I don't understand. How can something be from both 1564 and 1565?For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
And from this one:
What does this represent exactly?8-1/2 x 11 News
I don't understand. How can something be from both 1564 and 1565?For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
What does this represent exactly?8-1/2 x 11 News
I cannot find the specific reference to the years 1564-1565 in the pdf source you referred us to. Perhaps, all it means is that the exact year is uncertain.Neytiri wrote:I was reading this one [PDF] and it says:
I don't understand. How can something be from both 1564 and 1565?For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
And from this one:
What does this represent exactly?8-1/2 x 11 News
The only thing I can think of is a date that is in question because it is not clear whether it is according to the Julian or the Gregorian Calendar. However, there are two problems with this: It should not affect dates before 1582, the first year any country adopted the Gregorian Calendar; and the dates differ only by 11 days, so a date of 21 January Gregorian would be 10 January Julian, in other words, in the same year.Neytiri wrote:I was reading this one [PDF] and it says:
I don't understand. How can something be from both 1564 and 1565?For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
It's a pity the guide is not more clear. I presume it refers to dates according to alternate calendars, such as the traditional Chinese calendar, in which the date of the new year varies from year to year between late January and mid-February. If so, then "21 January 1564/1565" would apparently refer to the year 1565 for calendars in which the new year begins on or before 21 January, and the year 1564 for calendars with a new year starting after 21 January.Dates should be given in the form ‘23 April 1564’. The name of the month should always appear in full between the day (‘23’ not ‘23rd’) and the year. No internal punctuation should be used except when a day of the week is mentioned, e.g. ‘Friday, 12 October 2001’. If it is necessary to refer to a date in both Old and New Styles, the form ‘11/21 July 1605’ should be used. For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used. When referring to a period of time, use the form ‘from 1826 to 1850’ (not ‘from 1826–50’), ‘from January to March 1970’ (not ‘from January–March 1970’). In citations of the era, ‘bc’, ‘bce’, and ‘ce’ follow the year and ‘ad’ precedes it, and small capitals without full points are used:
Precisely.jbuck919 wrote:The only thing I can think of is a date that is in question because it is not clear whether it is according to the Julian or the Gregorian Calendar. However, there are two problems with this: It should not affect dates before 1582, the first year any country adopted the Gregorian Calendar; and the dates differ only by 11 days, so a date of 21 January Gregorian would be 10 January Julian, in other words, in the same year.
Such a rule is in any case not necessary as any question of discrepancy can be resolved as it occurs in a scholarly text. Someone seems to have had too much time on his hands.
Hm.JohnF wrote:And of course in American style, dates should be given in the form April 23, 1564. (Chicago Manual of Style, p. 253 etc.)
RebLem wrote:I found it, its on page 38 of the document, and reads as follows:
8.1 DATES
Dates should be given in the form ‘23 April 1564’. The name of the month
should always appear in full between the day (‘23’ not ‘23rd’) and the year.
No internal punctuation should be used except when a day of the week is
mentioned, e.g. ‘Friday, 12 October 2001’. If it is necessary to refer to a date
in both Old and New Styles, the form ‘11/21 July 1605’ should be used.
For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form
‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
"News" is there for the same reason that "liters," "buildings," and "poodles" are there in other examples, simply to provide a context. Given that 8½ x 11 is a standard paper size, I presume that "News" is short for "newsprint."Neytiri wrote:David, as for the 8-1/2, why is the word news next to it? It puzzles me.
It's Heisenberg Time!Neytiri wrote:I was reading this one [PDF] and it says:
I don't understand. How can something be from both 1564 and 1565?For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
jbuck919 wrote:RebLem wrote:I found it, its on page 38 of the document, and reads as follows:
8.1 DATES
Dates should be given in the form ‘23 April 1564’. The name of the month
should always appear in full between the day (‘23’ not ‘23rd’) and the year.
No internal punctuation should be used except when a day of the week is
mentioned, e.g. ‘Friday, 12 October 2001’. If it is necessary to refer to a date
in both Old and New Styles, the form ‘11/21 July 1605’ should be used.
For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form
‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
It would be funny if the next sentence read "The correcting of a text that is anachronistic with respect to this instruction because of, apparently, the author's ignorance is beyond the scope of this guide." ('11/21 July 1605' does make sense. The Gregorian Calendar was accepted at different times by different countries, with England/Great Britain being a notorious hold-out.)
Here is the key:Neytiri wrote:And if it is a Gregorian/Julian thing, then the difference cannot be one whole year between the two.
21 January 1565 Julian cannot be the same day as 21 January 1565 Gregorian.
New Years Day has not always been 1 January in the English-speaking world:For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
Thus, 21 January 1565 in (say) France was still 21 January 1564 in England, where the new year did not begin until 25 March. In England at the time, the day after 24 March 1564 was 25 March 1565.Wikipedia wrote:Most countries in Western Europe officially adopted January 1 as New Year's Day somewhat before they adopted the Gregorian calendar. In England, the Feast of the Annunciation on 25 March, was the first day of the new year until the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar in 1752. The 25 March date was known as Annunciation Style . . . .
Karl,karlhenning wrote:Here is the key:Neytiri wrote:And if it is a Gregorian/Julian thing, then the difference cannot be one whole year between the two.
21 January 1565 Julian cannot be the same day as 21 January 1565 Gregorian.
New Years Day has not always been 1 January in the English-speaking world:For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
Thus, 21 January 1565 in (say) France was still 21 January 1564 in England, where the new year did not begin until 25 March. In England at the time, the day after 24 March 1564 was 25 March 1565.Wikipedia wrote:Most countries in Western Europe officially adopted January 1 as New Year's Day somewhat before they adopted the Gregorian calendar. In England, the Feast of the Annunciation on 25 March, was the first day of the new year until the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar in 1752. The 25 March date was known as Annunciation Style . . . .
Cheers,
~Karl
Note to both of you: Thank you for being my teachers on this.Proton wrote:Karl,karlhenning wrote:Here is the key:Neytiri wrote:And if it is a Gregorian/Julian thing, then the difference cannot be one whole year between the two.
21 January 1565 Julian cannot be the same day as 21 January 1565 Gregorian.
New Years Day has not always been 1 January in the English-speaking world:For dates dependent upon the time of beginning the new year, the form ‘21 January 1564/5’ should be used.
Thus, 21 January 1565 in (say) France was still 21 January 1564 in England, where the new year did not begin until 25 March. In England at the time, the day after 24 March 1564 was 25 March 1565.Wikipedia wrote:Most countries in Western Europe officially adopted January 1 as New Year's Day somewhat before they adopted the Gregorian calendar. In England, the Feast of the Annunciation on 25 March, was the first day of the new year until the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar in 1752. The 25 March date was known as Annunciation Style . . . .
Cheers,
~Karl
Kudos to you for imparting the same information in many fewer words.
Note to self: Strive for brevity!
Not if you're writing for publication. Or, rather, you can write as you please, but the publisher's copyeditor will change what you write to conform to house style, which is applied automatically and strictly. Generally, it's based on a specific style manual, which one depends on the publisher and the subject matter. And if you browse around in any of these style manuals, you can see that they are neither vague nor permissive, but specific and strict. Saves a lot of time and needless arguments between author and publisher about how to handle the mechanical aspects of style.Neytiri wrote:Luckily for many Americans, Britons etc., everything in these style guides is so vague and permissive, you can pretty much write as you please.
Yes, of course. I expressed myself badly. I meant that if you look at them as a whole and inspect what each one of these suggests and prescribes, you will find a bit of everything.John F wrote: Not if you're writing for publication. Or, rather, you can write as you please, but the publisher's copyeditor will change what you write to conform to house style, which is applied automatically and strictly. Generally, it's based on a specific style manual, which one depends on the publisher and the subject matter. And if you browse around in any of these style manuals, you can see that they are neither vague nor permissive, but specific and strict. Saves a lot of time and needless arguments between author and publisher about how to handle the mechanical aspects of style.
Yes, both publishers I worked for used Chicago, and so did every American book publisher I have that kind of info about. Many English publishers probably use the style guides you mention.Neytiri wrote:You've mentioned in another thread that you've worked for college textbook publishers. Did their house style rely on Chicago Style Manual or was it a style manual written by the editors of the house?
I like The Oxford Style Manual, which combines The Oxford Guide to Style and The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, but also The Times Style and Usage Guide and Financial Times style guide.
It's , actually, just different. It means different thing when there is a comma before and and when it's not there.John F wrote: But at Norton we had a few wrinkles of our own, such as serial commas: "Martin, Barton, and Fish" rather than "Martin, Barton and Fish." It's just better.
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