, sweeping string/trumpet melodies). Ravel's Daphnis comes indeed to mind...

Now we have to wait for " La croisade des enfants" (The children's crusade" and his last big work, Saint François d'Assise.

Pierné has a real, original voice of his own and is well worth discovering.

From Musicweb http://www.musicweb-international.com/c ... 2c1110.htm

Michael Cookson

Pierné wrote in many genres including ballet and opera with his scoring demonstrating a consistent technical assurance. Pierné’s music conveys a delicate palette of generally subdued and intimate emotions, high on grace, charm and style, mild mannered and displaying a subtle wit. It rarely expresses profound emotions. If one is looking for intense assertiveness, unbridled passion and powerful drama or vistas of spectacular mountain landscapes, scandalous Straussian eroticism and profoundly spiritual contemplation then look elsewhere.

Wow!--I didn't realise my instincts were THAT accurate. Thanks for the help; I'll definitely check the pieces you recommend.

[PJME]

I also want to let you know that some critics have a different point of view on those Pierné piano & orchestra works : ( also from Musicweb International) :

Stephen Coombs magnificently conquers the knuckle-cracking challenges of these fascinating works. They are by no means the insubstantial glitter-merchandise I had expected. True, some of their charm is in their surface dazzle, but there is sentiment here as well.


The Pierné Piano Concerto belongs amongst the glitterati of piano concertos: the five by Palmgren and the five by Saint-Saëns being like-hearted works. Its three movements encompass moods from that of the middle movement of the Tchaikovsky First to a petulant Mephistophelian aggression (as in Totentanz). Think also in terms of the Haydn Wood Piano Concerto, the Holbrooke First Concerto Gwyn-ap-Nudd and the magnificently galloping Saint-Saëns Second Concerto. It stops just short of the romanticism of the Rachmaninov Second Concerto.


After the brocade and brilliance of the Concerto the Poëme Symphonique represents a noticeable gear-change. It stands clear of the merely decorative, being pensive, dream-like and complex in its moods. It draws on the sort of intensity to be found in Bax's Symphonic Variations and Winter Legends (10.19) with an evolution towards sturdy victory in the closing pages. Some nice trumpet playing is to be found in the finale. The work was dedicated to Maria Roger-Miclos who later became the dedicatee of Saint-Saëns' Africa.

Fantaisie-Ballet was Pierné's first work for piano and orchestra. Its dedicatee is the pianist, Caroline Montigny-Rémaury, the sister-in-law of Ambroise Thomas and a friend of Saint-Saëns (she was the dedicatee of Saint-Saëns Wedding Cake Caprice). The work is alive with inventive and pert display and the episodes at 7.10-8.03 (Russian) and 10.10 (Gershwin!) illustrate its vitality.


The Scherzo-Caprice is back to Saint-Saëns territory with the waltz a clear presence. One can see how small a step it was from here to the irresistible sentimentality of Poulenc's Piano Concerto and to Ravel's La Valse.


The performances are not found wanting in any respect. You might bemoan that the BBC Scottish is not the Philadelphia but short of issues about lushness of string tone the sound of the orchestra is fully satisfying.


Stephen Coombs contributes a wide-rangingly informative booklet note reflecting his immersion in the repertoire. I have shamelessly poached from it.


This disc has all the high end attributes of Hyperion's reputation: tireless in its production and exemplary approach.

Rob Barnett

[PJME]

The French label Cascavelle has issued a CD with a string orchestra version of the "Concert"

this article can be found at Arkiv / Fanfare

Before carping let it be said that this commands an enthusiastic recommendation.
The tide has turned so conclusively during the period of Fanfare’s existence that the art of transcription generally no longer needs defense. But particular instances provoke ambivalence.
These three works have been arranged for the forces at hand—the Orchestre Royal de Chambre de Wallonie (into which a harp has been smuggled for the Ravel)—with variable results.
Ravel’s Tzigane and Chausson’s Poème were arranged by David Walter, who notes, “My work has no intention of substituting itself to the originals [sic], but with modesty and admiration to play this unforgettable music as often as possible.” He means, I suppose, to make it more readily available.
The arrangement of Chausson’s Concert, on the other hand, is uncredited. Is it the composer’s? The work list in Jean Gallois’s authoritative biography of the composer does not include it. On the other hand, Gallois’s introduction to a disc of Chausson rarities heralds the discovery in 1996 of his arrangement of the Poème for violin, piano, and string quartet (Hyperion 67028, Fanfare 22:1)—an obvious, interesting, and unsatisfactory accommodation to home music-making and very likely why the composer buried it. Arranged for string orchestra, the Poème can seem anemic, lacking the empurpled, velvety orchestral sumptuousness against which night’s blackbird her sad infamy sings, you might say, though Dumay, as soloist and conductor, lingers over that melancholic croon with despairing grandeur.
The swelling of the Concert’s string complement from quartet to string orchestra robs that work of its virtuosic eloquence—the astounding way in which Chausson suggests orchestral fullness with chamber music intimacy and compositional linearity. Instead, it becomes (in Walter’s arrangement ??) a frank double concerto for violin and piano, which I must confess to liking very much. Indeed, one may well return to favorite performances of the original with the nagging sensation of something lacking.

Among the most enduring recorded performances of the Concert, beginning with the 1931 Thibaud/Cortot go at it (Biddulph 29, Fanfare 14:6), is a 1986 tilt by none other than Augustin Dumay and Jean-Philippe Collard with the Muir Quartet (EMI 47548), a stunningly loaded account in which every phrase discloses a passionate secret, scaling the manic heights only to plumb depressive depths with aching momentum. How infinitely seductive to find that same performance—more tonally lustrous, perhaps, and more tellingly nuancé—embedded, so to speak, in the caressing buzz and hum of lush string tone! The first movement seethes, surges, trembles, and sings with ecstasy; the second becomes a giddily swinging berceuse for lovers; the third a hypnotically smothering convulsion—piercing cries, stifled sobs; and the last a fevered, distraught volatility speaking of a joy too transcendently painful to be borne by mortal clay. Ripeness is all. An alternately crooning and coruscating 1981 recorded performance of Tzigane by Dumay and Collard (EMI 269-73937, cassette—did this ever make it to CD?)—so scintillantly arranged by Ravel that one may be forgiven for preferring it to his orchestral version—likewise reappears little changed in interpretive stance, while the inclusion of a harp and numberless plucked clevernesses relieve with ping and pizzazz the potential monochromaticism of Walter’s string-orchestra version. In the upshot, though one may have reservations about the arrangements, these are stratospheric performances—divinatory, revelatory, and compelling. If the piano tends to be covered at paroxysmic moments, sound is, overall, warmly immediate and richly detailed. Highest recommendation.

FANFARE: Adrian Corleonis

Not bad at all - for me this is also the end of the Chausson chapter!

[Jack Kelso]

I'll probably catch a lot of flak (especially from Mr. Buck) on this, but even memorizing some of Brahms' chamber works doesn't make most of them any less bland for me than they are. Oh, everything's in place all right, technically as perfect as could be, but....hmm....

Ever since Schumann, Hanslick and Bülow immortalized Brahms in their writings and clichés ("3 B's," Beethoven's '10th', etc.) almost no one dares say "BOO" to anything by the Hamburg Master. But---what are the chamber works....really?!

Masterpieces? Perhaps. Sterile masterpieces? More likely, some of them at least.

I'm not referring to the Sextet, op. 18 or the 1st Piano Quartet, op. 25, nor the Piano Quintet, op. 34. But there are movements in practically all of the other works which I find far less satisfying than Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Schubert---even Mendelssohn---

Brahms' chamber works are simply overrated.

There are, for me at least, too many stretches of important-sounding proclamations and labored manipulation and not enough good red blooded melody/inspiration and drama (or humor) in the string quartets, trios and other piano quartets, etc.

If only they were as moving as the symphonies and the Violin Concerto....

Tschüß!
Jack

[Sapphire]

I'll probably catch a lot of flak (especially from Mr. Buck) on this, but even memorizing some of Brahms' chamber works doesn't make most of them any less bland for me than they are. Oh, everything's in place all right, technically as perfect as could be, but....hmm....

Ever since Schumann, Hanslick and Bülow immortalized Brahms in their writings and clichés ("3 B's," Beethoven's '10th', etc.) almost no one dares say "BOO" to anything by the Hamburg Master. But---what are the chamber works....really?!

Masterpieces? Perhaps. Sterile masterpieces? More likely, some of them at least.

I'm not referring to the Sextet, op. 18 or the 1st Piano Quartet, op. 25, nor the Piano Quintet, op. 34. But there are movements in practically all of the other works which I find far less satisfying than Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Schubert---even Mendelssohn---

Brahms' chamber works are simply overrated.

There are, for me at least, too many stretches of important-sounding proclamations and labored manipulation and not enough good red blooded melody/inspiration and drama (or humor) in the string quartets, trios and other piano quartets, etc.

If only they were as moving as the symphonies and the Violin Concerto....

Tschüß!
Jack

I agree, with similar (perhaps even more critical) comments made recently elsewhere.


Sapphire

[DavidRoss]

I'll probably catch a lot of flak (especially from Mr. Buck) on this, but even memorizing some of Brahms' chamber works doesn't make most of them any less bland for me than they are. Oh, everything's in place all right, technically as perfect as could be, but....hmm....

Ever since Schumann, Hanslick and Bülow immortalized Brahms in their writings and clichés ("3 B's," Beethoven's '10th', etc.) almost no one dares say "BOO" to anything by the Hamburg Master. But---what are the chamber works....really?!

Masterpieces? Perhaps. Sterile masterpieces? More likely, some of them at least.

I'm not referring to the Sextet, op. 18 or the 1st Piano Quartet, op. 25, nor the Piano Quintet, op. 34. But there are movements in practically all of the other works which I find far less satisfying than Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Schubert---even Mendelssohn---

Brahms' chamber works are simply overrated.

There are, for me at least, too many stretches of important-sounding proclamations and labored manipulation and not enough good red blooded melody/inspiration and drama (or humor) in the string quartets, trios and other piano quartets, etc.

If only they were as moving as the symphonies and the Violin Concerto....

I feel almost exactly the same way, only in regard to Schumann instead of Brahms. For me, Brahms's chamber music is the bees' knees.

[jbuck919]

I'm not referring to the Sextet, op. 18 or the 1st Piano Quartet, op. 25, nor the Piano Quintet, op. 34.

I am delighted that you found some exceptions.

[Opus132]

I'm not referring to the Sextet, op. 18 or the 1st Piano Quartet, op. 25, nor the Piano Quintet, op. 34.

I am delighted that you found some exceptions.

And some rather boring exceptions at that. Why am i not surprised that Bach is among the least popular composers around here?

[jbuck919]

I'm not referring to the Sextet, op. 18 or the 1st Piano Quartet, op. 25, nor the Piano Quintet, op. 34.

I am delighted that you found some exceptions.

And some rather boring exceptions at that. Why am i not surprised that Bach is among the least popular composers around here?

If you think those works are boring, you need to be fitted for new ears. (I'm sorry, I'm rarely in such a nasty mood but this is really quite ridiculous.) Some music is taken for granted and beyond reproach and is simply not often commented on for that reason. Do you honestly expect any experienced listener to post "The St. Matthew Passion: WOW!"

[Opus132]

If you think those works are boring, you need to be fitted for new ears.

It wasn't my intention to imply that the music was boring, but those works are usually the most popular among new comers. It's like arguing that Beethoven's piano piano music is hard and heavy, except for the 'moonlight' sonata, the popularity of which even the composer himself found annoying.

Some music is taken for granted and beyond reproach and is simply not often commented on for that reason. Do you honestly expect any experienced listener to post "The St. Matthew Passion: WOW!"

No, but when was the last time you've met experienced listeners speaking of Bach in such underwhelming or outright hostile terms, and then refer to Brahms as 'trite' the moment his music becomes more challenging then the ever popular violin concerto or the g minor quartet?

[Chalkperson]

Why am i not surprised that Bach is among the least popular composers around here?

Explain yourself, where on earth do you get that idea from...

[DavidRoss]

Do you honestly expect any experienced listener to post "The St. Matthew Passion: WOW!"

Do you really mean to say that the SMP doesn't wow you?

Why am I not surprised....

[Chalkperson]

Do you honestly expect any experienced listener to post "The St. Matthew Passion: WOW!"

Do you really mean to say that the SMP doesn't wow you?

Why am I not surprised....

It's Klemperer's version he hates, not the Music (one of the greatest works of all time IMHO) and you either do like SMP or you don't, I do and have numerous versions, maybe Opus 123 is deceived by the fact that we don't keep starting Bach threads, everyone and their mother likes the Brandenburg's, Air on a G String etc but he is not really for novices so newbies rarely ask Bach questions...but if someone did ask for advice on Bach I think you would get a lot of replies...except from Corlyss of course...

[Jack Kelso]

I'll probably catch a lot of flak (especially from Mr. Buck) on this, but even memorizing some of Brahms' chamber works doesn't make most of them any less bland for me than they are. Oh, everything's in place all right, technically as perfect as could be, but....hmm....

Ever since Schumann, Hanslick and Bülow immortalized Brahms in their writings and clichés ("3 B's," Beethoven's '10th', etc.) almost no one dares say "BOO" to anything by the Hamburg Master. But---what are the chamber works....really?!

Masterpieces? Perhaps. Sterile masterpieces? More likely, some of them at least.

I'm not referring to the Sextet, op. 18 or the 1st Piano Quartet, op. 25, nor the Piano Quintet, op. 34. But there are movements in practically all of the other works which I find far less satisfying than Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Schubert---even Mendelssohn---

Brahms' chamber works are simply overrated.

There are, for me at least, too many stretches of important-sounding proclamations and labored manipulation and not enough good red blooded melody/inspiration and drama (or humor) in the string quartets, trios and other piano quartets, etc.

If only they were as moving as the symphonies and the Violin Concerto....

I feel almost exactly the same way, only in regard to Schumann instead of Brahms. For me, Brahms's chamber music is the bees' knees.

What?! Schumann's chamber music unmelodic or bland??!

Yeah, right. And Haydn's symphonies are more dramatic than Beethoven's.

Jack

[Opus132]

What?! Schumann's chamber music unmelodic or bland??!

Sometimes it's out right dreadful.

[Chalkperson]

What?! Schumann's chamber music unmelodic or bland??!

Sometimes it's out right dreadful.

I don't disagree with that, i'm not the greatest fan of Schumann myself, same with Brahms...

[Wallingford]

Why am i not surprised that Bach is among the least popular composers around here?

Well, you see, Opus, many of us have known all along that Bach reigns supreme & the fact doesn't bear excess mentioning.

[Jack Kelso]

What?! Schumann's chamber music unmelodic or bland??!

Sometimes it's out right(sic!) dreadful.

Sure, so is Beethoven. Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, his teacher, said "He has never learned anything, and he can do nothing in decent style." When you're way ahead of your time, people are going to scorn you.

Schumann's "Opus 132", by the way, is the absolutely wonderful "Märchenerzählungen für Klavier, Klarinette und Viola"---deemed a masterpiece by all musicians who know his music well.

It was one of his last works. Do you take your board name after it?

Tschüß!
Jack