DoAttractiveFemaleClassicalMusicPerformersHaveThe Edge

[slofstra]

What about the voice, what about that moment that grips you and tears you up, because of how it is sung! If you don't get that, you don't get the opera, so why don't they sell that? That's what people come for, and why people come back.

Opera may be different than the flutist case imo. For example we saw our first Siegfried in Seattle maybe 8 years ago--the finale where Siegfried enters the ring of fire, emerging on Brünnhilde's rock-- At first, he thinks the armored figure is a man. However, when he removes the armor, he finds a woman beneath. Well in this case that woman was a very obese Jane Eaglen--I'm sorry but I have to admit this subtracted from my enjoyment--my wife laughed a little too. Okay I'll also admit that when Heppner and Eaglen do their love duet in the Met's Tristan in that tent I was sort of glad it was dark and hard to see her--the singing was great! Regards, Len

That's just plain miscasting, and perhaps that's the other side of the whole question. Yeah, I like a well staged opera production, especially a full movie production, or sets built for movie rather than the stage, as well as singers who look the part. The Netrebko/ Villazon production of La Boheme is a high point for me in terms of having the whole package together. (That is, out of perhaps 20 or so operas I have on DVD). But as long as those things aren't done at the expense of the voice.
I think the issues that I have are not at all with what the creative people do. For example, no problem in particular with how women dress or act in the present discussion. Those are individual choices after all. The issue is with how the Arts are packaged, sold and reported, especially to cater to the popular taste and people's expectations. And the appeal to the male penis is a major factor in all of that, to put it bluntly.

I have also wondered about the Heppner/ Eaglen production. I'm still on the lookout for a Tristan und Isolde production to purchase, and I share your reservations about the casting. I just can't see that one either. Although I loved Heppner in Levine/ Met's Fidelio. That's also a fantastic production, one I've watched many times.

[lennygoran]

That's just plain miscasting, and perhaps that's the other side of the whole question. ...
I have also wondered about the Heppner/ Eaglen production. I'm still on the lookout for a Tristan und Isolde production to purchase, and I share your reservations about the casting. I just can't see that one either. Although I loved Heppner in Levine/ Met's Fidelio.

It's hard for me to actually call it miscasting--Eaglen's voice is excellent--still I gotta say something was missing at that Seattle Siegfried finale. Then there's the case of Voigt and the ROH Ariadne. Ironically now she looks great and we have really enjoyed her and Jay Hunter Morris in the latest Met Ring. BTW Heppner is one of my favorites--wish we could get him back at the Met. Regards, Len

[slofstra]

That's just plain miscasting, and perhaps that's the other side of the whole question. ...
I have also wondered about the Heppner/ Eaglen production. I'm still on the lookout for a Tristan und Isolde production to purchase, and I share your reservations about the casting. I just can't see that one either. Although I loved Heppner in Levine/ Met's Fidelio.

It's hard for me to actually call it miscasting--Eaglen's voice is excellent--still I gotta say something was missing at that Seattle Siegfried finale. Then there's the case of Voigt and the ROH Ariadne. Ironically now she looks great and we have really enjoyed her and Jay Hunter Morris in the latest Met Ring. BTW Heppner is one of my favorites--wish we could get him back at the Met. Regards, Len

Yes, I think you're right after all. To call it 'miscasting' is too easy a call. Perhaps the pendulum can swing too far the other way, to the point where if you can sing it, and have the cred professionally and technically, then you can have the part. And on a CD recording, why not. But I once saw a Madama Butterfly with an overweight middle-aged Cio Cio San. Really did not work, although it was sung beautifully. I suppose the point is that popular taste and audience expectations can't be ignored entirely.

[Chalkperson]

(musing);

Christ, it's become quarrelling about quarrelling now. Is there no end to this pathetic confrontationalism- on a muisc site?

But this music site has a section for quarrelling about any subject--that is called the Pub! Also it seems to me a lot of the members felt the subject belongs in the ChatterBox but Chalkie's the moderator so here we are. Regards, Len

Any subject, including on special occasions Music, yes, I agree that this Thread would be far better suited to the Chatterbox, but, I did not feel that those Members in there should be subjected to the arguing that I knew this Thread would initially bring out, it is very unfortunate that both Lenny and Henry (UK Joke for Abs) did not grasp that I was the Moderator, i'm sorry that I forced the Thread in here but I did not know how else to protect the "Public Library Reading Room" status of the Chatterbox without the Codes to Delete the Thread as requested by Sean...Chalklyss

That said, I am glad to see you now have it back on Topic, peoples weight is an important part of this subject, it is partly why I (as Chalkperson) prefer to simply listen to Opera, to expect good looks to always run in tandem with an extraordinary Vocal talent is simply not possible, people forget that Maria Callas sang Wagner at the beginning of her career, and she had the weight and the looks for it, her transformation into La Callas was extraordinary...

[absinthe]

Yes, I have no quarrel with Sean. Nice guy, but perhaps a little sensitive?

Why sensitive? He made a perfectly innocuous statement about a flautist and suddenly finds himself assailed by unease and "hoping that wasn't what it's about" and all he did was comment on his regard for this flautist. It's fair to assume (to me anyway) that talent doesn't come into it if she's secured that job. So if you don't like the topic or his statement it wd seem more prudent just to leave it alone. Chalkperson had to spell it out but that wasn't enough, was it? Nope, on goes the argument, the overbearing patronism as if members can't judge for themselves what's good and not, as Chalkie pointed out, until Sèan's had enough...and even then, on it goes. I mean, do you lot learn your music armed with swords and shields or something.

I mean, how thick can you blokes get? It wasn't sensitivity. He lost his patience - pretty obvious, don't you think?

What I learn from this is that re certain people, their having a brain does not guarantee having a mind.

[lennygoran]

But I once saw a Madama Butterfly with an overweight middle-aged Cio Cio San. Really did not work, although it was sung beautifully.

I can empathize with you on that one! Regards, Len

[Chalkperson]

Note: slofstra posted a comment about Sèan being somewhat sensitive, to which this was supposed to be a reply. He or Lance deleted the post.

Why sensitive? He made a perfectly innocuous statement about a flautist and suddenly finds himself assailed by unease and "hoping that wasn't what it's about" and all he did was comment on his regard for this flautist. It's fair to assume (to me anyway) that talent doesn't come into it if she's secured that job. So if you don't like the topic or his statement it wd seem more prudent just to leave it alone. Chalkperson had to spell it out but that wasn't enough, was it? Nope, on goes the argument, the overbearing patronism as if members can't judge for themselves what's good and not, as Chalkie pointed out, until Sèan's had enough...and even then, on it goes. I mean, do you lot learn your music armed with swords and shields or something.

I mean, how thick can you blokes get? It wasn't sensitivity. He lost his patience - pretty obvious, don't you think?

What I learn from this is that re certain people, their having a brain does not guarantee having a mind.

Yes, I have no quarrel with Sean. Nice guy, but perhaps a little sensitive?

Note, Henry did not delete his comment, it is still there..Chalklyss

[lennygoran]

people forget that Maria Callas sang Wagner at the beginning of her career, and she had the weight and the looks for it, her transformation into La Callas was extraordinary...

This is something I'd like to know more about--I'll have to check out the internet tomorrow for images! Regards, Len

[absinthe]

Yes, I have no quarrel with Sean. Nice guy, but perhaps a little sensitive?

Note, Henry did not delete his comment, it is still there..Chalklyss

Yup - apologies. I'll amend my message a bit Allegro, like.

it is very unfortunate that both Lenny and Henry (UK Joke for Abs) did not grasp that I was the Moderator

I could hardly miss that! A touch of black humour you might say, that adds spice to the topic!

[Chalkperson]

people forget that Maria Callas sang Wagner at the beginning of her career, and she had the weight and the looks for it, her transformation into La Callas was extraordinary...

This is something I'd like to know more about--I'll have to check out the internet tomorrow for images! Regards, Len

She was HUGE, and ugly too...OK, not ugly like Haskil and Landowska but far from attractive...there is video footage of it online somewhere, she talks about it in Lord Harewood's Documentaries...her Wagner was sung in Italian...

They are always worth watching...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWzNU9iFKzI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoUAVPIu ... ure=relmfu

So is this 1974 Barbara Walters Interview...she even discusses the quality of her voice at that late stage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjBAqTAY ... re=related

[lennygoran]

it is very unfortunate that both Lenny and Henry (UK Joke for Abs) did not grasp that I was the Moderator

I could hardly miss that! A touch of black humour you might say, that adds spice to the topic!

Black humor, no I thought it was red humor! Regards, Lenlyss

[lennygoran]

She was HUGE, and ugly too...OK, not ugly like Haskil and Landowska but far from attractive...there is video footage of it online somewhere, she talks about it in Lord Harewood's Documentaries...her Wagner was sung in Italian...

Thanks for the links--funny I'm having trouble finding a photo of her when she was heavy--I wonder if her fanatical fans came in to the internet and removed them all? Found this photo:



Regards, Len

[slofstra]

Yes, I have no quarrel with Sean. Nice guy, but perhaps a little sensitive?

Why sensitive? He made a perfectly innocuous statement about a flautist and suddenly finds himself assailed by unease and "hoping that wasn't what it's about" and all he did was comment on his regard for this flautist. It's fair to assume (to me anyway) that talent doesn't come into it if she's secured that job. So if you don't like the topic or his statement it wd seem more prudent just to leave it alone. Chalkperson had to spell it out but that wasn't enough, was it? Nope, on goes the argument, the overbearing patronism as if members can't judge for themselves what's good and not, as Chalkie pointed out, until Sèan's had enough...and even then, on it goes. I mean, do you lot learn your music armed with swords and shields or something.

I mean, how thick can you blokes get? It wasn't sensitivity. He lost his patience - pretty obvious, don't you think?

What I learn from this is that re certain people, their having a brain does not guarantee having a mind.

It might well be impatience with my comment, not sensitivity on Sean's part, and that is a good point.
As for the rest, first of all, there is no "you lot", only me. I made the comment and stand behind it and subsequent posts I made. I won't rehash the argument itself as I have nothing new to say on it. If, at this point, you don't understand the argument, then I give up. I read your post as the height of absurdity, beginning with the phrase "assailed by unease". That in itself says it all to me. It's almost too much for a person to bear, to be "assailed by unease". Tut, tut, it's beyond all measure, I'm sure. I will certainly have to tone back my pugnacious manner and tiptoe more carefully around some of you.
I will disregard all the rest of what you are saying as purely reactive rhetoric given that there are no specific examples and nothing relating to the issue of the matter, which either you don't understand or blithely choose to ignore.
And actually I don't have much problem with your post, given the vapidity of any actual point other than "ad hominem" issues. Sean probably appreciates the moral support. Maybe, he'll come back knowing he has friends like you. I also like Sean, just for the record.

[slofstra]

Note: slofstra posted a comment about Sèan being somewhat sensitive, to which this was supposed to be a reply. He or Lance deleted the post.

Why sensitive? He made a perfectly innocuous statement about a flautist and suddenly finds himself assailed by unease and "hoping that wasn't what it's about" and all he did was comment on his regard for this flautist. It's fair to assume (to me anyway) that talent doesn't come into it if she's secured that job. So if you don't like the topic or his statement it wd seem more prudent just to leave it alone. Chalkperson had to spell it out but that wasn't enough, was it? Nope, on goes the argument, the overbearing patronism as if members can't judge for themselves what's good and not, as Chalkie pointed out, until Sèan's had enough...and even then, on it goes. I mean, do you lot learn your music armed with swords and shields or something.

I mean, how thick can you blokes get? It wasn't sensitivity. He lost his patience - pretty obvious, don't you think?

What I learn from this is that re certain people, their having a brain does not guarantee having a mind.

Yes, I have no quarrel with Sean. Nice guy, but perhaps a little sensitive?

Note, Henry did not delete his comment, it is still there..Chalklyss

No I don't delete stuff. And I also am not in the habit of changing my posts, unless it's "in process". But you already know that.

[Chalkperson]

No I don't delete stuff. And I also am not in the habit of changing my posts, unless it's "in process". But you already know that.

Eight Edit's on the retort to Absinthe, I think might be some kind of record...

[slofstra]

No I don't delete stuff. And I also am not in the habit of changing my posts, unless it's "in process". But you already know that.

Eight Edit's on the retort to Absinthe, I think might be some kind of record...

Yup, and there's a good reason for it. Rough draft, then post immediately. After that every single edit gets a post. Why? Because I have lost too many posts due to CMG going down, browser freeze ups, lost connections and the like.
My writing style in general is "free writing" with heavy editing. I write as fast as I can talk, so I can throw up a couple hundred words in no time. I am in a panic to get all the ideas down while they are fresh. But I work out my ideas while in the process of writing, and sometimes I disagree with myself, if that makes sense. Some writers analyze and think heavily before they write, then produce consummately crafted prose that requires no edits. Different strokes for different folks.

[lennygoran]

No I don't delete stuff. And I also am not in the habit of changing my posts, unless it's "in process". But you already know that.

Eight Edit's on the retort to Absinthe, I think might be some kind of record...

Yup, and there's a good reason for it. Rough draft, then post immediately. After that every single edit gets a post. Why? Because I have lost too many posts due to CMG going down, browser freeze ups, lost connections and the like.
My writing style in general is "free writing" with heavy editing. I write as fast as I can talk, so I can throw up a couple hundred words in no time. I am in a panic to get all the ideas down while they are fresh. But I work out my ideas while in the process of writing, and sometimes I disagree with myself, if that makes sense. Some writers analyze and think heavily before they write, then produce consummately crafted prose that requires no edits. Different strokes for different folks.

My approach is different still-I copy and paste from wiki! Len

[Chalkperson]

No I don't delete stuff. And I also am not in the habit of changing my posts, unless it's "in process". But you already know that.

Eight Edit's on the retort to Absinthe, I think might be some kind of record...

Yup, and there's a good reason for it. Rough draft, then post immediately. After that every single edit gets a post. Why? Because I have lost too many posts due to CMG going down, browser freeze ups, lost connections and the like.
My writing style in general is "free writing" with heavy editing. I write as fast as I can talk, so I can throw up a couple hundred words in no time. I am in a panic to get all the ideas down while they are fresh. But I work out my ideas while in the process of writing, and sometimes I disagree with myself, if that makes sense. Some writers analyze and think heavily before they write, then produce consummately crafted prose that requires no edits. Different strokes for different folks.

I guess PC's do not have a Copy All function, I copy my long posts frequently just in case, having the Edited tag on the bottom of the Post ruins the purity...

[slofstra]

No I don't delete stuff. And I also am not in the habit of changing my posts, unless it's "in process". But you already know that.

Eight Edit's on the retort to Absinthe, I think might be some kind of record...

Yup, and there's a good reason for it. Rough draft, then post immediately. After that every single edit gets a post. Why? Because I have lost too many posts due to CMG going down, browser freeze ups, lost connections and the like.
My writing style in general is "free writing" with heavy editing. I write as fast as I can talk, so I can throw up a couple hundred words in no time. I am in a panic to get all the ideas down while they are fresh. But I work out my ideas while in the process of writing, and sometimes I disagree with myself, if that makes sense. Some writers analyze and think heavily before they write, then produce consummately crafted prose that requires no edits. Different strokes for different folks.

I guess PC's do not have a Copy All function, I copy my long posts frequently just in case, having the Edited tag on the bottom of the Post ruins the purity...

Of course they do. I think you'll find my method is quicker. Valuable tip - If you get a browser freeze or the site hangs, press control-A and then control-C, which saves the entire post onto the clipboard. Control-V will bring it back either on a new posting window, or into a word processor. (Most people know about control-C and V, but not about control-A which selects the entire window of text in one stroke.

[Chalkperson]

Of course they do. I think you'll find my method is quicker. Valuable tip - If you get a browser freeze or the site hangs, press control-A and then control-C, which saves the entire post onto the clipboard. Control-V will bring it back either on a new posting window, or into a word processor. (Most people know about control-C and V, but not about control-A which selects the entire window of text in one stroke.

Control A they taught me at Grade School...

Can't see how your approach is quicker, more prone to unfinished thoughts being read, could lead to problems...

[Chalkperson]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

[lennygoran]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

But what about all the thoughtful comments made by others --could you explain why a deletion is better than a lock down? And how did you get to delete the whole thread--did Lance give you that power--will Meyerbeer threads be next! Regards, Len [on the run]

[slofstra]

Of course they do. I think you'll find my method is quicker. Valuable tip - If you get a browser freeze or the site hangs, press control-A and then control-C, which saves the entire post onto the clipboard. Control-V will bring it back either on a new posting window, or into a word processor. (Most people know about control-C and V, but not about control-A which selects the entire window of text in one stroke.

Control A they taught me at Grade School...

Hey, I didn't mean you. Other people read here too you know.

Can't see how your approach is quicker, more prone to unfinished thoughts being read, could lead to problems...

Yes, unfortunate. But I really have not had a problem with that approach previously. Usually there's enough of a lag between posting time and reading time, and generally, one isn't dealing with a sensitive topic anyway.

[slofstra]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

I don't really agree with the decision to delete the thread. To me, you're sending out a signal that biased comments are tolerated here. In all seriousness, Chalkie you could stand to do some reading on the importance of bias-free language and how the oppression of women is interlocked with the use of language. Your comments on Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread indicates to me that you really don't understand the issue as it pertains to the use of language. On the occasion of this young woman accomplishing a significant career milestone, I felt that the comment about her looks cheapened her achievement, especially appearing in the thread title. I was embarrassed by it, and I felt Sean also would be well served if he changed the title. Obviously my comment was not received in that light. In retrospect I realize most people don't really understand the relationship of language and power, and the history of how male commentary in general has been used to diminish the accomplishments of women and keep them in their perceived place. I don't think those optics were or are fully apparent to Sean or to you and perhaps not to most participants on this forum. I'm truly sorry it came out the way it did, and realized my comment might affect Sean's feelings, but I did try to mitigate the criticism as much as I could. I felt that I might be able to provoke a discussion that was needed, but unfortunately everyone just got their noses out of joint, including me.

[Chalkperson]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

But what about all the thoughtful comments made by others --could you explain why a deletion is better than a lock down? And how did you get to delete the whole thread--did Lance give you that power--will Meyerbeer threads be next! Regards, Len [on the run]

Lance did it as requested by Sean...Chalklyss

[slofstra]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

But what about all the thoughtful comments made by others --could you explain why a deletion is better than a lock down? And how did you get to delete the whole thread--did Lance give you that power--will Meyerbeer threads be next! Regards, Len [on the run]

Lance did it as requested by Sean...Chalklyss

At least the Meyerbeer will be safe. I do like some of the various pub brews, but that's one I haven't tried at this point.

[Chalkperson]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

I don't really agree with the decision to delete the thread. To me, you're sending out a signal that biased comments are tolerated here. In all seriousness, Chalkie you could stand to do some reading on the importance of bias-free language and how the oppression of women is interlocked with the use of language. Your comments on Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread indicates to me that you really don't understand the issue as it pertains to the use of language. On the occasion of this young woman accomplishing a significant career milestone, I felt that the comment about her looks cheapened her achievement, especially appearing in the thread title. I was embarrassed by it, and I felt Sean also would be well served if he changed the title. Obviously my comment was not received in that light. In retrospect I realize most people don't really understand the relationship of language and power, and the history of how male commentary in general has been used to diminish the accomplishments of women and keep them in their perceived place. I don't think those optics were or are fully apparent to Sean or to you and perhaps not to most participants on this forum. I'm truly sorry it came out the way it did, and realized my comment might affect Sean's feelings, but I did try to mitigate the criticism as much as I could. I felt that I might be able to provoke a discussion that was needed, but unfortunately everyone just got their noses out of joint, including me.

Nice lecture Henry, I really needed another one from you, you promised via PM that you would not argue with me publicly on a Moderating decision after I explained Lance's way of dealing with Toxic Threads, instead you immediately break your word and lecture me online yet again...well, you just did it with me for the last time...i'm handing in my notice as Chalklyss...

I'm joining Sean in not posting here any more, us Brits seem unable to communicate with you, Sean, Absinthe and myself were the only ones left, the others went because the Site became unfriendly and lost it's sense of humor, the cultural divide is just too great, and your wish/insistance to always have the final word on everything is something I just can't deal with, this Site is supposed to be fun, but, with you around there is no chance of that, i'm going back to Twitter...

Congratulations, you won, I hope it feels good...Chalkie

[slofstra]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

I don't really agree with the decision to delete the thread. To me, you're sending out a signal that biased comments are tolerated here. In all seriousness, Chalkie you could stand to do some reading on the importance of bias-free language and how the oppression of women is interlocked with the use of language. Your comments on Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread indicates to me that you really don't understand the issue as it pertains to the use of language. On the occasion of this young woman accomplishing a significant career milestone, I felt that the comment about her looks cheapened her achievement, especially appearing in the thread title. I was embarrassed by it, and I felt Sean also would be well served if he changed the title. Obviously my comment was not received in that light. In retrospect I realize most people don't really understand the relationship of language and power, and the history of how male commentary in general has been used to diminish the accomplishments of women and keep them in their perceived place. I don't think those optics were or are fully apparent to Sean or to you and perhaps not to most participants on this forum. I'm truly sorry it came out the way it did, and realized my comment might affect Sean's feelings, but I did try to mitigate the criticism as much as I could. I felt that I might be able to provoke a discussion that was needed, but unfortunately everyone just got their noses out of joint, including me.

Nice lecture Henry, I really needed another one from you, you promised via PM that you would not argue with me publicly on a Moderating decision after I explained Lance's way of dealing with Toxic Threads, instead you immediately break your word and lecture me online yet again...well, you just did it with me for the last time...i'm handing in my notice as Chalklyss...

I'm joining Sean in not posting here any more, us Brits seem unable to communicate with you, Sean, Absinthe and myself were the only ones left, the others went because the Site became unfriendly and lost it's sense of humor, the cultural divide is just too great, and your wish/insistance to always have the final word on everything is something I just can't deal with, this Site is supposed to be fun, but, with you around there is no chance of that, i'm going back to Twitter...

Congratulations, you won, I hope it feels good...Chalkie

I was commenting on your opinions, not on your moderator decision, i.e. to send this thread to the pub. I have not criticized that decision. Specifically, I took issue with your comments on "Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread". I think that those are opinions that you expressed, not decisions, and my comments are here so other people can take a kick at the can also.
My comment on deep-sixing the thread related to Lance's action not yours.

[jbuck919]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

I don't really agree with the decision to delete the thread. To me, you're sending out a signal that biased comments are tolerated here. In all seriousness, Chalkie you could stand to do some reading on the importance of bias-free language and how the oppression of women is interlocked with the use of language. Your comments on Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread indicates to me that you really don't understand the issue as it pertains to the use of language. On the occasion of this young woman accomplishing a significant career milestone, I felt that the comment about her looks cheapened her achievement, especially appearing in the thread title. I was embarrassed by it, and I felt Sean also would be well served if he changed the title. Obviously my comment was not received in that light. In retrospect I realize most people don't really understand the relationship of language and power, and the history of how male commentary in general has been used to diminish the accomplishments of women and keep them in their perceived place. I don't think those optics were or are fully apparent to Sean or to you and perhaps not to most participants on this forum. I'm truly sorry it came out the way it did, and realized my comment might affect Sean's feelings, but I did try to mitigate the criticism as much as I could. I felt that I might be able to provoke a discussion that was needed, but unfortunately everyone just got their noses out of joint, including me.

Nice lecture Henry, I really needed another one from you, you promised via PM that you would not argue with me publicly on a Moderating decision after I explained Lance's way of dealing with Toxic Threads, instead you immediately break your word and lecture me online yet again...well, you just did it with me for the last time...i'm handing in my notice as Chalklyss...

I'm joining Sean in not posting here any more, us Brits seem unable to communicate with you, Sean, Absinthe and myself were the only ones left, the others went because the Site became unfriendly and lost it's sense of humor, the cultural divide is just too great, and your wish/insistance to always have the final word on everything is something I just can't deal with, this Site is supposed to be fun, but, with you around there is no chance of that, i'm going back to Twitter...

Congratulations, you won, I hope it feels good...Chalkie

I was commenting on your opinions, not on your moderator decision, i.e. to send this thread to the pub. I have not criticized that decision. Specifically, I took issue with your comments on "Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread". I think that those are opinions that you expressed, not decisions, and my comments are here so other people can take a kick at the can also.
My comment on deep-sixing the thread related to Lance's action not yours.

That's still stubbornly getting the last word, Henry. You lose (and apparently so do we all).

[slofstra]

And the good news, for Sean, is that his Thread has finally been deleted by the Thought Police...

This has been a CMG Public Service Announcement...Chalklyss

I don't really agree with the decision to delete the thread. To me, you're sending out a signal that biased comments are tolerated here. In all seriousness, Chalkie you could stand to do some reading on the importance of bias-free language and how the oppression of women is interlocked with the use of language. Your comments on Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread indicates to me that you really don't understand the issue as it pertains to the use of language. On the occasion of this young woman accomplishing a significant career milestone, I felt that the comment about her looks cheapened her achievement, especially appearing in the thread title. I was embarrassed by it, and I felt Sean also would be well served if he changed the title. Obviously my comment was not received in that light. In retrospect I realize most people don't really understand the relationship of language and power, and the history of how male commentary in general has been used to diminish the accomplishments of women and keep them in their perceived place. I don't think those optics were or are fully apparent to Sean or to you and perhaps not to most participants on this forum. I'm truly sorry it came out the way it did, and realized my comment might affect Sean's feelings, but I did try to mitigate the criticism as much as I could. I felt that I might be able to provoke a discussion that was needed, but unfortunately everyone just got their noses out of joint, including me.

Nice lecture Henry, I really needed another one from you, you promised via PM that you would not argue with me publicly on a Moderating decision after I explained Lance's way of dealing with Toxic Threads, instead you immediately break your word and lecture me online yet again...well, you just did it with me for the last time...i'm handing in my notice as Chalklyss...

I'm joining Sean in not posting here any more, us Brits seem unable to communicate with you, Sean, Absinthe and myself were the only ones left, the others went because the Site became unfriendly and lost it's sense of humor, the cultural divide is just too great, and your wish/insistance to always have the final word on everything is something I just can't deal with, this Site is supposed to be fun, but, with you around there is no chance of that, i'm going back to Twitter...

Congratulations, you won, I hope it feels good...Chalkie

I was commenting on your opinions, not on your moderator decision, i.e. to send this thread to the pub. I have not criticized that decision. Specifically, I took issue with your comments on "Victorianism, on the difference between hot and gorgeous (not really very different), and your posting of the Emanuel Pahaud thread". I think that those are opinions that you expressed, not decisions, and my comments are here so other people can take a kick at the can also.
My comment on deep-sixing the thread related to Lance's action not yours.

That's still stubbornly getting the last word, Henry. You lose (and apparently so do we all).

Later edit - No John, it is not "stubbornly getting the last word"; it's trying to convince Chalkie that he has no reason to leave. Why shouldn't I do that?

As far as I know there is no guideline on "getting the last word". I really have no psychological need to have the last word; anyone including you, is quite welcome to respond to anything that I post here.

I know some of the conversation has been unpleasant. But tell me, have I actually attacked anyone personally? Have I broken any guidelines, other than using two swear words in quoting someone else ... and I won't do that again.

Just to help you out a bit on this, there is a [CMG] guideline that might apply on this thread,
(2c) Repeating endlessly the same arguments by the same combatants in the same thread;

But that's an easy one, if I am beginning to repeat myself, the moderator can just call me on it. For the most part, the topic has moved along nicely, and I certainly didn't initiate the conversation about deleting the thread, nor was it my intention to talk about that other thread, but if someone else mentions it, chalkie, absinthe, or you, I am going to respond.

[Auntie Lynn]

Well, mes amis, I have had a steady job hitting the keyboards (of all types) since I was 12 years old and no end in sight as my duties expand exponentially. I probably play more in one day than Martha, etc. does in a week. And I have average looks (there's a picture on Facebook)...