There's been a lesson here for me

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Barry
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Barry » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:27 am

Agnes Selby wrote:I could fully understand what Teresa said in her first post.
But then I am just a foreigner looking from outside into the
vast American complexity.
Although this should be obvious, I'll come out and say that in fairness, not all liberals resort to using emotion in the form of boiling an issue down to one side caring and the other being heartless, as if there are no other important factors to consider, and not all of them cast the opposition's dissent in terms of racism to the same extent. While I was annoyed with Teresa for the latter, I wouldn't say she's normally guilty of the former. On the other hand, some of our posters are, and on a fairly regular basis.

And yes, we have problems in terms of not always using reason with some of the more extreme right wing posts on here too.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

DavidRoss
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by DavidRoss » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:51 am

MarkC wrote:.....and I still don't know what we're talking about.

I guess I'm the only one who finds it hard to discuss something without knowing what we're talking about. :lol:

Does everyone else know what the OP was about?
I see...you keep trying to relate it to some external event, a "trigger" of sorts, instead of relating to it as an expression of feelings, about the poster's internal state, his personal response, a rumination that's almost entirely about him and not at all about what may have triggered it, if anything other than his own stuff, the locus of feelings and attitudes that he brings to whatever event he happens to witness, the subjective filter through which he interprets every objective experience.

Does that help? :)

P.S. You've not been here long but if you stick around you'll find that most of us have no trouble whatsoever discussing things without knowing what we're talking about! :wink:
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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MarkC
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by MarkC » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:56 am

DavidRoss wrote:
MarkC wrote:.....and I still don't know what we're talking about.....
Does everyone else know what the OP was about?
I see...you keep trying to relate it to some external event, a "trigger" of sorts.....
Does that help? :)
No. :lol:

Because there was a trigger of sorts.

I mean look: "......How would you feel, in real life, if a person just didn't respond to your presence?!
But apparently this technology allows people to be anti-social all they want. "
DavidRoss wrote:P.S. You've not been here long but if you stick around you'll find that most of us have no trouble whatsoever discussing things without knowing what we're talking about! :wink:
I only do that in academic settings. :lol:

karlhenning
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by karlhenning » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:58 am

(* chortle *)

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
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HoustonDavid
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:15 pm

Is it possible that OP stands for Obstinate Plebian, which describes far too many people,
especially if you throw in Unsophisticated. Of course, I would never describe anyone on
this board in those terms. :mrgreen:

Mark, I believe we are all trying, rather unsuccessfully, to deal with Jacque's angst over
the meaning of being members of this forum if we can't seem to agree or change our minds
about anything. I believe the operative word is "angst". :wink:
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

living_stradivarius
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:25 pm

Transformation and change comes with life experience. Forum threads are generally rehashes of past experiences, not new ones ;)
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DavidRoss
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by DavidRoss » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:27 pm

MarkC wrote:No. :lol:

Because there was a trigger of sorts.
No doubt there was. But the trigger doesn't matter, because it's not about the trigger, but about Piston's feelings: right, wrong, rational, or nuts...it just doesn't matter whether anyone (including him!) regards them as a "rational" response to the event, whether he interpreted the event correctly as some sort of slur or whether the other(s) just aren't as absorbed with him as he is, or whether the event even happened at all! What matters is how he feels about it, and that is the content of the post.

Isn't this fun?! :D

BTW, is it a symptom of paranoia or just narcissism to think everything has to do with you? :wink:
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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HoustonDavid
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:34 pm

It doesn't? :shock:
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

karlhenning
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by karlhenning » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:45 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:It doesn't? :shock:
Can't be sure. And if you reflect on the fundamental interconnectedness of all things . . . on some level, it may really be about you ; )

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

MarkC
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by MarkC » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:59 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:......I believe we are all trying, rather unsuccessfully, to deal with Jacque's angst over the meaning of being members of this forum if we can't seem to agree or change our minds about anything. I believe the operative word is "angst". :wink:
Seemed to me it was more about modes of interaction and social nicety -- particularly, something that seemed rude to him on another thread.

But indeed people treated it pretty quickly as something about political views.

I didn't get that at all.

There will only be one way for us to find out......and I think we're not gonna. :shock:

BTW.....since everything has to do with you (or me, I'm not sure)..... :lol: .....let me take the opportunity to ask:

What's the deal with those LINE BREAKS in all your posts?

living_stradivarius
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by living_stradivarius » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:05 pm

MarkC wrote:
HoustonDavid wrote:......I believe we are all trying, rather unsuccessfully, to deal with Jacque's angst over the meaning of being members of this forum if we can't seem to agree or change our minds about anything. I believe the operative word is "angst". :wink:
Seemed to me it was more about modes of interaction and social nicety -- particularly, something that seemed rude to him on another thread.

But indeed people treated it pretty quickly as something about political views.

I didn't get that at all.

There will only be one way for us to find out......and I think we're not gonna. :shock:

BTW.....since everything has to do with you (or me, I'm not sure)..... :lol: .....let me take the opportunity to ask:

What's the deal with those LINE BREAKS in all your posts?
CMG heuristics:

Jacques tries to convince AGW nonbelievers AGW is happening in Maine. AGW nonbelievers respond a few times, and not too long after the AGW threads go cold because new threads pile up. AGW discussions typically involve a tug of war between the two predominant political camps, naturally that migrates here :D. After a while, this thread will go cold too. We move on, like a school of fish, pack of dogs, etc.
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MarkC
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by MarkC » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:15 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:CMG heuristics:
Jacques tries to convince AGW nonbelievers AGW is happening in Maine. AGW nonbelievers respond a few times, and not too long after the AGW threads go cold because new threads pile up. AGW discussions typically involve a tug of war between the two predominant political camps, naturally that migrates here :D. After a while, this thread will go cold too. We move on, like a school of fish, pack of dogs, etc.
I had to look up "AGW." :lol:

BTW.....if they go cold, doesn't that help solve the issue? :mrgreen:

P.S. I still don't know what we're talking about. And I think we aren't. 8)

HoustonDavid
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:29 pm

Mark:

I once asked Agnes Selby how she achieved such short lines in her paragraphs. I thought
they were much easier to follow and read because they were relatively short, like those in
a newspaper or magazine column. She admitted it was no secret Microsoft Word program
or anything like that; it was simply a self-imposed LINE BREAK, as you say. I still like the
concept of shorter, easier-to-read lines, so I do the same thing. I measure my lines about
an inch from the "Normal" box above the response box. Agnes obviously prefers a shorter
line length. It is sometimes a pain if I want to add or edit something, but I like the relative
ease of reading the shorter lines. My old eyes and brain sometimes give out at the end of
a page-wide line with big words and sophisticated sentence structure.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

MarkC
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by MarkC » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:34 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:....I thought they were much easier to follow and read because they were relatively short, like those in a newspaper or magazine column.....
I guess it's subjective. :)

To me, that aspect makes no difference, BUT......the shortened lines make our own posts take up more "space" when we quote one of yours, and as you may know, I have a thing about that.

So............maybe you didn't notice, but whenever I quote a post of yours, I take the time to delete all the artificial breaks, so we won't be taking up so much space. :)

It is for posts like this that my sig becomes very handy:
Don't expect me to be sane, I'm playing Scriabin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ySs4aQ8 ... D6&index=0

piston
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by piston » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:51 pm

Of course it's all about me! The Pub is the couch. CMGers who have contributed to the thread are all therapists.

Best part of the deal is that it's free therapy. OTH, it hasn't helped me a bit. But that's not unusual with therapy sessions.

And that's the final part of this lesson: if the Pub is more like a place for personal défoulement than it is a "community" for social interaction, then it must serve as a home for numerous aspiring therapists.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

absinthe
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by absinthe » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:13 pm

piston wrote:Of course it's all about me! The Pub is the couch. CMGers who have contributed to the thread are all therapists.

Best part of the deal is that it's free therapy. OTH, it hasn't helped me a bit. But that's not unusual with therapy sessions.

And that's the final part of this lesson: if the Pub is more like a place for personal défoulement than it is a "community" for social interaction, then it must serve as a home for numerous aspiring therapists.
I'm aFreud so.

Can you give us your address to send the invoices, please?

HoustonDavid
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:14 pm

Mark:

I can't use Scriabin as an excuse since I don't play and I don't think he composed for
voice. I did notice that you had somehow elongated my line length; now I know how
you achieved that miracle. I wasn't aware that length of posts was a concern. Yours
are almost univerally short, and people like Brenden, Corlyss, and Barry tend to be
longer in general, so it doesn't seem to be a universal concern. Mine is done strictly
to make my posts more readable. To me, readability is the issue.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

Barry
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Barry » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:16 pm

living_stradivarius wrote: Jacques tries to convince AGW nonbelievers AGW is happening in Maine. AGW nonbelievers respond a few times, and not too long after the AGW threads go cold because new threads pile up. AGW discussions typically involve a tug of war between the two predominant political camps, naturally that migrates here :D. After a while, this thread will go cold too. We move on, like a school of fish, pack of dogs, etc.
If the global warming threads have gone cold, it's probably got a lot to do with Corlyss being temporarily off the board. She provided much of the material for those threads.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Chalkperson
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:44 pm

HoustonDavid wrote:Mark:

I can't use Scriabin as an excuse since I don't play and I don't think he composed for
voice. I did notice that you had somehow elongated my line length; now I know how
you achieved that miracle. I wasn't aware that length of posts was a concern. Yours
are almost univerally short, and people like Brenden, Corlyss, and Barry tend to be
longer in general, so it doesn't seem to be a universal concern. Mine is done strictly
to make my posts more readable. To me, readability is the issue.
Mark like to tell us all how he think the Site and our Posts should look, ignore him... :wink:
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

DavidRoss
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by DavidRoss » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:21 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
HoustonDavid wrote:Mark:

I can't use Scriabin as an excuse since I don't play and I don't think he composed for
voice. I did notice that you had somehow elongated my line length; now I know how
you achieved that miracle. I wasn't aware that length of posts was a concern. Yours
are almost univerally short, and people like Brenden, Corlyss, and Barry tend to be
longer in general, so it doesn't seem to be a universal concern. Mine is done strictly
to make my posts more readable. To me, readability is the issue.
Mark like to tell us all how he think the Site and our Posts should look, ignore him... :wink:
To each his own, or live and let live. Not that there's as much of that spirit of tolerance for differences around here as we might hope for, when folks can't express a view outside the prevailing orthodoxy without someone else slandering them as heartless or racist or obstructionist or so forth.

Ah, well...despite its intent, if any (!), Jacques's thread here actually seems to be promoting somewhat improved "brotherly" feeling among CMG's denizens. No reason we can't all get along. Wouldn't that be a shocker for Corlyss to see when she returns from her sabbatical? :shock:
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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piston
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by piston » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:15 pm

And that's the idea. Forget about the hugs and let's go play some horseshoes!!
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

rwetmore
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by rwetmore » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:48 pm

DavidRoss wrote:To me you come across as a fact-based rationalist somewhat impatient with those who are a little slower and whose opinions are based on ideology rather than information. You seem admirably direct and straightforward, which I see as a virtue...though I'm well aware that those enmeshed in systems of mutual codependency cosigning one another's bullsh*t may feel threatened by that and might label it rude or pompous in a defensive effort to negate the threat.

As your successive post indicates, you've little respect in general for the intellectual underpinnings of "liberal" positions, but given the painful lack of cognitive content in most posts here espousing such positions, that's understandable--but you should be wary of prejudging future offerings based on past performance. Still, I know from personal experience on this site how hard it is to keep your heart open to snotty jerks who stereotype you and slander you and turn every attempt at rational discourse into a name-calling contest, and who persist in such sh*tty behavior even when they get called on it, often acting as if they are the wounded victims instead of the viciously narrow-minded aggressors.
Interesting comments. I think one of the things that may irritate and bother those who generally disagree with me is that I don't say or advocate things unless I really know what I'm talking about. I make a conscious effort to not believe in or accept things unless I've thoroughly thought them through, which is why I can always back up what I say - often in elaborate detail. Too many people here have become slaves to their ideology and/or political party, and as a result end up entrapping themselves into believing what is illogical and unsupportable. This entrapment also manifests itself into a lot of self-delusional behavior - much of which is on full display in this thread (for those savvy enough to recognize it).
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

Teresa B
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Teresa B » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:26 pm

rwetmore wrote:This entrapment also manifests itself into a lot of self-delusional behavior - much of which is on full display in this thread (for those savvy enough to recognize it).
Everyone indulges in some self-delusional behavior, and the most savvy will eventually concede it in themselves as well.
:wink:
Teresa
"We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." ~ The Cheshire Cat

Author of the novel "Creating Will"

piston
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by piston » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:37 pm

This entrapment also manifests itself into a lot of self-delusional behavior - much of which is on full display in this thread (for those savvy enough to recognize it)
I bet I could beat you at horseshoes ... and cribbage, and pool. How about that? It's a CMG challenge!

I won't even engage the rest of your comment....

Lighten up, man!
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

MarkC
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by MarkC » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:40 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Mark like to tell us all how he think the Site and our Posts should look, ignore him... :wink:
Better watch it or I'll break out the smileys!! [smiley suppressed]
Don't expect me to be sane, I'm playing Scriabin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ySs4aQ8 ... D6&index=0

DavidRoss
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by DavidRoss » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:22 pm

At the risk of ruining my reputation as a hard-ass around here, let me just say that this thread is giving me a case of the warm fuzzies. Next thing you know I'll be singing Kumbaya and telling y'all how much I loves youse guys! :D 8) :wink: (smileys in full regalia!)
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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piston
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by piston » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:41 pm

Wonderful! Let's have a fine time at the county fair. It's a very old American tradition.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

NancyElla
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by NancyElla » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:42 pm

We need partners for the 3-legged races. . .
"This is happiness; to be dissolved into something complete and great." --Willa Cather

rwetmore
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by rwetmore » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:44 pm

piston wrote:I bet I could beat you at horseshoes ... and cribbage, and pool. How about that? It's a CMG challenge!
I bet you could too. I'm not very good at any of those things.
piston wrote:Lighten up, man!
I'm way ahead of you there. :wink:
"Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history."
- Aldous Huxley

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing has happened."
-Winston Churchill

“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one!”
–Charles Mackay

"It doesn't matter how smart you are - if you don't stop and think."
-Thomas Sowell

"It's one of the functions of the mainstream news media to fact-check political speech and where there are lies, to reveal them to the voters."
-John F. (of CMG)

NancyElla
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by NancyElla » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:54 pm

It could make for very unusual after-dinner entertainment at the next CMG meetup. . .
"This is happiness; to be dissolved into something complete and great." --Willa Cather

piston
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by piston » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:03 pm

I have this fantasy about rwetmore and me, by the camp fire, late on a beautiful June evening, with our mutual drinks, not another soul around, trying to humor each other. A number of topics would have to be off limits. But I bet it's still possible.

Wonder where this conversation would go? Childhood disasters? College experiences? Marital moments of truth? Discoveries (oooh, that's a dangerous area...)? How to best generate a gorgeous camp fire? Yeah, I like that one.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

MarkC
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by MarkC » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:18 pm

DavidRoss wrote:....... :D 8) :wink: (smileys in full regalia!)
Attaboy!!! :lol:

MarkC
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by MarkC » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:18 pm

NancyElla wrote:We need partners for the 3-legged races. . .
I pick NancyElla. :lol:
Don't expect me to be sane, I'm playing Scriabin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ySs4aQ8 ... D6&index=0

piston
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by piston » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:43 pm

What is it, this attitude, this self-restraint, we automatically obey to when we acknowledge that it is not the place or time to let it all out: personal opinions, passions, confrontational positions, "planting our heels" with no more diplomatic tact than a young President Truman at Potsdam? We do so in the presence of a superior, of a generous host, of our wife's parents, etc. But we also practice self-restraint whenever and wherever respect is being expressed. The absence of such self-restraint is just the opposite expression.

But wait! I see younger people every day who couldn't give a hoot about respect and, for that reason, cannot begin to understand the need for self-restraint. They don't yield space and force you off the path. They look angry and don't care about anything. They're ready for a fight! They couldn't care less who you are and, unless you serve their needs, you're nothing, less than nothing. They drive right into reserved parking spaces, get out of their car, and with their pants hanging down and shabby look, just walk off talking loudly about that "f...ing crazy chick" they had to deal with the night before.

So, what I'm I talking about? What's the point? Is this all about me? Or is it about the degradation of civilized intercourse?
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

Barry
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Barry » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:53 pm

piston wrote: But wait! I see younger people every day who couldn't give a hoot about respect and, for that reason, cannot begin to understand the need for self-restraint. They don't yield space and force you off the path. They look angry and don't care about anything. They're ready for a fight! They couldn't care less who you are and, unless you serve their needs, you're nothing, less than nothing. They drive right into reserved parking spaces, get out of their car, and with their pants hanging down and shabby look, just walk off talking loudly about that "f...ing crazy chick" they had to deal with the night before.

So, what I'm I talking about? What's the point? Is this all about me? Or is it about the degradation of civilized intercourse?
I try talking about things like that all the time on here. Most people either don't care or apparently have no interest in discussing it for whatever reason. It's the kind of thing I'm referring to when I say that while we've progressed in some obvious ways, in other aspects of society, we've steadily regressed since the sixties. There are consequences to making a lifestyle of rejecting the "establishment" in all ways possible.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
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BWV 1080
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:00 pm

piston wrote:I have this fantasy about rwetmore and me, by the camp fire, late on a beautiful June evening,

So you have been watching Brokeback Mountain again?

HoustonDavid
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by HoustonDavid » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:15 pm

I am more and more convinced, as someone here pointed out, we all see life through our
individual prisms. I am an optimist by day, which means I see primarily the good in people
around me; by night I am a pessimist and paranoid and keep myself awake worrying that
the world is coming to an end. It always looks better in the morning because my optimism
returns to save me. If you see that people generally strive to be good, you generally enjoy
and appreciate them; if you see them taking handicap parking and bumping people off the
sidewalk, of course you will generally have a lot of bad days.

It is the lens through wihich we observe life speaking to us, and it is probably unalterable
for most of us after we reach adulthood. Of course, there are "good" people who exemplify
the best in humanity, and there are others who show how base people can be. They are all
out there; it is how we view them, filtering them through our life perceptions, that gives us
our view on the world. Personally, I like my view, but then I am blessed to be an optimist, at
least so long as I can get to sleep at night.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

jack stowaway
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by jack stowaway » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:54 am

My lessons learned on this board have been quite different (from those voiced in the original post) and invariably humbling.

I'm reminded, daily, of my lack of knowledge and of the fact that, as a generalist, I don't really have an area of expertise to call upon. I lack, to my increasing awareness and chagrin, a field of specialisation and the attendant mastery of facts that goes along with such specialisation.

For example, I like biology and read quite a bit on the subject --but as an educated layman. I couldn't hold a candle to Teresa in terms of factual knowledge, which is why I admire so many of her posts. For enlightenment in law and the American Constitution, I look to Ralph. For insight into US politics, Corlyss. I'm sure there are other specialists here, but those are the first that come to mind.

It makes me wish I had devoted myself to one subject in university. Alas, I was naively interested in everything and took many different courses simply out of interest. I read widely rather than deeply.

Thus, this forum is mostly a resounding education in the depths of my own ignorance. I learn from the different threads but don't contribute anything substantial to the various debates beyond opinion from the point of view of an interested observer. It's for this reason -- acute awareness of my own limitations, that I increasingly find myself more of a reader than a participant to the different discussions.

I'm trained, chiefly, in critical thinking, and while this skill has broad and general application it only takes one so far before rhetorical analysis founders on the rock of some other poster's deeper knowledge of a particular topic.

Most of my life I've resisted 'professionalisation' as something narrowly defining and to be avoided. I see now that this has been a rather massive error. I conclude that deep knowledge of a narrow subject gives more insight than broad knowledge of a diversity of topics. As they say, the fox knows many things, the hedgehog one big thing. One the whole, I think it preferable to be a hedgehog rather than a fox.

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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Chalkperson » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:34 pm

You are not alone, Jack, I left home at 16 and joined the Rock and Roll Circus, it was only when I got to be 40 that I realized the need for a higher education, I am a successful self made man, and self taught in Photography, Computers, Classical Music and everything else needed to run a Photo Studio with eleven employees, I often feel so humbled by the posters here who really know what they are talking about, I have knowledge about other subjects, like War and stuff, but, that's helped by friends in the Military and the need to write to them each week when they are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, also, I scour the Internet for knowledge and read vociferously, when I was a kid I was taken to a child psychologist who said that I would only ever learn things I was interested in, duh, is that ever true...yes, I genuinely wish I had one ounce of the knowledge of others here, a small list includes, Barry, Ralph, Corlyss, RebLem, Jbuck, David Ross, Living Strad, Agnes, Piston, Brendan...actually maybe I should just say everyone here, CMG has taught me a lot about a lot of things but I still know so little...
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

Seán
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Seán » Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:26 pm

Chalkperson wrote:You are not alone, Jack, I left home at 16 and joined the Rock and Roll Circus, it was only when I got to be 40 that I realized the need for a higher education, I am a successful self made man, and self taught in Photography, Computers, Classical Music and everything else needed to run a Photo Studio with eleven employees, I often feel so humbled by the posters here who really know what they are talking about, I have knowledge about other subjects, like War and stuff, but, that's helped by friends in the Military and the need to write to them each week when they are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, also, I scour the Internet for knowledge and read vociferously, when I was a kid I was taken to a child psychologist who said that I would only ever learn things I was interested in, duh, is that ever true...yes, I genuinely wish I had one ounce of the knowledge of others here, a small list includes, Barry, Ralph, Corlyss, RebLem, Jbuck, David Ross, Living Strad, Agnes, Piston, Brendan...actually maybe I should just say everyone here, CMG has taught me a lot about a lot of things but I still know so little...
Chalkie, you are a self made man who provides employment to 11 people and who is civil and decent in all of your dealings with people on this board. YOU certainly should not feel humble even when dealing with people of the calibre of those that you have referred to in your post.
Seán

"To appreciate the greatness of the Masters is to keep faith in the greatness of humanity." - Wilhelm Furtwängler

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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Agnes Selby » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:29 pm

Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:You are not alone, Jack, I left home at 16 and joined the Rock and Roll Circus, it was only when I got to be 40 that I realized the need for a higher education, I am a successful self made man, and self taught in Photography, Computers, Classical Music and everything else needed to run a Photo Studio with eleven employees, I often feel so humbled by the posters here who really know what they are talking about, I have knowledge about other subjects, like War and stuff, but, that's helped by friends in the Military and the need to write to them each week when they are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, also, I scour the Internet for knowledge and read vociferously, when I was a kid I was taken to a child psychologist who said that I would only ever learn things I was interested in, duh, is that ever true...yes, I genuinely wish I had one ounce of the knowledge of others here, a small list includes, Barry, Ralph, Corlyss, RebLem, Jbuck, David Ross, Living Strad, Agnes, Piston, Brendan...actually maybe I should just say everyone here, CMG has taught me a lot about a lot of things but I still know so little...
Chalkie, you are a self made man who provides employment to 11 people and who is civil and decent in all of your dealings with people on this board. YOU certainly should not feel humble even when dealing with people of the calibre of those that you have referred to in your post.
I agree with Sean. I have admired your musical knowledge, your civility to posters
and your achievements and humanity ever since I joined this board.

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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Barry » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:32 pm

Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:You are not alone, Jack, I left home at 16 and joined the Rock and Roll Circus, it was only when I got to be 40 that I realized the need for a higher education, I am a successful self made man, and self taught in Photography, Computers, Classical Music and everything else needed to run a Photo Studio with eleven employees, I often feel so humbled by the posters here who really know what they are talking about, I have knowledge about other subjects, like War and stuff, but, that's helped by friends in the Military and the need to write to them each week when they are deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan, also, I scour the Internet for knowledge and read vociferously, when I was a kid I was taken to a child psychologist who said that I would only ever learn things I was interested in, duh, is that ever true...yes, I genuinely wish I had one ounce of the knowledge of others here, a small list includes, Barry, Ralph, Corlyss, RebLem, Jbuck, David Ross, Living Strad, Agnes, Piston, Brendan...actually maybe I should just say everyone here, CMG has taught me a lot about a lot of things but I still know so little...
Chalkie, you are a self made man who provides employment to 11 people and who is civil and decent in all of your dealings with people on this board. YOU certainly should not feel humble even when dealing with people of the calibre of those that you have referred to in your post.
I agree. And as I've told Chalkie before, I'm sometimes absolutely amazed at how far he's come in the past few years in terms of his ability to discuss topics he used to have very little familiarity with. He can analyze security issues better than almost anyone on here at this point.

Col. Bob probably deserves more credit for that than anyone on here.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by HoustonDavid » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:18 pm

I'm like you Chalkie, well acquainted with many things, but master of none. That is what
technical writers do - we translate the expertise of others into readable prose, which is what
I am good at but I don't share their expertise. You and I share some common understanding
of military issues and you definately have acquired a lot from your friends at the Pentagon,
but I am on shaky ground when it comes to music, technology and science.

I find the same people you and others referred to are the experts on their personal substantive
issues, and usually defer to their wisdom. It is the issue of opinions about sensitive subjects like
politics and governance that we all collectively express our opinions on an equal basis and have
decided differences of opinion. But then none of us can claim to be experts on those issues - well,
maybe some of us think we are.:wink:
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Chalkperson » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:47 pm

Whilst I certainly apprecate everyone's kind words, my coments are actually very true, look at all the Thread Topics that I don't contribute to, subjects like Science, Economics, Religion, Politcs and the background to American Society, that's all the kind of stuff I did not get to learn because I "dropped out" at 16, I read those Threads and marvel at everyone's knowledge, it's very impressive to someone like me, and so I read and learn from you guys, and, as I said at the begining of this Thread, i've learned and grown enormously since I joined CMG, i'm very grateful for that...

Barry brings up Col. Bob, and maybe it's time to tell a little bit of how I managed to befriend one of the best brains in the US Army, it also illustrates the power of the Internet and the Global Village it brings to light so it's not too far off topic...almost seven years ago I was reading a Blog on MSNBC and came across a letter from a "Major Bob", currently in Iraq and needing something from home that the Military did not supply, Creamer for his Coffee, the short and concise letter asked for readers to send him some, he was at the Green Zone and he printed the Zip Code that we gave to that particular part of Iraq, so it was easy for people to send it to him, I certainly was not the kind of person to send creamer to Iraq, and, I thought it a little weird that an Army Major would even be allowed to go on the Internet and ask for some, me being someone who had a little interest in History, but mainly 300+ years old stuff, I had no interest in our current Wars, or so I thought...

A few weeks later another letter hit the MSNBC Blog, from the same guy, but, this time asking for everyone to stop sending creamer, the American people had done Bob a great service, he had sent a photograph of himself, 6 ft 4 and 220 pounds of pure muscle, standing next to an enormous pile of boxes of Creamer, it was everywhere in his tent, boxes and boxes of the stuff...he said he had another request, this time he wanted a Subscription to the New Yorker and The Economist, that threw me, this dude's a Soldier, how come he wants these Magazines I thought, obviously the Army had people that were way more intelligent than I ever gave them credit for, that night, Bush was on TV, appealing for us to Support our Troops, even if was just the simple act of writing to a soldier, OK I thought, I can do that, and, I work for Conde Nast, I could arange for those Subscriptions, so I took care of his request and fired of a letter, I tried to explain how I knew nothing of his War, I objected to it, yet, I felt the compelling urge to communicate with this "Soldier", if I had known then exactly who this "Soldier" was then I doubt I would have ever had the guts to start a dialog, anyway, two days later came a reply to my letter, that fact alone blew me away, here I was, a Dovelike Photograper in New York getting an e-mail from Iraq, it was signed, Best from Baghdad, Bob...best from Baghdad, how cool was that, not just Baghdad but the Green Zone, I wrote straight back, commenting on some things I had read in the Washington Post, a story about a LT Col who was nearly blown up by an IED when his lead Humvee hit one, a reply came straight back, not only did Bob know Col. Mike but he wrote up the incident report, it turned out that he was in charge of Route Irish, the most dangerous Highway in the World, the one into Baghdad from the Airport...Bob said that he was running out of ways to write "Killed by IED", this really hit home with me and subsequent letters described Bob's happy little Band of Warriors, there was Stinky, Wingnut, Cityboy and others, it then occured to me that I had all these great Rock and Roll stories from my past that would make great reading matter for his soldiers, after all, many people had urged me to write a book about my experiences, I always brushed them off by saying that it was the fact that I would NOT write a book that allowed me the access, but, nobody said I could not sent them as messages of Support for Our Troops, so I started writing every week, long letters and full of funny stories about the excesses of my past, I could envision Bob leading his Troops in a Humvee Convoy between the Green Zone and the Airport, he had told me the sequence of three Heavy Metal songs that they played in order to make it in one piece, I knew then that I was definitely doing the right thing...

Little things sipped out, it turned out that Bob was a Military Historian, an author of three books, he did not tell me this, he gave me his surname onetime and so I googled him, I found out quite a bit of stuff that way, his College Photo and other interesting facts, but, I never really talked about the War, that seemed pointless, he had War eighteen hours a day, seven days a week...we corresponded quite a bit over the next year, his deployment lasted 16 months instead of 12, he said that was because he was working on something important and his boss had asked him to stay on and see that work thru, in the end it took him eight days to travel back from Iraq to Washington, he commented that if anyone wanted a definition of inefficiency then the US Army was a perfect model...after he returned I got a package in the mail, it was postmarked "The Pentagon" and it contained Bob's three books, beautifully inscribed to me, I was very touched, but then I found the letter, it thanked me for my support during his deployment and said that those non War related letters had helped him get thru his 16 months...it was the Letterhead that totally threw me, it was from the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and was embossed by the Seal of that Office, holy sh*t, this dude's way more important than I had suspected, it turned out that Bob had been promoted to work for Rummy, he had been given a Two Star General's job and had three computers on his desk...Classified, Secret, and Top Secret...Bob worked directly for SECDEF, we met up a few months later, he was off to give some lectures at West Point and also to start a dialog between the Army and the Navy, Rummy had asked him if he had any good ideas and Bob had suggested that it would be a really good idea if the Army talked to the Navy...Rummy told him to get on it...he went back to Washington via New York and we met up for dinner, he explained how he had been working for General Petreaus and that was why he had stayed on in Iraq, as I said if I had known who he was, I would never had thought that I was capable of talking to someone with his particular skills, he is an Army Ranger, that means that he's Special Forces, and, capable of rappelling out of a Helicopter, or down a mountain wearing a Heavy Pack and then ready to start killing the enemy as fast as possible, not really my kind of person, at least that's what I would have thought if I had known, he's a Senior Commander now of course, but, the Internet is a great place to stay incognito and Bob had managed this very well, I subsequently took him Backstage at a Who Concert and he took me for coffee in the green field at the centre of the Pentagon, obviously by now I had taken a great interest in the War, and as Barry says, Bob's an incredible teacher and I have learned a tremendous amount from him, as I said in my previous post if i'm interested in something then I can learn all about it, Bob's job was interesting and I was a model student, we were all set to go on a Battlefield Tour this year but he got deployed again, first to NATO in Rome and then on to Afghanistan in May, just in time for the Battle for Kandahar...

Anyway, that's my story, it illustrates exactly how the Internet can produce friendships that would never happen any other way...in fact i'm very lucky, because I have been receiving these incredible letter from him, detailing his travels in Italy whilst at NATO for six months, he's walked the same corridors as Caesar, sat on the same stones as Brutus, and, visited the Battlefields upon which the Carthaginians fought their Wars, but, he's off to Afghanistan soon, to do the job he was trained for, writing this post has prepared me perfectly to write those weekly letters from home, letters that I know he appreciates...he's made me into a Patriot, who'd have ever thought i'd end up like that...
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by DavidRoss » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:33 am

Chalkie, none of us knows more than a little, even about the things we have some "expertise" in...and per the old saws, the more real expertise we have, the more we are humbled by recognition of how shallow and narrow our knowledge really is. Your contributions on a variety of subjects have as much merit as anyone else's.

Like you and some others here, what I most enjoy about the Pub is the enthusiastic sharing of information presented by those who have an interest in things I otherwise would know nothing about--like Henry (living-strad) posting about nano-fibers recently, or all the AGW stuff flying about. (Like most folks, I suspect, I had never really looked into it and just assumed that AGW was "scientifically proven" because of the frequent assertions to that effect and because it coincides with certain of my prejudices. Eventually I got drawn into the discussions here and became curious enough to investigate the claims for myself and thus discovered that AGW claims are based more on quasi-religious faith than on rigorous rational examination of all the empirical evidence.)

I like being challenged by new information and new ways of interpreting existing information. I enjoy broadening my understanding by learning to see things from other points of view. And I also like to think that I may be helpful to some by applying my very limited expertise in critical thinking to some of the arguments proposed here that fail to support the conclusions claimed for them. (I know it's a bit foolish of me, but I'm not happy as a cynic so prefer to believe that most people act in good faith and really want to know the truth about things that matter to them, which means that if they are wrong about something they're really glad to find out...maybe even more so than about learning new information that only confirms what they already suspected.)

Of course, people being the spiritually infantile creatures we are, most of us get our egos enmeshed with our beliefs (some more often than others! :wink: ), and then discussions degenerate into someone's effort to "prove" himself right rather than to discover the truth, or worse, the party whose ego feel threatened lashes out with bigoted slurs and nasty stereotyping in an effort to stifle open discussion of matters that cast doubt on whatever position his ego's invested in.

But you, Chalkie, have never done so, in my experience. When I reflect on the one issue that you and I debated at some length, you always stuck to the facts and stayed on course in our mutual effort to reach understanding about an issue that we saw from different perspectives. You never attacked me personally, attempting to disparage and dehumanize me by labeling me as a member of some group deserving nasty treatment because of bigoted stereotyping of group members, but behaved with impeccable graciousness, always mindful that the other participant in the discussion (me, in this case) was a real human being worthy of the same respect and courtesy over the internet as you would extend face-to-face.

To me, the behavior thus demonstrated by you, day in and day out, offers all of us something far more valuable than any narrow technical knowledge that anyone here might share.
Last edited by DavidRoss on Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by living_stradivarius » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:38 am

DavidRoss wrote: But you, Chalkie, have never done so, in my experience. When I reflect on the one issue that you and I debated at some length, you always stuck to the facts and stayed on course in our mutual effort to reach understanding about an issue that we saw from different perspectives. You never attacked me personally, attempting to disparage and dehumanize me by labeling me as a member of some group deserving nasty treatment because of bigoted stereotyping of group members, but behaved with impeccable graciousness, always mindful that the other participant in the discussion (me, in this case) is a real human being worthy of the same respect and courtesy over the internet as you would extend face-to-face.

To me, the behavior thus demonstrated by you, day in and day out, offers all of us something far more valuable than any narrow technical knowledge that anyone here might share.
Hear hear! 8)
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karlhenning
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by karlhenning » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:50 am

David, nicely turned appreciation of chalkie. And chalkie, mate, well done & carry on!

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
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Boston, Massachusetts
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http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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HoustonDavid
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by HoustonDavid » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:51 am

And it only took 12,500 (rounded up) posts to earn your well-deserved accolades. Nearly
everyone here thinks you are a major (and important) contributor. With your thousands
of music recordings of every stipe, you have become an expert in music; with your friends
at the Pentagon, you are a defense and military expert; with Starr at your side, you are a
tribute to love and a great and lasting romance. With all our degrees and expertise, we
should all be so humble.
"May You be born in interesting (maybe confusing?) times" - Chinese Proverb (or Curse)

Madame
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Re: There's been a lesson here for me

Post by Madame » Sun May 02, 2010 12:51 am

"The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder." - Ralph W. Sockman
DavidRoss wrote:Chalkie, none of us knows more than a little, even about the things we have some "expertise" in...and per the old saws, the more real expertise we have, the more we are humbled by recognition of how shallow and narrow our knowledge really is. Your contributions on a variety of subjects have as much merit as anyone else's.

Like you and some others here, what I most enjoy about the Pub is the enthusiastic sharing of information presented by those who have an interest in things I otherwise would know nothing about--like Henry (living-strad) posting about nano-fibers recently, or all the AGW stuff flying about. (Like most folks, I suspect, I had never really looked into it and just assumed that AGW was "scientifically proven" because of the frequent assertions to that effect and because it coincides with certain of my prejudices. Eventually I got drawn into the discussions here and became curious enough to investigate the claims for myself and thus discovered that AGW claims are based more on quasi-religious faith than on rigorous rational examination of all the empirical evidence.)

I like being challenged by new information and new ways of interpreting existing information. I enjoy broadening my understanding by learning to see things from other points of view. And I also like to think that I may be helpful to some by applying my very limited expertise in critical thinking to some of the arguments proposed here that fail to support the conclusions claimed for them. (I know it's a bit foolish of me, but I'm not happy as a cynic so prefer to believe that most people act in good faith and really want to know the truth about things that matter to them, which means that if they are wrong about something they're really glad to find out...maybe even more so than about learning new information that only confirms what they already suspected.)

Of course, people being the spiritually infantile creatures we are, most of us get our egos enmeshed with our beliefs (some more often than others! :wink: ), and then discussions degenerate into someone's effort to "prove" himself right rather than to discover the truth, or worse, the party whose ego feel threatened lashes out with bigoted slurs and nasty stereotyping in an effort to stifle open discussion of matters that cast doubt on whatever position his ego's invested in.

But you, Chalkie, have never done so, in my experience. When I reflect on the one issue that you and I debated at some length, you always stuck to the facts and stayed on course in our mutual effort to reach understanding about an issue that we saw from different perspectives. You never attacked me personally, attempting to disparage and dehumanize me by labeling me as a member of some group deserving nasty treatment because of bigoted stereotyping of group members, but behaved with impeccable graciousness, always mindful that the other participant in the discussion (me, in this case) was a real human being worthy of the same respect and courtesy over the internet as you would extend face-to-face.

To me, the behavior thus demonstrated by you, day in and day out, offers all of us something far more valuable than any narrow technical knowledge that anyone here might share.

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