Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

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dulcinea
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Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:10 pm

... which other composers have written notable cantata Masses?
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

jbuck919
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:57 pm

dulcinea wrote:... which other composers have written notable cantata Masses?
Bach himself wrote a few abbreviated parody masses, settings of individual parts of the Ordinary usually based on cantata movements. I know this in part because one movement was (rather unfairly) presented to me for attribution in my comprehensive exam in college. I got the composer correct, because Bach is unmistakable, but figuring out the rest, well, at that time I had not a clue.

Aside from that, you are barking up the wrong tree. Apart from a few well-known exceptions, the Mass as a serious composition by an important composer died with the Renaissance. I suggest you direct your attention backward from 1600, for the number of masterpieces in this form from that time is scarcely to be believed.

vhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach's_church_music_in_Latin

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John F
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by John F » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:20 am

dulcinea isn't asking about masses adapted from the music of cantatas but about a particular musical structure: "The so-called 'Neapolitan' or 'cantata' mass style also had much influence on 18th-century mass composition with its short sections set as self-contained solo arias and choruses in a variety of styles." (Wikipedia) That said, it's still not clear what she wants. All masses for church use are divided into sections according to the requirements of the liturgy: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei. If that's it, then the list is endless. Some masses, like Bach's in B minor and Mozart's in C minor, are further divided into arias, solo ensembles, and choruses, and are consequently very long. If that's what she wants, there are far fewer. How about it, dulcinea?
John Francis

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:15 am

John F wrote:dulcinea isn't asking about masses adapted from the music of cantatas but about a particular musical structure: "The so-called 'Neapolitan' or 'cantata' mass style also had much influence on 18th-century mass composition with its short sections set as self-contained solo arias and choruses in a variety of styles." (Wikipedia) That said, it's still not clear what she wants. All masses for church use are divided into sections according to the requirements of the liturgy: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei. If that's it, then the list is endless. Some masses, like Bach's in B minor and Mozart's in C minor, are further divided into arias, solo ensembles, and choruses, and are consequently very long. If that's what she wants, there are far fewer. How about it, dulcinea?
I mean Masses in the style of the Bach and Mozart you quote, plus the Missa Cellensis that has the number Hoboken XXII:5, Novello 3.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by John F » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:59 pm

In that case, I doubt there are many other cantata masses that would interest you. As an enthusiast of 18th century music, I've picked up recordings of masses by the likes of Hasse and Hummel. But you disparage music that isn't the equal of the great masters', so I can't think of any to recommend to you.

Requiem masses are another matter. Great works in the cantata form continued to be composed throughout the 19th century. But you know about them, and anyway, that's not what you asked for.
John Francis

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:50 pm

John F wrote:In that case, I doubt there are many other cantata masses that would interest you. As an enthusiast of 18th century music, I've picked up recordings of masses by the likes of Hasse and Hummel. But you disparage music that isn't the equal of the great masters', so I can't think of any to recommend to you.
All the contemporaries of WAM and the H brothers are fascinating to me, so stop the teasing and tell me about them!
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by John F » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:00 pm

I'm not teasing, I just don't want to go to the trouble if it isn't going to be worth it.

Three masses by Hummel are on YouTube:





A mass by Johann Adolph Hasse is here:



That's for starters.
John Francis

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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:17 pm

John F wrote:dulcinea isn't asking about masses adapted from the music of cantatas but about a particular musical structure: "The so-called 'Neapolitan' or 'cantata' mass style also had much influence on 18th-century mass composition with its short sections set as self-contained solo arias and choruses in a variety of styles." (Wikipedia)
I know that she is asking about a specific compositional type or "structure." I only mentioned the parody nature of those Bach works because coincidentally they are derived from music for what he called a cantata. But Bach's own cantatas as well as the semi-masses derived from them and, as you imply, many of the 18th-century masses that are worth knowing also fulfill the description of a work as consisting of "sections set as self-contained solo arias and choruses in a variety of styles." Sorry for the confusion. The other reason I "deflected" to Bach is that, if dulcinea is serious about the quality aspect of her search, she should know about those works.

Cherubini wrote more than one mass that one can hear on YouTube. I knew nothing of these--the name just popped into my head as a likely candidate. So I listened to the Requiem, and I am rather taken with it. It is not a cantata mass, as it is entirely choral, but dulcinea might enjoy it. Then, some of our posters, including dulcinea, will remember that our late member Ralph Stein was obsessed with the music of Dittersdorf. He managed over a period of many years to make this both a running joke and a serious interest. When he died, I discovered that Dittersdorf had written a Requiem. At the time, there was no YouTube to post. Now there is more than one. It is to Mozart's Requiem what anything by Dittersdorf is to anything by Mozart, but it is a cantata mass.





(Edited to correct a spelling error.)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:10 pm

jbuck:
I could not finish the Cherubini; it was too monotonous. There is a reason why DvD and his contemporaries added solo sections to their choral works; his Requiem certainly has quite a bit of the gracefulness that makes the Classical period so endearing.
Speaking of Requiems, the music I want for my service is the Harmoniemesse, my favorite choral piece. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:46 pm

dulcinea wrote:jbuck:
I could not finish the Cherubini; it was too monotonous. There is a reason why DvD and his contemporaries added solo sections to their choral works; his Requiem certainly has quite a bit of the gracefulness that makes the Classical period so endearing.
Speaking of Requiems, the music I want for my service is the Harmoniemesse, my favorite choral piece. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Interesting. I find the Cherubini greatly the superior of the two compositions. Obviously, the cantata format inspired the very greatest masses written in the common practice era, which is to say in a few instances the greatest settings of the mass ever written period. Nevertheless, though I would not be present to enjoy it and am at the height of hubris even to suggest that anyone will even notice my passing, I would wish my exequies to be graced by Victoria's Requiem. At the offertory, the traditional spot for such a thing even in the 16th century, I would want this motet, whose text, set by several composers, could have been inspired by the death of a church musician.

My harp is turned into mourning,
and my organ into the voice of them that weep.
Spare me, Lord, for my days are nothing.


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by John F » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:02 am

Cherubini is one of the few composers Beethoven admired, especially the operas; Toscanini conducted one of the Requiems and his one symphony. A while back, Cherubini's string quartets were recorded, and I like them. But his style isn't as uninhibitedly dramatic as Beethoven's.
John Francis

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:10 am

John F wrote:Cherubini is one of the few composers Beethoven admired, especially the operas; Toscanini conducted one of the Requiems and his one symphony. A while back, Cherubini's string quartets were recorded, and I like them. But his style isn't as uninhibitedly dramatic as Beethoven's.
Back when I had LPs I had a CH setting of the Mass that included a quartet of soloists, and which was very grand; I wish I remembered which setting it was.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:00 pm

John Francis:
When I asked around for a fourth H to accompany Handel, Haydn, and Hildegard, someone suggested Hasse; thanks for introducing his Mass to me.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:05 am

I just listened to Opus 77 as I was watching a basketball competition; quite an interesting match.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:30 am

The Mass in d gives the quartet of soloists a lot to do; that is very good, since solo voices add a lot of color to choral pieces.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:00 am

The Kyrie of the Opus 111 is very emotive; does YouTube have the entire Mass?
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:54 pm

dulcinea wrote:John Francis:
When I asked around for a fourth H to accompany Handel, Haydn, and Hildegard, someone suggested Hasse; thanks for introducing his Mass to me.
Michael Haydn
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dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:00 am

How could I forget Beethoven's Opus 123? That piece certainly has many characteristics of the cantata Mass.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

jbuck919
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:53 am

dulcinea wrote:How could I forget Beethoven's Opus 123? That piece certainly has many characteristics of the cantata Mass.
As has been mentioned or implied several times before in this thread.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

dulcinea
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Re: Besides JS Bach, Mozart And Haydn, ...

Post by dulcinea » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:40 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
dulcinea wrote:How could I forget Beethoven's Opus 123? That piece certainly has many characteristics of the cantata Mass.
As has been mentioned or implied several times before in this thread.
I suffer Asperger's, so I'm usually totally oblivious to others.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!

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