Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

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SaulChanukah

Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu May 28, 2009 10:51 am

If this is true it will be one of the strangest stories...

Image

Mel Gibson’s girlfriend revealed to be Jewish; actor/director offers to convert to Judaism.

A little research into the family tree of Oksana Grigorieva, girlfriend of soon-to-be-divorcing actor/director Mel Gibson, reveals one startling detail.

Through her father’s side, Grigorieva is Jewish.

The Russian beauty’s paternal grandfather’s birthname was Davidov, a classic Russian-Jewish surname. It was later changed to Chernuha to avoid anti-Semitism.

Grigorieva is actually her mother’s surname.

“Learning [that I'm Jewish] is a very pleasant surprise,” Grigorieva said, adding she intends to become an observant Jew with her beliefs somewhere between conservative and reformed.

Gibson’s drunken anti-Semitic tirade made many in Hollywood wonder if he harbors any ill feelings toward Jews, especially since his father, Hutton, denies the existence of the Holocaust.

Does his girlfriend’s Judaism bother him?

“Not at all,” said a spokesperson for the actor. “Mel has even offered to convert to Judaism–if and when they make plans to marry.”

Gibson, a Roman Catholic, is currently divorcing his wife, Robyn, after more than 25 years of marriage.

http://ponderingsfrompluto.wordpress.co ... o-judaism/

jbuck919
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by jbuck919 » Thu May 28, 2009 11:20 am

The small semi-schismatic movement that calls itself Traditional Catholicism (not to be confused with tradition-minded Roman Catholics) likes to claim Gibson as one of their own because, for instance, he funds at least one of their churches. Notice that I did not make that past tense. I visit one of their sites every now and then for pure if perverse amusement, and they continue to defend Gibson no matter what he does, like divorce his wife or make a public spectacle while drunk, when they routinely excoriate mainstream Catholics for things like abandoning the old rules of fasting and abstention. I should go to that site now and see how if at all they're dealing with this rumor. :twisted:

(And if you're interested, Saul, the same movement also defends that Holocaust-denying English bishop, saying that he should not be censured by the pope, whom they detest, for his "opinions in private matters on which people can differ.")

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by karlhenning » Thu May 28, 2009 11:48 am

Not that Saul is a one-topic participant, or anything . . . .

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
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keaggy220
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by keaggy220 » Thu May 28, 2009 12:18 pm

Effective conversion tool... :twisted:
"I guess we're all, or most of us, the wards of the nineteenth-century sciences which denied existence of anything it could not reason or explain. The things we couldn't explain went right on but not with our blessing... So many old and lovely things are stored in the world's attic, because we don't want them around us and we don't dare throw them out."
— John Steinbeck, The Winter of Our Discontent


"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God."
- Micah 6:8

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu May 28, 2009 12:37 pm

karlhenning wrote:Not that Saul is a one-topic participant, or anything . . . .

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl,

Grow up.

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu May 28, 2009 12:48 pm

I don't think Mel can handle it. Blame it on the testosterone or whatever he's poppin'
Image

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Ralph » Thu May 28, 2009 2:40 pm

Saul, my friend:

In your belief system is this woman a Jew? if I read the article correctly she claims to be Jewish based on her father but being an official Jew is matrilineal. Am I right?
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

Agnes Selby
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Agnes Selby » Thu May 28, 2009 3:53 pm

This is the strangest rumour ever!

According to the news here, "darling" Mel stated on one of
your TV programs that he has no intention to marry his Russian
sweetheart.

Besides, how would his conversion to Judaism affect his father.
It would kill him if he is not already dead. Gibson Snr. made
news in Australia while the family lived here by his denial
of the Holocoust, his anti-Semitic statements, his rebuke
of the previous Pope for forgiving Israel for killing Christ.
All of this on TV and newspapers. Not once, but many times.

No, Saul, I don't think this will ever happen unless pigs will fly...

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu May 28, 2009 4:04 pm

Ralph wrote:Saul, my friend:

In your belief system is this woman a Jew? if I read the article correctly she claims to be Jewish based on her father but being an official Jew is matrilineal. Am I right?
Yes lol she first needs to convert!

But the entire idea that Mel Gibson is willing to convert to Judaism after all that he did is really strange and very surprising.

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Chosen Barley » Thu May 28, 2009 4:07 pm

It's a joke. That is a satirical site. Y'all go back to sleep now! :)

Click on "About Ponderings from Pluto" on the right hand side.


"About Ponderings from Pluto

This is a satirical blog. None of the news events here are real. Not even the one about Gene Simmons wanting to trademark the letter “E”. Still, it was amusing how irate some of his fans became."
Last edited by Chosen Barley on Thu May 28, 2009 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
STRESSED? Spell it backwards for the cure.

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu May 28, 2009 4:10 pm

Chosen Barley wrote:It's a joke. That is a satirical site. Y'all go back to sleep now! :)
You can never know, remember we are dealing with Hollywood here! :D

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by living_stradivarius » Thu May 28, 2009 5:20 pm

News from pluto, nice :lol:
Image

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu May 28, 2009 5:23 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:News from pluto, nice :lol:
Well, they are the 'stars'...

:wink:

Modernistfan
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Modernistfan » Fri May 29, 2009 11:25 am

Guess what? The name "Davidov," often also transliterated "Davydov" or "Davidoff" is not a "classic Russian-Jewish name." Most of the people with that surname are not Jewish, although the founder of the Davidoff tobacco business, who spelled his name that way after emigrating from Kiev, Ukraine to Switzerland, was in fact Jewish. Check Wikipedia for people surnamed "Davydov," the most common transliteration now, and it appears that none of them are Jewish. The cellist Karl Davydov (also spelled Davidov) definitely was not.

So it is likely that Ms. Hottie's father isn't even Jewish!

Wallingford
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Wallingford » Fri May 29, 2009 3:29 pm

For a while there, you musta been in hog heaven, Saul!!

(burp!)
If I could tell my mom and dad
That the things we never had
Never mattered we were always ok
Getting ready for Christmas day
--Paul Simon

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Sat May 30, 2009 9:10 pm

Modernistfan wrote:Guess what? The name "Davidov," often also transliterated "Davydov" or "Davidoff" is not a "classic Russian-Jewish name." Most of the people with that surname are not Jewish, although the founder of the Davidoff tobacco business, who spelled his name that way after emigrating from Kiev, Ukraine to Switzerland, was in fact Jewish. Check Wikipedia for people surnamed "Davydov," the most common transliteration now, and it appears that none of them are Jewish. The cellist Karl Davydov (also spelled Davidov) definitely was not.

So it is likely that Ms. Hottie's father isn't even Jewish!

So you know her father better then her?

What else do you know smartypants?

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Sat May 30, 2009 9:11 pm

Wallingford wrote:For a while there, you musta been in hog heaven, Saul!!

(burp!)
Please chill.

Wallingford
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Wallingford » Sat May 30, 2009 11:14 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Wallingford wrote:For a while there, you musta been in hog heaven, Saul!!

(burp!)
Please chill.
Nah. I prefer it microwaved.
If I could tell my mom and dad
That the things we never had
Never mattered we were always ok
Getting ready for Christmas day
--Paul Simon

Modernistfan
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Modernistfan » Sun May 31, 2009 12:57 am

I do not know her father at all, and I did not say that there is no possibility that her father, with the name Davidov, Davidoff, or Davydov, was Jewish, merely that, statistically, it is more probable that he is not Jewish. It is certainly a possibility, and I pointed out that Zinovy (Zino) Davidoff, who founded the Davidoff tobacco business after he emigrated from Ukraine to Switzerland, was indeed Jewish. However, statistically, it is probably unlikely. If you have ever played craps in Las Vegas or Atlantic City (or any other dice game involving two dice), you will know that it is very improbable that 12 comes up on three successive rolls, but it is not impossible, and I have seen it a number of times.

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun May 31, 2009 8:33 am

Modernistfan wrote:I do not know her father at all, and I did not say that there is no possibility that her father, with the name Davidov, Davidoff, or Davydov, was Jewish, merely that, statistically, it is more probable that he is not Jewish. It is certainly a possibility, and I pointed out that Zinovy (Zino) Davidoff, who founded the Davidoff tobacco business after he emigrated from Ukraine to Switzerland, was indeed Jewish. However, statistically, it is probably unlikely. If you have ever played craps in Las Vegas or Atlantic City (or any other dice game involving two dice), you will know that it is very improbable that 12 comes up on three successive rolls, but it is not impossible, and I have seen it a number of times.
But she says that her father is Jewish.

I guess she is wrong and you are right.

Makes sense ?

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Auntie Lynn » Sun May 31, 2009 8:59 am

Who cares...they can have him.

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun May 31, 2009 9:09 am

What makes me believe that she has some Jewish background is the fact that she looks very much like a Russian Jew.

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun May 31, 2009 6:32 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:What makes me believe that she has some Jewish background is the fact that she looks very much like a Russian Jew.
Saul, What do Russian Jews look like? Would they
look like Danny Kaye, or Isaac Stern or Anna Pavlova?
Neither is a representative type. They just look like
PEOPLE.

Besides what difference does it make? Who, quite honestly,
cares about Gibson and his doings. In Australia we are just
glad that he has left our shores for good.

Agnes.

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun May 31, 2009 7:04 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:What makes me believe that she has some Jewish background is the fact that she looks very much like a Russian Jew.
Saul, What do Russian Jews look like? Would they
look like Danny Kaye, or Isaac Stern or Anna Pavlova?
Neither is a representative type. They just look like
PEOPLE.

Besides what difference does it make? Who, quite honestly,
cares about Gibson and his doings. In Australia we are just
glad that he has left our shores for good.

Agnes.
Russian Jews look like Jews who came from Russia. Also Georgian Jews look like Jews who came from Georgia and so on.

I know that Gibson is an idiot and a hateful anti Semitic scum, but this whole story is just so interesting.

Agnes Selby
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun May 31, 2009 7:51 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:What makes me believe that she has some Jewish background is the fact that she looks very much like a Russian Jew.
Saul, What do Russian Jews look like? Would they
look like Danny Kaye, or Isaac Stern or Anna Pavlova?
Neither is a representative type. They just look like
PEOPLE.

Besides what difference does it make? Who, quite honestly,
cares about Gibson and his doings. In Australia we are just
glad that he has left our shores for good.

Agnes.
Russian Jews look like Jews who came from Russia. Also Georgian Jews look like Jews who came from Georgia and so on.

I know that Gibson is an uninformed person and a hateful anti Semitic scum, but this whole story is just so interesting.
----------

What is interesting is that in your view, Russian Jews look like Jews who
came from Russia and Georgian Jews look like Jews who came from Georgia.

I agree with you that Jews living in various countries, look like
their next door anti-Semitic neighbours. How do you explain this?
Is it because over the centuries their Middle Eastern blood
was diluted by the genes of their Slavonik and other neighbours? Is it due to evolution? Or is it simply a matter of climate? What do you think?
----------

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Sun May 31, 2009 9:36 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:
SaulChanukah wrote:What makes me believe that she has some Jewish background is the fact that she looks very much like a Russian Jew.
Saul, What do Russian Jews look like? Would they
look like Danny Kaye, or Isaac Stern or Anna Pavlova?
Neither is a representative type. They just look like
PEOPLE.

Besides what difference does it make? Who, quite honestly,
cares about Gibson and his doings. In Australia we are just
glad that he has left our shores for good.

Agnes.
Russian Jews look like Jews who came from Russia. Also Georgian Jews look like Jews who came from Georgia and so on.

I know that Gibson is an uninformed person and a hateful anti Semitic scum, but this whole story is just so interesting.
----------

Dear Agnes,

Take for example Georgian Jews.

Jews have been living in Georgia for over 2500 years. Naturally in such a long span of time many gentiles converted to Judaism. Therefore they have brought their features to the Jewish community.
Climate is another factor, people living under similar conditions and locations for so long must have physical similarities. I remember growing up in Israel as a kid I had friends who immigrated from Lithuania . They were Jewish but with very strong Nordic features. Blonde hair, blue eyes , white skin. Looked very much Swedish. I also had friends that came from Yemen. They were Jews but they had dark skin and dark eyes, the same features of the people of Yemen. My friend today for example is from London, he was born and raised in London and his entire family was born and raised there. He looks very British even though he happens to be a Hassidic Jew. I have Hungarian friends too, and they look Hungarian even though they are Jews.
Every place the Jewish people stayed they got the features from the local people.

But the question remains how did the Jews living some thousands of years looked like?

How did King David look like, or King Saul or King Solomon , or Moses, or the Prophets, Josef, Jacob?

Our sources tell us that Our Father Abraham had blonde hair and blue eyes. The Torah in Genesis describes Joseph's great physical beauty.
King David had red hair and blue eyes. There were many instances in the Bible where famous Jews were described as having great beauty.
But there are beautiful Jews and not so beautiful Jews, just like there are beautiful gentiles and not so beautiful gentiles.

You must remember that the term Semitic comes from the word Sem. Sem was one of the Sons of Noah. He had three sons. Their names were, Sem, Ham, and Yefet.

Sem was the eldest and from him Abraham was Born. Ham was the Second and he is the father of all the inhabitants of Africa. Yefet was the father of 10 children, some of them are Yavan which was the progenitor of Greece, also Turki which was the progenitor of Turkey and Paras which was the progenitor of Iran.

It is very interesting that Greece, Turkey and Persia have the same Father, Yefet, Noah's smallest Child.

Yet these brothers had very different physical features.

Greece is in Europe and they tend to be more European looking. Turkey is closer to Europe but its majority rests in Asia therefore they have more of an Oriental Look. Iran rests in the Middle of Asia in a warm climate , but they are darker then their Greek and Turkish Brethren.

Anti Semitism has to do with the fact that the other children of Noah, that is Ham and Yefet , literally hate the Children of Sem.

Why do they hate the Children of Sem?

Sem was a direct line from Adam.

Adam was the first person created by God and the first one to converse with God too. Adam was very wise and he passed his wisdom and his knowledge of the one true god to Noah.
Noah then had passed it to his first born son, Sem. Sem had passed it down to his grandchild Abraham. Abraham passed the faith to his son Isaac and Isaac to Jacob and Jacob to the 12 Tribes of Israel, the Children of Israel. Therefore the Jewish people are the direct and unbroken link to that great transmission of the faith and the witnesses to the fact that God had created Human beings and not the other way around.

This great fact, doesn’t sit well with many people. They don't like the idea that God had created the universe and everything in it. Therefore these anti Semitic people wanted all throughout the generations to get rid of the Jewish people and ultimately, they thought that they will finally free themselves from God.

Esau Jacob's brother, the first known anti Semite wanted to murder Jacob because he didn’t like what Jacob stood for. He knew that Jacob was a part of the chain of transmission from Adam.

Later on Pharaoh , the dictator of Egypt said to Moses : "Who is your God that I will listen to him?"

Since he held himself as a god he couldn’t bare the fact to see an entire nation worshipping the real God of the universe, therefore he wanted to keep them in chains, so that they will be subjugated under him, and will not be the receivers of the faith of Adam.

So did all other dictators who saw themselves as gods. They had created their own self made, self serving gods, (pagans) just so that they wouldn’t ever worship the one true God that created everything.

The Jews stood for that ultimate truth called God. Their very existence was like thorns in the eyes of those that didn’t want to recognize god.

When the Roman General entered the Temple and came into the Holy of Holies he expected to see some statue or a figure of some sort. Upset that he didn’t see that, he turned around and left the Temple. He just couldn’t accept the idea of a god that he didn’t build or create himself. His idea of a god was what he makes out of him. The Jewish idea of a shapeless , bodiless, figureless, all encompassing spiritual singular god was unacceptable for the Romans.

But when Jesus came and introduced some Jewish ideas to the Romans , they couldn’t accept these ideas without staying with their pagan beliefs. That is why they turned Jesus into a physical god. Something completely unacceptable to Judaism and Jews. Jewish opposition to pagan beliefs and customs and their been the unbroken chain of the true faith was hated by the Romans and the Christians who followed them.

The Muslims have tried to come closer to the faith of Abraham by staying away from attributing physicality to God but their hatred comes from the fact that they don't want to recognize Israel's choseness and superiority. Abraham clearly Chose Isaac the father of the Jewish people to transmit the faith. God had made an everlasting covenant with the Jewish people on mount Sinai.

This fact the Muslim can't accept. They want to force themselves to be first, to be chosen, they can't admit Israel's standing and position, that's is why they hate the Jews.

If you think about it, race plays a very little part in Anti Semitism. Because when one thinks about it, all the people of the world came from the three Brothers, Sem, Ham and Yefet, who in turn were the children of Noah, who was the Son of Adam.

The essence of the hate comes from the gentile's word inability to accept the Jewish message of the one true singular God that created the universe and the Jewish people's choseness of been the people who were chosen for this task, the duty of telling all the world of this ultimate truth.

Anti Semitism on Racial Grounds is a fairly recent scientific zoological approach to hating Jews where the haters believe that there is no god and that they come from the Apes, and now they are the most advanced and developed apes in the world and therefore the Jews who happen to be the people who spearhead the fight against their backward ideology of racial division and zoological birth, must be the first ones to be get rid of, so their godless animalistic world view will spread un-interrupted.

That was the case with Nazi Germany. The Germans believed that they are the ‘Supreme Race’ which is of course baloney. Physically they are no superior then anyone else in the world.
They have their share of ugly people with long noses and funny faces. Not all Germans are born good looking , or healthy with no blemishes. Their particular appearance has to do with the Climate they are exposed to and where they live. If they would have lived in Spain then they would have looked like Spanish people. Their twisted fascination of their racial superiority lead them to believe that they truly came from the Apes, a Darwinian world view. They believed that nature was kind to them , and they were the first apes to get rid of the fluffy hair and ugly features and grow some blonde hair and blue eyes and white skin.

Only they forgot that many other peoples not Germanic had the same features, but they Germans thought that they had the most advanced blonde hair and the most sophisticated blue eyes.

In short they were worshiping themselves and their bodies instead of accepting God.

And as I said, in order to pave the way for their twisted and enormously dangerous world view they decided to get rid of those people who most went against their horrible beliefs, and these people were the Jews.

But thank God , Germany was added to the long list of peoples who lost miserably in their war against God and his messengers. They thought that by killing the messengers they would shut the door on God. But the exact opposite had occurred. Germany was destroyed. The Jews went back to their historic land after 2000 years and built many synagogues and Yeshivas were they study today even as we speak, the words of God been true to the ancient covenant and been the witnesses to the unbroken chain of faith all the way from Adam to our days.

Best Wishes,

Saul

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Agnes Selby » Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:38 am

Thank you Saul, very interesting concept. I accept your interpretation
with one reservation, i.e. I believe in evolution and I do not believe
that evolution, which is accepted by most people, is in any way
trying to destroy the concept of God.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:08 am

Chosen Barley wrote:It's a joke. That is a satirical site. Y'all go back to sleep now! :)

Click on "About Ponderings from Pluto" on the right hand side.


"About Ponderings from Pluto

This is a satirical blog. None of the news events here are real. Not even the one about Gene Simmons wanting to trademark the letter “E”. Still, it was amusing how irate some of his fans became."

I hope the Gibson story is satirical. These days things are so crazy, you have to look twice.
Cyril Ignatius

Cosima__J

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cosima__J » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:38 pm

Saul, I respect your love of God and God's word as found in the Bible. You have my admiration for that. But, nevertheless, there are many things in your post on this thread that I would have to take exception to. Just a few:

You said that Pharaoh "couldn't bare (sic) the fact to see an entire nation worshipping the real God". Read the Bible, Exodus chapter 1, verses 8 thru 10: "Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. He said to his people, 'Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against and escape from the land.' " So according to the Bible, it was for political reasons and the security of the Egyptian people that Pharaoh decided to oppress the Israelites. It was not for religious reasons.

You said Abraham was a blue-eyed blond. Where does that come from? As if it makes any difference about color of hair or eyes.

You claim that believers "turned Jesus into a physical god" in order to win over the Romans. What a bunch of poppycock!

Agnes Selby
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:43 am

Cosima__J wrote:Saul, I respect your love of God and God's word as found in the Bible. You have my admiration for that. But, nevertheless, there are many things in your post on this thread that I would have to take exception to. Just a few:

You said that Pharaoh "couldn't bare (sic) the fact to see an entire nation worshipping the real God". Read the Bible, Exodus chapter 1, verses 8 thru 10: "Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. He said to his people, 'Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against and escape from the land.' " So according to the Bible, it was for political reasons and the security of the Egyptian people that Pharaoh decided to oppress the Israelites. It was not for religious reasons.

You said Abraham was a blue-eyed blond. Where does that come from? As if it makes any difference about color of hair or eyes.

You claim that believers "turned Jesus into a physical god" in order to win over the Romans. What a bunch of poppycock!
-----------------

Cosima, as you know by now, I am not a bible
expert. However, I believe that the bible is not the work of one man
and scribes were busy on the bible for centuries. Let's say that Saul's interpretation
came from a different copy.

Anyway, no one knows for sure what the Pharaoh said. To the best of
my knowledge they did not have tape recorders in those days and neither
did they have printers to preserve the very words he uttered.

As I was born in Czechoslovakia, I believed for many years that the crucified
Christ, displayed in every town and village, was a man with blond hair and blue eyes -
sort of Slavonik looking. Who is to say that Abraham was not blond and blue-eyed,
again I believe they did not have cameras in those days.

All the stories of the Bible are very interesting. The only thing that truly buffles
me is the Adam and Eve story. Adam and Eve had two sons. One son killed the other,
so there was only one person on earth apart from Adam and Eve. Where
did all the "begetters" come from?
---------------

piston
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by piston » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:20 am

From in-vitro fertilization. So did Jesus!
Angel Gabriel was very busy back then!
Image
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:14 am

Agnes Selby wrote:
Cosima__J wrote:Saul, I respect your love of God and God's word as found in the Bible. You have my admiration for that. But, nevertheless, there are many things in your post on this thread that I would have to take exception to. Just a few:

You said that Pharaoh "couldn't bare (sic) the fact to see an entire nation worshipping the real God". Read the Bible, Exodus chapter 1, verses 8 thru 10: "Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. He said to his people, 'Look, the Israelite people are more numerous and more powerful than we. Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, or they will increase and, in the event of war, join our enemies and fight against and escape from the land.' " So according to the Bible, it was for political reasons and the security of the Egyptian people that Pharaoh decided to oppress the Israelites. It was not for religious reasons.

You said Abraham was a blue-eyed blond. Where does that come from? As if it makes any difference about color of hair or eyes.

You claim that believers "turned Jesus into a physical god" in order to win over the Romans. What a bunch of poppycock!
-----------------

Cosima, as you know by now, I am not a bible
expert. However, I believe that the bible is not the work of one man
and scribes were busy on the bible for centuries. Let's say that Saul's interpretation
came from a different copy.

Anyway, no one knows for sure what the Pharaoh said. To the best of
my knowledge they did not have tape recorders in those days and neither
did they have printers to preserve the very words he uttered.

As I was born in Czechoslovakia, I believed for many years that the crucified
Christ, displayed in every town and village, was a man with blond hair and blue eyes -
sort of Slavonik looking. Who is to say that Abraham was not blond and blue-eyed,
again I believe they did not have cameras in those days.

All the stories of the Bible are very interesting. The only thing that truly buffles
me is the Adam and Eve story. Adam and Eve had two sons. One son killed the other,
so there was only one person on earth apart from Adam and Eve. Where
did all the "begetters" come from?
---------------
They were born with twin sisters. They had children through their sisters.

I'll respond to the other questions later on...

Cosima__J

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cosima__J » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:11 am

Agnes, I was just trying to talk to Saul on his level. Actually, I don't take the Bible stories literally. The whole Moses in Egypt story is questionable. Here is a typical comment which casts doubt (from The National Geographic's book called "The Letter and the Scroll: What Archaeology Tells Us About The Bible") : "Archaeologist have long sounght evidence confirming those stirring biblical accounts. Egyptian inscriptions and depictions indicate that Asiatics from Canaan and surrounding lands in western Asia entered Eyppt as traders, captives, or migrants during the second millennium B.C.E., but no proof has surfaced that Hebrews lived there at that time. Some scholars doubt that an entire group of people with distinct customs and beliefs could have entered Egypt, descended into slavery, and escaped en masse without leaving any record of their presence or departure in Egyptian annals."

No one has a photo of Abraham. So true Agnes. Which makes my point: how would anyone know what color of hair and eyes Abraham had or, in fact, whether there even was an "Abraham". I just can't take these Bible stories literally. However, they do indicate a very long tradition of a heartfelt belief in God. I respect that!

Cyril Ignatius
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:19 pm

Cosima__J wrote:Agnes, I was just trying to talk to Saul on his level. Actually, I don't take the Bible stories literally. The whole Moses in Egypt story is questionable. Here is a typical comment which casts doubt (from The National Geographic's book called "The Letter and the Scroll: What Archaeology Tells Us About The Bible") : "Archaeologist have long sounght evidence confirming those stirring biblical accounts. Egyptian inscriptions and depictions indicate that Asiatics from Canaan and surrounding lands in western Asia entered Eyppt as traders, captives, or migrants during the second millennium B.C.E., but no proof has surfaced that Hebrews lived there at that time. Some scholars doubt that an entire group of people with distinct customs and beliefs could have entered Egypt, descended into slavery, and escaped en masse without leaving any record of their presence or departure in Egyptian annals."

No one has a photo of Abraham. So true Agnes. Which makes my point: how would anyone know what color of hair and eyes Abraham had or, in fact, whether there even was an "Abraham". I just can't take these Bible stories literally. However, they do indicate a very long tradition of a heartfelt belief in God. I respect that!
Cosima_J, You should seriously reexamine your assumptions here. The best archeology is continually reinforcing the fact that what the Old Testament says is true. While in certain cases, particular details may not be "provable" by science, overall there is an ongoing pattern today where stories and events once dismissed by modernis scientists or theologians as legend or metaphor are in fact proven to be all too real. Ancient cities and relics that modernists had consigned to the realm of metaphor are continually being unearthed. Saul is correct in reinforcing the authority of scriptures. It is the modernists, not the ancient Prophets who have much to answer for.

Any people can have stories, that regardless of their origin or merit, are held onto by the people. The Judeo-Christian scriptures are full of many stories, but they are far more than that. Central to the Judeo-Christian scriptures is real-life stories of God present in this world. They are real and they are true, the gravest mistake any human being can make is to doubt the historical reality of God's actions in the world through the events recounted in the Judeo-Christian scriptures.
Cyril Ignatius

karlhenning
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by karlhenning » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:32 pm

Cyril Ignatius wrote:Any people can have stories, that regardless of their origin or merit, are held onto by the people. The Judeo-Christian scriptures are full of many stories, but they are far more than that.
Many anti-religionists fondly imagine that the Bible is "just [another] fairy-story on which an irrational religion is based." But the fact is (as you here address) there is a concern for historical accuracy in the Bible which sets it entirely apart from practically any other sacredly-held writ.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

nut-job
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:06 pm

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by nut-job » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:44 pm

Cyril Ignatius wrote:Cosima_J, You should seriously reexamine your assumptions here. The best archeology is continually reinforcing the fact that what the Old Testament says is true.
That is a comfortable fairy tale, at best.

This is an interesting read.

Image

Cosima__J

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cosima__J » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:17 pm

Yes, that is indeed an interesting book. I would recommend to Cyril I. that he get that book and read it cover to cover and then tell me again that I should seriously re-examine my assumptions. I get the magazine called Biblical Archaeology and I would agree with Cyril that archaeologists have uncovered artifacts and structures which shed light on the early Israelites. But they have not found (nor will they ever find) "Noah's Ark" or proof of the existence of an individual named Abraham. That does not mean that we can't learn some valuable lessons about how to live our lives by reading the Bible.

When I was growing up, I accepted all of the Bible stories as an historical account. Now that I've read from many sources such as The Bible Unearthed, I can no longer take things quite so literally. However, I still honor the tradition represented by the Bible and I am a believing Christian.

Cyril Ignatius
Posts: 1035
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cyril Ignatius » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:51 pm

nut-job wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:Cosima_J, You should seriously reexamine your assumptions here. The best archeology is continually reinforcing the fact that what the Old Testament says is true.
That is a comfortable fairy tale, at best.

This is an interesting read.

Image
I'm sure it is an interesting read. :lol: Just what we need, yet another candidate for the atheist's bible. Atheists have been trying to kill God since the days of the Old Testament Prophets. They never succeed, because God refuses to abandon his people where even a single holy person remains.

The real significance of the Bible resides in Heaven and in the Holy Spirit here on earth, and cannot be "unearthed" as they say.
Cyril Ignatius

karlhenning
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by karlhenning » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:34 pm

Cyril Ignatius wrote:I'm sure it is an interesting read. :lol: Just what we need, yet another candidate for the atheist's bible. Atheists have been trying to kill God since the days of the Old Testament Prophets.
nut-job though The Da Vinci Code was a documentary . . . .

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

nut-job
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:06 pm

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by nut-job » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:38 pm

karlhenning wrote:nut-job though The Da Vinci Code was a documentary . . . .
I'll be damned if I know what that's supposed to mean.

Cosima__J

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cosima__J » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:54 pm

Cyril, go to amazon and read the write up about The Bible Unearthed. I have read the book and the authors are not atheists. You simply don't know what you are talking about when you claim the authors are somehow proposing an "atheist bible"

Also for Cyril (and others), check out this website to understand the gist of Finkelstein's and Silberman's book:

http://www.bibleinterp.com/commentary/F ... 022001.htm

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:23 pm

Cosima__J wrote:Agnes, I was just trying to talk to Saul on his level. Actually, I don't take the Bible stories literally. The whole Moses in Egypt story is questionable. Here is a typical comment which casts doubt (from The National Geographic's book called "The Letter and the Scroll: What Archaeology Tells Us About The Bible") : "Archaeologist have long sounght evidence confirming those stirring biblical accounts. Egyptian inscriptions and depictions indicate that Asiatics from Canaan and surrounding lands in western Asia entered Eyppt as traders, captives, or migrants during the second millennium B.C.E., but no proof has surfaced that Hebrews lived there at that time. Some scholars doubt that an entire group of people with distinct customs and beliefs could have entered Egypt, descended into slavery, and escaped en masse without leaving any record of their presence or departure in Egyptian annals."

No one has a photo of Abraham. So true Agnes. Which makes my point: how would anyone know what color of hair and eyes Abraham had or, in fact, whether there even was an "Abraham". I just can't take these Bible stories literally. However, they do indicate a very long tradition of a heartfelt belief in God. I respect that!
There are so many things that need to be clarified for you so you wouldn't reach wrong conclusions.

One of the most important things that you need to know is that the Jews didn't receive ONLY the Written Torah on mount Sinai but also the Oral Torah.
This is so important please pay attention. Without the Oral Torah, one can't perform any of the Commandments mentioned in the Torah.
Thus, Moses got the Written Torah and the Explanation of how to perform each and every Commandment from God himself. This Oral tradition was handed over from one generation to another from mouth to mouth, Teacher to student until the Great Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi ' The President' decided to put it down in ink and paper because he feared that it would be forgotten.

The Great Rabbi called this volume the 'MISHNA'.
Very general codes of oral law written down. But further on even the great debates and question and answer sessions based on The MISHNA between the great Scholars of the Time were put on paper. This was called the TALMUD.

It is a central and pivotal requirement for every Jew to believe in the authenticity of both the Written and Oral Torah. Remember that Judaism can't work without both.

About 2000 years ago, there was a Jewish Sect, a very small minority that decided not to accept the validity of the Oral Torah. Today, this sect doesn’t exist, it disappeared long time ago.
But Christianity came in and filled in the their missing shoes. The Christian religion only accepts the validity of the Written Torah but not the Oral. They consider the Written Torah 'Holy' but do not care for any of the Commandments. Keeping of the Sabbath Holy and adhering to the dietary laws, and Jewish Festivals is completely ignored.

A few questions are raised from this Christian position:

1. How can anyone hold something to be Holy with Devine origin and yet completely ignore it?

2. How can human beings decide that the Laws that were given to the Jews on mount Sinai are no longer effective?

These Christian inventions are based on the wrong understanding of the Nature of the Torah and the greatness of the most pivotal moment in human history, the first meeting of God with his people and his giving of the Torah to them.

It is written in the Torah very clearly the following : "HuKat Olam Le'Doroteichem" this verse talks about God telling the Jewish people that he is given them the Torah which is an Ever Lasting Covenant. Last time I checked the words Ever Lasting means :Forever and eternity. Clearly God means to say that the Torah is forever, all its laws are applicable forever, and the covenant he made with the Jewish people is an EVER LASTING COVENANT.

The Christians 1300 years after the Jews received the Torah from God come and say that yes, it's the Truth, the God of Israel did make a covenant with the Jewish people, but it's not an ever lasting covenant and also all the Commandments in the Torah are not applicable anymore.

I and millions of my Jewish Brethren ask simply, what happened here?

The Torah says ' an ever lasting covenant', the Christians after 1300 years say 'not an ever lasting covenant'.

Amazing how can anyone dare to erase the words of God and replace them with his own ideas. Shocking arrogance.

About the Authenticity of the Torah:

The best example for its authenticity is the fact that if it wasn’t true then No Human Beings would have been willing to follow and accept it.

Remember there are 613 commandments in the Torah, no human being will take upon himself such a responsibility without believing that what he does is the ultimate truth.

Also remember, the Jewish people have been blamed all throughout history for many things, but been stupid was never one of the accusations.

You need to read about who were the leaders and Scholars of the Jewish people. Some Scientists are proud that they have one or two degrees, but can anyone of them stand against the Rambam(Rabbi Moshe Ben Mimon of Spain lived 850 years ago) who surrounded all the wisdoms?

He was a Torah Genius, the Chief Doctor of Kings, an accomplished astronomer, a famous philosopher , a hugely prolific author, a master mathematician, so great he was that Jews have coined the following passage : 'From Moses until Moses no one stood like Moses'.

The Rambam's (Maimonides) inventions and theories on medicines are still studied in Universities and colleges all around the world, and he is considered to be one of the Greatest Rabbis the Jewish people ever had, and he lived only 850 years ago. But we didn’t even speak about the Tanaaem and the Amoraeem, the great Scholars from the Time of the Mishna and Talmud. We don't even have the means to understand their greatness.

But today we have ' Scientists' self proclaimed 'know it alls' who use a broad brush and try to brush off 4000 years of dedicated history, traditions, customs, and Wisdom and say that this is all some Jewish conspiracy. Well, what ever these scientists have invented the Great Leaders of the Jewish people could have done just by uttering a few 'NAMES', Holy combinations of the Hebrew Alphabet. These Great ancient Jews knew Kabalah, Jewish Mysticism. By uttering these 'Names' they could cause the angels to do their will, also to resurrect dead people and bring them back to life. Also from the Power of this wisdom they could travel in time, and be at their desired location anywhere in the world in a matter of seconds. They also knew the secret of 'Space' known in Hebrew 'Sod H'aMakom'.

So these scientists degrees and accomplishments do not impress the Jewish community to follow their twisted world views. We have greater people to look up to and follow and believe in.

They are our guides and teachers, no one else.

maskedman
Posts: 147
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by maskedman » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:14 pm

Hopefully he will go back to Australia for his honeymoon...It would be great if he decided to stay there....possibly open a chabad......

Robert

Brendan

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Brendan » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:18 pm

He's American - we ain't naturally that silly!

maskedman
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Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by maskedman » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:35 pm

Brendan wrote:He's American - we ain't naturally that silly!
I always thought he was from Australia. Maybe it was the Mad Max films that made me think that.....I did not know him but was introduced to him in Hong Kong in 1987. Seemed a bit odd to me....

Robert

Agnes Selby
Author of Constanze Mozart's biography
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Location: Australia

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:05 pm

I think he came to Australia with his American parents and then left.
He married an Australian girl, poor woman, and I don't
mean poor financially.

Agnes Selby
Author of Constanze Mozart's biography
Posts: 5568
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Location: Australia

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:10 pm

SaulChanukah wrote:
Cosima__J wrote:Agnes, I was just trying to talk to Saul on his level. Actually, I don't take the Bible stories literally. The whole Moses in Egypt story is questionable. Here is a typical comment which casts doubt (from The National Geographic's book called "The Letter and the Scroll: What Archaeology Tells Us About The Bible") : "Archaeologist have long sounght evidence confirming those stirring biblical accounts. Egyptian inscriptions and depictions indicate that Asiatics from Canaan and surrounding lands in western Asia entered Eyppt as traders, captives, or migrants during the second millennium B.C.E., but no proof has surfaced that Hebrews lived there at that time. Some scholars doubt that an entire group of people with distinct customs and beliefs could have entered Egypt, descended into slavery, and escaped en masse without leaving any record of their presence or departure in Egyptian annals."

No one has a photo of Abraham. So true Agnes. Which makes my point: how would anyone know what color of hair and eyes Abraham had or, in fact, whether there even was an "Abraham". I just can't take these Bible stories literally. However, they do indicate a very long tradition of a heartfelt belief in God. I respect that!
There are so many things that need to be clarified for you so you wouldn't reach wrong conclusions.

One of the most important things that you need to know is that the Jews didn't receive ONLY the Written Torah on mount Sinai but also the Oral Torah.
This is so important please pay attention. Without the Oral Torah, one can't perform any of the Commandments mentioned in the Torah.
Thus, Moses got the Written Torah and the Explanation of how to perform each and every Commandment from God himself. This Oral tradition was handed over from one generation to another from mouth to mouth, Teacher to student until the Great Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi ' The President' decided to put it down in ink and paper because he feared that it would be forgotten.

The Great Rabbi called this volume the 'MISHNA'.
Very general codes of oral law written down. But further on even the great debates and question and answer sessions based on The MISHNA between the great Scholars of the Time were put on paper. This was called the TALMUD.

It is a central and pivotal requirement for every Jew to believe in the authenticity of both the Written and Oral Torah. Remember that Judaism can't work without both.

About 2000 years ago, there was a Jewish Sect, a very small minority that decided not to accept the validity of the Oral Torah. Today, this sect doesn’t exist, it disappeared long time ago.
But Christianity came in and filled in the their missing shoes. The Christian religion only accepts the validity of the Written Torah but not the Oral. They consider the Written Torah 'Holy' but do not care for any of the Commandments. Keeping of the Sabbath Holy and adhering to the dietary laws, and Jewish Festivals is completely ignored.

A few questions are raised from this Christian position:

1. How can anyone hold something to be Holy with Devine origin and yet completely ignore it?

2. How can human beings decide that the Laws that were given to the Jews on mount Sinai are no longer effective?

These Christian inventions are based on the wrong understanding of the Nature of the Torah and the greatness of the most pivotal moment in human history, the first meeting of God with his people and his giving of the Torah to them.

It is written in the Torah very clearly the following : "HuKat Olam Le'Doroteichem" this verse talks about God telling the Jewish people that he is given them the Torah which is an Ever Lasting Covenant. Last time I checked the words Ever Lasting means :Forever and eternity. Clearly God means to say that the Torah is forever, all its laws are applicable forever, and the covenant he made with the Jewish people is an EVER LASTING COVENANT.

The Christians 1300 years after the Jews received the Torah from God come and say that yes, it's the Truth, the God of Israel did make a covenant with the Jewish people, but it's not an ever lasting covenant and also all the Commandments in the Torah are not applicable anymore.

I and millions of my Jewish Brethren ask simply, what happened here?

The Torah says ' an ever lasting covenant', the Christians after 1300 years say 'not an ever lasting covenant'.

Amazing how can anyone dare to erase the words of God and replace them with his own ideas. Shocking arrogance.

About the Authenticity of the Torah:

The best example for its authenticity is the fact that if it wasn’t true then No Human Beings would have been willing to follow and accept it.

Remember there are 613 commandments in the Torah, no human being will take upon himself such a responsibility without believing that what he does is the ultimate truth.

Also remember, the Jewish people have been blamed all throughout history for many things, but been stupid was never one of the accusations.

You need to read about who were the leaders and Scholars of the Jewish people. Some Scientists are proud that they have one or two degrees, but can anyone of them stand against the Rambam(Rabbi Moshe Ben Mimon of Spain lived 850 years ago) who surrounded all the wisdoms?

He was a Torah Genius, the Chief Doctor of Kings, an accomplished astronomer, a famous philosopher , a hugely prolific author, a master mathematician, so great he was that Jews have coined the following passage : 'From Moses until Moses no one stood like Moses'.

The Rambam's (Maimonides) inventions and theories on medicines are still studied in Universities and colleges all around the world, and he is considered to be one of the Greatest Rabbis the Jewish people ever had, and he lived only 850 years ago. But we didn’t even speak about the Tanaaem and the Amoraeem, the great Scholars from the Time of the Mishna and Talmud. We don't even have the means to understand their greatness.

But today we have ' Scientists' self proclaimed 'know it alls' who use a broad brush and try to brush off 4000 years of dedicated history, traditions, customs, and Wisdom and say that this is all some Jewish conspiracy. Well, what ever these scientists have invented the Great Leaders of the Jewish people could have done just by uttering a few 'NAMES', Holy combinations of the Hebrew Alphabet. These Great ancient Jews knew Kabalah, Jewish Mysticism. By uttering these 'Names' they could cause the angels to do their will, also to resurrect dead people and bring them back to life. Also from the Power of this wisdom they could travel in time, and be at their desired location anywhere in the world in a matter of seconds. They also knew the secret of 'Space' known in Hebrew 'Sod H'aMakom'.

So these scientists degrees and accomplishments do not impress the Jewish community to follow their twisted world views. We have greater people to look up to and follow and believe in.

They are our guides and teachers, no one else.

Saul, thank you for all the information.

Brendan

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Brendan » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:16 pm

Under the Old Covenant, in times when the prophetic word was silent, there was the temptation to arrange God’s commands as a Torah, making a kind of system and “law” out of them, although the best Israelites were always aware that there was something presumptuous about this. Faced with Jesus Christ, however, it would be utterly fantastic to attempt such a thing. Separating his deeds and words from his spontaneous and sovereign person would be in flagrant contradiction with these same deeds and words: they are “spirit and life”, written not on stone or parchment but in “fleshy tables of the heart” (2 Cor 3:3). If there is to be a Holy Writ to bear witness to the words and deeds of Jesus, it must continually point away from the letter and the system and toward what is embodied, by God’s spirit, in Jesus Christ.
von Balthasar, Hans Urs – Truth is Symphonic [Ignatius Press 1972, trans. Harrison, Graham1987, p 30]

Cosima__J

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by Cosima__J » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:28 pm

Saul, again I will say that I admire and respect your love of God. Also, Christians owe a huge debt of gratitude to the Jewish people. But I believe in the New Covenant. I hope that we can just "agree to disagree" and still love each other. OK?

SaulChanukah

Re: Mel Gibson to convert to Judaism

Post by SaulChanukah » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:27 am

Cosima__J wrote:Saul, again I will say that I admire and respect your love of God. Also, Christians owe a huge debt of gratitude to the Jewish people. But I believe in the New Covenant. I hope that we can just "agree to disagree" and still love each other. OK?
Yes we can, Cosima.

Best Wishes,

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