The Clarinet Thread

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:08 am

. . . because we've already got "Another Violin Thread." Where's the outrage?

Fight the outrage with The Cool:

Rhapsody in Carotene

Cheers,
~Karl

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:25 am

Well, recently listened to the Saint-Saens clarinet sonata. S-S is not normally my most favorite composer but this piece is a small gem. The performance was from one of my preferred clarinetists, Gervase de Peyer.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:29 am

Some of my own recent listening has been some late-ish Mozart curios with clarinets & basset horns.

Cheers,
~Karl

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:09 am

karlhenning wrote:Some of my own recent listening has been some late-ish Mozart curios with clarinets & basset horns.

Cheers,
~Karl

Indeed, I have and enjoy the Sabine Meyer + friends set of Mozart chamber music for clarinet and clarinet+basset horns. Beautiful little pieces, enough to make me want to become a free-mason.

Post by **Lance** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:21 am

Karl - this is quite incredible! The carrot even SOUNDS like a clarinet. Truthfully, is what we see there REAL? How long would the carrot last, in your opinion, before it got soggy and not render sound? It would seem to me, because of the length of the carrot, that the pitch would be higher since it does not emulate the full length of a conventional clarinet.

An EXCELLENT idea for a thread, too. I've been listening to clarinet material myself of late.

•Charles Villiers Stanford: Clarinet Concerto w/Robert Plane, clarinet/others - Naxos 8.570356
•Stanford: Clarinet Sonata; Piano Trio #3, 2 Fantasies w/Robert Plane, clarinet/others - Naxos 8.570416

Why Stanford? We have a wonderful clarinetist in this area (Timothy B. Perry) who is planning a recital with some of Stanford's works. First time I've heard these charming pieces.

karlhenning wrote:. . . because we've already got "Another Violin Thread." Where's the outrage?

Fight the outrage with The Cool:

Rhapsody in Carotene

Cheers,
~Karl

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:59 am

Lance wrote:Karl - this is quite incredible! The carrot even SOUNDS like a clarinet. Truthfully, is what we see there REAL? How long would the carrot last, in your opinion, before it got soggy and not render sound? It would seem to me, because of the length of the carrot, that the pitch would be higher since it does not emulate the full length of a conventional clarinet.

An EXCELLENT idea for a thread, too. I've been listening to clarinet material myself of late.

•Charles Villiers Stanford: Clarinet Concerto w/Robert Plane, clarinet/others - Naxos 8.570356
•Stanford: Clarinet Sonata; Piano Trio #3, 2 Fantasies w/Robert Plane, clarinet/others - Naxos 8.570416

Why Stanford? We have a wonderful clarinetist in this area (Timothy B. Perry) who is planning a recital with some of Stanford's works. First time I've heard these charming pieces.

Mention of that British music reminds me, it may be time to listen to the Finzi clarinet concerto again.

gfweis · Post by **gfweis** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:31 am

Do you clarinet experts have an opinion on Benny Goodman's Mozart recordings (at Tanglewood, as I recall)? I first heard the concerto and the quintet on an lp, and liked both performances, especially the quintet. Curiously, I just last night ordered the cd. Some have criticized his playing, saying it was in the wrong style. Although I am a mere amateur, I have heard many recordings of these works over the decades, and I at least didn't hear anything untoward. Perhaps I just missed something. What I did hear was a lot of love from all the quintet members, and that probably helped sell it to me.

Auntie Lynn · Post by **Auntie Lynn** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:04 pm

Oh, boy, here comes Auntie Lynn again - I suppose she's going to tell us she plays the clarinet...you just betcha. Took it up in high school. Wanted to play all that Sousa stuff (still do). Worked my way up to concertmistress. Also, played in the pep band in school and college. RE: Benny Goodman - he was a good as it gets. Copland wrote his wonderful oeuvre just for BG. Also love Richard Stoltzman - he comes here all the time. Anyway, as pertains to a lot of the discussion on these boards, about every generation, new scholarship, interpretations, etc. etc. develops which accounts for changes in the musical dynamic...doesn't mean it's wrong, just means its different.

Mama bought me a beautiful Buffet, which I sold in a moment of absolute insanity - but they have reissued the model - problem is, it's $10,000 - hope they take Monopoly money...

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:07 pm

I'm never selling either of my Buffets!

Cheers,
~Karl

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:23 pm

gfweis wrote:Do you clarinet experts have an opinion on Benny Goodman's Mozart recordings (at Tanglewood, as I recall)?

I don't really recall Goodman's Mozart recordings, my parents hasd that LP.
I do know that Goodman's attempt to play the Nielsen Concerto is absolutely terrible...he simply couldn't play it. I can't listen to the recording....I get a few minutes into it, and I have to change to something else.
I cannot understand why he wanted to record it, or why that recording was even released...

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:38 am

Nothing is quite as bad — or, nothing bad is bad in quite the same way — as a bad Nielsen concerto.

Could Goodman have forestalled issue of the recording, if he had wished? Was he himself displeased with the recording?

Ah, the piling up of imponderables . . . .

Cheers,
~Karl

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:52 am

karlhenning wrote: Could Goodman have forestalled issue of the recording, if he had wished? Was he himself displeased with the recording?

Karl, have you heard it?? I can't imagine why anyone would want it released, either performer or producer...

Post by **Lance** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:17 am

I have long enjoyed Goodman in his usual element. He seems to be a "crossover" performer long before the term was as prevalent as it is now. For me, it is very interesting to hear a jazz artist trying his/her hand at the classical repertoire. I thought Goodman's Mozart Clarinet Concerto and the Clarinet Quintet along with the von Weber Clarinet Concertos were fairly good even though, at times, I thought Goodman might be somewhat out of his element. Still, Goodman was a consummate artist and wonderful musician. He must have had a penchant for the classical literature deep within. The Nielsen Clarinet Concerto was not high on my list. I'm not particularly attracted to the work by anyone. Why issue some of this material? Well, the Chicago Symphony sells, Goodman sells, Martinon sells, and Morton Gould sells. Because of these rather "unique" collaborations, classical music lovers will buy. Just as I did! Goodman performed more classical music than many people know. When the Musical Heritage Society issued several of his classical music CDs, I jumped on the bandwagon. These include Brahms' Trio in a, Op. 114 and Quintet in b, Op. 115; Beethovens Clarinet Trio, Op. 11, and von Weber's Clarinet Quintet, Op. 34. Goodman performed with the Berkshire String Quartet, Leon Pommers, piano. He was in great company!

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:54 am

Heck148 wrote:
gfweis wrote:Do you clarinet experts have an opinion on Benny Goodman's Mozart recordings (at Tanglewood, as I recall)?
I don't really recall Goodman's Mozart recordings, my parents hasd that LP.
I do know that Goodman's attempt to play the Nielsen Concerto is absolutely terrible...he simply couldn't play it. I can't listen to the recording....I get a few minutes into it, and I have to change to something else.
I cannot understand why he wanted to record it, or why that recording was even released...

Nielsen, that's the concerto with the incessant rat-a-tat-tat of the snare drum during the entire concerto? Maybe Goodman should have recorded it with Gene Krupa. Seriously, it he is going to murder a work, better that turd!

diegobueno · Post by **diegobueno** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:06 pm

The Goodman recording of the Nielsen Concerto times in at a full half hour, easily the longest rendition on record, which shows what kind of tempo compromises had to be taken in order for Goodman not to totally fall on his face. It's a pretty dull performance.

However, one of Goodman's best classical recordings is of another finger-twister, Contrasts, with Szigeti and Bartók. Perhaps the two Hungarians demonstrated to him that the Hungarian folk dances also were all about spontaneity, just like jazz. Goodman really seems to get Bartók's music, while Nielsen just leaves him trying to keep up.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:21 pm

nut-job wrote: Nielsen, that's the concerto with the incessant rat-a-tat-tat of the snare drum during the entire concerto?

5th Symphony, IIRC, it's kind of like a clarinet concerto!!

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:26 pm

diegobueno wrote:The Goodman recording of the Nielsen Concerto times in at a full half hour, easily the longest rendition on record, which shows what kind of tempo compromises had to be taken in order for Goodman not to totally fall on his face.

even with tempo compromises, he's on his face most of the time...

However, one of Goodman's best classical recordings is of another finger-twister, Contrasts, with Szigeti and Bartók.

wasn't that piece written for him?? didn't he play the first performance??

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:17 pm

Heck148 wrote:
nut-job wrote: Nielsen, that's the concerto with the incessant rat-a-tat-tat of the snare drum during the entire concerto?
5th Symphony, IIRC, it's kind of like a clarinet concerto!!

I checked, both recordings I have of the concerto list two soloists, clarinet and percussion. A lot to like in that concerto, but the drum just irritates the hell out of me.

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:32 pm

What fun! A clarinet thread starting with a carrot-net! The vegetable gets a pretty good sound--why are we wasting so much money on grenadilla? Buffet Crampon should look into this. After all, carrots are more easily renewable than mpingo trees!

Perhaps Goodman would have done better on a carrot-net?

Actually, I've been warned off from Goodman's classical recordings so vociferously that I've never heard them.

I restrict myself to listening to his jazz recordings, where it's hard to fault him. Listening now to "Willow Weep for Me" on the Yale University Music Library Goodman collection, volume 8. Does anyone know what kind(s) of clarinet Goodman played during his career?

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:41 pm

Welcome to the site, Nancy! Kick your shoes off and set a spell. How's about tellin' us a little about yourself in the Introduce-yourself thread? Nice to have another woman here amongst all this testosterone.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:25 pm

Heck148 wrote:
karlhenning wrote: Could Goodman have forestalled issue of the recording, if he had wished? Was he himself displeased with the recording?
Karl, have you heard it?? I can't imagine why anyone would want it released, either performer or producer...

I have not, Heck.

Cheers,
~Karl

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:28 pm

NancyElla wrote:Actually, I've been warned off from Goodman's classical recordings so vociferously that I've never heard them. :?

Welcome, Nancy!

It's an age since I heard it, but I have heard Goodman's recording of the Stravinsky Ebony Concerto, and the Bartók Contrasts. I probably still have the cassette around; but I haven't troubled to 'upgrade' that to a CD.

Cheers,
~Karl

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:22 pm

So I'm guessing that Benny Goodman isn't the favorite clarinetist of anyone here. . . Who are your current frontrunners? In my late night rambles on YouTube, I've come across some scary new (to me) clarinetists--Cristo Barrios, Julian Bliss (with videos from when he was 4!), and perhaps the scariest, Martin Frost. Your nominees?

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:09 pm

NancyElla wrote:So I'm guessing that Benny Goodman isn't the favorite clarinetist of anyone here. . . Who are your current frontrunners? In my late night rambles on YouTube, I've come across some scary new (to me) clarinetists--Cristo Barrios, Julian Bliss (with videos from when he was 4!), and perhaps the scariest, Martin Frost. Your nominees?

What is scary about Martin Frost, he's one of the finest Clarinetist's around, I also like David Shifrin and Thea King, and, of course Karl Leister who sadly passed away last year, he made some incredible recordings, his Brahm's Sonatas etc with the Amadeus Quartet are simply stunning...

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:06 pm

NancyElla wrote:So I'm guessing that Benny Goodman isn't the favorite clarinetist of anyone here. . . Who are your current frontrunners? In my late night rambles on YouTube, I've come across some scary new (to me) clarinetists--Cristo Barrios, Julian Bliss (with videos from when he was 4!), and perhaps the scariest, Martin Frost. Your nominees?

Sabine Meyer, Michel Portal, Gervase de Peyer.

Goodman was a great swing player, not sure why he'd be anyone's preference performing classical music.

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:59 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
NancyElla wrote:So I'm guessing that Benny Goodman isn't the favorite clarinetist of anyone here. . . Who are your current frontrunners? In my late night rambles on YouTube, I've come across some scary new (to me) clarinetists--Cristo Barrios, Julian Bliss (with videos from when he was 4!), and perhaps the scariest, Martin Frost. Your nominees?
What is scary about Martin Frost, he's one of the finest Clarinetist's around, I also like David Shifrin and Thea King, and, of course Karl Leister who sadly passed away last year, he made some incredible recordings, his Brahm's Sonatas etc with the Amadeus Quartet are simply stunning...

Hi Chalkperson,
"Scary" because they seem not quite human--maybe super-human! Especially Martin Frost. He can play like that and DANCE at the same time?

C'mon, that's just not normal. I've been a big fan of Shifrin and Leister too.

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:06 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Karl Leister who sadly passed away last year

Really? His wiki page indicates he is still alive.

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:58 pm

nut-job wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Karl Leister who sadly passed away last year
Really? His wiki page indicates he is still alive.

Maybe he was the one keeping it up!

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:36 pm

nut-job wrote:
NancyElla wrote:So I'm guessing that Benny Goodman isn't the favorite clarinetist of anyone here. . . Who are your current frontrunners? In my late night rambles on YouTube, I've come across some scary new (to me) clarinetists--Cristo Barrios, Julian Bliss (with videos from when he was 4!), and perhaps the scariest, Martin Frost. Your nominees?
Sabine Meyer, Michel Portal, Gervase de Peyer.

Goodman was a great swing player, not sure why he'd be anyone's preference performing classical music.

Yes, Sabine Meyer is amazing, and I really like Gervase de Peyer for his musicality and his completely relaxed and natural performance style--I sure would like to feel the way he looks like he feels when I play! He looks like he's having a great time, and I think he is. The name Michel Portal is new to me--wonderful, a new treasure to uncover on late night YouTube channel surfing! Now if we just knew for sure if Karl Leister is living or dead. . . .

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:07 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
nut-job wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Karl Leister who sadly passed away last year
Really? His wiki page indicates he is still alive.
Maybe he was the one keeping it up!

I misread the wiki entry on Google...

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:09 pm

NancyElla wrote:Now if we just knew for sure if Karl Leister is living or dead. . . .

Still living, as for Scary, just checkin the usage, I like Scary too...

diegobueno · Post by **diegobueno** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:47 pm

The standards for clarinet playing are so incredibly high these days. As good as Benny Goodman sounds on Contrasts, you listen to Ricardo Morales playing the same music and it's like "holy smokes, I can't believe what's coming out of that clarinet!". When the Chicago Symphony held auditions for principal clarinet, they extended a personal invitation to Morales to audition. Basically, they weren't interested in anyone else for the position, and when Morales turned them down, they declared the audition a stalemate and declined to hire anyone for the position.

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:21 pm

karlhenning wrote:
NancyElla wrote:Actually, I've been warned off from Goodman's classical recordings so vociferously that I've never heard them.
Welcome, Nancy!

It's an age since I heard it, but I have heard Goodman's recording of the Stravinsky Ebony Concerto, and the Bartók Contrasts. I probably still have the cassette around; but I haven't troubled to 'upgrade' that to a CD.

Cheers,
~Karl

If memory serves me correctly there's a copy of it in the wonderful 22 CD Stravinsky box set.

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:25 pm

NancyElla wrote:What fun! A clarinet thread starting with a carrot-net! The vegetable gets a pretty good sound--why are we wasting so much money on grenadilla? Buffet Crampon should look into this. After all, carrots are more easily renewable than mpingo trees! Perhaps Goodman would have done better on a carrot-net?

Actually, I've been warned off from Goodman's classical recordings so vociferously that I've never heard them. I restrict myself to listening to his jazz recordings, where it's hard to fault him. Listening now to "Willow Weep for Me" on the Yale University Music Library Goodman collection, volume 8. Does anyone know what kind(s) of clarinet Goodman played during his career?

Hello Nancy and welcome to CMG. I understand that Goodman played the Albert-system Clarinet.

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:26 pm

diegobueno wrote: As good as Benny Goodman sounds on Contrasts, you listen to Ricardo Morales playing the same music and it's like "holy smokes, I can't believe what's coming out of that clarinet!".

Yeah, I guess Morales has to be on the list of contemporary greats. I've only heard him in recordings (and broadcasts of the Met when he played there)--maybe someday I'll be able to hear him live. If he has recorded Contrasts, that's probably a version I should get.

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:30 pm

Seán wrote: Hello Nancy and welcome to CMG. I understand that Goodman played the Albert-system Clarinet.

Albert system hadn't even occurred to me--I was thinking Selmer vs. Buffet!

So I can dream that if only I played an Albert system instrument, I could play those jazz licks too!

nut-job · Post by **nut-job** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:36 pm

Anyone care to describe the difference between the different "systems?"

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:21 am

diegobueno wrote: when Morales turned them down, they declared the audition a stalemate and declined to hire anyone for the position.

They should give the job to John Bruce Yeh,the current CSO associate Eb player. he's amazing....

diegobueno · Post by **diegobueno** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:01 am

Heck148 wrote:
diegobueno wrote: when Morales turned them down, they declared the audition a stalemate and declined to hire anyone for the position.
They should give the job to John Bruce Yeh,the current CSO associate Eb player. he's amazing....

That would be quite logical, but unlikely. The orchestras would rather bring in "new blood" than promote one of their own. What ought to happen is that the New York Phil. and Chicago Symphony trade clarinetists, kind of like baseball teams. Yeh would go and play principal clarinet there, and Mark Nuccio from the New York Phil. would play first for Chicago.

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:40 pm

Any fans of Klezmer music out there? Here's one of the many colors of the clarinet palette.

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:13 am

NancyElla wrote:Any fans of Klezmer music out there? Here's one of the many colors of the clarinet palette.

I am not familiar with Klezmer music, it sounds Jewish of Eastern European origin perhaps? I love the clarinet playing on that clip.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:50 pm

NancyElla wrote:Any fans of Klezmer music out there? Here's one of the many colors of the clarinet palette.

Sure, I love this music, it takes a little getting used to, but, once savored it is a wonderful kind of music to listen to once in a while...

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:06 pm

[/quote]
I am not familiar with Klezmer music, it sounds Jewish of Eastern European origin perhaps? I love the clarinet playing on that clip.[/quote]

Yes, Klezmer music is a centuries-old traditional Jewish musical form. Klezmer music was (and is) used in secular celebrations... wedding parties, bar mitzvah parties, and so on. Typical instruments are violin, clarinet, mandolin, guitar, trumpet, and sometimes percussion. One of the most accomplished contemporary Klezmer clarinetists, Andy Statman, also plays mandolin. I especially liked the bass clarinet playing in this clip. Someone once gave me a bootleg copy of a Klezmer bass clarinetist, and it was fabulous. I wish I still had the tape or could remember the name of the artist (if I ever knew it).

Wallingford · Post by **Wallingford** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:48 am

I've just gotten done rehearing ANTHONY GIGLIOTTI's recording of the Mozart Concerto (w/Ormandy 's Phillies). I've always admired Gilgliotti--and he had to have been damn good to be Philadelphia's head clarinetist--but the man slurs lots of passages that were meant to be individually articulated, note by note. He doesn't do much with the cadenzas, and he does the last movement's famous "gawky" passage with all those C's (meant, really, for the basset horn) in the low register (yep, slurring it again).

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:13 pm

Wallingford wrote:I've just gotten done rehearing ANTHONY GIGLIOTTI's recording of the Mozart Concerto (w/Ormandy 's Phillies). I've always admired Gilgliotti--and he had to have been damn good to be Philadelphia's head clarinetist--but the man slurs lots of passages that were meant to be individually articulated, note by note. He doesn't do much with the cadenzas, and he does the last movement's famous "gawky" passage with all those C'(meant, really, for the basset horn) in the low register (yep, slurring it again).

I'm not sure that we can say how passages of Mozart's clarinet concerto were "meant" to be articulated. For one thing, the manuscript has not survived (or not been found), and for another, Mozart may very well have assumed that the performer would make many of those decisions. In his interesting little book on Mozart's clarinet concerto, Colin Lawson writes: "Inevitably, there was much detail which Mozart did not trouble to write into his scores; he simply expected that certain conventions would be observed, especially in relation to articulation and phrasing. Backofen's clarinet tutor states quite simply that a composer cannot indicate how he would like each note played, but must place his trust in the performer's sensibility." I have heard performances with quite different approaches to articulation, and I don't know to what extent they were based on scholarship and to what extent they reflected the personal preferences of the performer. Your Gigliotti recording almost certainly predates the recent trend to perform the concerto on an extended range basset clarinet, so Gigliotti was forced into some sort of compromise to work around the notes missing from his instrument. With regard to candenzas, Lawson mentions some written by Carl Baermann, Ferruccio Busoni, Stanislav Krticka, Jacques Ibert, and Karlheinz Stockhausen, and is of the opinion that many of them "have tended to reflect the musical taste of their own time rather than that of Mozart."

Question for the clarinet experts and fans--do you have a favorite recording of the Mozart clarinet concerto? If so, what is it and why is it your favorite?

gfweis · Post by **gfweis** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:29 am

NancyElla wrote:Question for the clarinet experts and fans--do you have a favorite recording of the Mozart clarinet concerto? If so, what is it and why is it your favorite?

Speaking as a fan only, I think the finest recording I have heard is the Marcellus/Szell. What a master Marcellus seems to me to be! Lovely, rich tone production; and he sings it so beautifully. And Szell provides buoyant and fluid support. Of the ones played on the basset clarinet, I have especially liked Thea King's on Hyperion. Many years ago I heard a wonderful performance of the concerto in the Shed at Tanglewood. I'm embarrassed to say I cannot recall the soloist's name. He was young, and relatively short of stature...and seemingly effortlessly virtuosic. Perhaps someone will be able to say who that was.

some guy · Post by **some guy** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:56 pm

Here are two names to conjure with, Tim Hodgkinson and Jörg Widmann.

Both of them fine composers, too.

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:53 pm

some guy wrote:Here are two names to conjure with, Tim Hodgkinson and Jörg Widmann.

Both of them fine composers, too.

I'm beginning to conjure, now. . . what do I see. . .?

And Dorothy said, "Toto, I don't thnk we're in Kansas anymore!"

NancyElla · Post by **NancyElla** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:12 pm

And continuing to conjure, perhaps this is the Wizard. . .

It must be the Wizard--quite a performance, and quite a piece.

david johnson · Post by **david johnson** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:51 am

Since the Albert system has been mentioned, here is a bit of info for those of us who don't know much about it -
http://usuarios.lycos.es/albertsystem/

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