Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:23 pm

IcedNote wrote:Since I posted the article, I'll state my opinion: Most Mozart bores me silly. I like pieces here and there (e.g. D Minor Concerto, G Minor Quintet, C Major Quartet), but the other stuff...no thank you, mam. I need some edge in my music, and I simply don't hear it in Mozart.
<gulp>

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:36 pm

Tarantella wrote: May I also respectfully suggest that the greater number of people who like and appreciate something the lesser is the chance of that thing being anything other than spectacularly accessible.
In that case Beethoven is absolute excrement. Everybody loves his music.
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:39 pm

IcedNote wrote:
diegobueno wrote:I find all of those things there. Keep looking.
diegobueno wrote:It's clear from the comments of some people here that Mozart is very very difficult to understand.
There you go again. The CMG highhorse is in full gear!

-G
And what the hell makes you think you're the only one who has the right to make pronouncements from on high.
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:46 pm

diegobueno wrote:
IcedNote wrote:
diegobueno wrote:I find all of those things there. Keep looking.
diegobueno wrote:It's clear from the comments of some people here that Mozart is very very difficult to understand.
There you go again. The CMG highhorse is in full gear!

-G
And what the hell makes you think you're the only one who has the right to make pronouncements from on high.
With a few moments to spare I visited both websites. One was pretty informative, the other just a page of ads. I couldn't find anything musical. But then.......having listened to Cage's lectures on Indeterminacy I wondered if it was a Cage moment....

:mrgreen:

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by John F » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:54 pm

Come on, guys, break it up. Let's not get personal toward each other. (Getting personal toward Rosner is OK because it's behind his back. :mrgreen: )
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:03 pm

Quite. But he came up with one good suggestion. I might indeed try to rewrite that Requiem with a bicycle pump part. No worse than Hoffnung rewriting a Leopold Mozart Concerto for Hose-pipe and Strings. Dennis Brain on the hosepipe.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hoffnung-Music- ... sic&sr=1-2

:mrgreen:

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by John F » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:15 pm

Yeah, Dennis Brain could play just about anything, couldn't he? (Including the organ. He does that in an EMI recording of the "Cavalleria Rusticana" intermezzo.)
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:21 pm

A superb, gifted performer who came from a family of hornplayers. I recently bought a second CD of his playing to exceed the boundary of the Mozart Concertos I treasure.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by johnQpublic » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:36 pm

And I wonder what Mr. Brain thought of Mozart..LOL!
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:17 pm

diegobueno wrote:
Tarantella wrote: May I also respectfully suggest that the greater number of people who like and appreciate something the lesser is the chance of that thing being anything other than spectacularly accessible.
In that case Beethoven is absolute excrement. Everybody loves his music.
I see I've hit a nerve here!!

I don't actually think this is the case at all re Beethoven. Many people dislike Beethoven and prefer Mozart, finding Beethoven self-dramatizing and bombastic. He's not the go-to composer for people who normally "really like Mozart - it's nice". I conducted a survey in my final year in Musicology, as part of a large assignment, and I interviewed people going to recitals. The majority said they "like Beethoven's symphonies but cannot understand and do not like his piano sonatas". They all preferred Chopin and Mozart, they said!!

From looking at some of the posts following your comment about 'excrement' I can see this is turning ugly and I'll not be contributing any further.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by IcedNote » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:22 pm

diegobueno wrote:And what the hell makes you think you're the only one who has the right to make pronouncements from on high.
Come again? Where are said pronouncements?

-G
Harakiried composer reincarnated as a nonprofit development guy.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by IcedNote » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:28 pm

John F wrote:Come on, guys, break it up. Let's not get personal toward each other. (Getting personal toward Rosner is OK because it's behind his back. :mrgreen: )
Ahhhhh, I see.

I tend to think that quite a number of folks here at CMG have a tendency to get on their high horse(s) for whatever reason. So when I directed "the CMG high horse" at Mark, I meant it as a symptom of a collective number of members, not solely him.

-G

PS. Perhaps some of you remember a similar thread about me not liking Copland. Similar sentiments were directed at my "lack of musicality" or whatever then, too. :roll:
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by IcedNote » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:30 pm

And by the way, if any of you don't love the butternut squash soup at Thomas Keller's "Bouchon," I cannot possibly consider you a serious foodie.

-G
Harakiried composer reincarnated as a nonprofit development guy.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Heck148 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:14 pm

IcedNote wrote:PS. Perhaps some of you remember a similar thread about me not liking Copland. Similar sentiments were directed at my "lack of musicality" or whatever then, too.
To each his own, of course. I've often mentioned my relatively low estimation of Rachman'ff as a composer - I regard him as a 3rd or 4th stringer...and I have my musical reasons which I willingly cite - poor orchestration, overly dense texture, formal disorganization, "sprawl", awkward transitions, etc, etc...
I know that many love his music and rate it highly. I don't. Chacun a son gout.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by slofstra » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:36 pm

I have always thought Friedrich von Flotow was overrated. But perhaps I should listen to him once again just to be sure. Now where is that CD.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by johnQpublic » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:58 pm

slofstra wrote: Now where is that CD?
Right beside the Rosner! :lol:
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:00 pm

absinthe wrote: With a few moments to spare I visited both websites. One was pretty informative, the other just a page of ads. I couldn't find anything musical. But then.......having listened to Cage's lectures on Indeterminacy I wondered if it was a Cage moment....

:mrgreen:
It took me a while to figure out you meant that you visited Garrett's and my website. I thank you for the effort you took, and will let you know when my site is back on line.

Now if you're trying to set me and Garrett against each other on the basis of compositions, I'll not hear of it. Garrett is a fine composer and he's got a great career ahead of him. He's got his career act together like I never will, and he's got all sorts of amazing commissions coming his way. I salute him.

That doesn't mean I won't continue to argue with him about Mozart (actually I won't right now, because I'm tired of it), because I'm an opinionated and argumentative SOB, and, you know, that's what opinionated and argumentative SOBs do.

Yes, there was also a thread about Copland where I suggested that Garrett would appreciate Copland later in life. He doesn't want to be told that, but I like to think that he will, because I know he's a good musician. Well, you should never tell people they'll like X later in life. It just doesn't go over. But I think of certain composers that I started out really really hating. I'm talking about Wagner and Mahler here. Oh, those guys were just long-winded angst-driven bores. In my earlier, but equally opinionated and argumentative days, I would have fought battles against Mahler and Wagner lovers. But one day I said "OK, so a lot of people like these guys. Let's find out why". And I took the attitude that, whatever else I had felt about this music, I was going to assume that I was going to like it. And you know what, I turned into an avid Mahler- and Wagnerite. You just never know.
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:14 pm

You've turned into a Mahler fan? Everything else is satisfactory, though? (Giddey up!!)

I've always thought Mahler and Bruckner were 'windbags' and, God knows, I've tried over the years with both of them - to no avail. I used to drive one hour each way in my last teaching job and a colleague game me some Mahler symphonies to 'try out' during that drive. No use!! Never was I so glad to get to school!! They both resembled film music, to me, but then I'm an opinionated SOB (sister of a bitch!).

It's "unseemly" for a woman of my age - grandmother and all - to have such an attitude, isn't it? When my friends are all talking about grandchildren, gardening, orchid competitions, arts and craft, "beautiful trips to Bali" etc. here I am being a musical heretic on CMG. I know no shame!!

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:35 pm

What, are you trying to steal my thunder? I'm the heretic here. I actually like Mozart. AND I like Haydn! And I like Mahler and Wagner very much. People who love the first two aren't supposed to tolerate the other two, and vice versa.
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:43 pm

I defer to your greater 'heretic-ness'. :lol:

Oh, I get it...I've just noticed you're a 'wind' specialist. Makes sense NOW!! Ergo: 'windbags'...etc.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:59 pm

You meant to say "flatulence", didn't you. (If I didn't say it, someone else would, and as a Mozartean it's my duty to tell the scatological joke)
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:17 am

diegobueno wrote:Now if you're trying to set me and Garrett against each other on the basis of compositions, I'll not hear of it. Garrett is a fine composer and he's got a great career ahead of him. He's got his career act together like I never will, and he's got all sorts of amazing commissions coming his way. I salute him.
Not at all. :lol: :lol: :lol:
But you were rude to me the other day so I couldn't resist the mischief.


Really - you do take life so seriously.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:33 am

I'm glad we've settled the question, then, that Mozart is over-rated. Phew; that's a relief! :D

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by lennygoran » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:01 am

IcedNote wrote:And by the way, if any of you don't love the butternut squash soup at Thomas Keller's "Bouchon," I cannot possibly consider you a serious foodie.

-G
I concede it's wonderful vicariously in order to keep my reputation as a foodie--wish I could afford to really try it! Regards, Len :)

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:02 am

Tarantella wrote:I'm glad we've settled the question, then, that Mozart is over-rated. Phew; that's a relief! :D
Now now. Surely you don't want more of this.
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by lennygoran » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:06 am

Tarantella wrote: gardening,
Go for the gardening--maybe you'll do better there than with the Mozart opinions! Regards, Len [fleeing] :)

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:34 am

What: and be a 'pretended girl gardener' or something? Cheers, Tarantella (weeding)

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by lennygoran » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:08 am

Tarantella wrote:What: and be a 'pretended girl gardener' or something? Cheers, Tarantella (weeding)
I don't know what that means--"pretended girl gardener"--could you explain that--anyway were you weeding recently--just yesterday we spent 3 hours removing unwanted growth from our garden--weeds and other villains--wild grapevine and virginia creeper. Regards, Len :(

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by John F » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:10 am

That's a knowledgeable reference to a Mozart opera, one you may not have seen. With this clue, I'm sure you can find out the rest for yourself. :)
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Teresa B » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:32 am

I have been off the board for a week, but will beat the now-dead horse with my 2 cents too! There are periodic threads in which someone posts something like "Mozart is overrated", or "Stockhausen is completely unintelligible", etc. My personal opinion is that Mozart was one of the greatest of all composers, his music contains far, far more than superficial prettiness, and I never tire of it. I also love Beethoven equally.

It's perfectly fine for anyone to dislike, or be bored by, any particular composer's music, and to express that opinion. It's when we get into remarks like "If you don't like this music, you obviously don't understand it," or "If this music is loved by so many of the Great Unwashed it must be simple 'muzak'", blah blah blah--that is singularly unhelpful, and is guaranteed to provoke backlash.

I as a Mozart lover (and I have a lot of familiarity with his music) do not like to be told, either directly or by implication, that I must be simple-minded. By the same token, I do not like Stockhausen; I could say, anyone who likes his compositions must be the equivalent of those "artsy" folks who look at a blank canvas and declare it a masterpiece. But really, I have to admit I have a certain bias and mindset, and so does everyone else. I simply don't have a taste for that music, and I don't even try to find the depth or the meaning in it. So who am I to criticize those who have found it moving? The same goes for Mozart. If you just don't care for it, it does not mean there is no depth to be plumbed by other souls.

Different strokes...

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:52 am

All of what you argue is perfectly true. However, these discussions do arise from time to time and, as you rightly suggest, can get out of hand. I've found these same discussions on other music message-boards and they become much more ugly. The most virulent arguments are often about the avant-garde, from my experience. It's good for people to hold passionate opinions because good discussion/argument often reveals that they are THINKING listeners of serious music, and when they defend a position they often reveal quite a depth of knowledge - so all is not lost. And I don't think anybody was suggesting what others should or should not like - it was a discussion on the merits of the sanctification of Mozart and whether or not that could be justified after more than 200 years, particularly from the perspective of subsequent developments in music. Well, that was my reading of it anyway.

It's a good question to ask as well as, perhaps, why people still hold so firmly to music from the 18th century and what particular value/s it holds today for modern audiences. This isn't a question which needs to be limited strictly to musicians - who will have their own particular reasons and set of values regarding Mozart (indeed, you've spoken eloquently before about why you love Mozart). What astonishes me, too, is the way in which Mozart has been 'adopted' by Asian countries, such as China and Japan, as their own and embraced so comprehensively by those musicians and audiences - when they have strong musical cultures of their own. I wonder if my comment about 'accessibility' to the millions might not be coming into play there? (And I didn't mean the Great Unwashed - merely that people respond more readily to things they can understand, rather than the more esoteric fare.)

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by lennygoran » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:02 am

Tarantella wrote:What: and be a 'pretended girl gardener' or something? Cheers, Tarantella (weeding)
Thanks to you and Wiki--if they did that opera in the NY area traditionally I'd be there in a flash! I have a copy of that opera and may play it while making dinner tonight!

"La finta giardiniera ("The Pretend Garden-Girl"), K. 196, is an Italian opera by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Mozart wrote it in Munich in January 1775 when he was 18 years old and it received its first performance on January 13 at the Salvatortheater in Munich. There is debate over the authorship of the libretto; the current belief is that it was written by Giuseppe Petrosellini."

Regards, Len [g]

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:16 am

I'm glad you've found another Mozart work which you can enjoy!! Seems I've said at least something right!

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:33 am

Tarantella wrote:The most virulent arguments are often about the avant-garde, from my experience. It's good for people to hold passionate opinions because good discussion/argument often reveals that they are THINKING listeners of serious music, and when they defend a position they often reveal quite a depth of knowledge
THINK? Good grief, do you have to do that too? Hmmm...that's where I've been going wrong.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:40 am

I THINK, therefore I AM.

Yep; looks like it!
Last edited by Tarantella on Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by lennygoran » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:41 am

Tarantella wrote:I'm glad you've found another Mozart work which you can enjoy!! Seems I've said at least something right!
I got into opera too late but I'm trying to enjoy what I can now--there's so much out there I'd like to see but there are some disturbing trends for me. First in the NYC area they do too many repeats again and again. Then there are new ones that get me excited but they are done in non-traditional ways which I can't stand--for example Bellini's La sonnambula done at the Met for the first time in 38 years in what I consider an awful changing of the story and atmosphere Bellini composed. Recently I decided not to attend a Mozart opera I could have seen from Gotham Opera--l sogno di Scipione-- because they were going to update it and I didn't like the videos I saw of it. Next season NYCO is doing Rossini's Moses In Egypt--I love Rossini--maybe even more than Mozart for opera but for me the big question is whether they'll modernize and ruin it for me. :( Then there's Verdi's Masked Ball--Alden is doing a new dreamy production of the opera and I've decided not to go--the cast sounds just superb--of course the cast for La sonnambula was superb too but for me seeing this live at the Met has to rank as one of the worst opera experiences I've ever had.

Next week we'll be going for 2 new operas for us--Glimmerglass in Cooperstown NY is doing Lully's Armide and when we come back after going on to Canada we'll stop off for Bard's The King in Spite of Himself, an opéra comique about a reluctant ruler by Saint-Saëns’s contemporary Emmanuel Chabrier. I'm very nervous that Bard will modernize the opera and ruin the experience for me but I'm gambling--last summer they muffed one of the only Strauss operas I had never seen--Die Liebe der Danae--wonderful music but they modernized it and to make matters worse the headlights of the jalopy happened to shine right in my face when it was out there on stage. Regards, Len :(

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:46 am

Tarantella wrote:What: and be a 'pretended girl gardener' or something? Cheers, Tarantella (weeding)
:) Even I think that's witty.
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:57 am

That's a rather eclectic mix of operas you've got, right there. Many of you live in or near New York and I can't tell you how grand that sounds to me down here in the Antipodes, near Sydney. It would be a veritable smorgasbord, I'm sure. We get our interminable re-runs of "Aida" and the Mozart operas over and over and over again!!

I prefer Strauss out of all those you've mentioned. I saw "Salome", "Die Frau ohne Schatten" und "Ariadne auf Naxos" last year in Vienna.

Now you've touched on another interesting/controversial subject: the 'modernization' in staging operas. There are those who would argue that these works will be completely consigned to the museum if audiences don't find them 'relevant' - and I'm thinking of works older than 100 years here. I saw 'Rodelinda' and "Castor und Pollux" modernized in Vienna and they worked perfectly well - magnificent, in fact. As long as these aren't too "postmodern" for our tastes we can usually get around them, otherwise they become rather Brechtian in their sense of 'alienation'. I often feel we are being 'preached to' in these circumstances. Anything too outrageous needs a vote with the feet. But there have been some egregious productions which have sent people from theatres faster than a cowpoke with a cactus under his saddle (sorry, but I couldn't resist this metaphor for the "high horse"!).

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:05 am

Tarantella wrote:I THINK, therefore I AM.

Yep; looks like it!
Hah! And I thought good-old Des Carties said "I DRINK, therefore I am"

:mrgreen:

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:06 am

diegobueno wrote:
Tarantella wrote:What: and be a 'pretended girl gardener' or something? Cheers, Tarantella (weeding)
:) Even I think that's witty.
Aww... uh...are you unwell?

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by diegobueno » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:11 am

absinthe wrote: Aww... uh...are you unwell?
I dunno. Are you?
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by THEHORN » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:22 pm

Sometimes I do get anoyed by exaggerated reverence for Mozart, and certainly, not everything he wrote is a sublime masterpiece. Many of his early works are pleasant but vapid . But there is no question that when he is at his best, Mozart's works most definitley ARE sublime masterpieces .

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by lennygoran » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:32 pm

Tarantella wrote:
Now you've touched on another interesting/controversial subject: the 'modernization' in staging operas. There are those who would argue that these works will be completely consigned to the museum if audiences don't find them 'relevant' - and I'm thinking of works older than 100 years here. I saw 'Rodelinda' and "Castor und Pollux" modernized in Vienna and they worked perfectly well - magnificent, in fact. As long as these aren't too "postmodern" for our tastes we can usually get around them, otherwise they become rather Brechtian in their sense of 'alienation'. I often feel we are being 'preached to' in these circumstances. Anything too outrageous needs a vote with the feet. But there have been some egregious productions which have sent people from theatres faster than a cowpoke with a cactus under his saddle (sorry, but I couldn't resist this metaphor for the "high horse"!).

Yes I'm aware of the modernizing supporters but I remain
Opposed-sometimes I feel I'm losing the battle. Len :(

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:46 pm

I recently bough Angela Hewitt's new disc of Mozart Concertos, I listened to the end of the disc but it was a struggle, not because of the playing in any way, I just felt I could not listen to any of these Concertos again, I gave up on the Symphonies a decade or more ago, same with the Violin Concertos. I still like all the Chamber Music but not the Piano works, the Operas remain a great joy. There is nothing wrong with Mozart, it's just that his Symphonies and Concertos just don't last for ever, the ones by Beethoven do, however...
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:49 pm

Tarantella wrote:I've always thought Mahler and Bruckner were 'windbags' and, God knows, I've tried over the years with both of them - to no avail. I used to drive one hour each way in my last teaching job and a colleague game me some Mahler symphonies to 'try out' during that drive. No use!! Never was I so glad to get to school!! They both resembled film music, to me, but then I'm an opinionated SOB (sister of a bitch!).

It's "unseemly" for a woman of my age - grandmother and all - to have such an attitude, isn't it? When my friends are all talking about grandchildren, gardening, orchid competitions, arts and craft, "beautiful trips to Bali" etc. here I am being a musical heretic on CMG. I know no shame!!
Strauss has never impressed me, especially the Operas, I discovered Bruckner early but Mahler late, i'm 57 so I reckon you still have time to enjoy Mahler, it's totally fine not to like Bruckner IMHO...but how can somebody not like Mahler in the 21st Century...
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by karlhenning » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:50 pm

Tarantella wrote:Now you've touched on another interesting/controversial subject: the 'modernization' in staging operas. There are those who would argue that these works will be completely consigned to the museum if audiences don't find them 'relevant' [...]
Let's back up, though. We've not gotten to any argument of the case, but the phrase "consigned to the museum" is immediately bandied about like a cudgel.

Renoir canvases are much more recent than Mozart, and they rightly hang in museums; where is the ass who suggests that they need to be "modernized" in order to "remain relevant" to today's audience?

Works of art do in fact belong to some degree to their own epoch. (They also have enduring qualities of integrity and artistry — which is why they are classic; they do not become classic by modern audiences misshaping them to their own tastes.)

Treating Mozart as an eighteenth-c. composer is no matter of "consigning him to irrelevancy." If we shred his work to make it a twenty-first-c. "product" — that is when his work is made irrelevant. For it is no longer Mozart's work, but the butchery of some dim bulb of our own day.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:53 pm

You've absolutely nailed it - that's how I feel!! As I said, I passed my peak 28 years ago and my passion for serious music has grown exponentially since then. But, in deference to those who love Mozart, there are obviously good reasons for them doing so - because I've been there. And you're right about the operas - they are 'charming', but I never feel absolutely thrilled as I do with baroque opera.

I just think the whole hagiographic thing has gone way, way over-board. I'll simply this issue: there's life after Mozart!

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Tarantella » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:04 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Tarantella wrote:Now you've touched on another interesting/controversial subject: the 'modernization' in staging operas. There are those who would argue that these works will be completely consigned to the museum if audiences don't find them 'relevant' [...]
Let's back up, though. We've not gotten to any argument of the case, but the phrase "consigned to the museum" is immediately bandied about like a cudgel.

Renoir canvases are much more recent than Mozart, and they rightly hang in museums; where is the ass who suggests that they need to be "modernized" in order to "remain relevant" to today's audience?

Works of art do in fact belong to some degree to their own epoch. (They also have enduring qualities of integrity and artistry — which is why they are classic; they do not become classic by modern audiences misshaping them to their own tastes.)

Treating Mozart as an eighteenth-c. composer is no matter of "consigning him to irrelevancy." If we shred his work to make it a twenty-first-c. "product" — that is when his work is made irrelevant. For it is no longer Mozart's work, but the butchery of some dim bulb of our own day.

Cheers,
~Karl
I don't say I agree with all modern productions, but I was trying to play devil's advocate to suggest why some are produced in this way. And my words were not "consigning him to irrelevancy". I was cautious about my words and their order. But the constant argument waged with regard to 'modern' production is 'relevance' - and these are not my ideas, sir. As I say, I've seen some excellent modern productions and those which come out of Paris Opera Garnier, for television, of baroque masterpieces.... well, some are downright silly but others really work well, IMO. Last year I saw three modernized operas in Vienna - "Don Giovanni", "Rodelinda" and "Castor and Pollux" and I have no complaint about any of these because they were'nt POST-modern, which is where the problems really arise. With "Don Giovanni", the slant in that production was of a rapist Don and Leporello as Pimp. It was confronting, but this is a post Strauss-Kahn and Roman Polanski world!! The resonances were clear, as they were at Drottningholm Baroque Theatre in original costume, some months earlier. There we had a very unpleasant and sleazy "Don", not in any way attractive.

In my country, Australia, most of the problems for post-modernization of operas occurs when there are young, maverick directors trying to carve a niche for themselves and using opera as a vehicle for that. Barry Koskey is one name which comes to mind - he's working in Berlin at the moment - and his productions have been hugely controversial over the years. This article tells some of the story:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/gro ... -rf8t.html

Some of the comments at the end of the article are interesting too!

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by Seán » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:06 pm

Tarantella wrote:You've turned into a Mahler fan? Everything else is satisfactory, though? (Giddey up!!)

I've always thought Mahler and Bruckner were 'windbags' and, God knows, I've tried over the years with both of them - to no avail.
They are very different, I can appreciate one tiring of Bruckner.
I used to drive one hour each way in my last teaching job and a colleague game me some Mahler symphonies to 'try out' during that drive. No use!! Never was I so glad to get to school!! They both resembled film music, to me, but then I'm an opinionated SOB (sister of a bitch!).
Well, I doubt very much if you can concentrate on Mahler's Marvelous Music in a car, you will miss out on the delivery of the music in the lower end of his extraordinary dynamic range. Mahler's music is not like cinema music at all unless of course you are watching a Ken Russell or Fellini film.
If you want to try to listen to Mahler again you should consider doing so in a quiet place, get a recording by a great Mahler conductor like Kubelik or Abbado and let the music wash over you. It definitely does reward repeated listening.
It's "unseemly" for a woman of my age - grandmother and all - to have such an attitude, isn't it? When my friends are all talking about grandchildren, gardening, orchid competitions, arts and craft, "beautiful trips to Bali" etc. here I am being a musical heretic on CMG. I know no shame!!
Ah, nobody's perfect. :wink: I should know, neither am I. :lol:


On the subject of Mozart: when Rosner is long dead and gone people will still enjoy Mozart's music and when asked about him will exclaim, Rosner who? What great contributions did he make to music? Stunned silence!
Seán

"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler

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Re: Arnold Rosner: Mozart most overrated of all composers

Post by absinthe » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:18 pm

^^ That's right. No critic ever had a statue raised to him.....except Shaw and that's because the sculptor thought he was Brahms.

:mrgreen:

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