Singers who got there without the pipes ...

[Heck148]

Lanza, however, was lazy when it came to learning a score: he apparently could read (contrary to what others said), but he almost always preferred to learn it off a record.

Goldovsky said that he couldn't read music at all when he first was discovered - worse - he had no ear training, and was completely unable to match pitches or lines when BG played them on piano....
he learned his brief arias, segments, songs, by wrote, repetition.

[MarkC]

Mario Lanza??

You don't think he was real good?
I'm biased because my parents liked him a lot, and I grew up hearing some of his 78's. But as near as I can tell, he was indeed real good.

He had that extra to really reach people. He was really big .. a household name in the 1950s. I would guess the average person back then would know who Mario Lanza was, but likely not know Jussi Bjoerling. Just a guess.

I would bet my bippy on your guess.
Because 'even I' never heard of this Bjoerling fellow at that time, nor until many years later.

[MarkC]

yes, he was essentially a fake. a bozo with a gorgeous voice, who hadn't a clue how to use it.....

Depends on our concept of what "real" means.

[Heck148]

yes, he was essentially a fake. a bozo with a gorgeous voice, who hadn't a clue how to use it.....

Depends on our concept of what "real" means.

well a real opera star should at least be able to perform an opera role on-stage. Mario Lanza was not able to do so.

[MarkC]

well a real opera star should at least be able to perform an opera role on-stage. Mario Lanza was not able to do so.

Who says we're judging just on the basis of "opera star"?

Here's the question in the OP:
"Were or are there other performers in the classical world who got there on the basis of something other than their ability?"

[Chalkperson]

well a real opera star should at least be able to perform an opera role on-stage. Mario Lanza was not able to do so.

Who says we're judging just on the basis of "opera star"?

Here's the question in the OP:
"Were or are there other performers in the classical world who got there on the basis of something other than their ability?"

I think that is too literal a view, one of the reasons that Lanza is so lame is because he's a Hollywood Star, not an Opera Star, I think the OP assumes that we are talking about Opera Singers, not Hollywood Hacks...

[Heck148]

Who says we're judging just on the basis of "opera star"?

well, I don't think Mario Lanza would qualify as a great singer, vocalist, or even musician.

he had a naturally beautiful voice, but he had no talent to use it...
it would be like a potential quarterback who could throw a football 300 yards in the air, but had no ability to call a play.
or a baseball pitcher who could throw a 105 MPH fastball all night, but never get it in the strike zone...

Mr Lanza had pipes, but no brain to go with it.

[MarkC]

Maybe brains are overrated.

I prefer people to have brains, but I don't require it.

I've heard Rubinstein described as "brainless," and while I wouldn't say that, I know what they mean.
I've heard Horowitz described in even more unflattering intellectual terms.

In fact, since we're talking about singers, aren't they reputed/stereotyped as often being low on the musical IQ scale?

Whatever.....most of the public doesn't care. And despite my thousands of years of schooling and being immersed in intellectual circles, I think the public has it mostly right when it comes to singing.

[Heck148]

Maybe brains are overrated.

whatever, Lanza had no talent....great voice, no ability to use it.

I've heard Rubinstein described as "brainless," ....I've heard Horowitz described in even more unflattering intellectual terms.

on the scale of great musicianship -Rubinstein and Horowitz are up around 9-9.5 on a scale of 1 to 10. I'm not sure Lanza registers on the scale.

[MarkC]

.....on the scale of great musicianship -Rubinstein and Horowitz are up around 9-9.5 on a scale of 1 to 10. I'm not sure Lanza registers on the scale.

Aha......now it's been transformed into "musicianship"!

It intrigues me how many debates seem to come down to semantics.......or something like that.

In terms of my sense of musicianship, Lanza was extremely, extremely high. Not that I necessarily agree with your estimate of his intelligence (I just don't know), but......my sense of "musicianship" doesn't have a lot of overlap with "brains." Intelligence can help -- or (IMO) hinder. But it's usually quite beside the point.

[Heck148]

In terms of my sense of musicianship, Lanza was extremely, extremely high.

baloney. he learned everything by wrote, by repetition - pigeons have been taught to play ping-pong....does that mean they have great intelligence??

my sense of "musicianship" doesn't have a lot of overlap with "brains." Intelligence can help -- or (IMO) hinder. But it's usually quite beside the point.

no, not at all. musicianship is greatly influenced by intelligence - hugely...
let's say musicianship = natural talent + hard work + intelligent application of that talent...

Lanza had natural "talent" - a gorgeous voice he happened to be born with - he did not have the intelligence or dedication to really develop it.

[MarkC]

In terms of my sense of musicianship, Lanza was extremely, extremely high.

baloney. he learned everything by wrote, by repetition - pigeons have been taught to play ping-pong....does that mean they have great intelligence??

This just shows again that we have different ideas of what musicianship means. Which is fine.

And anyway, if we want to get really basic......remember, the OP wasn't even about musicianship, it was about the basic voice. (Pipes, and ability.)

BTW.....rote.

[Heck148]

This just shows again that we have different ideas of what musicianship means.

since I do it for a living, I'll trust my own. I'll also trust Goldovsky's, which coincides closely with my own. He was a great musician, a true genius..he knew a phony when he heard one.

it was about the basic voice. (Pipes, and ability.)

Lanza = great pipes, great natural equipment, no ability to apply it.

[slofstra]

I was always indifferent about him, a Hollywood Tenor, as fake as Hollywood itself...

yes, he was essentially a fake. a bozo with a gorgeous voice, who hadn't a clue how to use it...he achieved some fame for awhile, but he totally faded from the professional world of singing and opera.

Well, actually, he died. In 1959 at the age of 38.

[MarkC]

This just shows again that we have different ideas of what musicianship means.

since I do it for a living, I'll trust my own.

That's awfully rigid.

If you think "musicianship" necessarily involves high intelligence, you are insisting on a narrow definition. But of course feel free to trust it all you want.

IMO it's important to realize that there are differing concepts of a concept.

[Heck148]

That's awfully rigid.

no, not really.

If you think "musicianship" necessarily involves high intelligence,

musicianship requires MUSICAL intelligence,...Lanza did not have it.

if Lanza was a great musician because he made some movies, and recorded a few arias and songs, then Chuck Norris is a great actor because he's made some movies and starred in a TV series...

[Chosen Barley]

It's not quite clear to me what is meant by "got there without the pipes". Does this include singers like Mado Robin who was more or less a one-trick pony (or considered such, right or wrong) but who could still make her way througn entire operas? I wouldn't call her pipe-less but she was not a great singer, either.

[Istvan]

I don't think one should dismiss Mario Lanza: his vocal production was remarkably even; he had a full, rich voice and excellent diction. If it is true that he couldn't read music then he was in the excellent company of Pavarotti, who right to the end of his career marked his scores with coloured arrows - up or down. A tenor I couldn't stand was Jon Vickers. He turned every character into a raving nut and stretched out the music of "Peter Grimes" like a piece of chewing gum. No wonder Britten walked out twice during performances by Vickers.

[lennygoran]

>A tenor I couldn't stand was Jon Vickers.<

I'm not in any way criticizing Lanza--I liked what I heard--however for me Vickers is one of the greats--I'm just sorry I didn't hear him live more often. I have a laser disc of his Grimes--just outstanding--one of the most riveting opera productions I've ever seen. Regards, Len

[Chalkperson]

I never found anything to enjoy in either Mario Lanza or Jon Vickers, I avoid both of them like the plague...

[MarkC]

I pronounce anyone who doesn't like this a Philistine..... {smiley suppressed}



But of course then again I also liked the tenors in the Marx Brothers movies. [smiley suppressed reluctantly]

[Chalkperson]

I pronounce anyone who doesn't like this a Philistine..... {smiley suppressed}

Your favourite Philistine has this to say about that...

Yuk...{expletives suppressed}...

When it comes to suffering, i'll take Horowitz over Lanza anyday...

[Lance]

IMHO, Mario Lanza had the PIPES, which is the essence of this post. He may not have had much else but was taught, as is any singer, to use his voice expressively and carefully, though he took a lot of chances on stage. He could not read music, and Pavarotti had the same problem, but probably not as advanced (in inability) as Lanza. Listen to much of what Lanza has committed to discs, either popular songs, opera, show tunes, religious and art songs, Christmas songs, etc., et al. His records are still selling and he still has an international audience that continues to expand. RCA issued a five-CD “original jacket collection” [59218] in November 2009 that gives a cross section of the tenor's work on records.


RCA 59218, 5 CDs

[HoustonDavid]

Now if this little exchange about Vickers and Lanza had been in The Pub, there would have been
many "expletives deleted", vicious accusations, personal slights and furious departures instead of
a few deletions of smiley faces and differences of opinion in carefully chosen words. Maybe we should
move our politics to the Chatterbox and see what happens......

[Heck148]

IMHO, Mario Lanza had the PIPES, which is the essence of this post. He may not have had much else

right you are.

He could not read music, and Pavarotti had the same problem, but probably not as advanced (in inability) as Lanza.

Pavarotti learned many different operatic roles, and was able to perform them convincingly on stage. Lanza could not.

Listen to much of what Lanza has committed to discs, either popular songs, opera, show tunes, religious and art songs, Christmas songs, etc., et al.

that's all he could do - short set pieces that he could learn by rote. his skils as a musician were minimal, nearly non-existent. he was blessed with a fine voice, and little ability to use it.

[MarkC]

.....but probably not as advanced (in inability) as Lanza.....

(Sorry Chalkie, sorry......I just had to give Lance those lol's for that)

[Chosen Barley]

I don't know why you'd be bothered by Lanza's inability to read music + his learning songs by rote. Isn't it the final result that matters? I don't give a hoot if my turntable is powered by a pricey DC motor with tacho feedback speed control or by a squirrel on a treadmill as long as it goes 33-1/3 rpm.

[Chalkperson]

.....but probably not as advanced (in inability) as Lanza.....

(Sorry Chalkie, sorry......I just had to give Lance those lol's for that)

It's OK Mark, Synesthesia only happens when the post is directed at me...

[MarkC]

Lance must have given many of us a new source of self-esteem. I certainly never realized before that our inabilities can make us 'advanced'!!

[Lance]

Well, MarkC, thank you for the LOLs! After I re-read my post quickly, I knew it would garner a comment from somebody. It's the brain thinking, hence my reason for parenthesizing (new word!) "inability" though I'm sure everybody knew what I meant. That's what happens when the brain is tired and you are trying to convey your thoughts. At least I brought a laff or two to everybody. Perhaps I was trying to be kind to Mr Lanza with that choice of verbiage. Advanced inability = LESS capable than "average" of those who perform or do something. [Maybe I better stop while I am still ahead!]

.....but probably not as advanced (in inability) as Lanza.....

(Sorry Chalkie, sorry......I just had to give Lance those lol's for that)

[Heck148]

I don't know why you'd be bothered by Lanza's inability to read music + his learning songs by rote.

Learning by rote is not, by itself such a negative thing, tho it certainly indicates a lack of musical training...however, combine the inability to read music with the incapability to learn any signifcant operatic role and you have someone who is really musically deficient in his chosen performance endeavor.
he was blessed with a rich, beautiful voice...whoopee.....he was clueless about how to apply it. he lacked the musical artistry, the intelligence.

perhaps he would fit better into a thread entitled:

<<Singers who didn't get, there with the pipes ...>>

[stefanher]

What an amazing thread this is. So there is someone in the world who dislikes Jon Vickers singing? As for Mario Lanza- something I'm increasingly finding when listening to the tenors of that generation is wondering what would be said about "second raters" like Prandelli. Poggi. Picchi & their ilk if they were active today....

Didn't Lanza appear on stage at the very beginning f his career before Hollywood beckoned? I seem to vaguely remember a story of him appearing in Pag.

[MarkC]

....Didn't Lanza appear on stage at the very beginning f his career before Hollywood beckoned? I seem to vaguely remember a story of him appearing in Pag.

I tried looking this up a bit and didn't find anything, but I did come across a book, "Mario Lanza: an American Tragedy," whose title will give a laugh to the anti-Lanzites. But it doesn't mean what they would think.

Here are a couple of capsule reviews from the Amazon page:

From Publishers Weekly:
.....Cesari makes the convincing argument that Philadelphia-born Lanza, while one of America's greatest operatic singers, could also have been one of the world's great opera singers, carrying the torch passed on by Enrico Caruso. For Cesari, an Italian-born singer now living in Australia, this work is obviously a labor of love, and his passion comes through in his detailed recounting of Lanza's life. While his admiration for the singer occasionally veers towards the hagiographic, Cesari is careful to analyze Lanza's performances fairly, quoting reporters and reviewers at the time. It was Lanza's meteoric rise in popularity through film, Cesari notes, that drew fire from his most severe critics, who believed that Lanza's voice was too weak for the stage. But as many of the reviews and comments from well-known opera personalities show, this was hardly the case.....

From Booklist
Touted as the successor to Enrico Caruso, Mario Lanza (1921-59) had a beautiful lirico spinto tenor of wide vocal range and could have become the primo donno of the opera world. But he loved the money he made from movies, recordings, and concerts and, plagued by depression, lacked self-confidence. When depressed, he turned to alcohol and food; later, whenever the film studios wanted him trim, he crash-dieted. That damaged his heart and liver, contributing to his early death. Cesari, who loves Lanza and regrets he never realized his potential, traces the singer's various projects, assessing successes and failures. He includes material gleaned from the news and 30 years' worth of interviews with Lanza's family and friends. Along with interpretive personal commentary, Cesari poignantly tells the tragic story of a beautiful voice and the sick personality behind it.....

[lennygoran]

>I tried looking this up a bit and didn't find anything,<

Wiki seems to cover the ground pretty well:

"Opera career

His operatic debut, as Fenton in Otto Nicolai's The Merry Wives of Windsor (in English), came at the Berkshire Music Festival in Tanglewood on August 7, 1942, after a period of study with conductors Boris Goldovsky and Leonard Bernstein. It was here that Cocozza adopted the stage name Mario Lanza, which was the masculine version of his mother’s maiden name, Maria Lanza. His performances at Tanglewood won him critical acclaim, with Noel Straus of The New York Times hailing the 21-year-old tenor as having "few equals among tenors of the day in terms of quality, warmth, and power." Herbert Graf subsequently wrote in the Opera News of October 5, 1942 that, "A real find of the season was Mario Lanza [...] He would have no difficulty one day being asked to join the Metropolitan Opera." Lanza performed the role of Fenton twice at Tanglewood, in addition to appearing there in a one-off presentation of Act III of Puccini's La bohème with the noted Mexican soprano Irma González, baritone James Pease, and mezzo-soprano Laura Castellano. Music critic Jay C. Rosenfeld wrote in The New York Times of August 9, 1942 that, "Miss González as Mimì and Mario Lanza as Rodolfo were conspicuous by the beauty of their voices and the vividness of their characterizations." In an interview shortly before her death in 2008, Ms. González recalled that Lanza was "very correct, likeable, [and] with a powerful and beautiful voice."
Lanza as Giuseppe Verdi's Otello

His budding operatic career was interrupted by World War II, when he was assigned to Special Services in the U.S. Army Air Corps. He appeared in the wartime shows On the Beam and Winged Victory. He also appeared in the film version of the latter (albeit as an unrecognizable member of the chorus).

Lanza resumed his singing career with a concert in Atlantic City with the NBC Symphony Orchestra in September 1945 under the baton of Peter Herman Adler, who subsequently became a mentor to him. The following month, Lanza replaced tenor Jan Peerce on the live CBS radio program Great Moments in Music, on which he made six appearances over a period of four months, singing extracts from various operas and other works. He then studied with noted teacher Enrico Rosati for fifteen months, acquiring a solid vocal technique that enabled him, in his own words, "to sing for hours without becoming tired." His friend and colleague bass-baritone George London later recalled that, prior to working with Rosati, Lanza's voice "was unschooled, but of incredible beauty, with ringing, fearless high notes. [...] Rosati taught him to sing more lyrically, with less pressure, to good advantage."

His studies with Rosati completed, Lanza embarked on an 86-concert tour of the United States, Canada and Mexico between July 1947 and May 1948 with George London and soprano Frances Yeend. Reviewing his second appearance at Chicago's Grant Park in July 1947 in the Chicago Sunday Tribune, the respected music critic Claudia Cassidy praised Lanza's "superbly natural tenor" and observed that "though a multitude of fine points evade him, he possesses the things almost impossible to learn. He knows the accent that makes a lyric line reach its audience, and he knows why opera is music drama."

In April 1948, Lanza sang two performances as Pinkerton in Puccini's Madama Butterfly for the New Orleans Opera Association. The conductor was Walter Herbert, the stage director was Armando Agnini. Writing in the St. Louis News, critic Laurence Odel observed that, "Mario Lanza performed his duties as Lieut. Pinkerton with considerable verve and dash. Rarely have we seen a more superbly romantic leading tenor. His exceptionally beautiful voice helps immeasurably." Following the success of these performances, Lanza was invited to return to New Orleans in 1949 as Alfredo in Verdi's La traviata. However, as biographer Armando Cesari observes, by 1949 Lanza "was already deeply engulfed in the Hollywood machinery and consequently never learned the role [of Alfredo]." Regards, Len

[Heck148]

"Opera career

His operatic debut, as Fenton in Otto Nicolai's The Merry Wives of Windsor (in English), came at the Berkshire Music Festival in Tanglewood on August 7, 1942, after a period of study with conductors Boris Goldovsky and Leonard Bernstein.

with the role appropriately condensed, reduced enough for Lanza to manage it [Goldovsky]

Lanza performed the role of Fenton twice at Tanglewood, in addition to appearing there in a one-off presentation of Act III of Puccini's La bohème

again - one act only...he couldn't handle more.

Lanza resumed his singing career....singing extracts from various operas and other works.

yup, more bits and pieces....

His friend and colleague bass-baritone George London later recalled that, prior to working with Rosati, Lanza's voice "was unschooled, but of incredible beauty,..."

yup great natural pipes, little ability to apply that gift.

the respected music critic [ ] Claudia Cassidy praised Lanza's "superbly natural tenor" and observed that "though a multitude of fine points evade him, he possesses the things almost impossible to learn."

yes, impossible for Lanza...

However, as biographer Armando Cesari observes, by 1949 Lanza "was already deeply engulfed in the Hollywood machinery and consequently never learned the role [of Alfredo]."

right. learning operatic roles seemed beyond him. bits. pieces, short works were more within his grasp.

[lennygoran]

>right. learning operatic roles seemed beyond him<

My wife and I have enjoyed a very interesting PBS documentary on him with some fascinatring footage:

MARIO LANZA: SINGING TO THE GODS

This special chronicles the remarkable life and times of one of the 20th century’s most beloved singing stars, Mario Lanza. The program contains a selection of rare photographs, interviews and footage from movies that made him famous, especially The Great Caruso. Torn between the desire to establish himself as a serious opera singer and the temptations of Hollywood, Lanza was plagued by self-doubt and resorted to alcohol and over-eating. This program celebrates his incomparable talents as well as the torments that led to his untimely death at age 38.

We are down in the Philly area quite alot on garden related activities--I always say I'm gonna go to the museum they have for him down there but just never make it over there--maybe some day. Regards, Len

[MarkC]

>I tried looking this up a bit and didn't find anything,<

Wiki seems to cover the ground pretty well.....

Oh........I should have been clearer what I meant by "this" (my syntax was awful).

I just meant about Pagliacci.

[lennygoran]

>I just meant about Pagliacci.<

Ah, now I get it. Could you imagine Lanza attempting a double bill of Pag and Cav! Regards, Len

[MarkC]

......Could you imagine Lanza attempting a double bill of Pag and Cav! Regards, Len

Let me digress.
One of my greatest opera afternoons was a double bill of Gianni Schicchi and Pagliacci
Schicchi by itself is thin, but put it as a "prelude" to Pag, and then you've really got something.

[lennygoran]

>Schicchi by itself is thin<

Thin, surely you jest--it's a great comedy--okay it can't top Falstaff...still... Regards, Len

[MarkC]

>Schicchi by itself is thin<

Thin, surely you jest--it's a great comedy--okay it can't top Falstaff...still... Regards, Len

No jest.

I mean, I love it, and it's more than enough for me.
But most people insist on more than just an hour of lightness.
For some reason.

[lennygoran]

>But most people insist on more than just an hour of lightness.<

Well I'd definitely want my moneys worth--fortunately the only way I've ever seen it and it's been about 4 times now it's always been a part of Puccini's Il Trittico including Il tabarro, Suor Angelica, and Gianni Schicchi . The new production the Met came up with for Trittico was absolutely spectacular. Stephanie Blythe appeared in each one act opera and was just superb in each! Regards, Len