Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Your 'hot spot' for all classical music subjects. Non-classical music subjects are to be posted in the Corner Pub.

Moderators: Lance, Corlyss_D

Post Reply
piston
Posts: 10767
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:50 am

Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by piston » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:45 pm

A Rumanian soprano, at the young age of 39, recently decided to take her own life. She did so rather dramatically, too, by posting a picture of one her bloody hands on facebook. Roxana Briban had been quite depressed for the last couple of years and slashing her wrists proved to be her only solution.......
I have been listening to her singing, on video clips from her own webpage, and, to me, she was a very good singer. Early news reports indicate that she had become despondent when a Rumanian opera company severed her contract in 2009. But another report indicates that she, not them, quit the job.
In any case, the world has lost a very good singer to depression:
http://www.roxanabriban.com/video.htm
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

Chalkperson
Disposable Income Specialist
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:19 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:35 am

Life can be really, really, tough on Singers, I won't use the word Diva because I don't think it's quite the right word...sad, very sad...
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

JackC
Posts: 2987
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 10:57 am

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by JackC » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:45 am

Chalkperson wrote:Life can be really, really, tough on Singers, I won't use the word Diva because I don't think it's quite the right word...sad, very sad...

Life is no harder on singers than it is on anyone else. Depression can strike anyone.

HoustonDavid
Posts: 1222
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:38 am

Having been a victim of depression at one time in my life, I can agree with Jack
for a change. It had nothing to do with my reputation as a singer - little to none -
but more to do with a typical chemical imbalance in the brain, which is relatively
easy to correct for most people, with many pharmaceuticals now available, but not
everyone, unfortunately. I am sorry to hear about another victim of this terrible
affliction.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

maestrob
Posts: 7175
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by maestrob » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:22 pm

A singer's career means everything to him/her: it's more than an identity, it's life itself. Same for many other dedicated musicians. I've dealt with many singers who have told me that they only "come fully alive" when performing, and losing their career (or hopes of same) would feel like losing life itself.

It can be a devastating blow to a singer's soul not to have a contract renewed.

At best, many teachers who are singers as well live with a deep envy of their performing colleagues who have fulfilled that part of themselves.

Performers' souls are complex and their feelings run deep: the hardest thing in the world is to be told that you're not wanted for who you are.

Remember Jerry Hadley, from the MET, who had a shining career, and what he did to himself?

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference ... ley&st=cse

Deepest condolences.

JackC
Posts: 2987
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 10:57 am

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by JackC » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:35 pm

maestrob wrote:A singer's career means everything to him/her: it's more than an identity, it's life itself. Same for many other dedicated musicians. I've dealt with many singers who have told me that they only "come fully alive" when performing, and losing their career (or hopes of same) would feel like losing life itself.

It can be a devastating blow to a singer's soul not to have a contract renewed.

At best, many teachers who are singers as well live with a deep envy of their performing colleagues who have fulfilled that part of themselves.

Performers' souls are complex and their feelings run deep: the hardest thing in the world is to be told that you're not wanted for who you are.

Remember Jerry Hadley, from the MET, who had a shining career, and what he did to himself?

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference ... ley&st=cse

Deepest condolences.

All of that may be true, but many people who are not singers or artists have analogous situations. How does a steelworker who has worked for 30 years in the mill to support a family feel when he is laid off, and has no real job prospects, because it is cheaper to purchase steel made in Japan or South Korea? I am not prepared to concede that their "souls" are "less complex" and do not "run as deep" as singers.

The issue/problem is depression, not "deeper" souls.

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9816
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by karlhenning » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:51 pm

No, you must be right, Jack. Artists are just like steel workers, only the result of their productivity differs. Couldn't possibly be any difference in personality type, and therefore could not be any question of different temperaments.

How much easier it to see the world so simply!

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

JackC
Posts: 2987
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 10:57 am

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by JackC » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:03 pm

karlhenning wrote:No, you must be right, Jack. Artists are just like steel workers, only the result of their productivity differs. Couldn't possibly be any difference in personality type, and therefore could not be any question of different temperaments.

How much easier it to see the world so simply!

Cheers,
~Karl
No YOU'RE right. A steelworker who has lost his job, by which he defined himself, as well as the ability to support his family couldn't possibly feel as "deeply" about it as a singer who lost a recording contract. :roll:

"Personaility types" vary across the board, for singers and artists as well as for others.

Heck148
Posts: 3569
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by Heck148 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:11 pm

chronic or acute depression leading to suicide is one of society's greatest tragedies...so many talented, gifted brilliant people have taken their own lives because they simply could not overcome the severity of the disease. apparently they just cannot ever see a positive outcome to their struggles.
A very close member of my family committed suicide c 13 years ago. the pain, the grief and the shock still remain to this day...a life blessed with so many gifts, so many talents - lost...one can never really fathom what went thru the victim's mind that drove them to such a desperate and final action...obviously, they see the world in totally different terms from that perceived by most "normal" people..

depression is sinister and a real killer or crippler...It angers me when people don't regard mental illness as "legitimate" - as if somehow people are just lazy, slacking off, or "faking it".
Heart, kidney, lung disease, etc are perfectly "acceptable" - but mental illness, depression is not regarded the same way...psych centers, in-patient psychiatric clinics close for lack of funding. very sad..

HoustonDavid
Posts: 1222
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:10 pm

Karl, you obviously know nothing about which you choose to sneer. Depression is
a disease of equal opportunity and has nothing to do with "artistic temperament"
or "labor intensive" employment.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9816
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by karlhenning » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:36 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Karl, you obviously know nothing about which you choose to sneer. Depression is a disease of equal opportunity and has nothing to do with "artistic temperament" or "labor intensive" employment.
You obviously mistake me, Dave, if you think I am sneering at depression.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

Chalkperson
Disposable Income Specialist
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:19 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:38 am

JackC wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Life can be really, really, tough on Singers, I won't use the word Diva because I don't think it's quite the right word...sad, very sad...
Life is no harder on singers than it is on anyone else. Depression can strike anyone.
The idea of rejection can really hurt them, see maestro's post for a fuller explanation...
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

Heck148
Posts: 3569
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by Heck148 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:20 am

Chalkperson wrote:
JackC wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Life can be really, really, tough on Singers, I won't use the word Diva because I don't think it's quite the right word...sad, very sad...
Life is no harder on singers than it is on anyone else. Depression can strike anyone.
The idea of rejection can really hurt them, see maestro's post for a fuller explanation...
the professional music world is a tough one. so many instrumentalists face rejection at orchestra auditions, it take a really tough skin to persevere.
I remember reading about one orchestral player who attended over 50 auditions, unsuccessfully, until he/she finally scored a job.
I'm sure others have played alot more than that before achieving success.
not all have the perseverance, tenacity, self-confidence, or $$!! - to keep on the quest.

maestrob
Posts: 7175
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by maestrob » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:51 am

There is nothing in my post that denigrated steelworkers: good grief! I was speaking up for singers and musicians in general, in line with keeping to the topic.

Certainly there are many people in the general population that identify deeply with their professions (doctors, for ex.) or business owners. For such a person to lose their profession through no fault of their own would be, in my estimation, a devastating blow commesurate with a singer or other musician facing contract termination. I've been through losing a business, and believe me, the process is no less painful than losing one's contract as a performer.

If someone who had worked on Wall Street, or been a construction worker for most of his/her working life, well, the situation could be identical and no less traumatic.

We all have our visions of the future for ourselves; when that is suddenly yanked away by circumstances beyond our control, that's where the trauma lies. The point I'm making is that musicians face this scenario in every audition, and live with the fear that it can happen at any moment. This makes a musician's life more stressful, on average, than the civilian population, IMHO.

HoustonDavid
Posts: 1222
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by HoustonDavid » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:51 pm

Dave (Heck148) and Jack have got it right, depression has nothing to do with
"artistic temperament" or "labor intensive work", it is a disease, like measles.
It is an equal opportunity affliction. Sure, people in creative fields like music
have to deal with rejection and the stress and pain it entails. But depression is
not an outcome of sadness or pain, anxiety or stress; it is the outcome of a
chemical imbalance in the brain whose origin is not well understood, but can
afflict anyone.

The physical pain inherent in manual labor also has nothing to do with depression,
nor the anguish of losing employment, or the pain of separation, divorce, death,
disease, chronic pain, etc., etc., etc. It is a disease unto itself, like pneumonia or
cancer. It alone is the only potentially deadly mental illness because it often leads
to suicide. It is not possible to "suck it up" or "pull up your bootstraps" or "quit
your bellyaching", or "look on the bright side".

The only path out of the living hell of depression is either time or through medical
intervention in the form of anti-depressants and often counseling. Unfortunately,
it doesn't work for everyone. Just waiting for it to "go away" usually works if you
have enough patience and can abide the suffering; but professional help is usually
more likely to end the suffering and do it faster. Unfortunately, neither method is
guaranteed to succeed, and too often the terrible outcome is suicide.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

Chalkperson
Disposable Income Specialist
Posts: 17669
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:19 pm
Location: New York City
Contact:

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:26 pm

Heck148 wrote:the professional music world is a tough one. so many instrumentalists face rejection at orchestra auditions, it take a really tough skin to persevere.
I remember reading about one orchestral player who attended over 50 auditions, unsuccessfully, until he/she finally scored a job.
I'm sure others have played alot more than that before achieving success.
not all have the perseverance, tenacity, self-confidence, or $$!! - to keep on the quest.
Being a photographer I have an Agent, she is under instructions not to tell me about "maybe" jobs, too many times they just don't happen, whilst that may make life easier for me, the same is not true with my Rep as she hears the rejection (and loses her Commission if the job falls thru), then she can't discuss it with me or her other Artists, no offense to Jack and the Steelworkers analogy but they do not suffer rejection in the same way as a Singer, Musician or Actor...self doubt comes into play, the "what if" factor happens and we can't sleep at night due to worry, I seriously doubt that a Steelworker goes home and worries about his job in the same way an artist does...however...if the Steelworker loses his job then of course the situation is totally different and he has to live with his job loss and then suffer the rejection process whilst looking for a new job...bottom line, ANYONE losing their job has the potential for suicide if the depression takes over their wish to live, I hope this makes sense, I have had four friends commit suicide, you (their friends and family) never get over it...
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

JackC
Posts: 2987
Joined: Tue May 20, 2003 10:57 am

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by JackC » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:47 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Heck148 wrote:the professional music world is a tough one. so many instrumentalists face rejection at orchestra auditions, it take a really tough skin to persevere.
I remember reading about one orchestral player who attended over 50 auditions, unsuccessfully, until he/she finally scored a job.
I'm sure others have played alot more than that before achieving success.
not all have the perseverance, tenacity, self-confidence, or $$!! - to keep on the quest.
Being a photographer I have an Agent, she is under instructions not to tell me about "maybe" jobs, too many times they just don't happen, whilst that may make life easier for me, the same is not true with my Rep as she hears the rejection (and loses her Commission if the job falls thru), then she can't discuss it with me or her other Artists, no offense to Jack and the Steelworkers analogy but they do not suffer rejection in the same way as a Singer, Musician or Actor...self doubt comes into play, the "what if" factor happens and we can't sleep at night due to worry, I seriously doubt that a Steelworker goes home and worries about his job in the same way an artist does...however...if the Steelworker loses his job then of course the situation is totally different and he has to live with his job loss and then suffer the rejection process whilst looking for a new job...bottom line, ANYONE losing their job has the potential for suicide if the depression takes over their wish to live, I hope this makes sense, I have had four friends commit suicide, you (their friends and family) never get over it...

There are obvious differences between many artists and many steelworkers. And they are vastly different personality traits between different artists and also between different steelworkers. Everyone is under stress in life and different people worry about different things.

The point is that you will not find the reason for/key to suicidal depression by looking at a person's occupation or his or her level of success within an occupation. Depression has nothing to do with that.

HoustonDavid
Posts: 1222
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am
Location: Houston, Texas, USA

Re: Been hesitating two days about posting this....

Post by HoustonDavid » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:21 pm

Chalkie (and others):

I too spent my professional life in a stressful, creative environment - writing.
As deadline approached on a major project, I often worked 24's back to back
with a few hours of blessed rest in between. Then I had to wait, sometimes
weeks or months, to know if the work had been successful. My period of deep
and morose depression came when I was working as a clerk behind the cash
register under no stress or anxiety whatsoever - it was after "retiring" as a
writer because nobody wanted to hire a 63-year old aging professional, and
had nothing to do with changing employment, or anything else for that matter.

I cannot emphasize strongly enough that depression is not brought about by
sorrow, pain, stress, or joy, happiness, and accomplishment. It simply isn't
related to one's general nature, profession, lifestyle, success, failure, joy or sorrow.
It is a non-communicable disease of the brain, probably related to an imbalance
of serotonin, but not completely understood.

It is in the same category of human afflictions as bi-polar disorder and schizophrenia.
You don't catch them by being a singer, photographer, writer or steelworker. They
come and get us whether we like it or not. The best thing anyone with depression
can do is get treated by competent professional medical and mental health professionals,
just like you would if you developed another treatable condition such as a broken bone.
Unfortunately, like cancer, it doesn't always work and too often ongoing misery or even
suicide is a result.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], mikealdren and 39 guests