Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

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THEHORN
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Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by THEHORN » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:44 pm

I've just heard the recent Harmonia Mundi CD of the Bruckner 4th by Philippe Herreweghe and the Orchestre de Champs Elysees , which I borrowed through my library's interloan system .
It's pretty good , but do we really need HIP Bruckner ?
I can barely tell any difference between this recording and today's orchestras, apart from les vibrato in the Gut ! strings , which make the softer passages sound a bit thin .
The brass sound absolutely indistinguishable from modern orchestras ; they're superb on this recording; powerful, sonorous yet never coarse or blaring .
Herreweghe's interpretation is perfectly sound and unobjectionable .
You can't go wrong with this recording , but it's in no way superior to those by such great Brucknerians as Karajan , Jochum, Bohm , Solti , Barenboim , Chailly and others .
Yet in an interview not too long ago , Herreweghe made this astoundingly ludicrous statement, and I hope I'm quoting accurately."The only music appropriate for the modern orchestra is by Penderecki and Stockhausen".
How far will HIP go ?




:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

ravel30
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by ravel30 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:12 pm

Interesting comment THEHORN. But I have a question (to you and everybody else).

Can somebody explain to me what HIP stand for ? I keep reading this all over CMG but I still don't understand what it means.

Matt.

Marc
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by Marc » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:21 pm

ravel30 wrote: Can somebody explain to me what HIP stand for? I keep reading this all over CMG but I still don't understand what it means.
Historically informed performance.
Used to be (in the earlier days): 'authentic performance'.
Then, 'suddenly', Nikolaus Harnoncourt (adored by many HIP purists) said in interviews authenticity does not exist!
Oops!

So, now it's HIP.

Sometimes though: it's square to be HIP!

stenka razin
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by stenka razin » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:33 pm

It is always good to have an open mind and an open ear. HIP is an alternative in the case of Bruckner and the Herreweghe is probably a fine performance, but, the competition is fierce and I am certain most of my fellow CMGers have so many great and not so great Bruckner 4ths in their collections, so I fail to see why anyone but a musicologist would actually purchase HIP Bruckner. I cannot see how for example, Solti's Chicago brass section can be seriously challenged by maestro Herreweghe in his recording. If I am wrong, so be it. :wink: 8)
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Tiger
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by Tiger » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:11 pm

THEHORN wrote:I've just heard the recent Harmonia Mundi CD of the Bruckner 4th by Philippe Herreweghe and the Orchestre de Champs Elysees , which I borrowed through my library's interloan system .
It's pretty good , but do we really need HIP Bruckner ?
I have a different take on this. Artists/performers are free to musically express themselves in any way they want. Consumers of music are free to acquire and listen to whatever types of performances they want. It's an excellent process that yields the widest variety of expression the market will bear.

By the way, there are still plenty of folks who feel that HIP-Bach is not needed.

Modernistfan
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by Modernistfan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:47 pm

If it was customary to use virtually no vibrato for late-romantic works of the Mahler-Bruckner ilk when those works were first played, wouldn't recordings made by conductors such as Bruno Walter, who began conducting professionally before Bruckner's death and lived and remained active long enough to make stereo recordings of Bruckner and Mahler in the late 1950's and early 1960's for Columbia (now Sony), reflect that tendency? The ones I have heard from Walter and the just slightly younger Otto Klemperer and Wilhelm Furtwängler most unequivocally do not.

I fear that this is just another instance of a conductor of HIP substituting his judgment for a century or more of performance tradition. I stay clear of those recordings. If I want to hear Bruckner, I have Barenboim, Chailly, and Tintner, and I may buy either the Solti or one of the Haitink cycles.

ravel30
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by ravel30 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:10 pm

Thank you all for the precision on the meaning of HIP. It sounds quite interesting.
Tiger wrote:

It's an excellent process that yields the widest variety of expression the market will bear.
Yes, the market is the king as always. :lol: Way to analyse everything Tiger. The market is everywhere :lol:

ravel30
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by ravel30 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:10 pm

Thank you all for the precision on the meaning of HIP. It sounds quite interesting.
Tiger wrote:

It's an excellent process that yields the widest variety of expression the market will bear.
Yes, the market is the king as always. :lol: Way to analyse everything Tiger. The market is everywhere :lol:

Heck148
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by Heck148 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:51 pm

THEHORN wrote: Herreweghe made this astoundingly ludicrous statement, and I hope I'm quoting accurately."The only music appropriate for the modern orchestra is by Penderecki and Stockhausen".
what pretentious crap. it is this sort of smug, self-righteous nonsense that generates so much contempt for HIP stuff amongst "real" musicians. :P :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

barney
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by barney » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:40 am

Has he trodden in some lately?

Jack Kelso
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:20 am

I have yet to hear finer renditions of Bruckner's Fourth and Ninth than Bruno Walter. One might wish to include conductor Heinz Rögner with the brilliant Brucknerians.

Tschüß,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

maestrob
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by maestrob » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:18 am

Jack Kelso wrote:I have yet to hear finer renditions of Bruckner's Fourth and Ninth than Bruno Walter. One might wish to include conductor Heinz Rögner with the brilliant Brucknerians.

Tschüß,
Jack
Jack, I agree with you that Bruno Walter's Bruckner IV, VII & IX are very fine. However, I've been recently very impressed by a VII with Paavo Jarvi and a IX led by Fabio Luisi that you might want to investigate. The orchestral detail and sonority in both recordings are very, very impressive.

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Jack Kelso
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Re: Herreweghe's HIP Bruckner 4

Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:56 am

maestrob wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:I have yet to hear finer renditions of Bruckner's Fourth and Ninth than Bruno Walter. One might wish to include conductor Heinz Rögner with the brilliant Brucknerians.

Tschüß,
Jack
Jack, I agree with you that Bruno Walter's Bruckner IV, VII & IX are very fine. However, I've been recently very impressed by a VII with Paavo Jarvi and a IX led by Fabio Luisi that you might want to investigate. The orchestral detail and sonority in both recordings are very, very impressive.

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I recently bought the great Hans Rosbaud/SWR-Sinfonieorchester recording of the Seventh (and it's stereo!) and Bolton's also of the Seventh. Both are superb. But I'll take your advice on Paavo Jarvi, too.

Tschüß,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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