Why is Bach so flippin' hard to play on piano?

[IcedNote]

OK, what am I missing here? One of the greatest composers of all time writes all of this beautiful music, but why is it so damn hard to play on the piano? I mean, a lot of the WTC doesn't exactly fit the hands very well. I could just suck at piano (although I did take lessons for the better part of 14 years). Yeah, yeah...sometimes we'd like 4 voices to be heard independently, and that's not the easiest thing to do with just two hands. But still...

And I must be on to something here, because many schools require you to play one Bach piece for your audition. Surely that's not just a coincidence.

Teresa? Lance? Islers?

-G

[living_stradivarius]

I'd suggest listening to multiple interpretations of Bach and even watching videos of Bach performances to see how professionals phrase his works. Even try some Glenn Gould discs.

[barney]

Irritatingly, I can't remember where I read this (it might have been on CMG), but where romantic piano works have a melody line and harmonic accompaniment, a Bach fugue has several distinct voices each of which must be individually delineated. Very, very challenging.

[John F]

Bach's keyboard instruments were the organ and harpsichord, which have two manuals (keyboards) or sometimes more. This allows both hands to be playing in the same pitch range, even some of the same notes, at the same time without getting in each other's way. Later in life Bach knew about the piano, was indeed a kind of salesman for Silbermann's instruments, but I don't believe he actually composed any music for it.

Not all of Bach's keyboard music was composed for two-keyboard instruments, and if he didn't have a composer's familiarity with the piano, he knew the clavichord well. And he wrote many teaching pieces for keyboard players. So I should think there must be quite a few Bach works which are reasonably comfortable to play on the piano. Not being a piano player, however, I'm not speaking from personal experience.

As for auditions, Bach pieces (and not just the many fugues) may be favored because his contrapuntal style requires independence of the hands and fingers to a greater degree than, say, Mozart's and Beethoven's. It's a test of one's keyboard technique. Also, I remember that a friend had to sight-read Bach chorales at the keyboard to be accepted as a music major at his college. Not such much a matter of keyboard technique - the chorales are essentially sequences of chords with long note values - but rather of musical literacy.

So if you're given a choice of Bach pieces to play at an audition, stay away from the Goldberg Variations for example and look for pieces that keep your hands out of each other's way. I don't know the Bach keyboard repertoire well enough to make specific suggestions, but maybe others here do.

P.S. Another feature of the organ and harpsichord is that they require less strength and effort to play than the modern piano. The touch being lighter, and dynamics not being an issue, it's not so hard to get around the keyboard and make all the notes sound.

[Teresa B]

John's post above makes some good points. The keyboard instruments in Bach's day were different, and that's undoubtedly one reason. As far as physiology, the difficulties in Bach to me lie mainly in the contrapuntal nature of it. It's extremely difficult to play independently in each hand while melding the piece into a coherent whole--it's almost impossible until you get the piece down technically so well that your hands move automatically. You can then concentrate on the "holistic" impression you want to make out of the entire thing.

If you've been doing Bach since the inception of your piano lessons (and he did write the Notebook for Anna Magdalena, the Little Preludes and Fugues, the Inventions, the Chorales and other pieces that are very accessible), you have developed the technique you need for the BAD stuff.

I have no secrets to learning Bach--Perhaps Don or one of the other pianists here can help. It helps me to first learn the independent parts, and then when I put them together, I find out the trickiest passages and try to figure out why they trip me up--it's usually because the hands have to do something simultaneously that they just don't want to do--one hand going in a single direction while the other changes direction a couple of times, or both hands playing two outer voices while the middle voice is divided between them, yet has the theme--so it's necessary to single out those areas and work on them until they're smooth.

If you actually have an audition coming up, I agree, not the Goldbergs! Usually they specify what they want--WTC is always a good bet. I think the G Major from Vol 1 is lovely, as is the E Major (easy prelude!) and the B-Flat (easy prelude that sounds very cool). For a long piece, I love the Italian Concerto. The 1st mvt would be nice for an audition.

I am currently working on the Keyboard Concerto no 5 in F minor. I like this one, as it's not much more difficult page by page than a 2-part Invention, and it is ony 10 minutes long in toto! (Of course, getting the finale up to tempo...)

Above all, have FUN!
Teresa

[Beckmesser]

Many years ago I spoke with pianist Jerome Lowenthal after a piano recital he had just performed. He confessed that his knees were knocking together before he walked on stage to play Bach (he played one of the suites) while the music of other composers caused no such anxiety. If I recall his explanation: everything in Bach’s music is so “exposed.” Make a mistake and one risks the whole thing crashing to a halt. With most other composers (Liszt, perhaps) he could drop notes or “fudge” here and there and no one would notice.

I’m strictly an amateur pianist but I have been playing Bach’s music for about 50 years. I agree that it’s difficult—at least it is for me. It demands real finger independence (a basic part of piano technique) but also independence of hands. But I love Bach’s keyboard music so much that I am willing to invest the days of practice that go into learning a single piece.

In the past few years I have worked my way through almost all of Book II of the WTC (my favorite of the two sets). I seem to spend an inordinate amount of time carefully working out the fingering for the fugues. The preludes are typically written for two voices and lie comfortably under the hands, but the fugues are another matter. I sometimes find myself going through some incredible contortions to negotiate this music.

Some of my observations:

• In general I try to avoid playing black keys with the thumbs but there are times when that seems to be unavoidable. The fugues having key signatures with many black keys offer the greatest challenges.
• I try to observe the note values strictly, which means that one or more fingers are often sustaining a note while others in the same hand are playing, not always an easy thing to do. I rely heavily on "finger pedaling" in such situations if the hand needs to be shifted in order to reach other keys or if a finger needs to be freed up to play another note.
• Sometimes there will be a series of parallel notes (typically thirds or sixths) in the same hand which can be difficult to play legato.
• There are times when I must resort to some rather odd finger patterns to play a series of notes (e.g., swinging the fourth finger over the fifth or pulling the fourth or fifth fingers under the palm).
• There are occasions when I need to "catch" a key that has already been depressed by a finger in the other hand so that it remains depressed for the full note value. That frees up the other hand for other business. I use the pedal very sparingly.
• And then there are the "pileups" where both hands must play in the same area of the keyboard (it has got to be easier on a double-manual harpsichord!!). As John Francis noted, the Goldberg Variations were obviously composed for a double-manual harpsichord.

I probably spend several hours working out the fingering for each fugue and then carefully write it out for nearly every note (except where it is obvious or inevitable). My copy of the G Sharp Minor Fugue is a blizzard of pencil markings. But that’s just the beginning of my learning process. After that comes hours of careful practice just to master all the little challenges of coordination that are to be found in practically every measure. Once I’ve learned to play the notes comes the more pleasurable task of making it sound musical and not just a finger exercise.

Has anyone found an easier way? I sure would like to know.

On a lighter note . . . I was browsing in the public library at Lincoln Center and came across the score for "The Short-Tempered Clavier" by P.D.Q. Bach (aka Peter Shickele). The subtitle was "Preludes and fugues in all the major and minor keys except for the really hard ones."

[Teresa B]

I probably spend several hours working out the fingering for each fugue and then carefully write it out for nearly every note

I didn't mention this, but I do the same thing in the very beginning. I find it helps immensely to learn the parts, because the instant cue to use a particular finger gets the hand in the habit of playing the passage this way each time. By contrast, I rarely feel the need to write in many fingerings for other composers. Also, one other trick--be sure to have an "escape" route if you inadvertently use a wrong finger and come up short on a run! (Or am I the only one who does this? ) Its good to occasionally practice playing the run without stumbling even if you have an incorrect finger on some note--this sort of on-the-fly correction is essential to not missing a beat.

Teresa

P.S. Ah, yes, PDQ is a fav of mine. I have the score for the "Toot Suite" including the "Two-Part Contraption".

[jbuck919]

Teresa? Lance? Islers?

-G

And what am I, chopped liver?

It would be helpful to know why you are singling out Bach since none ofl the great keyboard composers is easy, at least in their mature works. What if anything do you play that you find it "easy" in comparison to Bach?

[SueCan]

I'm writing this in order to put off practising for even a few minutes For 15 years, I played nothing but Bach, and I continue to love his music deeply. Recently though, I seem to have taken a violent left turn and am immersed in the Russians. Who would think Life's Change would send you skidding into the late Romantics! Ah well, I digress.

All the ideas on this thread are great, especially 'following' voices through the weft (word?) of Bach's polyphonic fabric. I agree with the fingering comments and LOVE that F- Concerto! I developed two helpful devices while personally recording the WTC 1 in 1985. (Funny thing, I now much prefer WTC II, but don't know if I have it in me to memorize all that too!)

May I return to fingering? Sorry, this is probably not of interest to the non-pianists on this board, but it's essential for us 'small-muscle athletes' at the piano. I finger all pieces, particularly at difficult turnings, because changing fingering later destroys kinesthetic memory. I write it in dark blue pencil so I SEE it. This saves hours later in memorizing and in security. Every changed fingering remains a weaker point in a piece.

- at points where its awkward to play two voices in one hand, write in the fingering as if it's a CHORD with the 'held note' in brackets. ie. 5/(3) Stop at that point and check there is no tension in your forearm, wrist or fingers due to pressing into the keybed. Tension takes away the willowy character of Bach's oh-so-horizontal melodies, and leaves YOU not breathing. To check for tense holding, gently wiggle your hand from side to side with a light finger-contact on the depressed key. If it's fine, continue to the next awkward spot.

- the thumb is essential in Bach. He was the first to use it, even on black keys. So, just a few times play your hands separately with exclusive attention on your thumb's 'appearances' to make sure it remains limpid and articulate. "Just noticing makes it so".

- musically, I like to sing another voice while playing the others. Also to dream up an 'atmosphere' or tone quality which I like enough to keep through the entire piece as Bach demands.

- Preludes often have a cello-continuo quality to the bass (much of Bach is built from the bass up). Find a portamento sound that imitates a bow-stroke or bassoon. It gives great momentum to a piece.

- Finally, rhythm. If you need to articulate the beginning of a phrase, cut the previous note precisely in half (not 'sort of shorter' to start afresh). And to rit at the end of a piece, count out loud subdividing the beats of the last couple of bars. It makes a more disciplined convincing conclusion, rather than romanticized rubato.

- As far as rep, I think movements from French Suites are easier. And transcriptions (please not more Jesu Joy! -- just kidding). Personally, I love the Tocattas and Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, but you need some chops and big concept to do them.

Now, back to Rachmaninoff. Feel free to disagree, anyone! Yours, Sue

[Lance]

Well, talk about having a mini master class from a fine Bach player, our SueCan has given us all some secrets in obtaining the goals you need. I have seen/heard Sue Hammond perform Bach and even have some recordings of her playing this composer. So, all concerned, please read carefully her comments about this. I know we have other piano teachers and performers on CMG and this will surely be of interest to them as well.

Thank you, SueCan, for taking the time to write this out so carefully. And next time you're in town, I want to hear an updated version of the Bach/Rummel transcription!

[Teresa B]

Teresa? Lance? Islers?

-G

And what am I, chopped liver?

It would be helpful to know why you are singling out Bach since none ofl the great keyboard composers is easy, at least in their mature works. What if anything do you play that you find it "easy" in comparison to Bach?

Definitely, John, you are NOT chopped liver! Perhaps Icednote is not as familiar with your keyboard expertise. (Truly, I am an amateur and I sure don't have all the answers.) I agree with everything Sue said above--great, specific ideas!

I dunno about everyone else, but I find Bach has his difficulties, but so does every other composer. It may be that some people find Bach harder due to their particular training history, their hands, or other factors. I find pieces with rapidly moving big chords difficult, and pieces requiring fast light runs easier. I have less trouble with Mozart than with Bach fugues, which are difficult, especially when they have 3 or 4 voices and they get into quite dense counterpoint!

Teresa

[SueCan]

Personally, I LIKE chopped liver! Hope I didn't offend anyone with a pedantic post. I actually find these questions fascinating. Thanks, Teresa, for your enthusiasm. Yes, those big-chord and octave pieces are murderous. I'm trying to get the Rach B-flat Prelude 'in hand', and feel in need of finger-extenders! But oh, how I love the grand tolling-bell romantic sweep of that piece. I too like those pearling Mozart passages. (wondering to myself ... "So why the heck am I deeply engrossed in Opus 111?!" ... masochism is a terrible thing).

[Auntie Lynn]

It's all about ties and suspensions; many times, fingers on the same hand have to play with different pressures - even in the fast stuff...

[IcedNote]

And what am I, chopped liver?

It would be helpful to know why you are singling out Bach since none ofl the great keyboard composers is easy, at least in their mature works. What if anything do you play that you find it "easy" in comparison to Bach?

Sorry, John! I had no idea you were a pianist!

As to your question, I guess Bach just looks deceptively easy...unlike Liszt's more difficult pieces, for example.

But that's not the reason I posted about Bach. The reason is that a couple of days ago my friend and I were talking about the WTC, and this came up. Seeing that I have such a wonderful, knowledgeable group of folks at my disposal here, I thought I'd run it by everyone.

-G

[Chalkperson]

Sorry, John! I had no idea you were a pianist!

Better than that he's an Organist...

[Jack Kelso]

Who was the famous pianist who said, "If you can play Bach and Schumann you can play anything!"

Gilels...?! Richter...!? Bülow...?! Someone else......?

Jack

[jbuck919]

Who was the famous pianist who said, "If you can play Bach and Schumann you can play anything!"

Gilels...?! Richter...!? Bülow...?! Someone else......?

Jack

My high school piano teacher dear old Mrs. Troidle used to say that; I didn't realize it was not original with her.

BTW the proven (as in demonstrated, not just my opinion) way to learn technique is "none of the above" but finger exercises. That fact has been the downfall of many an enthusiastic young but dispirited young piano student.) I used the classic set by Charles-Marie Hanon (it was only a few years ago that I learned his first name and realized that he was French).

Having said that, one learns Bach the same way one learns anything. To paraphrase what Sue wrote, finger, stick to your fingering (play each passage exactly the same way every time), then practice, practice, practice. As Tovey said, it is a question of developing something exactly analogous to athletic good form.

[anasazi]

I'm not a professional grade pianist, but the one insight that I happened upon (thanks to the editor of one of my Bach publications) and which none of my old piano teachers had ever offered me, was (and this applies to J.S. Bach especially) that I didn't have to keep my right hand in the treble and my left hand in the bass. In other words, I finally learned to use my left hand to sometimes handle a note above middle C and my right hand, vica verca. Believe it or not, this made playing the WTC and Inventions SOOOO much simpler.

I know this probably sounds stupid or something, I don't even have a degree in anything. And I am no Glenn Gould or anything, but now I understand the position or my hands and how to use the right fingers on the right notes. It did make a huge difference to me.

[dulcinea]

As I have said often enough, the piano--a percussion instrument--is simply not right for music that was written for the harpsichord, which is basically an string instrument; why do you think Bach and Scarlatti sound so well on the guitar?

[jbuck919]

As I have said often enough, the piano--a percussion instrument--is simply not right for music that was written for the harpsichord, which is basically an string instrument; why do you think Bach and Scarlatti sound so well on the guitar?

That is not to the point when it comes to execution. The fingering and technique would be the same. One almost never pedals with Bach--both instruments are damped by lifting the fingers from the key. In addition, expressive dynamic change (crescendo and decrescendo) are inappropriate in playing Bach on the piano even though the instrument is capable of them. The only adjustment would be related to a difference in key length. and that is arbitrary as it is perfectly possible to construct a harpsichord with piano-size keys and deviations from this tend to be related to the maker's desire or lack thereof to be intentionally archaic (tuning presents the same problem).

[anasazi]

As I have said often enough, the piano--a percussion instrument--is simply not right for music that was written for the harpsichord, which is basically an string instrument; why do you think Bach and Scarlatti sound so well on the guitar?

Harpsichord... or Clavichord? Could be either, or both. But a Harpsichord is an instrument where the strings are plucked, and a clavichord is an instrument, that Bach definitely would have used and was familiar with, where the strings are struck (or hammered). In other words, another 'percussion' instrument, like the piano.

But then Bach was probably most familiar with the organ, he was after all, not only a very good composer for it, but during one part of his career, he was considered an expert and called upon to test new instruments. But the organ is not a stringed instrument at all.

I guess since I primarily play a modern piano, I kind of like my Bach on that instrument. But really, I think his music comes closest to transcending any particular instrument, as that of any composer who ever lived. That's where Wendy Carlos comes in. ;-0

[Wallingford]

I don't find Bach unpianistic in the least: as for my own technique (when it still was up to scratch), things only got rough when I got to the 5-voice, 2-part fugues.

But most of the other stuff's quite natural. I've found it's best to pedal only in a very sparing manner, with taste & discretion. Actually, using a fairly generous amount of finger legato (often delaying lifting up till after two or three more notes have passed) is a welcome touch. Just be sure to mix it with sharper articulations elsewhere.

Some solo works are fine object lessons in phrasing with this sort of technique: the C-minor fugue, from WTC Book I, is a top-notch example.