Beethoven piano concerti recommendation

stefanher · Post by **stefanher** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 2:55 pm

I know these works very well having listened to them on record & in concert for over 30 years. Taking stock of my recordings I have noticed that I only have one set from the digital period (Brendel/Rattle) which I don't rate as highly as his set with Levine. So have their been any recordings in the last 30 years that can seriously challenge my sets with Solomon, Kempff, Serkin & Gilels u.a. ? I suppose I should get an original instruments set but feel much about that movement as many of the critics of "Record Guide".

Fergus · Post by **Fergus** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:10 pm

These are two sets that I would strongly recommend if you do not have them already....

Burbage · Post by **Burbage** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:52 pm

stefanher wrote:I suppose I should get an original instruments set but feel much about that movement as many of the critics of "Record Guide".

I have the Tan/Norrington set, which isn't immediately irritating.

The recordings aren't exactly relaxing, but they're not like being hit with a mallet, either. The modern-instrument versions I have seem to defer a little too much to the piano's thundering self-importance, and the Tan set is a nice reminder that there's something collaborative going on. For example, take the magical opening of the third movement of the fourth concerto, where the piano bounces alongside a more sober solo cello for a few bars. In the Tan recording, the cello plays a gentle, yet audible, reprimand. In the others I've compared it with (Brendel/Rattle and Perahia/Haitink), the cello seems forced to be a little sterner. There's not a lot in it, and I have no idea what Beethoven intended, but it does affect the character of that section in way that I don't remember from the concert hall. Equally, I suppose, it might just reflect my degree of open-handedness when it comes to buying tickets.

gperkins151 · Post by **gperkins151** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:33 pm

My favorite is only $10 over at amazon.

arthound · Post by **arthound** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:41 pm

^^^^

You have got me interested in that set George and after listening to the samples I decided to pick it up - only $6.79 plus shipping from Amazon market place.

Part of the appeal for me is that I love the sound of the CzPO - esp. the woodwinds - and don't have them playing in a complete set of the PC's.

Here are two more suggestions. The Schiff can be purchased as part of a good value box set if you can't find them on their own at a good price.
The Uchida has received mixed reviews but I admire her playing and enjoy Sanderling's contribution - Christophe Huss at Classics Today France sometimes lists this as his reference version FWIW.

Prometheus · Post by **Prometheus** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:18 pm

The most recent recordings I have are those of Zinman with the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich. The 3rd disc in the series includes Choral Fantasy, which I find to be the best recorded piece of the 3 disc set.

Donaldopato · Post by **Donaldopato** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:30 pm

Fleisher/Szell or the above set, which at the price of around $6 a disc is a bargain.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:36 pm

Perahia - Haitink
Kuerti - Davis
Fleischer - Szell
Lupu - Mehta
Lubin - Hogwood
Goode - Fischer

gperkins151 · Post by **gperkins151** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:40 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Perahia - Haitink
Kuerti - Davis
Fleischer - Szell
Lupu - Mehta
Lubin - Hogwood
Goode - Fischer

No Serkin/Kubelik? (on Orfeo)

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:10 pm

gperkins151 wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Perahia - Haitink
Kuerti - Davis
Fleischer - Szell
Lupu - Mehta
Lubin - Hogwood
Goode - Fischer
No Serkin/Kubelik? (on Orfeo)

He said he had Serkin...

gperkins151 · Post by **gperkins151** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:11 pm

Gotcha!

premont · Post by **premont** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:23 am

stefanher wrote: So have their been any recordings in the last 30 years that can seriously challenge my sets with Solomon, Kempff, Serkin & Gilels u.a. ?

The short answer is : no.

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:39 am

Does anyone remember the remarkable Kempff/van Kempen set on DG with the Berlin Philharmonic from the early 1950's?

If you don't know it, you should, before it dissappears forever....

Magnificent performances!

Post by **Lance** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:32 am

Indeed, I know these recordings very well. That mono set is a marvel! I also have all five Beethoven piano concertos with Ferdinand Leitner conducting the Berlin PO, recorded in stereo. I think, with regard to the piano concertos. both of Kempff's Beethoven concerto recordings are exquisite whereas I still maintain a preference for his mono version of Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas. (Still, it's wonderful to have both of these sets, too!)

stenka razin wrote:Does anyone remember the remarkable Kempff/van Kempen set on DG with the Berlin Philharmonic from the early 1950's?

If you don't know it, you should, before it dissappears forever....

Magnificent performances!

Post by **Lance** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:45 am

It is very difficult to decide WHICH versions of the integral recordings one wants for a personal collection. Given the gracious beauty of Beethoven's piano concertos, it seems that music lovers would certainly want more than one edition. I tend to go with more of the historical performances. It seems we have covered this subject before, but it is always inspiring to bring up our thoughts and recommendations once again.

These would be my recommendations for complete sets of all five concertos by the same pianist, in no particular preferred order:

[1] Artur Rubinstein/Symphony of the Air/Krips [RCA, Rubinstein's first and finest recorded version (IMHO) of three he did for RCA]

[2] Artur Schnabel/Orchestras conducted by Dobrowen, Sargent [both on EMI] and Nos. 4/5 on RCA with the Chicago SO under Frederick Stock

[3] Solomon/Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Menges and Cluytens on EMI or Testament

[4] Leon Fleisher/Cleveland Orchestra/George Szell on Sony Classical

[5] Rudolf Serkin/New York PO or Philadelphia Orch./Bernstein or Ormandy on Sony Classical

[6] Alicia de Larrocha/Riccardo Chailly, conductor [British Decca]

[7] Radu Lupu/Israel Philharmonic Orch./Zubin Mehta [British Decca]

And, there could be countless more of complete sets. Much will depend on your preference for the pianist and conductor. Everyone will have their favourites, of course. Some will prefer a few of mine and detest the others. It's all a matter of personal choice - and it's great fun collecting them and listening with great interest.

If the budget permits, you may also want to have Glenn Gould's traversal of all five piano concertos recorded with Golschmann (1), Bernstein (2,3,4), and Stokowski (5).

I have so many integral versions at this point I've lost track, but among them are my favourites, as listed above.

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:54 am

These recordings, with Reiner, were immensely popular in their day and are still highly regarded:

Argerich in I, II & III:

gperkins151 · Post by **gperkins151** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:11 am

If we are straying from the complete set discussion, I feel I must mention a few recommendations:

1. Richter/Munch
2. No standout yet
3. Annie Fischer/Fricsay
4. Arrau/Haitink
5. Pollini/Bohm

rogch · Post by **rogch** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:35 am

The Aimard/Harnoncourt set is absolutely brilliant from start to finnish.

RebLem · Post by **RebLem** » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:53 am

I own many sets including both Kempffs, Perahia/Haitink, Aimard/Harnoncort, Katchen/Gamba, Pollini, Schnabel/Sargent as well as the Schnabel/Stock recording of 4 & 5, Sherman/Neumann, Tan/Norrington, Arrau/Davis, as well as many individual recordings not parts of complete sets. I have only two sets and one individual recording which I consider absolutely essential. The two sets are Fleisher/Szell and Goode/Fischer. the latter of which is a very recent digital set. The one non-set recording I consider essential is the Curzon/Kubelik 4 & 5. If I had to pick a third set to accompany the two I have chosen, it would be the Pollini set with Jochum & Bohm.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:51 am

No one has mentioned the Klemperer/ Barenboim set. It's available as a "tag along" in the Klemperer EMI Beethoven symphony set available at a budget price. I didn't expect much ... for example, the Arrau concerto set tagged onto his very fine Beethoven Sonata set didn't impress me at all. However, the Klemperer/ Barenboim knocked my socks off. I hope it wasn't just the "Werner Effect" *. I believe the secret to a top flight concerto recording, one that achieves that transcendental quality, is the integration of the orchestra and solo instrument. The timing and balance have to be just right, and this recording achieves that. (Curzon consistently does this.)

From Lance's post, I love the Stokowski-Gould collaboration on the Emperor. It's "big". The whole thing is mic'd in an unnatural way that makes it sound really good ... like the piano is 20 feet across and 10 feet high. That approach doesn't usually work, and I suppose, contradicts what I said in the previous paragraph. But I like it, and it's very unique.

* Werner Effect - the best recording is the one I'm listening to right now.

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:36 am

slofstra wrote:No one has mentioned the Klemperer/ Barenboim set. It's available as a "tag along" Klemperer EMI Beethoven symphony set available at a budget price. I didn't expect much ... for example, the Arrau concerto set tagged onto his very fine Beethoven Sonata set didn't impress me at all. However, the Klemperer/ Barenboim knocked my socks off. I hope it wasn't just the "Werner Effect" *. I believe the secret to a top flight concerto recording, one that achieves that transcendental quality, is the integration of the orchestra and solo instrument. The timing and balance have to be just right, and this recording achieves that. (Curzon consistently does this.)

From Lance's post, I love the Stokowski-Gould collaboration on the Emperor. It's "big". The whole thing is mic'd in an unnatural way that makes it sound really good ... like the piano is 20 feet across and 10 feet high. That approach doesn't usually work, and I suppose, contradicts what I said in the previous paragraph. But I like it, and it's very unique.

* Werner Effect - the best recording is the one I'm listening to right now.

slofstra, it is not the 'Werner' effect, my friend. Barenboim is that good, especially with Klemperer conducting. Wonderful performances.

Trilogy · Post by **Trilogy** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:53 pm

maestrob wrote:These recordings, with Reiner, were immensely popular in their day and are still highly regarded:

Argerich in I, II & III:

Argerich can do no wrong!

I'll add Carl Seemann, and Clara Haskil. (Sonatas)

Btw ... Mel, Love the album cover in your sig.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:30 pm

Trilogy wrote: Btw ... Mel, Love the album cover in your sig.

I guess I should "turn her on" just to get a quick look...

Trilogy · Post by **Trilogy** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:37 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Trilogy wrote: Btw ... Mel, Love the album cover in your sig.
I guess I should "turn her on" just to get a quick look...

You should be so lucky

premont · Post by **premont** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:34 am

My recommendations (non HIP).

1) Anda / Galliera (EMI) or Arrau / Galliera (EMI)
2) Solomon / Cluytens (EMI)
3) Backhaus / Böhm (Decca) or Backhaus / Schmidt-Isserstedt (Decca)
4) Gilels / Ludwig (EMI) or Backhaus / Schmidt-Isserstedt (Decca)
5) Gilels / Ludwig (EMI) or Backhaus / Schmidt-Isserstedt (Decca)

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:17 am

Trilogy wrote:
maestrob wrote:These recordings, with Reiner, were immensely popular in their day and are still highly regarded:

Argerich in I, II & III:

Argerich can do no wrong!

I'll add Carl Seemann, and Clara Haskil. (Sonatas)

Btw ... Mel, Love the album cover in your sig.

Trilogy, thank you for noticing my Argerich sig., m8. I hope those who are not that familiar with her dynamic performances, will obtain her soon to be released DG Collections 3 budget box. Martha shines so brightly with her friends in some amazing
renditions.

bombasticDarren · Post by **bombasticDarren** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:28 am

Prometheus wrote:The most recent recordings I have are those of Zinman with the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich. The 3rd disc in the series includes Choral Fantasy, which I find to be the best recorded piece of the 3 disc set.

All the Bronfman/Zinman discs are of exceptional quality in my opinion.

I would also recommend the Kovacevich/C. Davis set on Philips, as well as Aimard/Harnoncourt (if you're in the mood)

stefanher · Post by **stefanher** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:01 am

stenka razin wrote:
Trilogy wrote:
maestrob wrote:These recordings, with Reiner, were immensely popular in their day and are still highly regarded:

Argerich in I, II & III:

Argerich can do no wrong!

I'll add Carl Seemann, and Clara Haskil. (Sonatas)

Btw ... Mel, Love the album cover in your sig.

Trilogy, thank you for noticing my Argerich sig., m8. I hope those who are not that familiar with her dynamic performances, will obtain her soon to be released DG Collections 3 budget box. Martha shines so brightly with her friends in some amazing
renditions.

What is it about Argerich that elicits such hero-worship? I agree she is technically very skilled; but unless your idea of great piano playing is to be able to play louder & faster than anyone else I've never understood her fan club. The original Gramophone review of her Liszt sonata recording in the late 60's still sums her up for me.

Fergus · Post by **Fergus** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:56 am

bombasticDarren wrote:....I would also recommend the Kovacevich/C. Davis set on Philips....

I would also second the Kovacevich

dirkronk · Post by **dirkronk** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:49 am

stefanher wrote:So have their been any recordings in the last 30 years that can seriously challenge my sets with Solomon, Kempff, Serkin & Gilels u.a. ?

Premont said it for me: no.

OK...look. The reason why I haven't weighed in before now is that your original post seems to ask for NEW recordings (or at least new-ish...within the last two or three decades, a-hem!) and that's precisely the period I need to investigate more fully myself. Yet people here seem to be suggesting older sets anyway. Guess I'm confused. Still, I guess I'll put my two cents worth in.

FOR OLDER COMPLETE CYCLES:
Fleisher/Szell (probably most recommendable overall as both an intro and a set to live with, but it doesn't sound like you're a newbie, so...), Gilels/Szell (with only minor reservations), Kempff/van Kempen (superb; trumps the stereo Kempff/Leitner IMO but both are worth consideration), Solomon (GOD I love that pianist's work), and post-war Gieseking (mostly w/ Herbie the K). I personally love some of the performances from the Backhaus/Schmidt-Isserstedt cycle, though all aren't equally strong. It has taken me decades, but I'm finally starting to reevaluate the old (Bishop-)Kovacevich cycle with Davis and finding things to love (I previously found this cycle rather tepid, but maybe turning 60 has inflicted me with "old man" tastes). However, I still don't like Ashkenazy/Solti, Barenboim/Klemperer, or several other critically acclaimed sets, so go figure.

FOR INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCES (MY REAL PREFERENCE):
1. Richter/Munch, Katchen/Gamba, Backhaus/S-I.
2. Kapell/Golschmann (seriously...listen to this one), Backhaus/S-I.
3. Annie Fischer/Fricsay. Probably the only Beethoven concerto performance for which I'm tempted to use the term "definitive." Haskil/Markevitch, Moravec (quirky but appealing).
4. Fleisher/Szell (still takes top honors with me) and Gilels/Ludwig. Scarcely below this top tier: Moravec, Serkin/Ormandy, and a live Backhaus/Cantelli from Carnegie Hall (early '50s). Among recent contenders, I rather like some live performances I've heard by Helene Grimaud.
5. E. Fischer/Furtwangler and Backhaus/Schmidt-Isserstedt are still tops for me, but there are a lot of really, really good Emperors out there. Name your fave. Me, I'll suggest among historic examples: de Groot/Mengelberg and the intense live wartime Gieseking/Rother. If you can find the Mindru Katz, take a listen. Ditto Michelangeli/Celibidache (live and rather amazing), though I also like ABM's versions with Rossi (mid-1960s) and Giulini (DGG).

FOR MORE RECENT RECORDINGS:
Remember my warning. Most recent sets I either haven't heard at all or have heard only portions. Examples:
Perahia/Haitink and Uchida/Sanderling...haven't heard the entire cycles. Really like what I've heard of the Perahia, though, while I'm still evaluating the Uchida. Two that I've heard all the way through BUT only one time each: Kristian Zimerman (self conducted in 1 & 2, w/ Bernstein in 3, 4 & 5) and the recent Kissin/C.Davis. I like things about both of them, but need more listening to both before making a firm recommendation. (BTW, one good thing about the Zimerman/Bernstein numbers...Lennie isn't in s-l-o-w mode, as he seemed to be in several performances late in his career.) Re the Kissin/Davis, next time through, I want to evaluate the approach of pianist vs. conductor; I came away the first time thinking this might be an ever so slight mismatch (sort of like the Gilels/Szell, which I've discussed on other threads). The Bronfman/Zinman got strong consensus recommendation in past threads on this topic, but I haven't heard this cycle at all. One that I know some people really like (rogch on this board, for example, and a lot of critics have gushed as well) but that I do NOT like AT ALL is Aimard/Harnoncourt. Fact is, this was an extreme disappointment to me: I love the pianist in other repertoire, so I was very much looking forward to his LvB, and Harnoncourt needs no added praise, but to my ears something went dreadfully awry here: tempos, phrasing, everything sounds wrong, wrong, wrong. And this comment comes after three listens all the way through the complete cycle...PLUS a later attempt (about three months after the first three) at a fourth listen that I simply could not finish. Maybe I'm the odd duck here and you'll love it. All I'm saying is, if you're tempted, try before you buy.

Good luck finding a cycle you like to augment the great performances you already own!

Cheers,

Dirk

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:19 pm

stefanher wrote:
stenka razin wrote:
Trilogy wrote:
maestrob wrote:These recordings, with Reiner, were immensely popular in their day and are still highly regarded:

Argerich in I, II & III:

Argerich can do no wrong!

I'll add Carl Seemann, and Clara Haskil. (Sonatas)

Btw ... Mel, Love the album cover in your sig.

Trilogy, thank you for noticing my Argerich sig., m8. I hope those who are not that familiar with her dynamic performances, will obtain her soon to be released DG Collections 3 budget box. Martha shines so brightly with her friends in some amazing
renditions.

What is it about Argerich that elicits such hero-worship? I agree she is technically very skilled; but unless your idea of great piano playing is to be able to play louder & faster than anyone else I've never understood her fan club. The original Gramophone review of her Liszt sonata recording in the late 60's still sums her up for me.

Ivan Hewitt writing in the Telegraph, in 2009, sums up Ms. Argerich beautifully:

'Most pianists have a manner that goes with their sound; they're "magisterial", "sensitive", "concentrated" or whatever. Argerich doesn't have a manner; she just is. Like a force of nature, she can go from the tiniest delicacy to amazing power in a moment, and without any change of demeanour.

The only parallel is with great pianists of old such as Józef Hofmann, or certain jazz pianists such as Art Tatum. Her magnificent self-possession enlarges whatever she plays, which is what makes her so right for Prokofiev. His magic toys, which could seem merely winsome, become mysterious and even grand in her hands.'

Regards,
Mel

gperkins151 · Post by **gperkins151** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:37 pm

stenka razin wrote: Trilogy, thank you for noticing my Argerich sig., m8. I hope those who are not that familiar with her dynamic performances, will obtain her soon to be released DG Collections 3 budget box. Martha shines so brightly with her friends in some amazing
renditions.

Do you know the exact contents of that box? I already have the Kremer DG box that has all of their DG work compiled, so I wonder how much more will be in there?

hangos · Post by **hangos** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:47 pm

George
Here are the details you requested (from amazon.co.uk, where it has not yet been released)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Martha-Argerich ... 140&sr=1-4
Martin

gperkins151 · Post by **gperkins151** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:53 pm

hangos wrote:George
Here are the details you requested (from amazon.co.uk, where it has not yet been released)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Martha-Argerich ... 140&sr=1-4
Martin

Thanks! Looks like the Kremer recordings (violin sonatas) aren't in there at all.

I wonder what criteria they used for inclusion?

hangos · Post by **hangos** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:57 pm

Mel
Ivan Hewitt certainly has a way with words - his is a perfect summary of a pianist whose demeanour is the opposite of Lang Lang and other gurners - Martha just gets on with it, and it's not her fault if her fingers move too quickly ; this is a facet of her playing of which she seems acutely aware, as it seems to just happen (I take it you've watched the charming video interview with Charles Groves on youtube?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jUG9ERn ... 1&index=21

I tire of all this twaddle about "playing loudest" - have these people listened to her Mozart and beethoven concerto recordings, which are models of restraint?
Her technique is so supreme that she can and does play from the heart - to confound all those people who accuse her of being an emotionless automaton just because she doesn't grimace a lot ; fact is, not many pianists (can afford to) smile or laugh as readily as she does
So there!

Martin

hangos · Post by **hangos** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:02 pm

Just a follow-up ; Argerich (along with Barenboim) was the only "younger generation" pianist (in the 1960s) to be praised by the late great Claudio Arrau, a man not known for praising "bangers" ; indeed, he was highly impressed by her "colour" at the keyboard - hardly a matching aspect to noise and speed, one would have thought.
Also, many (myself included) would consider Arrau and Argerich at pretty opposite ends of the pianistic spectrum, so that was praise indeed!
Martin

Trilogy · Post by **Trilogy** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:33 pm

stefanher wrote:
stenka razin wrote:
Trilogy wrote:
maestrob wrote:These recordings, with Reiner, were immensely popular in their day and are still highly regarded:

Argerich in I, II & III:

Argerich can do no wrong!

I'll add Carl Seemann, and Clara Haskil. (Sonatas)

Btw ... Mel, Love the album cover in your sig.

Trilogy, thank you for noticing my Argerich sig., m8. I hope those who are not that familiar with her dynamic performances, will obtain her soon to be released DG Collections 3 budget box. Martha shines so brightly with her friends in some amazing
renditions.

What is it about Argerich that elicits such hero-worship? I agree she is technically very skilled; but unless your idea of great piano playing is to be able to play louder & faster than anyone else I've never understood her fan club. The original Gramophone review of her Liszt sonata recording in the late 60's still sums her up for me.

We all know that technically she is just incredible, however, there are countless technical wizards out there. What makes Martha stand head and shoulders above the others are the intangible qualities which she brings, she is able to combine technical wizardry with deep feeling. In my opinion she was born with a certain ability not only to understand the music but also to express it musically, and that to me is something which is very rare and deserves praise.

All hail the Queen!

Chung · Post by **Chung** » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:43 pm

Now that we're on the subject, could someone here explain why the set by Fleischer with Szell is so highly regarded? I just listened to it this evening, and while I like it, I don't quite get what the fuss is about. Should I be listening for something special?

I also have the sets with Bronfman & Zinman, Gulda & Stein, Ax & Prévin, Kissin & Davis, and Zacharias & Vonk, and of these sets, I've come to like Ax & Prévin the most.

Thanks,
Chung

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:33 am

Chung wrote:Now that we're on the subject, could someone here explain why the set by Fleischer with Szell is so highly regarded? I just listened to it this evening, and while I like it, I don't quite get what the fuss is about. Should I be listening for something special?

I also have the sets with Bronfman & Zinman, Gulda & Stein, Ax & Prévin, Kissin & Davis, and Zacharias & Vonk, and of these sets, I've come to like Ax & Prévin the most.

Thanks,
Chung

Fire, passion, and the discipline of same. Szell was a master, and so was the young Fleisher, who has now achieved legendary status (He was a pupil of Schnabel's). Perfectly controlled and beautifully done.

dirkronk · Post by **dirkronk** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:59 pm

Chung wrote:Now that we're on the subject, could someone here explain why the set by Fleischer with Szell is so highly regarded? I just listened to it this evening, and while I like it, I don't quite get what the fuss is about. Should I be listening for something special?

Maestrob's response was succinct and apt, but let me suggest this: listen especially to concerto #4. IMO this is the high point of the cycle and literally my favorite performance of this piece of music. Powerful forward momentum, beautiful shaping of each movement, precision of execution from both soloist and orchestra, and especially that thrilling whirlwind of a finale--these are the elements that make it so appealing to me. Still, this is my reaction, and you have your own ears to please. Example: beyond performance considerations, sound is very good for the time, though hardly audiophile by today's expectations, so I'm not sure if sonics come into play in your own evaluation.

That said, the rest of the Fleisher/Szell cycle is good to very (very) good but perhaps not on quite the same high plane. I can, for example, think of several other 3rds and Emperors that I prefer to the ones in this set. But overall, I do believe that it's a fine introduction to the concertos and a set worth living with (as I phrased it in my posting above). One might be tempted to say that it's a conductor-dominated concerto cycle, but I'm more inclined to think that the young Fleisher and the older Szell are simply and comfortably in sync with one another in approach here and all to the good. They gave further proof of this synergy in their Brahms and other piano concerto collaborations. (Check out their Mozart PC#25!) By contrast, Szell's LvB cycle with Gilels feels as though there were issues of speed & power (Szell) vs. inclinations toward more poetic interp (Gilels) that resulted in some tensions that weren't altogether musically convincing.

Don't know if I've helped here or if I've just been exhaling hot air, but hopefully the former.

Cheers,

Dirk

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:55 pm

Chung wrote:I also have the sets with Bronfman & Zinman, Gulda & Stein, Ax & Prévin, Kissin & Davis, and Zacharias & Vonk, and of these sets, I've come to like Ax & Prévin the most.

Thanks,
Chung

I must have at least 30 Complete Sets, but, I have none of the ones you mention...

Post by **Lance** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:25 am

Of those Chung mentions, I have them all except the Zacharias and Vonk set. I'm sure you have these too, Chalkie, especially the Gulda/Stein and Kissin/Colin Davis.

Chalkperson wrote:
Chung wrote:I also have the sets with Bronfman & Zinman, Gulda & Stein, Ax & Prévin, Kissin & Davis, and Zacharias & Vonk, and of these sets, I've come to like Ax & Prévin the most.

Thanks,
Chung
I must have at least 30 Complete Sets, but, I have none of the ones you mention...

stefanher · Post by **stefanher** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:09 am

Thanks everyone. I own many of the recommendations & for more modern recordings the only ones that come up are those with pianists who I doubt will add to those I already have. If I want a new conventional recording looks like it'll be Bronfman. However if I want an original instruments one who is the safest? Seems Tan, Lubin , Brautigam & Schoonderwoerd are the main contenders- anyone have any preferences?

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:50 pm

Lance wrote:Of those Chung mentions, I have them all except the Zacharias and Vonk set. I'm sure you have these too, Chalkie, especially the Gulda/Stein and Kissin/Colin Davis.

No, I have nether of the ones you mention, I have zero interest in Kissin and am not too enthusiastc about Gulda either, I like both Zacharias and Vonk but have never seen their Beethoven Concerto recording which I assume is from Zacharias's EMI days, another great set is Barry Douglas with the Camerata Ireland, he conducts from the keyboard...

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:56 pm

stefanher wrote:Thanks everyone. I own many of the recommendations & for more modern recordings the only ones that come up are those with pianists who I doubt will add to those I already have. If I want a new conventional recording looks like it'll be Bronfman. However if I want an original instruments one who is the safest? Seems Tan, Lubin , Brautigam & Schoonderwoerd are the main contenders- anyone have any preferences?

Brautigam or Lubin...

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:29 pm

Chung wrote:Now that we're on the subject, could someone here explain why the set by Fleischer with Szell is so highly regarded? I just listened to it this evening, and while I like it, I don't quite get what the fuss is about. Should I be listening for something special?

I also have the sets with Bronfman & Zinman, Gulda & Stein, Ax & Prévin, Kissin & Davis, and Zacharias & Vonk, and of these sets, I've come to like Ax & Prévin the most.

Thanks,
Chung

That's an interesting recommendation. I think Ax's star has risen over the last years. I run across more and more reviews of the glowing kind of his work. I view him as the consummate pianist, not too flashy, in the mould of Brendel and Kempff.
His Brahms PC 2 with Haitink is one of my favourite recordings, period.

slofstra · Post by **slofstra** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:39 pm

Here is a sub-question asked of anyone who might know.

Is it difficult to get the rhythm of the 3rd movement of the Emperor right? It never seems to sound exactly the same from one recording to another. Last night I pulled a couple of recordings just to see if my feeling was correct. One recording was the Van Cliburn/ Reiner collaboration mentioned above. The other was Curzon/ Knappertbusch/ Vienna from the early 50s. I picked the latter one, because I know it sounds different. The rhythm in the two recordings is quite different. The CSO under Reiner sound awesome to me; I don't know how an orchestra can maintain unison with a rhythm like that. Anyway what the CSO does there sounds difficult, but what do I know? Maybe, it's just clever trickery. The other recording also sounds very good, but very different and I can't put my finger on it. The mix and the bowing of the violins and the rhythm, everything sounds different from the CSO recording.
I didn't check further last night but in some recordings of this movement the rhythm doesn't sound proper at all, like the orchestra is missing a beat or something.

Anders Wik · Post by **Anders Wik** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:59 pm

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/ ... 473342.jpg

Aimard/Harnoncourt !
A really fine complete recording in very good sound.

Post by **Lance** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:35 pm

Henry, you have piqued my curiosity. As soon as I have some time to make some comparisons (because I have the CDs in question), I will try to make some determinations. My immediate reaction, however, is to think the Curzon-Knappertsbusch-VPO recording would be more "standardized" interpretation, perhaps more in the "traditional" Beethoven manner. No question, Reiner and the CSO would be (and always was) an almost perfect orchestral ensemble, and Van Cliburn was still riding the high waves providing electrical performances yet.

slofstra wrote:Here is a sub-question asked of anyone who might know.

Is it difficult to get the rhythm of the 3rd movement of the Emperor right? It never seems to sound exactly the same from one recording to another. Last night I pulled a couple of recordings just to see if my feeling was correct. One recording was the Van Cliburn/ Reiner collaboration mentioned above. The other was Curzon/ Knappertbusch/ Vienna from the early 50s. I picked the latter one, because I know it sounds different. The rhythm in the two recordings is quite different. The CSO under Reiner sound awesome to me; I don't know how an orchestra can maintain unison with a rhythm like that. Anyway what the CSO does there sounds difficult, but what do I know? Maybe, it's just clever trickery. The other recording also sounds very good, but very different and I can't put my finger on it. The mix and the bowing of the violins and the rhythm, everything sounds different from the CSO recording.
I didn't check further last night but in some recordings of this movement the rhythm doesn't sound proper at all, like the orchestra is missing a beat or something.

Post by **Lance** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:38 pm

I am not a great admirer of period instrument performances/recordings, especially where the piano is concerned. However, that said, I have been most impressed with Ronald Brautigam, who is a wonderfully gifted keyboardist in both historical piano- and modern piano performances I've heard. I also have recordings by Melvyn Tan on historical pianos but rarely listen to them.

stefanher wrote:Thanks everyone. I own many of the recommendations & for more modern recordings the only ones that come up are those with pianists who I doubt will add to those I already have. If I want a new conventional recording looks like it'll be Bronfman. However if I want an original instruments one who is the safest? Seems Tan, Lubin , Brautigam & Schoonderwoerd are the main contenders- anyone have any preferences?

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