Politics and the forum

[Madame]

BZ Writes:

I think it should be pointed out that Corlyss agreed to take on the responsibility of this board after a series of other boards that we posted on shut down.

Spoken like the true blue lapdog you are Barry and since I agree with you to the nth degree my only question is who are you trying to convince?

With her accusations of “Jews slandering the Christians” Elise proves that she is beyond reason as is anyone who has a problem with the way Corlyss holds things together here.

You can preach to the choir if you like, but it seems to me like the majority of us are of one voice when it comes to CD

Agreed, Ted, but I think it's important to stand and be counted every so often, not to convince the Elise's, but to remind Corlyss. And I have a reason for saying this.

As you know, I'm kinda 'old' And I live in a large 55+ community in which some people give hours of their time to make this a great place to be. I give about 3 days a month to do the monthly newsletter, it's work, but a labor of love. I gave it up for a year for a variety of reasons, and during that time they went through editor after editor (now I know why). They begged me to take it on this summer, so I put out the July issue, far better than anything they had during the year -- and the criticisms started immediately. I finally advertised for some help, thanking people for their suggestions and giving them a chance to get into the fun world of desktop publishing and putting their personal touch on the newsletter. I told them they'd need a computer, word processor (MS Word), a printer, and email - and MS Publisher, the Print Shop software, and graphics experience would be a plus. Must be available 20-22th of the month. If they were interested, give me a call, and we'd talk.

It's been 10 days now, guess how many calls I got? This issue was as close to perfect as it could be -- guess how many calls I got saying thanks? Or even that it was good?

I did get a call with some suggestions -- I do welcome that, by the way.

But this sort of thing keeps me going -- within a day after I agreed to pick it up again, I found a beautiful hand-made greeting card on my porch. It said: Nothing pleases me better than to hear that you will be doing our newsletter once again. I have really missed your professional way of presenting it. My welcome prayers will be for you and your good health. God bless. Love, Helen. I keep it on my computer desk.

[Ted]

Madame Writes:

As you know, I'm kinda 'old' And I live in a large 55+ community

I'm two years over the 55+ designation, but as you know those numbers are largely artificial markers

I found a beautiful hand-made greeting card on my porch. It said: Nothing pleases me better than to hear that you will be doing our newsletter once again. I have really missed your professional way of presenting it. My welcome prayers will be for you and your good health. God bless. Love, Helen. I keep it on my computer desk.

I can feel the smile... that beam of white positive energy you felt when you read that card….nice

[DavidRoss]

I've noticed, here and elsewhere, that to the deranged their views seem normal, whereas sanity seems more than a little cockeyed.

There's nothing new in this phenomenon. For instance, several decades ago mass insanity was so rampant in Great Britain that the Liberal government actually believed their wishful thinking that Hitler's arms buildup was nothing to worry about--even to the point of ridiculing clear-eyed professionals like Churchill who expressed grave concern about the threat.

[Madame]

Madame Writes:

As you know, I'm kinda 'old' And I live in a large 55+ community

I'm two years over the 55+ designation, but as you know those numbers are largely artificial markers

You are so right. Cut-off points for getting discounts, etc . Age has a lot to do with unshed baggage ... dropping it is rejuvenating.

I can feel the smile... that beam of white positive energy you felt when you read that card….nice

Even more than that, a lump in the throat and a puddling of the eyes. I like the word 'white' -- years ago when my daughter moved into a small cottage, the landlady put a 'white light' of protection around it, and I could feel it.

[Ted]

the landlady put a 'white light' of protection around it, and I could feel it.

Absolutely a real thing

[Chalkperson]

But there again, I don't go around toadying up to Management in the sycophantic manner many of you lot do.
Sapphire

Gratitude is now called Toady/Sycophancy is it, how about the fact that Classical Music is what brought us all together, and that we are grateful to Lance and Corlyss for providing this forum, you are arguing with Americans who have a different culture/way of living/different libel laws etc and use less 'swear' words than Brits and get upset if someone does...i've been here twenty years and I still have to say that British people swear a f**k of a lot, it get's a laugh but also distain...listen up Sapphire, if you want British people saying nice things about British people then go to a British Classical Music Chat Board...and when you find one that is as easy to use, friendly, informative and entertaining etc as this one we will all move over to it, I remember your Music posts, I found them interesting, and I miss them, get off your soap box in Speakers Corner and write about music again, it's much more interesting and far more palitable than your Catholic vs Jewish People rants...chalkie

[Madame]

I've noticed, here and elsewhere, that to the deranged their views seem normal, whereas sanity seems more than a little cockeyed.

There's nothing new in this phenomenon. For instance, several decades ago mass insanity was so rampant in Great Britain that the Liberal government actually believed their wishful thinking that Hitler's arms buildup was nothing to worry about--even to the point of ridiculing clear-eyed professionals like Churchill who expressed grave concern about the threat.

Yeah, the game is to make people think they're just being paranoid, and therefore crazy -- right before they do 'em in

[Barry]

BZ Writes:

I think it should be pointed out that Corlyss agreed to take on the responsibility of this board after a series of other boards that we posted on shut down.

Spoken like the true blue lapdog you are Barry and since I agree with you to the nth degree my only question is who are you trying to convince?

With her accusations of “Jews slandering the Christians” Elise proves that she is beyond reason as is anyone who has a problem with the way Corlyss holds things together here.

You can preach to the choir if you like, but it seems to me like the majority of us are of one voice when it comes to CD

You're right, Ted. There have been a few who didn't like Corlyss' management style that left the board, and it was of course their right to do so. There are so many options out here, virtually no matter what one's interest, that there is no reason for anyone to settle for a chat community that they aren't comfortable in.

[piston]

I notice, skimming through the pages of threads here about various issues, that most people seem rather insane here, or at least that is how it appears to me from my admittedly rather casual perusal of the threads.

I was wondering, is this because

a) classical music listeners are generally more insane than the population as a whole, perhaps because of some correlation between musical taste and income, in combination with a correlation between income and insanity

b) the forum-membership is mostly insane, and as we know insane people are generally more crazy than others, certainly more crazy than sane people,

c) or what?

I find the views expressed here sometimes quite insane. (I shan't mention any particular posts, threads or posters because I don't want to get into any debates about the insane issues themselves.)

None of the above (a, b, or c). We are not a.) the folks across the Channel who argue and belittle for the sake of confirming their own superiority complex and to the extent of committing collective suicide; b. the folks in Scandinavia who create an international classical music website but never actually contribute a post because they're observing/lurking on other people's posts; and, c., folks from the "Isles" whose acceptable aesthetic interests range from Haydn to Wagner and where you have to wait twenty-four hours before your post actually appears (I call it the "mule jenny site"). Admit it! You like this insanity because it's so .... democratic?

[Madame]

the landlady put a 'white light' of protection around it, and I could feel it.

Absolutely a real thing

[absinthe]

I reckon it's: c) or what?

That sums up what I perceive of the mentality here.

(I sometimes look around me during my day in actuality and think 'If what I see is 'normal' then I'm glad I'm weird'. Most people I meet have done absolutely nothing with their lives except go to work so they can transfer the contents of supermarkets and malls to their dwellings and allowed themselves to be conned into thinking 'that's real purpose'; and having two cars makes them twice as happy as having one, etc! Most of em spend their evenings slumped in front of the telly soaking up whatever old dross is served up, usually soaps and reality(?!)TV. Sad, really but it's normal.)
.

[Sapphire]

Maybe you and Homo hubris need to follow Rod Corkin's and Robert Newman's lead.

I heard of Rod Corkin here. Not Robert Newman. Unless it bores you to tell the story again, I'd be interested.

Not heard of Robert Newman? Where’ve you been, my life? He’s the Cooler King of Classical Music Forums. He’s been banned from more Forums than some of the old trouts on here have probably had face lifts. It’s his hobby going around music Forums posting his pseudo reseach material with a strong conviction that Mozart and Haydn were complete charlatans who didn’t compose a thing, arguing that that it was all bought-in material supplied by others including in particular Andrea Luchesi, Kapellmeister of the Bonn Chapel in Beethoven’s time. Newman has been on all the main Forums except, rather oddly, GMG. He was banned from CMG in September 2006, then went to Talk-Classical. He is now on Corkin's site called Classical Music Mayhem, a very apt name.

..................

Elise, if you're still with us - having confused this thread's theme with your usual anti-semitic ravings - I trust that when you reach my stage of near-senility, your house will be in as good order as I consider mine to be. It certainly needs cleaning up at this point. Werner

Yes, as you can see, I'm still with you, but I sense the knives are being sharpened. While I have the chance, may I say there you go again, Werner, wrongly brandishing the emotive “anti-Semitic” card each time someone like me calls into question the bigoted comments by certain Jewish elements on this Board about aspects of other religions and nationalities. I’m still appalled at the one a few weeks ago (which I can tell you has actually triggered all of my recent comments) suggesting that many English people during WWII were so anti-Semitic that they thought they could have done a better job running Hitler’s concentration camps. Another earlier one, which I found annoying, was the suggestion that Pope Pius XII conspired with Hitler over the holocaust. I have read extensively on that subject and the stories put out by Jewish writers are rubbish, just like the fairy story put out by one or two other Jewish writers arguing that much of Wagner’s musical output was inspired solely as a slur against Jews. So I suggest, Werner, you take a good look at the insulting rubbish dished out by some of your colleagues and then reconsider whether my responses have been out of place. I trust you will agree that they got what they deserved, that is if you can bring yourself round to being remotely objective for once, and not continually paranoid about alleged anti-Semitism in other people's responses.

.....................

...listen up Sapphire, if you want British people saying nice things about British people then go to a British Classical Music Chat Board...and when you find one that is as easy to use, friendly, informative and entertaining etc as this one we will all move over to it, I remember your Music posts, I found them interesting, and I miss them, get off your soap box in Speakers Corner and write about music again, it's much more interesting and far more palitable than your Catholic vs Jewish People rants...chalkie

Dear Chalkperson – Thank you for your comments. As a Welsh expatriate and self-confessed hater of the English, I discount your opinion and comments entirely. As I have said many times before, I do not start any of these so-called “rants”. They all owe their origin to others who seem intent of stirring up anti-British and anti-Christian controversy. There have been dozens of such antagonistic threads over the past year or so, most of which I have completely ignored. I have picked up on only a tiny number of such threads, usually the worst cases (see my reply to Werner, above). For example, one of the latest attempts to stir up controversy – the “Israel Lobby” thread – clearly looked like a trap to which you will observe that I have not responded. As for the music side, I do occasionally contribute but less so these days, as it's all been said before. In any event, I recall you condemned my involvement as condescending and "holier than thou". There isn't much of interest to me at the present time, so I'm dabbling around in here to keep you some of your on your toes, and to help brighten up your days with jewel-like gems of wisdom.

...................

... And I don't recall receiving a single invoice for this service. I defy any of the critics to step up with the skills and time and commitment it requires to moderate and maintain this board as smoothly. ...I've noticed that, with some people, there is a sense of entitlement when others volunteer their services, a right to demand and control and whine when they don't get their way. It crosses all age and socio-economic levels and political beliefs. And very few say thanks. ....

Dear Madame – Sadly, yet more drivel from you it seems. Let me respond. I don’t know why the Management run this site. I received an explanation once but it didn’t make much sense so I left it. In one individual’s case, it presumably satisfies some need they have to voice a set of strong Neo-Con political opinions, with an anti-European agenda wich comes through so clearly. As far as I know, the Forum is not an exclusive club, requiring adherence to any political or religious point of view. Thus, presumably we are free to express our own opinions provided certain basic rules of conduct are observed. I certainly feel no need to thank the Management for their input. It’s a two-way deal: I’m contributing my time and intellectual input, and they don’t thank me for that. Do they thank you, Madame?

Incidentally, I too have done quite a lot of voluntary work. For instance, several years ago I was Secretary of my local Residents Association. I received very little in the way of thanks, but that was perfectly normal experience as it’s the way things tend to be in that kind of activity. All the same for that, I tried to do the job fairly and with the interests of all the residents in mind, not just those few who occasionally thanked me (at AGMs and such like events) for my efforts. Furthermore, the Residents Association of I was Secretary did not pamper selectively to the wishes of the vociferous few who happened to complain the loudest.

...................

I APOLOGIZE.

My error resulted from a careless reading of your original post in the other thread. But, at that time, you simply described the Catholic prayer, asking us to accept it, and the only one you actually quoted was one from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, and old edition, at that.

I have never seen any such prayer in any Roman Catholic missal in use in the United States, and I have never been to a Mass where such a prayer was recited.

Dear Reblem: Thank you for you’re half an apology. Now for the other half. I am very surprised that you think I only described the prayer and that I did not quote it. I'm afraid to tell you that you are 100% wrong yet again. I quoted the latest version of prayer in full in the Ann Coulter thread on 22 October, together with the two previous historical versions of the same prayer. Please have a look at it. It's very clear indeed. May I take it that if you had read my post properly you would not have made your absurd accusations against me, and that you will now apologise unreservedly in full. And do please try to read what I write if I have a future. It's a one-off prayer said on one day in the year, Good Friday only, so check your missal. If you like, also check it with the Catholic Encyclopedia, as it's all set out in there, which is something else I told you. Are you sure you don't need new specs? Only I wonder.

..................

Regards to you all if I don't get any further chance. Keep the babble going.



Sapphire

[pizza]

Elise, if you're still with us - having confused this thread's theme with your usual anti-semitic ravings - I trust that when you reach my stage of near-senility, your house will be in as good order as I consider mine to be. It certainly needs cleaning up at this point. Werner

Yes, as you can see, I'm still with you, but I sense the knives are being sharpened. While I have the chance, may I say there you go again, Werner, wrongly brandishing the emotive “anti-Semitic” card each time someone like me calls into question the bigoted comments by certain Jewish elements on this Board about aspects of other religions and nationalities. I’m still appalled at the one a few weeks ago (which I can tell you has actually triggered all of my recent comments) suggesting that many English people during WWII were so anti-Semitic that they thought they could have done a better job running Hitler’s concentration camps. Another earlier one, which I found annoying, was the suggestion that Pope Pius XII conspired with Hitler over the holocaust. I have read extensively on that subject and the stories put out by Jewish writers are rubbish, just like the fairy story put out by one or two other Jewish writers arguing that much of Wagner’s musical output was inspired solely as a slur against Jews. So I suggest, Werner, you take a good look at the insulting rubbish dished out by some of your colleagues and then reconsider whether my responses have been out of place. I trust you will agree that they got what they deserved, that is if you can bring yourself round to being remotely objective for once, and not continually paranoid about alleged anti-Semitism in other people's responses.Sapphire

Saphhie couldn't have read nearly as extensively as she claims if she thinks it's only Jewish writers and scholars who annoy her with books critical of Pius XII. It was mainly Catholic scholarship, after the opening of some of the Vatican archives which have been denied to Jewish scholars, that put the Pius XII matter into clear perspective.

See:

http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/Catho ... spope.html

As for the Wagner matter, she hasn't offered anything to rebut the carefully researched material of the scholars whose works were discussed, has she? And what difference can it possibly make to anyone as to the religion or ethnicity of the scholars? She never misses an opportunity to take her mandatory cheap shot at Jews, whether it be scholars whose works are discussed, or posters on this board. Yet, she has the unmitigated, hypocritical gall to describe the comments of Jewish posters who disagree with her as "bigoted"!

[DavidRoss]

Most people I meet have done absolutely nothing with their lives except go to work so they can transfer the contents of supermarkets and malls to their dwellings and allowed themselves to be conned into thinking 'that's real purpose'; and having two cars makes them twice as happy as having one, etc! Most of em spend their evenings slumped in front of the telly soaking up whatever old dross is served up, usually soaps and reality(?!)TV. Sad, really but it's normal.)
.

Seems to me that the folks you describe usually have reproduced with astonishing frequency.

I was pleasantly surprised the other day to come across an article claiming that American men watch an average of 6 hours of television per week, and American women watch slightly less.

[Barry]

... She never misses an opportunity to take her mandatory cheap shot at Jews, whether it be scholars whose works are discussed, or posters on this board. Yet, she has the unmitigated, hypocritical gall to describe the comments of Jewish posters who disagree with her as "bigoted"!

The article posted yesterday on British anti-Semitism sums it up quite nicely. People like Sapphire can make statements on our entire foreign policy mess being the result of our loyalty to Israel. Then, as you say, accuse those who point out that the notion that our foreign policy strings are being pulled by people whose first allegiance is to Israel fits in nicely with the traditional Jewish scapegoating that's been used for hundreds or even thousands of years to give Jews an extremely difficult time of being unreasonable and bigoted themselves:

"... One of the most conspicuous features of British anti-Semitism is that the British deny its existence. The Parliamentary inquiry received only a muted response. Both Mann and Richard Littlejohn, a journalist whose TV program on the subject aired in July 2007, encountered people who, when discovering their concern about anti-Semitism, said: “Oh, I didn’t know you were Jewish.” But Mann and Littlejohn aren’t Jewish. As Littlejohn noted, the implication was that no non-Jew would ever identify anti-Semitism, and therefore that anti-Semitism was generally a figment of the Jewish imagination. When I proposed to write a book about it, I was turned down by every mainstream publishing house. “No British publisher will touch this,” one editorial director told me. “Claiming there is anti-Semitism in Britain is simply unsayable. ...
"Britons also tend to suspect that Jews use the charge of anti-Semitism to divert attention from Israel’s crimes. This is why, for so many in Britain, the suggestion that anti-Semitism is enjoying a renaissance seems not only false but sinister. Outraged to be accused of peddling bigotry, they begin to hate those who level that charge—who, they conclude, are part of a conspiracy against truth.

"Thus Jews who seek to defend Israel find themselves in a trap. By complaining that attacks on Israel are anti-Semitic, they become examples of the supposed Jewish tendency to play the anti-Semitism card to suppress legitimate debate—and provoke yet more of the very prejudice that they are trying to combat. Such Jews find themselves in a situation that Kafka could have scripted. ..."

[Chalkperson]

He’s been banned from more Forums than some of the old trouts on here have probably had face lifts.

You have such a kind way with words...

[Ted]

I have to admit that I do respect Sapphire’s in your face anti-Semitism. That she is one of gargantuan proportions cannot be overlooked, but at least she’s more up front with it than those who hide in the underbrush of semantics. Which just goes to prove that if one tries hard enough, a positive spin can be applied to almost any situation….I underscore the word “Almost”

[Madame]

He’s been banned from more Forums than some of the old trouts on here have probably had face lifts.

I'm embarrassed for you ... only Hitchens can do Hitchens

Yes, as you can see, I'm still with you, but I sense the knives are being sharpened.

But sweetie, you brought the whetstone

There isn't much of interest to me at the present time, so I'm dabbling around in here to keep you some of your on your toes, and to help brighten up your days with jewel-like gems of wisdom.

You are VERY funny, thanks for the belly laugh.

... And I don't recall receiving a single invoice for this service. I defy any of the critics to step up with the skills and time and commitment it requires to moderate and maintain this board as smoothly. ...I've noticed that, with some people, there is a sense of entitlement when others volunteer their services, a right to demand and control and whine when they don't get their way. It crosses all age and socio-economic levels and political beliefs. And very few say thanks. ....

Dear Madame – Sadly, yet more drivel from you it seems.

First you make me laugh, now you have to go and make me cry, do you know how much it hurts to have my heartfelt words dismissed as drivel? Have you no compassion or sensitivity?

It’s a two-way deal: I’m contributing my time and intellectual input, and they don’t thank me for that. Do they thank you, Madame?

Well, as a matter of fact, they have. But there is no comparison between your and my 'contributions' and the amount of effort it takes to administer, maintain, and moderate this board, and if you missed it somehow, Lance and Corlyss were requested by others to keep it going. So it's not something that's been forced on you by someone with an agenda. You need to separate Corlyss the moderator from Corlyss the poster. The moderator enforces behavior rules, and you violated them, that simple.

I think you want to be banned instead of taking the responsibility of leaving on your own. That way you can continue to play victim.

Furthermore, the Residents Association of I was Secretary did not pamper selectively to the wishes of the vociferous few who happened to complain the loudest.

No comment

Regards to you all if I don't get any further chance.

I can hear your desperate cry for help

[Sapphire]

He’s been banned from more Forums than some of the old trouts on here have probably had face lifts.

You have such a kind way with words...

Oh boy, did I say that? Are you sure? Oh dear. That surely spells curtains now that I've possibly made enemies with all the old trouts on here. It doesn't leave many others to fall out with, I guess. I sense that the clock is ticking away fast. Tremble, tremble.

Before I go, and joking apart, I must tell you that I love Wales. The last time I was there I went down the "Big Pit" (a coal mining museum, complete with operational shaft), and the guide couldn't stop laughing at my flip-flop shoes. Some time before that, I went down Tower Colliery, which was still operational at the time, and still is I believe (the last one in Wales). You may know that Tower is a drift mine bearing medium grade, low volatile anthracite product, and it takes ages to reach the coal face. I felt exhausted after the tour, and it made me feel extremely humble when I saw the daily risks those men were taking to work the dwindling coal seams. I recall the coal soot got everywhere, and I mean everywhere.

http://www.minersadvice.co.uk/tower.htm

Regards.


Sapphire

[Ted]

Madame created:


Colleen, please forgive me for not acknowledging your lovely white light offering of last night.

[Chalkperson]

Oh boy, did I say that? Are you sure? Oh dear. That surely spells curtains now that I've possibly made enemies with all the old trouts on here. It doesn't leave many others to fall out with, I guess. I sense that the clock is ticking away fast. Tremble, tremble.

Why do you feel the need to insult people, Toads, Trout and Drivel, what is the point in saying these things, I think Madame is right you do seem to want to get banned. and still you cannot separate Corlyss the Poster and Corlyss the Moderator, she happens to also be management but surely by now enough of us have told you to untwist your thoughts, Americans can be very outspoken but you seem to want to insult somebody each time you post...

OK first my Hatred of English people is Hstorical, not hysterical, I don't hate the English, I hate their attitude and the way they ruled the world in days gone by which I have said before, and I know you don't start threads and respond occasionally rather than each time, but you won't ever stop dragging the threads on and on and on and on...

Before I go, and joking apart, I must tell you that I love Wales. The last time I was there I went down the "Big Pit" .... I felt exhausted after the tour, and it made me feel extremely humble when I saw the daily risks those men were taking to work the dwindling coal seams. I recall the coal soot got everywhere, and I mean everywhere.

My Grandfather was a miner and died from Black Lung, but there is a mystique to the mines and the people who worked in them are very brave, unfortunately as you probably see on the news the US mines are death traps, with the Management caring more about the $$$ than the safety of it's workforce...

[Agnes Selby]

I did not want to buy into this argument just in case I incite a "pogrom".

However, I do feel sorry for you, Sapphire. Only a member of a disintegrating nation would blame its ills on a minority. It would not
occur to the anti-Semitic fascists in England that their forefathers fought against fascism not so many years ago. And dying in the process.

What are you blaming the Jews for, Sapphire? Are they bombing your trains? Are they taking away your daily bread or are they contributing to your economy?
What is it that you envy so?

This allso applies to your remarks about America. Do you envy
America's way of life and freedom? Do you envy the prosperity
and Democracy?

As to my remark in another thread, which you so enjoy repeating
regarding the English envying the Germans for their extermination camps,
this remark is not of my own invention but a repetion of a brilliant remark by my one-time colleague in Fleet Street. However, your remarks on these pages prove that his remarks are now universally felt across England.
--------------

[absinthe]

Pardon me adding my bit, I reckon there's a fair bit of aspergers going on here. Compulsive.

Best to let it drop. No sense in getting this amount heated up in a corner pub - the landlord will chuck the culprits out any minute.


.

[Dave]

Mm, I wish I hadn't started this thread. Though it has been informative - the level of debate in it certainly disabuses one of any notion that a taste for classical music might positively correlate with IQ.

I refuse to take it seriously and confine myself from now on to chipping in to make fun of how silly you all sound. (Not everyone, of course, but a lot of people.)

For shame!

[absinthe]

I wish I hadn't started this thread.......
the level of debate in it......

There's certainly been some mass-debating from certain quarters here. Entertaining when (as lucky for me this week) one has spare moments.

I refuse to take it seriously and confine myself from now on to chipping in to make fun of how silly you all sound.

For shame!

Aw, now stop being so patronising; stop winding people up*. You can't get out of a mass debate you started THAT easily!

*It didn't take a Philadelphia lawyer to tell me that was your plan in the original post.
.

[Dave]

I wish I hadn't started this thread.......
the level of debate in it......

There's certainly been some mass-debating from certain quarters here. Entertaining when (as lucky for me this week) one has spare moments.

I refuse to take it seriously and confine myself from now on to chipping in to make fun of how silly you all sound.

For shame!

Aw, now stop being so patronising; stop winding people up*. You can't get out of a mass debate you started THAT easily!

*It didn't take a Philadelphia lawyer to tell me that was your plan in the original post.
.

It was not my intention to start the kind of stuff that's gone on in this thread or to 'wind people up'. Spare me your paranoid fantasies.

Also, absinthe, spare me your constant bitchiness and hostility. If I've misread your tone in some of your posts I apologise, but you do come across as rather nasty and I'm just going to ignore you from now on.

[absinthe]

Spare me your paranoid fantasies.

But why? Better to be paranoid than a fool! (R. K. Medies)

Also, absinthe, spare me your constant bitchiness and hostility.

I hadn't thought it was constant....but if you say so....

If I've misread your tone in some of your posts I apologise, but you do come across as rather nasty

I knew we had something in common....

and I'm just going to ignore you from now on.

By all means - your purgative. ..It looks like you're worth not ignoring....

[Dave]

By all means - your purgative. ..It looks like you're worth not ignoring....

Purgative? What, I make you crap yourself? I can live with that.

[absinthe]

At least you have a sense of humour (which has been distinctly lacking round here)!

[Madame]

Madame created:

Colleen, please forgive me for not acknowledging your lovely white light offering of last night.

Nothing to forgive, Ted -- I put it up late last night ...

[Dave]

At least you have a sense of humour!

Thanks I think you probably do too actually and I just misread your tone a bit as I suspected. Probably.

Now you're my new best friend. We'll have so much fun. I'm making us friendship bracelets as we speak. I'm going to follow you everywhere and we'll do just everything together. It'll be just so much fun! We can do each others hair and everything.

[absinthe]

At least you have a sense of humour!

Thanks I think you probably do too actually and I just misread your tone a bit as I suspected. Probably.

.........We can do each others hair and everything.

Ooh, you flirt!

I hope you're ok with French braids then. Takes ages so any help is welcome!

[Madame]

At least you have a sense of humour!

Thanks I think you probably do too actually and I just misread your tone a bit as I suspected. Probably.

Now you're my new best friend. We'll have so much fun. I'm making us friendship bracelets as we speak. I'm going to follow you everywhere and we'll do just everything together. It'll be just so much fun! We can do each others hair and everything.

And ... maybe you can room together next semester

[Lance]

The basic political stance of the Corner Pub is determined by the Management. It's as simple as that. I'm surprised that the original poster needed to ask this question. The answer is so obvious.


Sapphire

That is a stupid statement.

No it isn't. The Management here doesn't like lefties or Europeans, which explains why there aren't many here. They get dumped on quite heavily if they dare speak out, especially against USA foreign policy. A few American liberals/lefties are tolerated provided they make their regular kow-towing gestures in Management's direction. I'm thinking of one highly two-faced twerp in particular. I can think of no other Forum in which there is anything like the amount of Management intervention as here.


Sapphire

Hi Sapphire: I'm HALF the management here and I do not get involved in any way in The Pub. But you have also noticed, I'm sure, that I am not in The Pub that much anyway since I very much dislike political debates and am not terribly interested in politics anyway. On the other hand, I LOVE the Europeans (my heritage is half European - Russian) and I LOVE the Brits, Canadians and Australians and all Europeans in general. I have visited England, Europe, including Russia. (The other half of me is English.) But one thing I have noted in The Pub is that people can debate, very much in depth, too, except that when the respondent (management or member) convey their thoughts or views, then it seems not to be too well received and tempers begin to flare. It has to be equally open-ended. But I would love to see more English and Europeans on our board.

[RebLem]

Elise, if you're still with us - having confused this thread's theme with your usual anti-semitic ravings - I trust that when you reach my stage of near-senility, your house will be in as good order as I consider mine to be. It certainly needs cleaning up at this point. Werner

Yes, as you can see, I'm still with you, but I sense the knives are being sharpened.... Another earlier one, which I found annoying, was the suggestion that Pope Pius XII conspired with Hitler over the holocaust. I have read extensively on that subject and the stories put out by Jewish writers are rubbish, just like the fairy story put out by one or two other Jewish writers arguing that much of Wagner’s musical output was inspired solely as a slur against Jews. So I suggest, Werner, you take a good look at the insulting rubbish dished out by some of your colleagues and then reconsider whether my responses have been out of place. I trust you will agree that they got what they deserved, that is if you can bring yourself round to being remotely objective for once, and not continually paranoid about alleged anti-Semitism in other people's responses.

I APOLOGIZE.
My error resulted from a careless reading of your original post in the other thread. But, at that time, you simply described the Catholic prayer, asking us to accept it, and the only one you actually quoted was one from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, and old edition, at that.

I have never seen any such prayer in any Roman Catholic missal in use in the United States, and I have never been to a Mass where such a prayer was recited.

Dear Reblem: Thank you for you’re half an apology. Now for the other half. I am very surprised that you think I only described the prayer and that I did not quote it. I'm afraid to tell you that you are 100% wrong yet again. I quoted the latest version of prayer in full in the Ann Coulter thread on 22 October, together with the two previous historical versions of the same prayer. Please have a look at it. It's very clear indeed. May I take it that if you had read my post properly you would not have made your absurd accusations against me, and that you will now apologise unreservedly in full. And do please try to read what I write if I have a future. It's a one-off prayer said on one day in the year, Good Friday only, so check your missal. If you like, also check it with the Catholic Encyclopedia, as it's all set out in there, which is something else I told you. Are you sure you don't need new specs? Only I wonder.

Regards to you all if I don't get any further chance. Keep the babble going. Sapphire

I will take the above in reverse order.

No, I am not sure I don't need new specs. My computer specs are 3 years old. I am diabetic and supposed to get an eye exam every year, but I tend to delay it because my vision plan allows a pair of new glasses every 2 years. I find bifocals annoying, so what I do is get an exam every two years, and then get distance glasses, for driving and such, and computer glasses for mid-distance work in alternate biennia. I read books best withouth glasses, just holding the book, or booklet, as in CD liner notes, a little closer than is customary. Last year, I got new distance glasses. Next year, I will get new computer glasses. If I don't let my doctor rush me, I'm surely not going to let you do so. Fact is, though, I clicked on Barry's thread a few minutes ago that said "Nutter wins," meaning someone named Nutter who just got elected Mayor of Phildelphia. But I thought it said Mutter, as in Anne Sophie Mutter, and was wondering what she had won, and why it was in the Pub and not in Chatterbox.

I stopped going to church, except for special occasions, like to please my mother, who died in 2000, or for special occasions, like the weddings of relatives, about 1963 or so, when I went away to college. I don't have a Missal, and haven't since I was a subteen. In the US, few Catholics, even practicing ones, have their own Missals. They are generally supplied by the congregation, and are found in little bookracks on the backs of pews.

As I said, I have never seen a prayer for the conversion of the Jews in any Missal, but, generally, I don't go looking for such curiosities unless it is listed as one of the items that is part of the particular service. Never have, even when I was a practicing Catholic. You did pique my curiosity, however, to the extent that I looked in the new catechism, which I do possess. It does have a statement quite similar in content to the one from the Book of Common Prayer which you quoted.

I never really meant to say, if I did at all, that you were absolutely wrong. Only that this is not a prayer or a sentiment I have found any American Catholics spending any time on at all. If it is in a Missal someplace, it is in an optional prayer, which I have found is never "optioned" in American churches. Perhaps your experience in Britain is different.

Now, on to the earlier item. Fact is, the leading book attacking Pope Pius XII for his alleged anti-Semitism is by a British Catholic--Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII by John Cornwell. The leading attack on his thesis is by an American Jew--The Myth of Hitler's Pope: Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany by [Conservative] Rabbi David G Dalin, who is also a professor of history at Ave Maria University.

How do you like them apples?

[pizza]

Now, on to the earlier item. Fact is, the leading book attacking Pope Pius XII for his alleged anti-Semitism is by a British Catholic--Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII by John Cornwell. The leading attack on his thesis is by an American Jew--The Myth of Hitler's Pope: Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany by [Conservative] Rabbi David G Dalin, who is also a professor of history at Ave Maria University.

How do you like them apples?

You omitted some important apples. There is no "leading book" attacking Pius XII. One of the books, commonly accepted by academics as an indispensable source is Guenter Lewy's The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany.

I have read Lewy, Cornwall and Dalin. I have also skimmed through:

"The Popes Against the Jews: The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism" by David I. Kertzer (Knopf, 2001)

and

"Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy" by Susan Zuccotti (Yale University Press, 2000)

Rabbi Dalin, an employee of the Catholic Ave Maria University writes more about Pius XII's critics and what he considers to be their nefarious reasons for writing about the Pope than he does about the Pope himself and his activities during the Holocaust, or his close official relationship with Germany before he became Pope, or his interaction with Nazi authorities after 1939. It contains ad-hominem attacks on some of the scholars who actually produced material supporting their theses. He also attempts to shift the focus of the reader's attention away from the Pope, and toward the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem instead. Compared to Lewy's carefully researched book, this is 3rd rate "scholarship".

[Sapphire]

Are you sure you don't need new specs? Only I wonder.

No, I am not sure I don't need new specs. My computer specs are 3 years old. I am diabetic and supposed to get an eye exam every year, but I tend to delay it because my vision plan allows a pair of new glasses every 2 years. I find bifocals annoying, so what I do is get an exam every two years, and then get distance glasses, for driving and such, and computer glasses for mid-distance work in alternate biennia. I read books best withouth glasses, just holding the book, or booklet, as in CD liner notes, a little closer than is customary. Last year, I got new distance glasses. Next year, I will get new computer glasses. If I don't let my doctor rush me, I'm surely not going to let you do so. Fact is, though, I clicked on Barry's thread a few minutes ago that said "Nutter wins," meaning someone named Nutter who just got elected Mayor of Phildelphia. But I thought it said Mutter, as in Anne Sophie Mutter, and was wondering what she had won, and why it was in the Pub and not in Chatterbox.

I was only asking out of kindly interest, you understand. You know how I worry about you, now you're a "senior citizen".

.................

I stopped going to church, except for special occasions, like to please my mother, who died in 2000, or for special occasions, like the weddings of relatives, about 1963 or so, when I went away to college. I don't have a Missal, and haven't since I was a subteen. In the US, few Catholics, even practicing ones, have their own Missals. They are generally supplied by the congregation, and are found in little bookracks on the backs of pews.

As I said, I have never seen a prayer for the conversion of the Jews in any Missal, but, generally, I don't go looking for such curiosities unless it is listed as one of the items that is part of the particular service. Never have, even when I was a practicing Catholic.

Shame, but it's never too late. Think of the "Prodigal Son". I can see that I may just have to come over some time to sort you out religiously. I'll buy you a missal. How about that?

..........

Now, on to the earlier item. Fact is, the leading book attacking Pope Pius XII for his alleged anti-Semitism is by a British Catholic--Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII by John Cornwell. The leading attack on his thesis is by an American Jew--The Myth of Hitler's Pope: Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany by [Conservative] Rabbi David G Dalin, who is also a professor of history at Ave Maria University.

Thanks but obviously I know all about that. Like I think I said in the relevant Pius XII thread earlier this year, Cornwell's 1999 book has long been discredited. Even Cornwell himself changed his mind on the important question of motives, following lots of criticsm of his analysis. He wrote some three years ago: "I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler's Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the Germany.".

For a much better and fuller analysis of the whole situation see: http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/piuswhitehead.htm

It’s rather long but well worth a careful read, honestly. You will acquire a far better impression of Pius XII and the extremely awkward position he was in, and how, in the circumstance, he probably followed the best overall course.

........

How do you like them apples?

I wish I knew what you mean. I’m not usually slow on the uptake but this has me beat, and the time has come for me to ask what "apples" is all about.

...........


Kind Regards


Sapphire

[Madame]

Now, on to the earlier item. Fact is, the leading book attacking Pope Pius XII for his alleged anti-Semitism is by a British Catholic--Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII by John Cornwell. The leading attack on his thesis is by an American Jew--The Myth of Hitler's Pope: Pius XII and His Secret War Against Nazi Germany by [Conservative] Rabbi David G Dalin, who is also a professor of history at Ave Maria University.

Thanks but obviously I know all about that. Like I think I said in the relevant Pius XII thread earlier this year, Cornwell's 1999 book has long been discredited. Even Cornwell himself changed his mind on the important question of motives, following lots of criticsm of his analysis. He wrote some three years ago: "I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler's Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the Germany.".
...

It’s rather long but well worth a careful read, honestly. You will acquire a far better impression of Pius XII and the extremely awkward position he was in, and how, in the circumstance, he probably followed the best overall course.

Along the line of what you have written, I wanted to mention a book featured on CSPAN Book TV, which appears to have flown under the radar. A Special Mission: Hitler's Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope Pius the XII by Dan Kurzman

Excerpted from Amazon.com:

Book Description
The shocking and incredible story behind Hitler's plan to occupy the Vatican and kidnap Pope Pius XII--and the surprising result of its failure.
In September, 1943, Adolf Hitler, furious at the ouster of Mussolini, sent German troops into Rome and ordered SS General Karl Wolff, who had been Heinrich Himmler's chief aide, to occupy the Vatican and kidnap (and, perhaps, kill) Pope Pius XII. At the same time plans were being made to deport Rome's Jews to Auschwitz, Wolff began playing a dangerous game: stalling Hitler's plot against the pope, whom he hoped would save him from the noose in case Germany lost the war. To save Pius, Wolff and fellow conspirators blackmailed him into silence when the Jews were rounded up, hoping that Hitler would rescind his order.

This tale of intrigue and betrayal is one of the most important untold stories of World War II. Dan Kurzman was the first journalist to have interviewed General Wolff following his release from prison after the war. And this is the only book to tell the full behind-the-scenes story of the plot against the Vatican and its far-reaching consequences.

From Publishers Weekly
Veteran popular historian Kurzman (The Bravest Battle) relates how a Hitler-Himmler order in 1943 to kidnap the pope and seize Vatican files and treasures was twice delayed and finally undermined by a group of high German officers and officials in Rome. The foilers were headed by the SS leader in Italy, Gen. Karl Wolff, whom Kurzman interviewed before his death in 1984. Kurzman demonstrates that Hitler wanted the Vatican neutralized because he thought the pope had aided the overthrow of Mussolini in 1943 and feared that the Church's leader would denounce the Final Solution in general and the imminent deportation of Rome's Jews in particular. Wolff and others in Rome, meanwhile, hoped to use the pope as an intermediary for a negotiated peace and an Anglo-American-German campaign against the Soviets. Kurzman also touches upon such related topics as the 1933 Nazi-Vatican Concordat, how Pius's silence on the murder of the Jews was partly rooted in excessive fears of a Soviet takeover of the Vatican, and the curious role of Rome's chief rabbi, Israel Zolli, who ultimately converted to Catholicism. Kurzman does a good job of telling a suspenseful and little-known story of WWII intrigue. Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

From Booklist
By September 1943, the tide of battle had turned against Germany. As the Russian army steadily advanced from the east, British and American bombers were reducing German cities to rubble. As Hitler's physical and mental condition deteriorated, he often proposed wildly reckless and impractical schemes. One of those involved invading the Vatican and seizing the pope. According to Kurzman, a former foreign correspondent, the plot was serious and was to be implemented by SS General Karl Wolff, who was Kurzman's principal source for this intense, absorbing, but not fully convincing tale. According to Wolff, he foiled the plan through delay while obtaining the pope's silence as the SS rounded up Italian Jews and transported them to the death camps. As seen here, Wolff is arrogant, cynical, and manipulative. Still, he seems to have been blessed with a degree of personal charm, not quite fitting the bill as a monster. Some of his claims seem credible, but others can never be verified; his account is a wild ride loaded with surprising twists and turns. Jay Freeman
Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved

Kurzman's presentation can be viewed on this site: http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?Prog ... ayMedia=No

The video quality is poor, and Kurzman's delivery choppy -- but it's worth staying with to get some interesting and important details.

[RebLem]

How do you like them apples?

I wish I knew what you mean. I’m not usually slow on the uptake but this has me beat, and the time has come for me to ask what "apples" is all about.
Kind Regards
Sapphire

LOL. Its an old, common American idiomatic expression. Its a sort of "Gotcha!" statement, usually spoiken with some degree of truculence, small or great, but also with some humor to signify that it is stopping short of boorishness. My mother used it on me all the time when I was a child.

[RebLem]

Thanks but obviously I know all about that. Like I think I said in the relevant Pius XII thread earlier this year, Cornwell's 1999 book has long been discredited. Even Cornwell himself changed his mind on the important question of motives, following lots of criticsm of his analysis. He wrote some three years ago: "I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler's Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by the Germany.".
...

It’s rather long but well worth a careful read, honestly. You will acquire a far better impression of Pius XII and the extremely awkward position he was in, and how, in the circumstance, he probably followed the best overall course.

Along the line of what you have written, I wanted to mention a book featured on CSPAN Book TV, which appears to have flown under the radar. A Special Mission: Hitler's Secret Plot to Seize the Vatican and Kidnap Pope Pius the XII by Dan Kurzman

Excerpted from Amazon.com:

Book Description
The shocking and incredible story behind Hitler's plan to occupy the Vatican and kidnap Pope Pius XII--and the surprising result of its failure.
In September, 1943, Adolf Hitler, furious at the ouster of Mussolini, sent German troops into Rome and ordered SS General Karl Wolff, who had been Heinrich Himmler's chief aide, to occupy the Vatican and kidnap (and, perhaps, kill) Pope Pius XII. At the same time plans were being made to deport Rome's Jews to Auschwitz, Wolff began playing a dangerous game: stalling Hitler's plot against the pope, whom he hoped would save him from the noose in case Germany lost the war. To save Pius, Wolff and fellow conspirators blackmailed him into silence when the Jews were rounded up, hoping that Hitler would rescind his order.

This tale of intrigue and betrayal is one of the most important untold stories of World War II. Dan Kurzman was the first journalist to have interviewed General Wolff following his release from prison after the war. And this is the only book to tell the full behind-the-scenes story of the plot against the Vatican and its far-reaching consequences.

From Publishers Weekly
Veteran popular historian Kurzman (The Bravest Battle) relates how a Hitler-Himmler order in 1943 to kidnap the pope and seize Vatican files and treasures was twice delayed and finally undermined by a group of high German officers and officials in Rome. The foilers were headed by the SS leader in Italy, Gen. Karl Wolff, whom Kurzman interviewed before his death in 1984. Kurzman demonstrates that Hitler wanted the Vatican neutralized because he thought the pope had aided the overthrow of Mussolini in 1943 and feared that the Church's leader would denounce the Final Solution in general and the imminent deportation of Rome's Jews in particular. Wolff and others in Rome, meanwhile, hoped to use the pope as an intermediary for a negotiated peace and an Anglo-American-German campaign against the Soviets. Kurzman also touches upon such related topics as the 1933 Nazi-Vatican Concordat, how Pius's silence on the murder of the Jews was partly rooted in excessive fears of a Soviet takeover of the Vatican, and the curious role of Rome's chief rabbi, Israel Zolli, who ultimately converted to Catholicism. Kurzman does a good job of telling a suspenseful and little-known story of WWII intrigue. Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

From Booklist
By September 1943, the tide of battle had turned against Germany. As the Russian army steadily advanced from the east, British and American bombers were reducing German cities to rubble. As Hitler's physical and mental condition deteriorated, he often proposed wildly reckless and impractical schemes. One of those involved invading the Vatican and seizing the pope. According to Kurzman, a former foreign correspondent, the plot was serious and was to be implemented by SS General Karl Wolff, who was Kurzman's principal source for this intense, absorbing, but not fully convincing tale. According to Wolff, he foiled the plan through delay while obtaining the pope's silence as the SS rounded up Italian Jews and transported them to the death camps. As seen here, Wolff is arrogant, cynical, and manipulative. Still, he seems to have been blessed with a degree of personal charm, not quite fitting the bill as a monster. Some of his claims seem credible, but others can never be verified; his account is a wild ride loaded with surprising twists and turns. Jay Freeman
Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved

Kurzman's presentation can be viewed on this site: http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?Prog ... ayMedia=No

The video quality is poor, and Kurzman's delivery choppy -- but it's worth staying with to get some interesting and important details.

I agree entirely. Something else which is instructive is what happened to Jews in The Netherlands who had converted to Catholicism, among whom was a noted writer, and Carmelite nun, Edith Stein. From Wikipedia---

However, Stein was not safe in the Netherlands [where she had been transferred, from Germany, by her order in the hope of keeping her safe]—the Dutch Bishops' Conference had a public statement read in all the churches of the country on July 20, 1942, condemning Nazi racism. In a retaliatory response on July 26, 1942, the Reichskommissar of the Netherlands, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, ordered the arrest of all Jewish converts, who had previously been spared. Stein and her sister Rosa, also a convert, were captured and shipped to the Auschwitz concentration camp, where they died in the gas chambers on August 9, 1942.

Nothing happened, particularly to the Dutch bishops. It is one thing for someone to risk martyrdom by speaking freely and courageously. It is quite another to risk the lives of others by such action, while one's own life is spared.

[Sapphire]

I can think of no other Forum in which there is anything like the amount of Management intervention as here.

Not to discuss other fora, but obviously you've never been to the MozartForum. I used to post there occasionally until they nearly banned me once for using smilies.

Teresa

I should watch out, Teresa, I hear the same ban might be coming here soon. That's why I never use them: just playing safe, you see, as usual.


Sapphire

[Kevin R]

Cornwell and Goldhagen are generally dismissed; Zuccotti, Lewy and Dalin all have various shortcomings. Conway and Phayer should be mentioned.

[pizza]

The Vatican plays into these ongoing disputes by remaining secretive. They could open their archives, let the chips fall where they may and resolve many of the questions that remain unanswered.

[Madame]

The Vatican plays into these ongoing disputes by remaining secretive. They could open their archives, let the chips fall where they may and resolve many of the questions that remain unanswered.

Who's to say anything would be resolved? Those with biased agendas could still cherry pick what suited them, and who would be the wiser? And perhaps the archives don't tell the whole story.

Those were times of great fear, and secrecy was everywhere. At best we have interviews, testimonies, and some documents -- look at the differing interpretations drawn from even that information.

[pizza]

The Vatican plays into these ongoing disputes by remaining secretive. They could open their archives, let the chips fall where they may and resolve many of the questions that remain unanswered.

Who's to say anything would be resolved? Those with biased agendas could still cherry pick what suited them, and who would be the wiser? And perhaps the archives don't tell the whole story.

Those were times of great fear, and secrecy was everywhere. At best we have interviews, testimonies, and some documents -- look at the differing interpretations drawn from even that information.

The very fact that the archives remain sealed raises questions as to why. Certainly the times of great fear are over, and secrecy now is a matter of choice, not necessity. Who's to say nothing would be resolved? Serious, fair-minded scholars who aren't cherry pickers would be the wiser and so would we all. Most people -- not all, of course -- would settle for more of the story if the whole story can't be told.

[RebLem]

The Vatican plays into these ongoing disputes by remaining secretive. They could open their archives, let the chips fall where they may and resolve many of the questions that remain unanswered.

Who's to say anything would be resolved? Those with biased agendas could still cherry pick what suited them, and who would be the wiser? And perhaps the archives don't tell the whole story.

Those were times of great fear, and secrecy was everywhere. At best we have interviews, testimonies, and some documents -- look at the differing interpretations drawn from even that information.

The very fact that the archives remain sealed raises questions as to why. Certainly the times of great fear are over, and secrecy now is a matter of choice, not necessity. Who's to say nothing would be resolved? Serious, fair-minded scholars who aren't cherry pickers would be the wiser and so would we all. Most people -- not all, of course -- would settle for more of the story if the whole story can't be told.

Another thing which I have asked before and never gotten a satisfactory answer to. Why is it that the Lutherans have an inexhaustible supply of Get out of Jail Free cards? I don't recall that they did a hell of a lot by way of stepping up to the plate, either. In fact, the only sect which as a sect actively resisted the Nazis were the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Oh, and I just thought I should mention that everybody here just let what I pointed out about the Dutch bishops just wash off their backs, like water off ducks. I guess nobody wants to deal with it, which is always a sign of intellectual dishonesty.

[Sapphire]

Oh, and I just thought I should mention that everybody here just let what I pointed out about the Dutch bishops just wash off their backs, like water off ducks. I guess nobody wants to deal with it, which is always a sign of intellectual dishonesty.

I saw it. To me it just proves yet again that, with limited means at one's disposal, it's sometimes better to say nothing when confronted by a powerful evil force, rather than try to deal with it by piecemeal opposition. In the case you quote, the outspokenness of the Dutch Bishops (which I didn't know about) completely backfired and led to a very sad disaster. The only way to have stood up against Hitler was what the British Government actually did, namely put up a thorough military opposition which had at least a chance of success or containment. Hitler was otherwise unstoppable and no religious leader, however influential, would have made the slightest difference merely by taking a more aggressive line, the outcome of which could well have been far worse for all concerned on the right side.


Sapphire

[pizza]

The controversy regarding disclosure of classified or secret information many years after the events in question happened, and where no harm can possibly occur except perhaps to the reputations of people long since deceased, is typified by the refusal of the US Government to release all of the documents concerning the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

See:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=127

The natural and logical inference to be drawn from such secrecy is that the institutions refusing to make the information publicly available have something to hide.

[living_stradivarius]

The controversy regarding disclosure of classified or secret information many years after the events in question happened, and where no harm can possibly occur except perhaps to the reputations of people long since deceased, is typified by the refusal of the US Government to release all of the documents concerning the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

See:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=127

The natural and logical inference to be drawn from such secrecy is that the institutions refusing to make the information publicly available have something to hide.

Roosevelt received intelligence that an attack was coming, but the administration was too racist to think the threat was real.

[DavidRoss]

Roosevelt received intelligence that an attack was coming, but the administration was too racist to think the threat was real.

Evidence for this extraordinary claim?