The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

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The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by RebLem » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:49 am

Dogs get $5,000 wedding with all the amenities

By Eric Pfeiffer | The Sideshow – Tue, Apr 24, 2012

In this canine love story, ring around the collar was the intended effect.

Scruffy Rubin and Snickers Carter had a wedding many couples dream of, featuring 100 guests, a wedding cake, open bar, receptionist and even security. But while the newlyweds are reportedly happy together, that are not actually human.

The Desert Sun reports that actual humans Ernie Rubin and Ann Carter got together to throw Scruffy and Snickers a $5,000 wedding at the Palm Desert Resort Country Club in Palm Desert, Calif., on Sunday.

"I'm not losing a son, I'm gaining a daughter-in-law," Carter told the paper.

The ceremony was officiated by "priest" Harry Farber, who wore a black collar featuring novelty dog bones.

As the two dogs—dressed in custom couture dress and doggie tuxedo—walked down a faux grass carpet aisle, they were accompanied by a ring bearer, flower boy, groomsman and usher. However, it's worth noting that the groomsman was a Pug named Max.

A live band serenaded them with a rendition of "You Light Up My Life."

And while all of that sounds pretty over-the-top, Rubin and Carter turned the canine ceremony into a good cause by asking guests to donate to the Orphan Pet Oasis Humane Society of the Desert in North Palm Springs.

"In planning this event Ernie and Ann wanted to make sure that a charity was involved and they felt strongly about what we do at the society," society representative Jennifer Hamilton told the Desert Sun.

"The whole thing just took on a life of its own and kept growing and growing," Rubin said. "But that was OK because the donations we collected for the shelter were just amazing."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/do ... 17513.html
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:28 am

Actually a reason that arguments against raising taxes on the super-rich are bankrupt of both reason and morality is that it would not in the least harm their ability still to have every extravagance they can think of.

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by John F » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:51 am

Or to leave their children wealthy beyond anything they've personally earned. Except, again, in the case of Warren Buffett, who's leaving his money to charity rather than his children, and has already begun.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by lennygoran » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:15 am

John F wrote:Or to leave their children wealthy beyond anything they've personally earned.
Yeah and then Obama gets criticized for bringing up the silver spoon issue! Regards, Len :x --okay also jealous!

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by Modernistfan » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:55 pm

This sort of silliness has always gone on. I can remember just after the 1987 stock market crash a story came out about a kiddy car styled like a Ferrari. The price was $12,000; at that time, it was possible to buy a quite decent real car for adults, such as a Toyota Celica, for just about that amount of money. (A Honda Civic cost about $8500-$9000 depending on options at that point.)

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by RebLem » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:22 pm

Modernistfan wrote:This sort of silliness has always gone on. I can remember just after the 1987 stock market crash a story came out about a kiddy car styled like a Ferrari. The price was $12,000; at that time, it was possible to buy a quite decent real car for adults, such as a Toyota Celica, for just about that amount of money. (A Honda Civic cost about $8500-$9000 depending on options at that point.)
Yes, but they didn't go around like Mitt Romney claiming everybody should love the rich and show gratitude to them for providing jobs. Malcolm Forbes, who was one of the people given to such excesses, once appeared on the David Letterman Show and was asked how he got rich. "Oh, that's easy," he said cheerfully. "My father died."

You don't find such charm and honesty in most of today's mega-rich. All you get is unctiousness, and an overweening sense of entitlement.

And let us remember, as the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic becomes a memory, that no millionaire survived the Titanic sinking. All of them, including John Jacob Astor, died on the ship. Does anyone think that would happen in similar circumstances today?
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:33 pm

RebLem wrote:And let us remember, as the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic becomes a memory, that no millionaire survived the Titanic sinking. All of them, including John Jacob Astor, died on the ship. Does anyone think that would happen in similar circumstances today?
I'm not sure that the peer-pressure-enforced chivalry of the Titanic millionaires is very instructive; most of their families survived. (There was at least one case, and I cannot remember the specifics, of a wife refusing to enter a lifeboat because she wanted to die with her husband.) Far more relevant to what we face, and it is analogous rather than counter to that, is the difference in survival rate of the third class passengers, without whose relatively meager fares, it might be added, the Titanic and ships like her would not have existed or been profitable.

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by lennygoran » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:36 am

jbuck919 wrote: I cannot remember the specifics, of a wife refusing to enter a lifeboat because she wanted to die with her husband.)
wiki:

"Isidor Straus (February 6, 1845 – April 15, 1912), a German-American Jew, was co-owner of Macy's department store with his brother Nathan. He also served briefly as a member of the United States House of Representatives.[1] He died with his wife, Ida, in the sinking of the passenger ship RMS Titanic....Ida reportedly would not leave Isidor and refused to get in a lifeboat. The officer filling up the boat told Isidor that he could get into the boat with his wife, but he refused to, instead sending his wife's maid, Ellen Bird, into the boat. Ida refused to board the half-full boat, saying "I will not be separated from my husband. As we have lived, so will we die, together."

Regards, Len

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by Febnyc » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:35 pm

RebLem wrote: All you get is unctiousness, and an overweening sense of entitlement.

And let us remember, as the 100th anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic becomes a memory, that no millionaire survived the Titanic sinking. All of them, including John Jacob Astor, died on the ship. Does anyone think that would happen in similar circumstances today?
"ALL you get...?" ALL? So, rich people ONLY are oily and feel entitled (to what is not made clear)?

And the last sentence is pure, venomous and jealous unadulterated hogwash! Such an abominable statement brings no surprise, of course, considering the source.

This position is so ridiculous that I cannot even decide where to begin a rebuttal. It is so preposterous that I cannot believe it comes from an intelligent life-form. Of course, nothing I or anyone else offers as a contretemps would change one iota of the robotic thinking so often encountered from this person.

What the heck is wrong with being rich? What does it matter who earned the money? My long experience has taught me that whoever did accumulate the family nest egg worked damn hard to do this. I know I sure did and everyone else who has a couple of shekels in the bank has done so, too.

If you're gonna criticize - why not pick on the athletes or the entertainment business where mega-fortunes are made and displayed - and applauded by goggle-eyed sycophants. Few of them, I am sure, commuted four hours every day, worked 18-hour days, traveled thousands of miles on planes and trains, bore the responsibility of the welfare of hundreds of staff members, went to bed at night worrying about the competitors and about how to conserve and grow a very large corporate asset base, rarely had a full weekend at home, and so on.

Last time I looked this was a capitalist nation and, as such, always will have poor people and rich people. And there are elements in each group who act irresponsibly - so what? The stupidity of the stereotypical crassness exhibited in the "dog" story is completely beside the point and is part of this poster's disturbing paranoia toward anyone who has a bank account. Thank goodness he is an isolated case, shouting into the wind, with no influence on me or my lifestyle. I could, and usually do, ignore his "Soak the Rich" sandwich boards, but every once in a while his annoying mutterings cause me, against my better judgement, to reply.

I enjoy having a special life, enjoy so far 15 years of vital, healthy retirement doing exactly what I want to do (which includes, by the way, lots of volunteer work). I like living far from the madding crowd, quietly and peacefully behind the driveway gates. I have no argument with anyone else in the same situation - and to those who really piled it up - more power to them. I know how munificent they are, in general, and how modestly they approach their "entitlements," which, in my opinion, they've earned in abundance.

And, PS - why should I begrudge Mr. Romney's wealth while Mr. Obama begrudges mine?

[Oh, and PPS - I voted for Obama. LOL :?]
Last edited by Febnyc on Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by living_stradivarius » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:03 pm

That $5,000 wedding involved hiring wedding staff, planners, and tailors to make dog clothes. If anything, these folks are OVERPAYING people who are less wealthy for something incredibly mundane - it's almost as if they were giving money away! Seems like a pretty good deal for those who bothered to work at selling those services. Those who were hired in turn buy other things that feed other laborers. Economics.

As an isolated incident, this isn't one of the better justifications for taxing the "rich". A better justification is tax avoidance.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by Febnyc » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:07 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:That $5,000 wedding involved hiring wedding staff, planners, and tailors to make dog clothes. If anything, these folks are OVERPAYING people who are less wealthy for something incredibly mundane - it's almost as if they were giving money away! Seems like a pretty good deal for those who bothered to work at selling those services. Those who were hired in turn buy other things that feed other laborers. Economics.

As an isolated incident, this isn't one of the better justifications for taxing the "rich". A better justification is tax avoidance.
Q.E.D., brother.

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:19 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:That $5,000 wedding involved hiring wedding staff, planners, and tailors to make dog clothes. If anything, these folks are OVERPAYING people who are less wealthy for something incredibly mundane - it's almost as if they were giving money away! Seems like a pretty good deal for those who bothered to work at selling those services. Those who were hired in turn buy other things that feed other laborers. Economics.

As an isolated incident, this isn't one of the better justifications for taxing the "rich". A better justification is tax avoidance.
You mean tax them appropriately because they have too many ways to avoid paying a fair tax rate? I think we can all agree on that. :D

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by living_stradivarius » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:12 pm

Even taxation isn't the bigger issue here. The fallacious line of thinking established by the OP in this thread assumes that the value conveyed by money can somehow be "hoarded" by the rich, depriving everyone else of said value. This is hardly true, whether rich family pays for a $5000 dog wedding or keeps that $5k in a bank. If they opt to pay for the wedding, then that money's going straight back into the economy, paying for services and products that others provide. Even, if they keep that $5k in the bank, the bank is the vehicle through which said value is recycled into the economy in the form of loans/credit.
The real problem arises when people irresponsibly take out loans for purchases (like dog weddings) when they don't have the means to pay for them.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:17 pm

living_stradivarius wrote: The real problem arises when people irresponsibly take out loans for purchases (like dog weddings) when they don't have the means to pay for them.
Or houses. :roll:

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by RebLem » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:19 pm

Febnyc wrote:Oh, and PPS - I voted for Obama. LOL :?
Glad to hear it. :wink:
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by lennygoran » Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:10 am

jbuck919 wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:

Or houses. :roll:
I do hope you're blaming the banks and not necessarily the people for the housing problem. Blame should go to the derivatives, the deregulation and Greenspan! Regards, Len

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by nut-job » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:03 pm

I don't think "the rich" should be punished. But I don't see why the rich should not have to pay the same fraction of their income in taxes as a typical middle-class taxpayer. I think the dramatic revisions of the tax codes that made investment income subject to a lower tax rate should be reversed. When these changes were made we were promised that greater economic growth would be unleashed, but I see no evidence that this has happened. The US economy did much better in the middle 20th century when tax rates were higher.

Tangentially, the influence of the financial sector on the government is a disaster. We can admire people who get rich by creativity or by facilitating economic growth, but we don't admire people who get rich by stealing. Regulation of the banks should be stored, preventing banks from gambling with other people's money (restoration of Glass-Steagall) and tax codes or regulations should be adjusted to remove the incentives for banks to engage in predatory practices. Banks should profit when they do things that promote economic growth.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by RebLem » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:22 pm

Febnyc wrote:If you're gonna criticize - why not pick on the athletes or the entertainment business where mega-fortunes are made and displayed - and applauded by goggle-eyed sycophants. Few of them, I am sure, commuted four hours every day, worked 18-hour days, traveled thousands of miles on planes and trains, bore the responsibility of the welfare of hundreds of staff members, went to bed at night worrying about the competitors and about how to conserve and grow a very large corporate asset base, rarely had a full weekend at home, and so on.
It is indeed interesting that the people you want me to vllainize are the people in fields like athletics and entertainment in which black people have demonstrated an ability to succeed. Lets take athletes first.

The reason black people succeed as football and basketball players is that these are the two areas in which the search for excellence is adequately funded even in ghetto schools. And your statement that it "is pure, venomous and jealous unadulterated hogwash" seems to apply to you more than to me. You clearly resent the fact that they are admired instead of you. Even those areas in which blacks are successful ought to be cut off to them, apparently, and you should replace them in the public affections if things were run right and folks' values were not skewed. It reminds me of a Picasso painting I saw once in which a man looked like he was kissing his own cheek.

I am particularly not going to run down football players, whose average life span is 49 years. That is like the life span of the average Indian fifty years ago. And the team owners, whom you evidently think I should admire more than the athletes, wanted to add two games a season in the last round of contract negotiations. I wanted to ask them what their goal was in terms of players' life spans. They said athletes were coddled too much, so evidently they thought a 49 year lfe span was too long. What would have made them feel comfortable? A life span of 46 years? 39? Maybe 34? How many more head injuries would be sustained in two more games per year, and how much would earlier deaths save them in pensions? Luckily, this is one of the points the owners lost on in the final settlement, but you now have my view of the people who would benefit from a diminution of the popular adulation of football players.

As for entertainers, who do you mean? Rap artists? I ignore them. I pay no attention to them. When they appear on television, unless they are with other people I like, I turn the channel. Kardashians? I ignore them, too. And, in fact, the fact that such people began to appear on The View with distressing regularity is partly responsible for the fact that I increased my viewing of MSNBC. Yes, I know, I should listen to classical music more instead, or read good books more. If its any consolation to you, I do feel guilty about not doing that!
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by John F » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:29 pm

Progressive taxation is not punishment, though Ben Stein once tried to play for sympathy on CBS's Sunday Morning by whining that he shouldn't be punished for earning more. Fines are punishment but nobody's talking about levying fines on the rich for being rich. The nation should go to the rich for the same reason Willie Sutton went to banks - that's where the money is. :)

Trickle-down economics has been proven false time and time again. It's a fiction told by politicians of a certain stripe to justify special treatment for their backers. I don't see any economic basis (not to mention moral reason) for treating gains and losses from playing the stock market more specially than the proceeds of any other kind of gambling. Perhaps there might be justification for a special tax rate on genuine startups, when the initial investors cash in, but my buying and selling shares in GM or Wal-Mart contributes nothing to the company's influence on the economy (such as job creation) that would justify taxing the gains at a rate below what people pay on their wages from actually working.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by living_stradivarius » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:35 pm

John F wrote:Trickle-down economics has been proven false time and time again. It's a fiction told by politicians of a certain stripe to justify special treatment for their backers.
Trickle-down itself isn't the problem. It works if you don't have special financial treatment for bankers and traders distorting the flow of capital to people who are in fact leading new initiatives. The finder's fee and risk imposed by banks on society is extremely large, and wholly inappropriate in a day and age where information is cheap and readily available.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by living_stradivarius » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:36 pm

lennygoran wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:

Or houses. :roll:
I do hope you're blaming the banks and not necessarily the people for the housing problem. Blame should go to the derivatives, the deregulation and Greenspan! Regards, Len
Banks are largely responsible, but individuals are also to blame.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:59 pm

lennygoran wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
living_stradivarius wrote:

Or houses. :roll:
I do hope you're blaming the banks and not necessarily the people for the housing problem. Blame should go to the derivatives, the deregulation and Greenspan! Regards, Len
I'm blaming the people--sarcastically. No matter how individual unwisdom played into those developments, "the real problem" in our economy is not ordinary people borrowing beyond their means when greed (and I don't mean theirs) facilitates it. In fact, bringing that issue up at all was a typically stradivarian changing of the subject.

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:49 pm

John F wrote:The nation should go to the rich for the same reason Willie Sutton went to banks - that's where the money is. :)
Right, and it's also the same reason the nation went to the middle class (with conspicuously less political warfare) when that was where the money was.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by lennygoran » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:59 am

living_stradivarius wrote:
Banks are largely responsible, but individuals are also to blame.
Yes I can see that but it's the bankers who went so far over the line I wanna see behind bars! Regards, Len

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by lennygoran » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:01 am

jbuck919 wrote: In fact, bringing that issue up at all was a typically stradivarian changing of the subject.
Nope not me--I never learned how to play a violin. When I was about 30 I took piano lessons for a year and a half but was no darn good. Regards, Len :(

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by nut-job » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:46 pm

living_stradivarius wrote:That $5,000 wedding involved hiring wedding staff, planners, and tailors to make dog clothes. If anything, these folks are OVERPAYING people who are less wealthy for something incredibly mundane - it's almost as if they were giving money away! Seems like a pretty good deal for those who bothered to work at selling those services. Those who were hired in turn buy other things that feed other laborers. Economics.
The fact that wealthy people spend their money is besides the point. Sure, it goes into the economy again. The point is that money does not make a society prosperous. Efficient use of labor makes a society prosperous. And use of labor is determined by who is spending the money.

Maybe Larry Ellison buys a 100 million dollar yacht. Or maybe that $100 million could have been distributed to Oracle employees, and ten thousand people could have bought 10 thousand dollar boats. Or if more of that money was collected in tax more people would be employed building schools or hospitals, rather a $100 million yacht. In all cases $100 million gets put into the economy and people get their wages. In one case all of the ship builders are building one boat for one rich guy, in the other case people are working on things that benefit the broader society. There is a difference.

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Re: The Rich Need to be Taxed More--Reason # 4,327

Post by living_stradivarius » Fri May 04, 2012 11:53 am

jbuck919 wrote:I'm blaming the people--sarcastically. No matter how individual unwisdom played into those developments, "the real problem" in our economy is not ordinary people borrowing beyond their means when greed (and I don't mean theirs) facilitates it. In fact, bringing that issue up at all was a typically stradivarian changing of the subject.
That's because I like jbucking the trend.
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