Your changing musical tastes

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Belle
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Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:31 pm

Writing about Schumann started me thinking about how my musical tastes have changed and evolved over the decades (sigh). The music which inspired me in my earlier decades now lies dormant in my brain and I seldom listen to it.

The Mozart Piano Concertos are no longer of interest - those and most of his symphonies. I loved these in my 30s, thinking Mozart was the genius supreme. Perhaps it was the film "Amadeus" which started me on this trajectory as I don't remember having any Mozart in my library prior to this; it was all mostly Beethoven. (My mother didn't have Mozart in her record collection either, come to think of it.) Anyway, I've given away my CDs of the Mozart Piano Concertos to people in our music group and I only have some choral works (never listen to these) and the late symphonies (always listen to these).

Chamber music remains a staple diet and that interest never wanes, no matter who the composer. That's strange, isn't it? Perhaps it's less 'idiomatic', for want of a better word, than other works. And I used to listen to the Tchaikovsky Symphonies and, apart from No. 6, they've gone the way of the Mozart PC. Beethoven Piano Sonatas, there from the very beginning, remain THE bedrock of my musical interest - despite my interest waning in symphonies 1, 5, 8 and 9.

I'm wondering what your changing tastes are and how all that has evolved. Perhaps your tastes have never changed and you remain true to the works you loved in earlier years.

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:04 pm

In my youth, I did not listen to much Mozart ; now I do ; used to listen to Beethoven symphonies ; now I do not ; dont listen to Chopin as much as I once did ; and listen to MUCH more chamber music than I did.Enjoy many " minor" composers often whom I never knew existed, eg. DuPont,Mompou,Feinbrg,Moeran.Never listened to Shostakovich or Sibelius earlier ; now listen t them a lot. Never drank Aussie shiraz before, now.....

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:33 pm

....cool aid?! :lol:

To what do you attribute, if anything, your changing tastes? I'm interested in your engagement with 'minor' composers and those heard less often. Do you feel that you've become 'exhausted' by the canon over the years and had to go in search of something different?

What do those 'minor' composers have to say that you find particularly interesting?

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:51 pm

My musical taste has enlarged over the decades, but it still stops at the waterline between classical music and pretty much everything else. Ever since I began listening with my brain as well as my senses and feelings, I've kept discovering new elements and qualities in old music. So very little has worn out its welcome for me, even music which my parents told me I loved as a 6-year-old such as Mozart's quartet for oboe and strings.

My father must have been a Mozartean because we had more of his music in the family record collection than any other composer's - at least until Pop acquired all of the Beethoven string quartets with the Budapest Quartet. My appreciation of Mozart's music, its emotional subtlety and depth (not just in the operas), has only grown and continues to grow. I suppose Belle has missed out on this or she wouldn't have given away her recordings of the Mozart concertos; she can't have grown out of them, to me that's inconceivable. The slow movements of the 21st and 27th concertos, though I know them by heart, still can bring tears to my eyes.

Though I listen to a good deal of new music, new to me or just plain new, and the repertoire of music I care about is always growing, I can't say my taste has actually changed in anything like the way Belle speaks of. I still love the music I've always loved, and while I've subjected myself to hard modernism from Schoenberg and Webern to Boulez, that hasn't made me care for it. The closest I've gotten is a few works by Berg, "Wozzeck" and the violin concerto above all. That those works "succeed" with me is an encouragement to keep trying in the hope, mostly vain, of finding more. It's that and a friend's gift of a CD that led me to the music of Schnittke, who I'd say is the Berg of our time. So I haven't given up yet.
John Francis

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:29 pm

Very enjoyable comments!!

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:12 am

Rach3, if you make it to Melbourne, we'll share a bottle or two of shiraz. I have many, many cases to get through, and need a little help! Oddly enough, the time most bottles get opened is when friends from the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra come over. My current favourite is Landhaus, which I get through the Wine Society at around $30 a bottle or even less. It is one of the wines used in Penfold's Grange Hermitage, Australia's most famous wine, which starts around $750 a bottle. I have never had a drop of Grange.
I have had Chateau Mouton Rothschild. I was in a holiday resort, working on an article, and the man at the next table bought a bottle to show off to his girlfriend. It was about $350, and this was in the 1980s. They left half of it, and when the waiter came to clear I asked if I could have it. He glowered, but obliged! To tell you the truth I like Landhaus better, and other fine Australian reds, but that's probably because my palate is accustomed to the bigger-bodied, robust Australian shiraz, which start big, have plenty of complexity, and linger on the palate.

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:25 am

My start in classical music was Schubert's fifth symphony. My grandmother played it to me as one of my earliest memories, and I constantly asked for it.
Like Rach3, I am mystified at your loss of enthusiasm for the Mozart piano concertos. They would be first into my desert island suitcase, probably with Murray Perahia if I had only one complete set. To Rach3's slow movements of 21 and 27, with which I entirely concur, I would add 9 and 20, but I find most of them utterly sublime.
Schubert also regularly brings tears to my eyes with a similar melancholy beauty. I got seriously interested in classical music at about 20, and have barely listened to much else since. My brother is a famous jazz musician in Australia, and I really tried to like it but at about 45 I decided I had only so many hours of listening left, and would spend it on what I loved, and learning new works in the arena I loved. I've never regretted that.
So I learned the mainstream repertoire first, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert, Haydn, Brahms, Schumann, Chopin, Liszt etc, and soon opera. I loved Tchaikovsky when I was younger, and an older colleague told me when I got older my tastes would mature and I wouldn't listen. He was right for a while, then wrong. In turn I became besotted with Mahler, Stravinsky and Shostakovich. Oddly, it took me a decade or two to appreciate Bach more - before that I listened mostly to the "pretty" works, like the Brandenburgs, violin concertos etc. Now, if I were interested in making such a claim (which I am not) I would probably name Bach as the greatest of all, but he is certainly not the most accessible. That is where people often go wrong with Mozart, seeing him as (merely) simple and tuneful.
I go to about a concert a week on average, mainly because as a former journalist on classical music I still get a large number of complimentary tickets. And I am deeply grateful for this privilege. But at home I listen mostly to chamber music, instrumental music, and lieder and opera.
Last edited by barney on Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:09 am

So I'm presuming that you still listen to Schubert's Symphony #5 after all these years?

I've gone on to other composers like Berg, Webern etc. and I've found it's hard to return, after that, to purely tonal music. Except baroque; that's a very special case.

I agree Bach was the greatest but that his music isn't 'easy'. Did you ever see the send-up of Bach's melismatic writing by Peter Ustinov? It's hilarious!! But Bach and Beethoven are both my go-to composers of all time, except I've heard those Beethoven symphonies I listed once too many and I never listen to the Brandenburgs for the same reason.

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:32 am

barney wrote:To Rach3's slow movements of 21 and 27, with which I entirely concur, I would add 9 and 20
<ahem>
John Francis

Ricordanza
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Ricordanza » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:21 am

When I first began to listen to classical music in my teens, Mozart and Haydn were not among my favorites. At the time, their music seemed to lack emotional content. My preference was for music that was passionate, or stirring, or mournful, or angry, etc.

I still have a strong connection to music with an emotional component, but I've come to appreciate Mozart and Haydn. Why the change? Clearly, there's emotion in many of the later Mozart piano concertos, even if he doesn't lay it on as thick as Mahler. I suppose I've also developed a greater appreciation for the "pure" musical content of Mozart as well as Haydn. In recent years, many fine live and recorded performances of Haydn's piano sonatas and late symphonies have awakened me to the greatness of this composer.

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:39 am

I do have enthusiasm for Haydn more and more these days, with a special fondness for the masses, The Seasons, The Creation and the piano sonatas. I've been to this very Schloss, just an hour by train from Vienna!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpSNMQZH9M

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:29 am

Years ago, Lincoln Center's Mostly Mozart Festival had an all-day Haydn marathon with H. C. Robbins Landon as host and commentator. At one point he said Haydn was the most intellectual composer of his time, a surprising statement about Papa Haydn the musical jokester, but if anyone was qualified to make such statements it was Landon. He didn't explain in what respect Haydn was musically intellectual at all, and since then I've thought about it a lot without finding an answer. Any ideas?
John Francis

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:34 am

barney wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:12 am
Rach3, if you make it to Melbourne, we'll share a bottle or two of shiraz. I have many, many cases to get through, and need a little help!
I'm always glad to help ! " I dont worry about being driven to drink , just being driven home." WC Fields.

Gave my son a bottle of Penfolds Bin 28 Kalimna Shiraz for Christmas couple years ago ; he advised one of the best wines he had. Not Penfolds Grange , of course. The Bin 28 runs about US$25-30 here.Courtesy of friends I've been fortunate to have a glass or two of Chateau Mouton,Chateau Lafite,Chateau Latour, a JJ Pruhm TBA,and a LaTache, but hardly my usual. I say, by way of excuse, anyone can choose a great bottle wine if they are willing to spend $$ ; what takes real skill is to find one at less the US$10.

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:52 am

Belle wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:33 pm
To what do you attribute, if anything, your changing tastes?
To some degree I suspect over-hearing the "canon" is a factor, but I still do hear, and enjoy the greats.More I think just realizing, discovering there is other music out there , as great or nearly as great as the canon, that does not get heard for some reason.These " minor " works appeal when I have the same or a similar intellectual and emotional response to them as I do to the canon works. Life would thus be poorer without them.I suspect ones intellectual and emotional sensitivity broadens as one ages, like good wine, at least until our dottage sets in. As time passes we also have more opportunities to listen. This am I listened to York Bowen's Piano Sonata # 2 , and some of the piano Preludes of Robert Casadesus.Neither will replace Chopin's 3rd Sonata or his Preludes,but both are hugely worthy of hearing, and help one enjoy the Chopin again when one listens to the Chopin.

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:57 am

John F wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:51 pm
The slow movements of the 21st and 27th concertos, though I know them by heart, still can bring tears to my eyes.
The 27th and 17th for me.The 27th I came to later in my life.Also , the slow mov. of his 3rd Violin Concerto.

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:56 am

Yes. My father bought the early LP with Jacques Thibaud as soloist - how did he know this was the one to have? - and I still think it's a particularly beautiful performance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSf5-e6drdA
John Francis

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:51 pm

JohnF wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:56 am
Yes. My father bought the early LP with Jacques Thibaud as soloist - how did he know this was the one to have? - and I still think it's a particularly beautiful performance.
Agreed, thanks.

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:05 pm

John F wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:29 am
Years ago, Lincoln Center's Mostly Mozart Festival had an all-day Haydn marathon with H. C. Robbins Landon as host and commentator. At one point he said Haydn was the most intellectual composer of his time, a surprising statement about Papa Haydn the musical jokester, but if anyone was qualified to make such statements it was Landon. He didn't explain in what respect Haydn was musically intellectual at all, and since then I've thought about it a lot without finding an answer. Any ideas?
I have actually heard that comment about Haydn too - probably in a documentary with Robbie Landon. Off the top of my head I'm thinking it has something to do with the lack of emotion, the cool-headedness and restraint of Haydn. Think "Palindrome". Anyway, you have aroused my curiosity to read further on this subject and I'll buy a book by HC and get to the gist of it.

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:20 pm

John F wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:32 am
barney wrote:To Rach3's slow movements of 21 and 27, with which I entirely concur, I would add 9 and 20
<ahem>
Oh dear. Sincere apologies. I should have known it was your impeccable taste, John (mops brow, and wonders if that's enough to get me out of that solecism).

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:28 pm

Rach3 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:34 am
barney wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:12 am
Rach3, if you make it to Melbourne, we'll share a bottle or two of shiraz. I have many, many cases to get through, and need a little help!
I'm always glad to help ! " I dont worry about being driven to drink , just being driven home." WC Fields.

Gave my son a bottle of Penfolds Bin 28 Kalimna Shiraz for Christmas couple years ago ; he advised one of the best wines he had. Not Penfolds Grange , of course. The Bin 28 runs about US$25-30 here.Courtesy of friends I've been fortunate to have a glass or two of Chateau Mouton,Chateau Lafite,Chateau Latour, a JJ Pruhm TBA,and a LaTache, but hardly my usual. I say, by way of excuse, anyone can choose a great bottle wine if they are willing to spend $$ ; what takes real skill is to find one at less the US$10.
Not too bad a price for Bin 28, which I agree is a very nice drop indeed. I tend to favour South Australian wines. A tip: keep an eye out for Coonawarra region wines, a 60km strip with famous terra rossa soil. No bad wine has ever come out of there to my knowledge, mostly very good and some quite outstanding. Wynn's is one of the labels who you might find from there. Brands, Bowen, Hollick are others. Look here: https://coonawarra.org/wineries/

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:31 pm

Belle wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:39 am
I do have enthusiasm for Haydn more and more these days, with a special fondness for the masses, The Seasons, The Creation and the piano sonatas. I've been to this very Schloss, just an hour by train from Vienna!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpSNMQZH9M
To which I add the piano trios and string quartets. The trios are unjustly neglected, while the quartets are often confined to a dozen of the best known.
I visited Eisenstadt this year. Magnificent salon and a really fine pair of museums at the palace and the Haydn house.

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:35 pm

Rach3 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:52 am
Belle wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:33 pm
To what do you attribute, if anything, your changing tastes?
To some degree I suspect over-hearing the "canon" is a factor, but I still do hear, and enjoy the greats.More I think just realizing, discovering there is other music out there , as great or nearly as great as the canon, that does not get heard for some reason.These " minor " works appeal when I have the same or a similar intellectual and emotional response to them as I do to the canon works. Life would thus be poorer without them.I suspect ones intellectual and emotional sensitivity broadens as one ages, like good wine, at least until our dottage sets in. As time passes we also have more opportunities to listen. This am I listened to York Bowen's Piano Sonata # 2 , and some of the piano Preludes of Robert Casadesus.Neither will replace Chopin's 3rd Sonata or his Preludes,but both are hugely worthy of hearing, and help one enjoy the Chopin again when one listens to the Chopin.
For me, the most moving Chopin is the nocturnes, to which I turn again and again. And one of the things that helped me appreciate them even more about 20 years ago was coming across the nocturnes by John Field, many of which are very fine - but they're not Chopin. I also agree that time is essential to develop a palate, if I can use that metaphor, and allow an understanding of context.

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:06 pm

barney wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:28 pm
A tip: keep an eye out for Coonawarra region wines, a 60km strip with famous terra rossa soil. No bad wine has ever come out of there to my knowledge, mostly very good and some quite outstanding.
Many thanks for the tip and link. Unfortunately,it does not appear any Coonawarra are available here locally, but I shall look next time I'm in Chicago, only 3 hours drive from here.

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:07 pm

Belle wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:05 pm
I have actually heard that comment about Haydn too - probably in a documentary with Robbie Landon. Off the top of my head I'm thinking it has something to do with the lack of emotion, the cool-headedness and restraint of Haydn. Think "Palindrome".
Surely not. The Sturm und Drang symphonies of Haydn's middle period are as emotional as any music of the period. For example, No. 39 in G minor knocked me over the first time I heard it, and it still does.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb--y2XC3Ls

Who says intellectuals are cool-headed and lack emotion? Check out Noam Chomsky. :mrgreen:

On reflection, maybe it has to do with Haydn's string quartets from op. 33 on. Haydn said that op. 33 was written in "a new and special manner." That manner involved independent parts for all four instruments, compared with the simpler textures of earlier quartets by Haydn and others. In effect Haydn's style at least in the string quartets became essentially contrapuntal without being "learned." And I suppose counterpoint is generally considered the most intellectual technical element of music.

And then there are movements like the menuetto of op. 76 no. 2, a canon:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6KuI81BoOY
John Francis

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:45 am

As I said, "off the top of my head". Anyway, I've just looked at Rosen and he has interesting things to say about Haydn's intellectuality, though he does say his works were 'patchy' in this and other musical respects and not a consistent whole. I think some of the thinking about intellectuality stems from those long, isolated years at Esterhazy where he admitted in letters he was 'glad to be left alone' to get on with the job. This forced him to be experimental and highly original.

Changing the topic: today in our music group "the Professor" (I've told you about him before) ran us through Music and Drama: Berlioz and Britten. "The Trojans" and "Peter Grimes". It was fascinating as I didn't know either work. I've always regarded Berlioz as over the top. Apparently the composer didn't see a full performance of the opera in his lifetime. Anyway, the Professor used the John Eliot Gardiner production from France circa 2009.

I feel that I could explore "The Trojans" after today's program but, to be honest, I prefer the refinement of Italian baroque opera to anything from the 19th century.

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:50 am

barney wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:31 pm
Belle wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:39 am
I do have enthusiasm for Haydn more and more these days, with a special fondness for the masses, The Seasons, The Creation and the piano sonatas. I've been to this very Schloss, just an hour by train from Vienna!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpSNMQZH9M
To which I add the piano trios and string quartets. The trios are unjustly neglected, while the quartets are often confined to a dozen of the best known.
I visited Eisenstadt this year. Magnificent salon and a really fine pair of museums at the palace and the Haydn house.
That little railway station at Eisenstadt is so cute; sitting in there waiting for the train back to Vienna I contemplated the people walking about the streets (with their Aldi shopping bags - very fashionable Barney!!!) wondering if they knew the real musical importance of their little town!! Last time we walked up to the Schloss Esterhazy from the railway station a dead body was being removed from an apartment nearby and we had to cross the street to avoid that horror!! Put me off for the rest of the day.

I've heard it said about the Haydn trios that these are really 'accompanied' piano works!! There's some truth to that if you listen to the arrangement of the parts and compare them with Mozart and Beethoven.

lennygoran
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by lennygoran » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:09 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:45 am

I feel that I could explore "The Trojans" after today's program but, to be honest, I prefer the refinement of Italian baroque opera to anything from the 19th century.
Belle I love this work-fantastic music! Grimes isn't chopped liver either! Regards, Len :lol:

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:08 am

Belle wrote:his works were 'patchy' in this and other musical respects and not a consistent whole.
That's part of Haydn's charm. You could say that the first movement of the 80th symphony is inconsistent - it certainly is - but I think it's cool. What was he thinking? And then there's the finale - where's the beat?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1zBW5Qo4p8&t=47s
John Francis

maestrob
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by maestrob » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:33 am

To get back to the original topic: I used to fall in love with whatever music I was working on (when I was performing), whether it was studying the role of Scarpia in Tosca at Juilliard in class with Vincent La Selva, performing the Bach B Minor Mass in Carnegie Hall with David Randolph, or reading the score of Brahms's Double Concerto when I was 11, the first full score in my library.

I fell in love with orchestral music when I was very young (Toscanini's Beethoven & Brahms, Ormandy's Rachmaninoff & Tchaikovsky) I knew when I was 5 years old, as well as the Debussy Quartet and Beethoven's Opus 18 set, among others. I learned to read piano music by the time I was 7 or 8, and won a talent contest in my school playing Liszt and Mendelssohn when I was 11. Heard Guiomar Novaes in concert when I was 11, but realized at an early age that I lacked the reflexes to be really good at playing piano, so vowed to be a conductor when I was in my early teens.

Have always been in love with orchestral and piano music, as well as operas, which I began to learn when I was in my teens. I learned the canon (from Bach through Shostakovich) by the time I was in my early twenties, and have continued to explore quality performances since then. That said, there are still holes in my knowledge, and I continue to look forward to exploring them here.

As for changing tastes, the HIP movement has opened my ears considerably, and improved the listening experience no end. In that field, some conductors are better than others, so I listen quite a bit to Trevor Pinnock, as well as van Immerseel and Franz Bruggen among others.

To sum up, my tastes have evolved and broadened over the years, but I still listen to Toscanini's Beethoven once per year, just to keep in touch with what started it all!

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:49 am

John F wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:07 pm
Surely not. The Sturm und Drang symphonies of Haydn's middle period are as emotional as any music of the period. For example, No. 39 in G minor knocked me over the first time I heard it, and it still does.
Thanks, very nice, perhaps my first hearing, probably one of the few Haydn symphonies I'd seek out to hear.Wonder if the work influenced Mozart's own two G minors ?

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:07 am

It could be. Wikipedia says, "The work was influential and inspired later G minor symphonies by Johann Christian Bach (Op. 6, No. 6) and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (No. 25)." How, exactly? At the time (1765) Haydn was composing exclusively for Prince Esterhazy and therefore none of his works could be published. Also, Mozart was 9 years old in 1765, and his 25th symphony came 8 years later. On the other hand, the Mozarts' neighbor in Salzburg was Haydn's brother Michael who might have been receiving copies of some of Haydn's music. My guess is that rather than direct influence by a particular symphony, Mozart found the Sturm und Drang appealing and exploited it in his own way in this one symphony. The later G minor symphony is another matter altogether.
John Francis

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:54 pm

lennygoran wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:09 am
Belle wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:45 am

I feel that I could explore "The Trojans" after today's program but, to be honest, I prefer the refinement of Italian baroque opera to anything from the 19th century.
Belle I love this work-fantastic music! Grimes isn't chopped liver either! Regards, Len :lol:
I'm trying to give that up!! :mrgreen:

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:57 pm

maestrob wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:33 am
To get back to the original topic: I used to fall in love with whatever music I was working on (when I was performing), whether it was studying the role of Scarpia in Tosca at Juilliard in class with Vincent La Selva, performing the Bach B Minor Mass in Carnegie Hall with David Randolph, or reading the score of Brahms's Double Concerto when I was 11, the first full score in my library.

I fell in love with orchestral music when I was very young (Toscanini's Beethoven & Brahms, Ormandy's Rachmaninoff & Tchaikovsky) I knew when I was 5 years old, as well as the Debussy Quartet and Beethoven's Opus 18 set, among others. I learned to read piano music by the time I was 7 or 8, and won a talent contest in my school playing Liszt and Mendelssohn when I was 11. Heard Guiomar Novaes in concert when I was 11, but realized at an early age that I lacked the reflexes to be really good at playing piano, so vowed to be a conductor when I was in my early teens.

Have always been in love with orchestral and piano music, as well as operas, which I began to learn when I was in my teens. I learned the canon (from Bach through Shostakovich) by the time I was in my early twenties, and have continued to explore quality performances since then. That said, there are still holes in my knowledge, and I continue to look forward to exploring them here.

As for changing tastes, the HIP movement has opened my ears considerably, and improved the listening experience no end. In that field, some conductors are better than others, so I listen quite a bit to Trevor Pinnock, as well as van Immerseel and Franz Bruggen among others.

To sum up, my tastes have evolved and broadened over the years, but I still listen to Toscanini's Beethoven once per year, just to keep in touch with what started it all!
What a rich and interesting musical life; thanks for the sharing of it. I agree about HIP; it provided 'new' ears and a different way of thinking about old music. The clarity of texture is what I love so much so, yes, I forgot about the important influence of HIP in my musical evolution. At this stage I never listen, for example, to Klemperer and his leaden readings of many symphonies, particularly Beethoven.

lennygoran
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by lennygoran » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:36 pm

Belle wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:54 pm
I'm trying to give that up!! :mrgreen:
Only give that up if you're upgrading to Foie gras! Regards, Len :lol:

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:46 pm

Good on you, Brian. I like the idea of an annual homage to what started it all. I should do the same.

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:49 pm

I got to know the Beethoven symphonies through Klemperer. I agree they sound even slower this side of HIP, and were slow even then, but I prefer to call it "magisterial" than "leaden". :D I haven't played those for years, partly because my turntable is covered foot deep in piles of CDs.
But I too enjoy the transparency that HIP brought. It was often too fussy and dogmatic in the 80s, but now everyone has taken lessons from its insights.

maestrob
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by maestrob » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:55 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:57 pm
maestrob wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:33 am
To get back to the original topic: I used to fall in love with whatever music I was working on (when I was performing), whether it was studying the role of Scarpia in Tosca at Juilliard in class with Vincent La Selva, performing the Bach B Minor Mass in Carnegie Hall with David Randolph, or reading the score of Brahms's Double Concerto when I was 11, the first full score in my library.

I fell in love with orchestral music when I was very young (Toscanini's Beethoven & Brahms, Ormandy's Rachmaninoff & Tchaikovsky) I knew when I was 5 years old, as well as the Debussy Quartet and Beethoven's Opus 18 set, among others. I learned to read piano music by the time I was 7 or 8, and won a talent contest in my school playing Liszt and Mendelssohn when I was 11. Heard Guiomar Novaes in concert when I was 11, but realized at an early age that I lacked the reflexes to be really good at playing piano, so vowed to be a conductor when I was in my early teens.

Have always been in love with orchestral and piano music, as well as operas, which I began to learn when I was in my teens. I learned the canon (from Bach through Shostakovich) by the time I was in my early twenties, and have continued to explore quality performances since then. That said, there are still holes in my knowledge, and I continue to look forward to exploring them here.

As for changing tastes, the HIP movement has opened my ears considerably, and improved the listening experience no end. In that field, some conductors are better than others, so I listen quite a bit to Trevor Pinnock, as well as van Immerseel and Franz Bruggen among others.

To sum up, my tastes have evolved and broadened over the years, but I still listen to Toscanini's Beethoven once per year, just to keep in touch with what started it all!
What a rich and interesting musical life; thanks for the sharing of it. I agree about HIP; it provided 'new' ears and a different way of thinking about old music. The clarity of texture is what I love so much so, yes, I forgot about the important influence of HIP in my musical evolution. At this stage I never listen, for example, to Klemperer and his leaden readings of many symphonies, particularly Beethoven.
Thanks for noticing! In all the hubbub, since we're talking about my life now, I guess I should mention that after six years' training at Juilliard in conducting orchestral and operatic repertoire with Vincent La Selva, (He sang tenor and I sang baritone roles!), my wife and I produced and conducted 95 programs culminating in an annual vocal competition with cash prizes for recent conservatory graduates here in NYC. Out of that total, 36 concerts were gives in Carnegie Hall over a 7-year span. We placed three singers with the MET, a round dozen with City Opera, several in Germany and even one in Bayreuth! Luckily, I have eight CDs worth of repertoire that I prepared and conducted in these concerts as souvenirs of one of the most fulfilling times in my life. We had from 2-4 Metropolitan Opera artists as judges on our Advisory Panel, including singers and assistant conductors and even a stage director, plus others from NYCO and other professionals. My lead pianist was Gergiev's assistant at the Maryinski Theatre before she emigrated here and was sponsored by Igor Kipnis.

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:26 am

With that kind of musical pedigree I'm sure you're justifiably proud, together with your wife. What an honour to have even enrolled at Juilliard, let alone to have graduated - and then some. I'm more than impressed. Some people talk the talk but others, like yourself, walk the walk!! Those are big names, right there, in your cohort.

My husband and I were on a streetcar in Vienna in 2011 - just a little one for the inner city. A handsome man was standing near us and I started talking to him; his English was impeccable. Seems he was a 'freelance opera director' who produced for Bregenz and other festivals. We got off at the same stop and, when we parted company, I turned to my husband and said, "only in Vienna would we meet such a person on a street car"!!! (Perhaps in NYC too, but the chances of meeting one out of the 8.5 million would be remote.) And, would you believe it, later that day we met up with him again at our U-Bahn stop at Margaretengürtel . He was standing at the top of the stairs waiting for somebody.

barney
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by barney » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:36 am

I walk the walk, Sue. Just in my case, it's more of a waddle. :lol:

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:52 am

barney wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:36 am
I walk the walk, Sue. Just in my case, it's more of a waddle. :lol:
Yes, of course, as many people do here on CMG. I was also referring more generally with my comment - and that applies equally outside music as well.

(The wind is absolutely roaring here - at least 100kph - and terribly hot. Early September!!) Time for Chopin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJMIIxm1bGo

maestrob
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by maestrob » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:32 am

Belle wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:26 am
With that kind of musical pedigree I'm sure you're justifiably proud, together with your wife. What an honour to have even enrolled at Juilliard, let alone to have graduated - and then some. I'm more than impressed. Some people talk the talk but others, like yourself, walk the walk!! Those are big names, right there, in your cohort.

My husband and I were on a streetcar in Vienna in 2011 - just a little one for the inner city. A handsome man was standing near us and I started talking to him; his English was impeccable. Seems he was a 'freelance opera director' who produced for Bregenz and other festivals. We got off at the same stop and, when we parted company, I turned to my husband and said, "only in Vienna would we meet such a person on a street car"!!! (Perhaps in NYC too, but the chances of meeting one out of the 8.5 million would be remote.) And, would you believe it, later that day we met up with him again at our U-Bahn stop at Margaretengürtel . He was standing at the top of the stairs waiting for somebody.
Oh, my! I seem to have caused a wrong impression. Just for the record, Belle, I studied conducting at Juilliard night school for six years with La Selva, learning how to conduct and prepare both orchestral and operatic repertoire, for credit, but I do not have enough credits to qualify for a degree per se. As a musician & voice teacher, much like Robert Shaw, I am self-taught. The classes were with singers and piano; I have never actually stood in front of an orchestra. My sleep disorder stopped my career from continuing, and I was forced to retire from all activities when I was quite young (52) before I could complete my studies and actually found an orchestra.

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:06 pm

Sergei Babayan, pianist ( and Trifonov's mentor ),Verbier Festival Orchestra,Gabor Takacs-Nagy play Mozart’s PC # 9, K.271, “Jeunehomme” , at 2019 Verbier Festival ; extraordinary:

https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/gabor ... n-d-major/

Free VOD.

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:57 pm

Rach3 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:06 pm
Sergei Babayan, pianist ( and Trifonov's mentor ),Verbier Festival Orchestra,Gabor Takacs-Nagy play Mozart’s PC # 9, K.271, “Jeunehomme”
The concerto has been known by that nickname for a long time, but it's a mistake. Mozart composed it for Mlle. Victoire Jenamy, This from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:The work has long been known as the Jeunehomme Concerto. Théodore de Wyzéwa and Georges de Saint-Foix claimed that Mozart wrote the piece for an unnamed French pianist 'Jeunehomme' (French for "young man") visiting Salzburg. This name for the dedicatee is incorrect; in 2004 Michael Lorenz demonstrated that the dedicatee was actually Victoire Jenamy (1749–1812), a daughter of Jean-Georges Noverre, a dancer who was one of Mozart's friends.[8] Mozart had made Victoire Jenamy's acquaintance during his stay in Vienna in 1773.
John Francis

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:19 pm

maestrob wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:32 am
Belle wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:26 am
With that kind of musical pedigree I'm sure you're justifiably proud, together with your wife. What an honour to have even enrolled at Juilliard, let alone to have graduated - and then some. I'm more than impressed. Some people talk the talk but others, like yourself, walk the walk!! Those are big names, right there, in your cohort.

My husband and I were on a streetcar in Vienna in 2011 - just a little one for the inner city. A handsome man was standing near us and I started talking to him; his English was impeccable. Seems he was a 'freelance opera director' who produced for Bregenz and other festivals. We got off at the same stop and, when we parted company, I turned to my husband and said, "only in Vienna would we meet such a person on a street car"!!! (Perhaps in NYC too, but the chances of meeting one out of the 8.5 million would be remote.) And, would you believe it, later that day we met up with him again at our U-Bahn stop at Margaretengürtel . He was standing at the top of the stairs waiting for somebody.
Oh, my! I seem to have caused a wrong impression. Just for the record, Belle, I studied conducting at Juilliard night school for six years with La Selva, learning how to conduct and prepare both orchestral and operatic repertoire, for credit, but I do not have enough credits to qualify for a degree per se. As a musician & voice teacher, much like Robert Shaw, I am self-taught. The classes were with singers and piano; I have never actually stood in front of an orchestra. My sleep disorder stopped my career from continuing, and I was forced to retire from all activities when I was quite young (52) before I could complete my studies and actually found an orchestra.
You studied at Juilliard - day or night, it makes no difference to me!! Well done. (I presume you're talking about Narcolepsy, as the sleep disorder?)

Rach3
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Rach3 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:06 pm

John F wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:57 pm
The concerto has been known by that nickname for a long time, but it's a mistake. Mozart composed it for Mlle. Victoire Jenamy, This from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:The work has long been known as the Jeunehomme Concerto. Théodore de Wyzéwa and Georges de Saint-Foix claimed that Mozart wrote the piece for an unnamed French pianist 'Jeunehomme' (French for "young man") visiting Salzburg. This name for the dedicatee is incorrect; in 2004 Michael Lorenz demonstrated that the dedicatee was actually Victoire Jenamy (1749–1812), a daughter of Jean-Georges Noverre, a dancer who was one of Mozart's friends.[8] Mozart had made Victoire Jenamy's acquaintance during his stay in Vienna in 1773.
Yes, the Verbier site and programme call it “Jenamy” with the other in parentheses as “aka”. To me it’s just the “271.”

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:34 pm

Also, maestrob, for what it's worth - Carlos Kleiber was largely 'self taught' too!!

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:35 pm

Rach3 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:06 pm
Sergei Babayan, pianist ( and Trifonov's mentor ),Verbier Festival Orchestra,Gabor Takacs-Nagy play Mozart’s PC # 9, K.271, “Jeunehomme” , at 2019 Verbier Festival ; extraordinary:

https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/gabor ... n-d-major/

Free VOD.
I really like Babayan, thinking him a fine and energetic player. I like his 'attack', if that makes sense.

Brahms Symphony #2: I love it and always think of Carlos Kleiber when I hear it. (We just passed the 15th anniversary of his death in July, incredible as that is to believe.)

John F
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by John F » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 am

There's a fine analysis of Brahms Symphony no. 2 in the BBC Radio series "Discovering Music," which told me things about the music that I hadn't suspected. If you're interested, it's here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p01yx0hn
John Francis

maestrob
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by maestrob » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:16 am

Belle wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:34 pm
Also, maestrob, for what it's worth - Carlos Kleiber was largely 'self taught' too!!
Thanks, Belle! For the record, I graduated from Villanova University with a degree in Modern Languages and a double major (Education/French, with Russian as my minor) before moving to Manhattan in 1973. This means that I am licensed to teach K-12 in all 50 states. That degree sure came in handy when coaching singers for my competition, although I never held an official teaching position. Continuous learning has been a hallmark of my life and is what draws me to this excellent forum!

Belle
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Re: Your changing musical tastes

Post by Belle » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:04 pm

John F wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:31 am
There's a fine analysis of Brahms Symphony no. 2 in the BBC Radio series "Discovering Music," which told me things about the music that I hadn't suspected. If you're interested, it's here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p01yx0hn
Thanks for this; up at 5am today and listening now. Nice and loud an the otherwise empty house. Love Johnson's description of Brahms and his 'Old Testament-prophet beard'!! Delicious use of the English language!!

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