Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

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Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Lance » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:26 pm

The Provenance of the Requiem
by Agnes Selby


The information we have about the Requiem's Commissioner, Count Walsegg comes from an essay by Anton Herzog, schoolmaster and second violin in Count Walsegg's orchestra. Count Walsegg died on November 11, 1827. Anton Herzog submitted his essay about the Requiem for publication but it was rejected by the Censor in 1839. Herzog, by his own admission never managed to get the exact information about the Requiem from Count Walsegg although he attempted to talk to him about it even when the Count was on his deathbed. Herzog's information about the Requiem was written about the time when the Imperial Library had purchased the Requiem, as completed by Sussmayr, from Katharina Adelpoller.

Herzog's essay was discovered by Dr. Otto Schneider in the Municipal Archives of Wiener Neustadt and was published by Otto Erich Deutsch in the Osterreichische Musikzeitschrift in February 1964. So sensitive was this essay at the time Herzog wrote it that it bears the inscription: "Not Authorised for Publication - by order of the Imperial Royal Ministry" dated Vienna 8th February 1839.

Why was Herzog's essay not published? After all, in 1839 the provenance of the Requiem was a newsworthy story. Most people believed that Mozart's Requiem, written in his own hand, had finally been found. Ignaz von Mosel, the Curator of the Court Library, was himself preparing to write a treatise about the Requiem. By 1839 the Requiem was accepted as Mozart's ultimate work. It had enjoyed a number of performances, one in particular had touched the Viennese hearts when the Requiem was performed at the Memorial Service at the Schottenkirche for Haydn on 15 June, 1809.

Had Herzog's essay been published in 1839, it would have been damaging to the ruling aristocracy. The Censor could see the potential ridicule that could be aimed at the aristocracy when news that "one of their own" had claimed the intellectual ownership of a work composed by the great Mozart. The Censor could well imagine the sniggering of the rising bourgeoisie as they sipped their coffe and drank their schnapps in the many coffee-houses in Vienna. In addition, by 1839 Walsegg's claim of having composed the Requiem represented an infringement of Copyright Law.

The story of the provenance of the Requiem is a drama worthy of Shakespeare's pen. A story without an end for the drama still continues to plague historians with its mystery. Homeric insults are directed by music historians at each other and accusing fingers are being pointed at the now long dead players in the drama of the Requiem.

The story begins with young Count Franz Walsegg von Stuppach who had married a beautiful young aristocrat named Anna. An inoccuous eccentric, Count Walsegg lived with his beloved wife at Stuppach Castle situated at the foot of the Semmering Mountains. Like many of the nobility at the time, he maitained a private orchestra and was himself an accomplished cellist and flautist. The orchestra gave twice- weekly performances in which the Count and his wife often participated.

This was an idyllic existence, enhanced by the Count's great love for his wife, unusual at a time when most aristocratic marriages were based on financial arrangements. The Count also took great interest in his subjects and was patron of a school attended by his servants' children. As a result, he was much loved by his people. At least once a year the Emperor would arrive at Stuppach Castle and a hunting expedition would take place followed by ellegant suppers and a performance by the Count's orchestra.

Count Walsegg had, however, one great weakness. He believed himself to be a good composer and yearned to be a great one. At times he composed little pieces and gave them to his orchestra to perform. At other times, he purchased works from poor Viennese composers, copied the manuscripts and signed them as though these compositions were his very own. He did not see this as plagiarism but as a good deed performed in aid of poverty-stricken composers. Copyright laws did not exist at the time but a man's honour was at stake where the stealing of another person's intellectual property was concerned. Count Walsegg did all his purchases on the quiet, sending an emissary in quest of compositions. Occasionally the purveyor was Franz Anton Hoffmeister who was also Mozart's principal publisher.

On 14 February, 1791 Walsegg's great love, his twenty year old wife died. Walsegg, only eight years her senior, remained a widower for the rest of his life. He commissioned the renowned Viennese sculptor, Johann Martin Fischer to create a magnificent tomb in memory of his wife. The Countess Anna's remains were taken out of the family crypt in interred in her favourite meadow near a stream at Stuppach. No doubt, this particular spot had a special meaning for the loving couple. (Sadly, during the Napoleonic Wars the tomb was ransacked for valuables and the Countess' remains had to be returned to the family vault at Schottwien). The Count intended to commemorate his wife's passing with the performance of a Requiem. He sent his emissary to commission the Mass from Mozart, who accepted and agreed to obey the Count's conditions for secrecy.

The romantic story of a ghost-like stranger, the messenger of the mysterious Commissioner of the Requiem, gained credence soon after Mozart's death as a result of a piece of sensational journalism. On 7 January, 1792 the "Salzburger Intelligenzblatt" described the commissioning of the Requiem as the delivery of an unsigned letter to Mozart by a servant who brought with him 30 ducats as a deposit and a promise of further payment upon completion of the work: "Now Mozart had to write, which he did, often with tears in his eyes, always saying 'I am writing a Requiem for myself'." This particular piece of romantic invention had caught the public's imagination and prevails to this day. (viz. the film "Amadeus").

It is hard to believe that Mozart and Constanze did not know the man who arrived at their home with the commission from Count Walsegg. Franz Anton Leitgeb was well known to both of them. He was the administrator of Count Walsegg's estates and in Vienna he worked from an office situated on the ground floor of a building owned by the Count. Mozart's friend and fellow Freemason, Michael Puchberg, lived in an apartment above Leitgeb's office.

Mozart was extremely busy in 1791. It was during this period that he first employed Franz Sussmayr to help him with his work. According to Constanze, Mozart received the commission for the Requiem shortly before he was asked to compose the opera "La Clemenza di Tito" for the coronation of Emperor Leopold II in Prague which took place in September 1791. Mozart's busy schedule also included the composing of "The Magic Flute" commissioned by Schikaneder. He seems to have had little time for the Requiem which was not needed until February 1792 for the commemoration of Countess Walsegg's death. The watermarks on the paper Mozart used suggest that he did not begin composing the Requiem until after his return from Prague. Even then he gave priority to the glorious Clarinet concerto K622 for his friend Anton Stadler, as well as the Small Masonic Cantata K623.

According to Robbins Landon's "Mozart's Last Year", Mozart began composing the Requiem sometime between 8th October and 20th November, when he became ill and took to his bed. It is possible that he continued to compose for a while longer, yet the appearance of the autograph is very tidy, as though written at a desk.


The myth that Mozart worked on the Requiem to the very end of his life is contradicted by Dr. Peter J. Davies' theory that Mozart died as a result of renal failure which would have precluded his using his hands because of the swelling and stiffness of his limbs.

Mozart's terminal illness lasted only 15 days. He died at 12.55 am on December 5, 1791. Sophie Haibl, Constanze's sister, wrote a description of Mozart's death and her account of his last days appears in Nissen's Mozart biography. Subsequently every Mozart biographer has repeated her story, thus paving Sophie's path to immortality. When Mozart died, Constanze fell to her knees and begged God to take her too. She was hysterical with grief. Baron van Swieten arrived in the middle of the night to mourn with the widow. As the news of Mozart's death spread, people gathered in front of the house and stood vigil in silence. Schikaneder, however, moved about in a daze seeing Mozart's ghost everywhere and cried like a child.

Constanze was taken with her two children to the home of a friend, Joseph Bauernfeld and later to Joseph Goldham. As was the custom of the day, the house was sealed and the Requiem remained inside.

Or did it?

A few days after Mozart's death a service was held at St. Michael's Church and a Requiem was performed. I wrote to St. Michael's Church and received a polite reply informing me that the singers were listed in the Church records as well as the payment they received from Schikaneder who had organised this Commemorative Service. Although it has often been stated that parts of Mozart's Requiem were performed, I was told that there is no record as to the music performed.

Soon after Mozart's death, Franz Leitgeb appeared at Constanze's door requesting the Requiem. But the Requiem was unfinished and an agreement was reached that it would be completed in a professional way. Although we do not possess evidence of a communication from Leigeb to Count Walsegg, the Count would have been appropriately informed. Constanze tried to find Sussmayr but without success. She then turned to Joseph Eibler who undertook to complete the Requiem. However, he was unable to do so and Constanze finally found Sussmayr who completed the Requiem which was then delivered to Count Walsegg. There is no written documentation of an agreement between Walsegg and Constanze apart from her statement to Breitkopf&Hartel
that she was permitted by the Commissioner to sell the Requiem to "Princes as long as they did not publish it." (Letter dated May 25, 1799: Constanze Mozart to Breitkopf & Hartel).

Finally, Count Walsegg had the Requiem in his possession. He then proceeded forthwith to copy the autograph in his own hand and sign it, as was his normal practice, in order to give it to his musicians as his own work. There can be no doubt that he knew the Requiem was completed by a hand other than Mozart's, for he stated to his musicians that he had completed the Requiem himself. According to Herzog, he claimed to have been Mozart's pupil and had submitted to Mozart parts of the manuscript for comment. He continued to say that when Mozart died it was found that so similar were Mozart's and his own handwritings that people thought the Requiem was Mozart's work.

With Mozart dead, the Count began to have different plans for the performance of the Requiem. No longer were the four walls of his castle enough to satisfy his ego. The Count did not expect Mozart's widow to claim the Requiem for her husband. In semi-feudal Austria, such effrontery would not have been tolerated. There was a vast chasm between a female citizen with limited rights and an aristocrat who was lord of a domain and a personal friend of the Emperor.

Preparations for the performance of the Requiem now began in earnest. Count Walsegg planned to commemorate his wife's death with a public performance of the Requiem. The news that the Count was searching in Vienna for outstanding singers and musicians to perform the Requiem reached Constanze who was well placed to hear of this and it would not be difficult to imagine her consternation when she heard that her husband's ultimate composition would receive a performance as a work "composed" by Count Walsegg. It is mind-boggling to imagine that Count Walsegg thought he could get away with such a lie. Was it just his own personal conceit or was it indeed a sign of the power the aristocracy exercised over the humble citizens of Austria?

As a result of the intelligence received by Constanze from many quarters - one must not forget that her own two sisters were opera singers - she began planning the rescue of the Requiem from the Count's clutches. She knew her adversary well. She used Count Walsegg's need for secrecy as her main weapon. Not to her dying day did she reveal the name of the Requiem's Commissioner. Count Walsegg could do nothing as long as she did not reveal his name. Had he himself come forward publicly to deny Constanze's right to her husband's work, the Count knew he would have created an unprecedented scandal in Vienna.

Equally, Herzog's naivete in naming Count Walsegg as a man who commissioned the Requiem and then performed it as his own composition, sealed his essay's fate. It sat unpublished in a vault for over a century, bearing silent witness to one man's folly.

With the help of Baron van Swieten, Constanze made her own preparations for the performance of the Requiem. This took place at the establishment of Ignaz Jahn on 2 January 1793. It was given by Baron van Swieten in honour of Mozart, his long-time friend and was attended by many dignitaries including Salieri. The proceeds of the concert were given to Mozart's impoverished widow and her children. Thus Constanze quietly reclaimed the Requiem from Walsegg and established it as Mozart's work.

Many scholars have claimed that Constanze stole Walsegg's property as though intellectual property could be given away or sold. These historians claim that there was in existence a contract by which Mozart signed his Requiem over to the Count. However, no such contract has even been discovered nor did Walsegg's lawyer ever come forward with a claim against Constance for breaching a legal contract.

Count Walsegg did not give up his by now total conviction that he was the composer of the Requiem. He first performed the Requiem in public as his own composition in December 1793, almost a year after Constanze had it performed in Mozart's memory. Walsegg performed the Requiem again on 14 February 1794 on the anniversary of his wife's death. Thereafter, with the exception of arranging a part of the Requiem as a string quintet, the Count made no further use of Mozart's work.

Constanze freely used the Requiem during her promotional tour of Mozart's music. In 1796 Sussmayr had it performed at Kremsmunster Abbey, where it was hailed as one of Mozart's greatest works completed by the Abbey's illustrious student, Franz Sussmayr.

In 1838 the Imperial Library employed a judicial officer by the name of Nowack to search for six Mozart string quartets which were touted to have been in the possession of Count Walsegg. Instead, Nowack found the Requiem - by then owned by Katarina Adelpoller who had inherited it from her father, Walsegg's court usher. The Imperial Library purchased the Requiem for 50 gulden believing it to be entirely in Mozart's hand.

In reply to Ignaz Mosel's inquiry regarding the authenticity of the Requiem, Constanze replied on 10 February 1839:

"If the score is complete then it is not Mozart's because he did not finish it. It should be possible to distinguish where Sussmayr continued the score because I feel that nobody can exactly immitate another person's handwriting. And I must assure you that no one else but Sussmayr has completed the Requiem, which was not hard, as the main themes were already written out."

In 1799 Breitkopf & Hartel announced the publication of the Requiem without notifying Constanze. The protracted correspondence between the Publishers and Constanze would take up an equally long article. The threats against the Publishing House were written by Nicolaus Nissen, later to become Constanze's second husband. Nissen was also present at a meeting with Count Walsegg and his lawyer when the problem of the Requiem was finally resolved. Count Walsegg compared his own copy with the one about to be published by Breitkopf & Hartel. All he asked for was the payment of 50 ducats and a number of printed copies of the Requiem.

No charges were ever laid against either Constanze or Breitkopf & Hartel and no contract assigning Mozart's intellectual property to Count Walsegg was ever produced or found.

Agnes Selby
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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:33 am

Dear Lance,

Thank you for posting this for me.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by karlhenning » Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:12 am

Very interesting, Agnes.

One thing I wonder about:

Agnes Selby wrote:He did not see this as plagiarism but as a good deed performed in aid of poverty-stricken composers. Copyright laws did not exist at the time but a man's honour was at stake where the stealing of another person's intellectual property was concerned. Count Walsegg did all his purchases on the quiet, sending an emissary in quest of compositions.

The first sentence here seems to me at cross purposes with the consequent remarks. It was a matter of honor, and Walsegg practiced guarded discretion in the acts; that appears to suggest that he did understand it to be plagiarism (as his era construed it).

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
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TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:19 pm

Award A Day Of Field For MsSelby Image

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Seán » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:24 pm

Splendid article Agnes.
Seán

"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:31 pm

karlhenning wrote:Very interesting, Agnes.

One thing I wonder about:

Agnes Selby wrote:He did not see this as plagiarism but as a good deed performed in aid of poverty-stricken composers. Copyright laws did not exist at the time but a man's honour was at stake where the stealing of another person's intellectual property was concerned. Count Walsegg did all his purchases on the quiet, sending an emissary in quest of compositions.

The first sentence here seems to me at cross purposes with the consequent remarks. It was a matter of honor, and Walsegg practiced guarded discretion in the acts; that appears to suggest that he did understand it to be plagiarism (as his era construed it).

Cheers,
~Karl
Even if he did not understand plagiarism as we understand it, he must
have known that stealing another man's intellectual property would make him
out to be a fool. Why else would he have copied the works he purchased
from composers so that he could present them to his orchestra as his own?

He probably considered it his divine right as a nobleman to use what
he considered an underling's intellect for his own purposes as long as
he was not found out. It is difficult to read his mind but he definitely
did not sue Constanze for claiming the Requiem as her husband's work.

Agnes Selby
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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:35 pm

Thank you Topo and Sean. As you both know
by now, Mozart is my favourite subject.
I do appreciate your comments.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Werner » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:49 pm

A fascinating piece, Agnes. Proof again that the story of the Requiem continues to be of interest, especially with your scholarship revealing previously unknown - at least to me - factors.

Two things that strike me and that I had not known: First, the ages of Walsegg and his beloved Anna. She died at age twenty, and he must have been not much older when it first occurred to him to commission the Requiem from Mozart!

And, at the end of the story, the terms on which he surrendered any rights to the Requiem - fifty ducats and several printed copies of the score. This seems to me a concession on his part of Mozart's rights. And, however many more recent attempts may have been made to improve on Sussmayr's completion of the score, this account does seem to justify using the Sussmayr additions as the authoriitative text of the complete work.
Werner Isler

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:13 pm

Werner wrote:A fascinating piece, Agnes. Proof again that the story of the Requiem continues to be of interest, especially with your scholarship revealing previously unknown - at least to me - factors.

Two things that strike me and that I had not known: First, the ages of Walsegg and his beloved Anna. She died at age twenty, and he must have been not much older when it first occurred to him to commission the Requiem from Mozart!

And, at the end of the story, the terms on which he surrendered any rights to the Requiem - fifty ducats and several printed copies of the score. This seems to me a concession on his part of Mozart's rights. And, however many more recent attempts may have been made to improve on Sussmayr's completion of the score, this account does seem to justify using the Sussmayr additions as the authoriitative text of the complete work.
I agree with you, Werner. The fifty ducats and the extra copies finished
the Count's pretence to ownership of the Requiem. From then on Constanze
used the Requiem as she deemed necessary and even Sussmayr had it
performed at Kremsmunster Abbey as a work composed by Mozart and completed
by his pupil, Sussmayr. Michael Haydn was present at this celebration as attested
by his letter to his wife held by the Mozarteum.

As for other Requiem completions, I too cannot reconcile myself
to other completions and like Sussmayr's the best. This calls for
another bit of research, because I do believe that Sussmayr was
helped by the "zettels" Mozart left behind, as mentioned by Constanze
in her letter to Bretkopf & Hartel.
I have heard it said that no other of Sussmayr's works
shows the genius of his completion of the Requiem. But then,
I have not heard many Sussmayr compositions. To tell the truth,
only one performed by what is today the Philadelphia Chamber Orchestra.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:44 pm

Agnes, thanks once again for enlightening me. I love your articles and hope they enjoy the wide circulation they deserve.
Image

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Werner » Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:07 pm

Is it possible that a Harvard PHD candidate, 2007 vintage, was unable to find all the material that decades of Mozart scholarship revealed to an author whose Mozart research well preceded the year of this dissertation? And who is the author of a pathbreaking biography of Constanze, Mozart's wife?
Werner Isler

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:43 am

Documents go and gone... :lol:
And, hélas, even a "Constanze Mozart,A Pastiche" by Wernie Welby can be dispatched to the net at two hours...and funny! :shock:

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:28 am

xx wrote:
Lance wrote:
Agnes Selby
A few days after Mozart's death a service was held at St. Michael's Church and a Requiem was performed. I wrote to St. Michael's Church and received a polite reply informing me that the singers were listed in the Church records as well as the payment they received from Schikaneder who had organised this Commemorative Service.




As the Australian Mozart scholar David Ian Black has recently shown in his dissertation "Mozart and the Practice of Sacred Music, 1781—91" (Ph.D. diss., Harvard University, 2007) this "list of singers and of the payments they received from Schikaneder" doesn't exist at St. Michael's in Vienna. Unless one assumes that the parish secretary made it all up, this document is a figment of Mrs. Selby's imagination.
xx, I have been breathlessly waiting for your response!!! I have a suggestion to
make, before you contradict me, please write to St. Michael's Church.
No doubt, you will get the same reply I received to my inquiry. As you are
ever so careful not to take anyone's word, I think this is a sound
suggestion. Seeing that you are in Vienna, all you have to do is to
pick up the phone.

Agnes Selby.

[Moderator edit: to delete the offender's name so search engines can't find him.]

Agnes Selby
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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:29 am

Thank you, Ralph for your kind words and thank
you old pal, Werner for defending me.

Regards,
Agnes.

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:44 am

And now, the RequiemStMichael is discovered at .. and it it is
very different..hoh..anohther...Image

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:40 am

Why was the "error" to be at MsSelby... :?: Papers and Opinions are as
variable :!:
This reminds me the Debunking of Spiritism because of a lot of frauds.
But then...

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:45 am

The Staff of StMichael was unable to locate papers...oH,dammmany many possible explications... :)
Perhaps it was rentered to a collector, not to a scholar... :lol:

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Teresa B » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:56 am

And why you always find it irresistible to "correct" Agnes Selby's fine work in an insulting manner is your problem, not hers or ours. There is no way she would fabricate something out of whole cloth. She provided you with her source.

If you disagree with someone's scholarly work, there is obviously a respectful way to do it, and by your refusal to do so, you shrink your own credibility.

Cheers,
Teresa

P.S. Agnes, thanks for the article--I enjoyed it!
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:37 pm

Thank you Teresa. As you know, xx has been persecuting
me for the past many years. Under a variety of names, but
always recognisable from his writings.

Love,
Agnes.

[Moderator edit: to delete the offender's name so search engines can't find him.]

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Chalkperson » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:01 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:Thank you Teresa. As you know, xx has been persecuting
me for the past many years. Under a variety of names, but
always recognisable from his writings.

Love,
Agnes.
xx should feel ashamed at his continuing salvo of insults at you, it is he that is in the wrong, if he feels he has different facts/evidence/dates from the info you have then they could be offered in a gracious way to provoke discussion, continuing to insult you every time you write something is unforgivable, he never posts on any other subject, if he is very knowledgable then maybe he should try writing long and highly informative articles for all of us to read, taking cheap shots at you every time you publish a new article shows just how close to the gutter he is...

[Moderator edit: to delete the offender's name so search engines can't find him.]
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

Agnes Selby
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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:44 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:Thank you Teresa. As you know, xx has been persecuting
me for the past many years. Under a variety of names, but
always recognisable from his writings.

Love,
Agnes.
xx should feel ashamed at his continuing salvo of insults at you, it is he that is in the wrong, if he feels he has different facts/evidence/dates from the info you have then they could be offered in a gracious way to provoke discussion, continuing to insult you every time you write something is unforgivable, he never posts on any other subject, if he is very knowledgable then maybe he should try writing long and highly informative articles for all of us to read, taking cheap shots at you every time you publish a new article shows just how close to the gutter he is...
Thank you, Chalkie. I agree. He should write an informative article
and then we could all learn something from his vast knowledge.
Really, he does get under my skin after all these years, but I have decided to ignore him from now on.

Regards,
Agnes.

[Moderator edit: to delete the offender's name so search engines can't find him.]

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Werner » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:11 pm

Who in heck is xx, anyway?

We've seen his (her?) contemptuous pieces on Agnes' writings, as well as in the matter of Minona von Stakelberg..

There are enough insults spread by this source. The question arises: is this all patent medicine, or is any of it of value? Perhaps xx will be gracious enough to present us with a listing of his (her) credentials, so we can evaluate all the verbiage from this source.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Donald Isler » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:22 pm

No one seems to know who xx is, or what his credentials are, if he has any. Of course, he may not have any. Yet, he chooses to follow around, and attack a known scholar with publications to her name. Though he lacks the guts to even tell us who he is.

As for the assumption that the scholar to whom he refers must know the truth, because he has a Ph.D, I am reminded of a neighbor of many years ago (an MD, by the way!) who said that Ph.D stands for "Prepares hot dinners." That is a little strong, perhaps, but certainly a doctorate isn't always the last word in scholarship, knowledge, or wisdom.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Allen » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:03 pm

Agnes,

Thanks for the article. I enjoyed it immensely.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:56 pm

Allen wrote:Agnes,

Thanks for the article. I enjoyed it immensely.
Thank you Allen.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:08 pm

Donald Isler wrote:No one seems to know who xx is, or what his credentials are, if he has any. Of course, he may not have any. Yet, he chooses to follow around, and attack a known scholar with publications to her name. Though he lacks the guts to even tell us who he is.

As for the assumption that the scholar to whom he refers must know the truth, because he has a Ph.D, I am reminded of a neighbor of many years ago (an MD, by the way!) who said that Ph.D stands for "Prepares hot dinners." That is a little strong, perhaps, but certainly a doctorate isn't always the last word in scholarship, knowledge, or wisdom.
I do not know of the Ph.D person he refers to but I will try and find out
who he is.

xx appears like a ghost who is out to get me. Tom, my 12 year old
grandson is very interested in ghosts, so I will have to write a story
for him about an internet "ghostie" called xx. We already have a ghostie
called "Londera" and another one called "Chronic" (don't laugh).

Regards,
Agnes.

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TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:21 am

If an Introit and a Kyrie are performed for a special Requiem at my Church
I make copies for the Church and me... :)
A Church without notes? :)
--
The Requiem:Mirror of Mozart Performance History, by Bin Ebisawa
(Early Music,May 1992)(below :))

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:26 am

Thank you for that, Topo.

Regards,
Agnes.

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:44 am

Genuine scholarship allways left in doubt any issue...and of course,
any attack is unthinkable.Vanished Documents are not a fabrication.
A lot of motives are at hand.
And unlike youxx or meTopo, MsSelby is MsSelby.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Werner » Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:37 am

Yes, Topo, we do know Ms. Selby. And I have known Ms. Selby, as you call her, as a real person; have known her for years.

xx has yet to reveal himself (herself, itself, whatever.) Enough said.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:42 pm

Dear Mr. xx,

I said I would not respond to you again but have taken pity of
your other incarnation of Mr. {Removed}, and as I know Mr. {Removed} has a bad
ticker (Aussie for the heart), I don't want him to suddenly keel over
from an apoplectic fit.

So here we go:

1). I am delighted to hear that I was the subject of a Mozart-Jahrbuch
article. Here I was living beside the sea in Sydney in blissful, grandmotherly
retirement, and Mozart scholars have suddenly discovered me!!! That
means that I have finally arrived!!! My book,"Constanze Mozart's Beloved",
which is available on Amazon (a little plug does not hurt), has had a few
quiet months, so with the help of the scholarly article you have mentioned,
I better prepare myself for some excellent sales. I have also written to Ms
Geffray to PLEASE SEND ME THE PUBLICATION. I have not been subscribing
to the Mozart Jahrbuch this year as the Euro is truly a "bitch" compare to the
Aussie dollar but I am absolutely dying to see MY name mentioned
in that hallowed publication. It will make my life worth living!!!!

2) As for the Police Files, I know, Mr. {Removed} has had a field day telling me that
they do not exist and that they were burnt in a fire. Mr. xx, you know perfectly
well that this is not true and the files do exist. Somewhere you have got
all this mixed up as the police files rest comfortably in the archives
of the Austrian National Library. I have not had the pleasure of meeting
Dr. Maurer but your story sounds suspiciously like the one you told me
in your {Removed} incarnation about Ms. Geffray never having met or heard of me.
(Did you know she has recently been most kind to our mutual friend,
Liz Ringrose, who has used my introduction to meet Ms. Geffray
at the Mozarteum?).

3) Well it must have been a "ghostie" who wrote to me and to Dr. Levine
that the list of performers at St. Michael's Church exists but not what
was peformed on that crucial night.

4) Morgan Flannery lives in London where he has a teaching job.
The last I saw him was over a capuccino at the Sydney seaside suburb of Woolloomooloo, where good capos can be found. Morgan has since
his Prague adventure got married and has to now "earn his crust".
It is true, he has yet to present his findings but I did not realize
it was my duty to inform you of his inability to complete his
thesis in time. You see, the Lichnowsky files were indeed burnt
during World War II by the Germans, and information is difficult
to find although he has a good bit of material available. The Germans
did a lot of damage to beautiful Prague!!! As a very young and enthusiastic
warrior of that era, you must remember it well.

Well, bye -bye! I hope you will continue enjoying your retirement
and amuse yourself the best you can. You might even like to buy
the recently published book on Mozart written by that old Jewish
gentleman you so enjoyed tormenting when you had nothing to torment
me with.

Agnes Selby.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Teresa B » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:14 pm

:lol: Well said, Agnes.
Love,
Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:19 pm

Teresa B wrote::lol: Well said, Agnes.
Love,
Teresa
Thanks, Teresa. I think I have just remembered
Mr. xx's third alias. I think it was Grunraker or
something like that.

Love,
Agnes.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:41 am

I hope you are having a good time, Mr. {Removed}.

Do you really know what you sound like to a sane
audience? Think about it! You sound like a vindictive
old man and if you think anyone is interested in
your rantings and ravings on this forum, you are sadly
mistaken.

I am almost sorry for you. It seems you have nothing better
to do than to wallow in nastiness.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by pizza » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:11 am

If anything, he sounds extremely jealous of your scholarship, Agnes. Anyone who understands the process of historical research and the production of evidence can see through his pretensions. Unfortunately the Internet offers a forum to psychologically impaired folk, but that usually can't be avoided. They're not worth the effort to respond.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Teresa B » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:39 am

pizza wrote: They're not worth the effort to respond.
Couldn't have said it better.
Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:44 pm

xx wrote: ...the Schikaneder list from 1791 at St. Michael's doesn't exist...
I doubt it very much.Perhaps lost as the moontapes :) bbut...
Even a currently no-existence at St.Michael is not proof of no-existence
in the past... :)
And copies are everywhere...but for originals,even The Fairy Queen was "sold" to the Japanese Collector :lol:
--

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:22 pm

Agnes Selby wrote: I am almost sorry for you. It seems you have nothing better
to do than to wallow in nastiness.
Sad but true Agnes, I feel sorry for him too, I would have thought someone with his intellect and knowledge would use that to become a valued contributor to this site, but no, he just wants to pick on and insult you...they call that stalking don't they...
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:36 pm

Yes, They call it stalking. I will take Pizza's amd Teresa's
advice and not respond to his baiting.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:02 pm

Donald Isler wrote:No one seems to know who xx is, or what his credentials are, if he has any. Of course, he may not have any. Yet, he chooses to follow around, and attack a known scholar with publications to her name. Though he lacks the guts to even tell us who he is.
Gee, I wonder if Robert Newman has wandered off his reservation over there with Rod Corkin. Anyone notice any similarities in writing styles or verbosity?

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His name has been scratched off all the stelae in the kingdom.
Corlyss
Contessa d'EM, a carbon-based life form

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:33 am

Thank you very much. I hope it is the end
of a 9-year long persecution.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Teresa B » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:12 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Donald Isler wrote:No one seems to know who xx is, or what his credentials are, if he has any. Of course, he may not have any. Yet, he chooses to follow around, and attack a known scholar with publications to her name. Though he lacks the guts to even tell us who he is.
Gee, I wonder if Robert Newman has wandered off his reservation over there with Rod Corkin. Anyone notice any similarities in writing styles or verbosity?

His name has been scratched off all the stelae in the kingdom.
Good riddance! Having read the ridiculous posts by both of them on the Mozart sites and here, I think this guy and Newman are two different harrassers. Newman worked by florid, nonsensical prose-liferation to the point of drowning everyone and everything in its path. This weirdo was much more focused in his stalking of Agnes's articles and attempts to destroy her scholarship.

Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:36 am

Werner wrote: Yes, Topo, we do know Ms. Selby. And I have known Ms. Selby, as you call her, as a real person; have known her for years.
Topo[img]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0015.gif[/img] wrote:
Thanks,Selby :)

I fear that this rude-young treatment can bother to Werner also...I chose the "MsSelby" for discard...Ms.Selby is for an old single lady or a very young
college girl...for the latter of course, at heart. "MsSelby" as "MsVesely" as pronouced by an Abbess of StVicent to a schoolgirl with sparkly
eyes.With the irony of a Nephew-In-Law,of course.
The "Agnes" as unthinkable as the "Mrs.Selby" in absence of an "Mr.Selby" ,of Anonymous Doctors.This brings to my memory the sadness of Bette
Davis when she spoke of her husbands as intolerants to the "Mr.Davis" treatment at public sites...
Then I parody the "O,MsSelby" of a benevolent gossip.Its not my intention to deep' at the profound jealousy of your known acquaintances of years...
All of you can to take Topo as one of the ghosts... its the best way for all.A ghost have license to touch here and there and to be noisy...
By the way,im very intrigued for the two named ghosts..for me no joke,of course...but im ...well... educated and silent and I dont ask...then I go to the
bedroom and cry...yes,its the old school with values.
Glances,
Topo

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:24 pm

Topo, you may call me Agnes. All my friends do.
And yes, Werner and his family are old friends whose
friendship a value very much.

Agnes.

TopoGigio

Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by TopoGigio » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:54 am

Thank you,Agnes... what beautiful name...and the invitation :?:Image
(Topo impersonating an Obnoxioux NephewInLaw)
Better I left the thread now... :lol:


Agnes wrote: Dear Phillip (Wilcher)
...
Thank you for letting me know about the Bourbaki Ensemble.

I would like to invite you to the Selby & Friends concert featuring the works of Turina, Beethoven and Dvorak. Please let me know if you wish to attend and two complimentary tickets will be left for you at either venue, St. Andrew's Cathedral on July 31 at 7.00 p.m. or the Sunday afternoon concert at Monte Sant' Angelo in North Sydney on July 29.
Please let me know.

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Re: Agnes Selby: The Provenance of the Requiem

Post by Agnes Selby » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:10 am

TopoGigio wrote:Thank you,Agnes... what beautiful name...and the invitation :?:Image
(Topo impersonating an Obnoxioux NephewInLaw)
Better I left the thread now... :lol:


Agnes wrote: Dear Phillip (Wilcher)
...
Thank you for letting me know about the Bourbaki Ensemble.

I would like to invite you to the Selby & Friends concert featuring the works of Turina, Beethoven and Dvorak. Please let me know if you wish to attend and two complimentary tickets will be left for you at either venue, St. Andrew's Cathedral on July 31 at 7.00 p.m. or the Sunday afternoon concert at Monte Sant' Angelo in North Sydney on July 29.
Please let me know.
Thank you Topo for complimenting me on my name.

Selby & Friends, (the Selby is my daughter Kathryn) are now resident
artists at the City Recital Hall and no longer perform at the above mentioned venues.
Regards,
Agnes.

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