The Golden Shower of Musicology

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BWV 1080
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The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:53 pm

Had to click on that, didnt you? Excellent takedown of these classical music has gone to hell in a handbasket whine pieces:

http://www.throwcase.com/2015/01/20/the ... usicology/
As a classical musician I have often had to grimace through many incarnations of the argument that classical music is elitist or dying or, most irritating of all, is now much worse than it used to be back in some perceived golden age from the past. These “ideas” have always annoyed me, because those who argue such things are often more keen to believe their pre-formed notions than understand facts. They are typically regurgitating some nonsense they have heard from a relative, or some tripe they saw being heavily implied on a cheap documentary, or most commonly, some flimsy propaganda they read on Slipped Disc...

jbuck919
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:23 pm

Chopin's famous definition of rubato is obviously impossible and cannot have been intended literally, and not even Bach always "trilled from the upper note." ("Trill" is a gross oversimplification of the complicated issue of ornamentation, and the true ornamental trills in pieces like the warhorse Toccata and Fugue in D minor are clearly intended to start on the main note.) What is true is that many performers get the ornamentation in Chopin wrong by, say, anticipating it instead of playing it on the beat.

We are stuck with never knowing how the great keyboard artists performed their own music. We are left with the fact that the music itself generally suggests its range of correct interpretation, and with the much more worrisome fact that centuries of performers have done their very best to subvert it.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

SONNET CLV
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by SONNET CLV » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:59 am

Interesting read, the above referenced article.

I will offer this:
jbuck919 wrote: We are stuck with never knowing how the great keyboard artists performed their own music. We are left with the fact that the music itself generally suggests its range of correct interpretation, and with the much more worrisome fact that centuries of performers have done their very best to subvert it.
We can assume, I assume, that "the great keyboard artists" (and string, brass, woodwind, et al performers) performed their own music with slight differentiations from performance to performance (or, as jbuck puts it: within "a range of correct interpretation") simply because human performers are not machines. A machine may be programmed to play a piece exactly the same way each and every time; but a real live human player is limited by his/her very humanness to variate things here and there from one performance to another. I mean, we listen to recordings of masters playing the same work at different times in their lives, in different venues, even from one day to the next, and note differences -- often profound differences (such as in Gould's interpretations of the Bach Goldberg) -- and realize the interpretation is still "correct". In fact, I believe many of us love music because it is not so mechanical that a piece we enjoy will always be exactly the same. (Recordings, unfortunately, have the ability to always be the same from one playing to the next. Still, even a change of audio playback equipment -- a higher quality CD deck, improved speakers, enhanced cabling -- can allow a listen to exact new details and effects. And because I value differences, I explore a wide range of recordings of works I love -- I must have fifty different Goldbergs in my collection! None of them are performed identically to another.)

jbuck is correct to assert "We are stuck with never knowing how the great keyboard artists performed their own music" to the degree that those folks were dead before recording, but we can know how fellows like Rachmaninoff (a "great keyboard artist," certainly) performed many of his own works. And the revelation is often startling when compared to other performers taking on those very works. It would be great to have recordings by Bach, Beethoven, and Chopin. But I would suggest that those composer/performers did not play even their own written works with an absolute sameness from performance to performance. Not only because such a thing is basically impossible on a sheer human level, but because as composers these men were obviously interested in creating music, and the very notion that they all experimented with the variation form informs us that they were open to hearing new variations. I certainly would not attend a Bach concert (with J.S. himself at the keyboard) expecting to hear him play his own Goldberg Variations in exactly the same way he did at a prior performance.

I wonder, too, what happens when the pianist injures a finger and that digit will not allow for the same pressure as usual without pain? Does such a physical problem alter one's peformance of a piece?

I wish we could know how the old masters heard their own music. But I even suspect that what they heard in their mind's ear was different from what they heard from their instrument or the orchestra. (And that even what the mind's ear heard one day differed on other days!) The more musicians involved, the greater the variation in a piece. If one pianist cannot play a piece in the "exact" way the composer conceived it, what happens when one hundred plus musicians in the symphony take over?

I'll remain committed to music, and to live performance, regardless of the variations in interpretative mannerisms. To my way of hearing and understanding music, such is an integral part of the experience of the art form itself. The human element is not a destroyer of music, but the real reason for its existence.

Thank you BWV 1080 and jbuck919 for your ruminations on this article and topic. Keep the music alive.

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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by John F » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:39 pm

I didn't think he was writing about Danae and Zeus. :D

Sorry, I think that piece is just a pile of invective for its own sake, attack rather than argument, and a waste of ink. The author, who hides behind the pseudonym "Throwcase," has written all kinds of frivolous stuff - see here:

http://www.throwcase.com/author/throwcase-2/

As for Clive Brown, he's not just a musicologist, he's a musician, and while I'm no friend of historically informed performance which he advocates, I agree with him that something vital has gone out of classical music performance in recent generations and needs to be recovered - if that's still possible:
Clive Brown wrote:If classical music is to regain its cultural significance, musicians must engage with it more courageously, learning once more to read between the lines of the score. Only then will they recapture the full measure of freshness, beauty and excitement that composers expected their notation to convey to skillful performers and, through them, to the listener.
https://theconversation.com/were-playin ... vise-36090
John Francis

maestrob
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by maestrob » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:39 am

JohnF:

Unfortunately, I think we will disagree about this for years to come. Yes, I listen to a lot of new or recent recordings, and I am happy with the best of what I hear. Sure, there are duds, but do you remember Bruno Walter's Brahms Symphonies (as compared to Solti?)? Looking at the past, we tend to remember the great performances and forget the weak ones. As a come scritto kind of guy, I tend to prefer current performance practice anyway, that's true, but listening to Alan Gilbert or before him Lorin Maazel on the NY Philharmonic's website, I've heard plenty of dud concerts mixed in with the good ones, and yet there are dozens of first-rate discs in my collection both live and studio-made (Pappano/Kaufmann in Aida), discs that give me that old-time thrill. I just watched the Tucker Opera Gala last night, and each singer was exciting to watch and listen to: judging from that performance, we are living in another golden age of singing.

The point I'm making is that I believe that we are living in an age of great music-making, and even though we may be pulled emotionally toward the great performances we first heard (or imprinted) of the core repertoire, performers today have the ability and talent to equal those older performances on a good night, and we should be happy that this is so.

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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by John F » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:50 pm

There's the potential for a philosophical discussion here, about whether the notes on the page exhaust the expressive potential of the music or even are a wholly sufficient embodiment of it, and anything other than a literal reading is illegitimate, as Stravinsky once said. But all performances that I and probably you would recognize as genuinely musical, depart from the notes on the page in one way or another. An absolutely rigid tempo, every f or p measuring precisely the same number of decibels, that kind of thing, would be come scritto carried to its logical conclusion, and if it's what you want, then yes, we not only disagree but we have no basis for discussion. But I don't believe it is what you want. I have to leave it at that and go to work, but if you like, we can pursue this further.
John Francis

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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:02 pm

There's a story about Toscanini that I hope is true, though I don't know for sure. Once he was rehearsing an orchestra and they could not get the pianississimo at the end of a movement down to the level he wanted. The concertmaster instructed the strings to lift their bows unperceivably off their instruments, at which point Toscanini was finally satisfied.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Lance
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by Lance » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:04 pm

I read the article in its entirety ... and think is much good in what was said. Performance practices change with time, of course. A good example is the music of Bach as performed in the days of 78s by such people as the Busch family. There are many performances much better than those recorded in the 1930s, still I chose to include one of Busch's Brandenburg Concertos, which contained some sloppy playing that would be most unacceptable today (Eskdale, trumpet, for example), but flutist Moÿse was exceptional in his execution. Also a piano was used as the continuo rather than the harpsichord (as played by Rudy Serkin), also considered unacceptable today.

We are guided by opinions of the so-called "critics," and those in the "know," many of whom are musicologists rather than performers and who, themselves, are guided by their own personal opinions, which people can heed or not.

With some knowledge of classical music, and those who have played an instrument will train their ears in what brings music to the heart, especially in the manner of what was on the printed page. After all, if one has over 150 "Emperor" concertos of Beethoven (like me), one can decide with some intelligence what makes the music speak in the interpretation ... and all these concertos are different in one manner or another.

I am sure there will be much conjecture about that article, but there was also some good reading and thought-provoking comments therein.
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John F
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by John F » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:53 pm

jbuck919 wrote:There's a story about Toscanini that I hope is true, though I don't know for sure. Once he was rehearsing an orchestra and they could not get the pianississimo at the end of a movement down to the level he wanted. The concertmaster instructed the strings to lift their bows unperceivably off their instruments, at which point Toscanini was finally satisfied.
I don't believe it. Toscanini's hearing was fine, unlike Furtwangler's which ebbed away in his last years. There are similar stories about players testing the conductor by not playing some of their notes, or playing other notes, to see if he would catch them, and these I believe. Even Reiner was victimized in this way by the Met orchestra; one of the players, something like the second heckelphone, played "Happy birthday to you" softly in the middle of a cacophonous passage in Elektra and got away with it.

But there's another Toscanini story, told by himself, which is relevant to the disagreement between maestrob and me. He was consulting Verdi before the premiere of the Four Sacred Pieces, and in one passage he made a rubato or ritenuto. Verdi immediately said, "Bravo the rubato!" Toscanini, much relieved, still pointed out that the nuance was not written in the score. Verdi replied that he didn't put it there because it would inevitably be exaggerated, but any true musician would feel the need for it and make it without having to be prompted by the text. What price literal adherence to the score when the composer himself says it's not how he wants his music performed? I'll have a similar example, with recorded examples, when/if I start a new thread on that topic.
John Francis

jbuck919
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:40 pm

John F wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:There's a story about Toscanini that I hope is true, though I don't know for sure. Once he was rehearsing an orchestra and they could not get the pianississimo at the end of a movement down to the level he wanted. The concertmaster instructed the strings to lift their bows unperceivably off their instruments, at which point Toscanini was finally satisfied.
I don't believe it. Toscanini's hearing was fine, unlike Furtwangler's which ebbed away in his last years. There are similar stories about players testing the conductor by not playing some of their notes, or playing other notes, to see if he would catch them, and these I believe. Even Reiner was victimized in this way by the Met orchestra; one of the players, something like the second heckelphone, played "Happy birthday to you" softly in the middle of a cacophonous passage in Elektra and got away with it.

But there's another Toscanini story, told by himself, which is relevant to the disagreement between maestrob and me. He was consulting Verdi before the premiere of the Four Sacred Pieces, and in one passage he made a rubato or ritenuto. Verdi immediately said, "Bravo the rubato!" Toscanini, much relieved, still pointed out that the nuance was not written in the score. Verdi replied that he didn't put it there because it would inevitably be exaggerated, but any true musician would feel the need for it and make it without having to be prompted by the text. What price literal adherence to the score when the composer himself says it's not how he wants his music performed? I'll have a similar example, with recorded examples, when/if I start a new thread on that topic.
I'm not so sure that the story has as much to do with Toscanini's hearing as with the mind supplying what the ear does note hear, a well-known phenomenon, but whatever the case, I look forward to your new thread. :)

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

John F
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by John F » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:50 pm

jbuck919 wrote:There's a story about Toscanini that I hope is true, though I don't know for sure. Once he was rehearsing an orchestra and they could not get the pianississimo at the end of a movement down to the level he wanted. The concertmaster instructed the strings to lift their bows unperceivably off their instruments, at which point Toscanini was finally satisfied... I'm not so sure that the story has as much to do with Toscanini's hearing as with the mind supplying what the ear does note hear, a well-known phenomenon.
But in this case, as you tell the story, he had specifically demanded that dynamic and would surely have been listening specifically for it to make sure it was played as he wished.

The story reminds me of a joke in the Hoffnung Festival's "Punkt Kontrapunkt," a quasi-Webern piece with "analysis" many times longer than the music. In it the commentator mentions that a note is to be played "quasi pensato." "They must not play the note, only think it. They can only think it because the note is not on the instrument."
John Francis

BWV 1080
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by BWV 1080 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:06 pm

John F wrote:I didn't think he was writing about Danae and Zeus. :D

Sorry, I think that piece is just a pile of invective for its own sake, attack rather than argument, and a waste of ink. The author, who hides behind the pseudonym "Throwcase," has written all kinds of frivolous stuff - see here:

http://www.throwcase.com/author/throwcase-2/

As for Clive Brown, he's not just a musicologist, he's a musician, and while I'm no friend of historically informed performance which he advocates, I agree with him that something vital has gone out of classical music performance in recent generations and needs to be recovered - if that's still possible:
Clive Brown wrote:If classical music is to regain its cultural significance, musicians must engage with it more courageously, learning once more to read between the lines of the score. Only then will they recapture the full measure of freshness, beauty and excitement that composers expected their notation to convey to skillful performers and, through them, to the listener.
https://theconversation.com/were-playin ... vise-36090
Sorry you dont really get to complain about invective in a response to Clive who leads off stating that current performing artists are playing the music all wrong and the only way they will regain their lost golden age is to do what he says. The golden shower invective is well deserved, he is a pretensious blowhard that deserves any mockery that comes his way

maestrob
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Re: The Golden Shower of Musicology

Post by maestrob » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:21 pm

I just finished listening to Tito Schipa singing various arias, and I must say that with all his distortions, Schipa blows me away with his virtuosity and vocal effects, which would never be allowed in a modern performance of this repertoire. I've stated elsewhere that of course it's possible to create an exciting, moving performance by adhering to the literal score, but Schipa's singing is outstandingly personal by taking full advantage of the very special qualities of his voice.

Uniquely beautiful, it's a lost art.

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