Vile betrayal by vile man

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barney
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Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:29 pm

Trump is abandoning the Kurds, allies America promised to protect and who did the heavy lifting against ISIS, to ethnic cleansing by Turkey. This beggars belief. Who would ever trust the Americans again? And Trump boasts of his "great and unmatched wisdom". I can scarcely think of a human being throughout history I despise more. He's the Nero of the 21st century. For once, even Republicans are disturbed.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-a ... 52yij.html

By Matthew Knott
October 8, 2019 — 5.43amNew York: US President Donald Trump, facing intense criticism from Republican allies over his decision to pull American troops out of northern Syria, has vowed to "totally destroy and obliterate" Turkey's economy if the country behaves badly in the region.

Senior Republicans lashed out at Trump's decision to allow Turkey to invade north-eastern Syria, saying it could expose Kurds in the area to ethnic cleansing and make America more vulnerable to a September 11-style terrorist attack.
The Trump administration announced the troop withdrawal in a late-night press release on Sunday local time (Monday AEDT), catching Washington's foreign policy community by surprise.

The area includes a camp that houses more than 70,000 people, including 20 Australian women and 46 children.
Advertisement

In a rare break with the President, Republican Senate leader Mitch McConnell said: "A precipitous withdrawal of US forces from Syria would only benefit Russia, Iran, and the Assad regime. And it would increase the risk that ISIS and other terrorist groups regroup.
US Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.

"As we learned the hard way during the Obama Administration, American interests are best served by American leadership, not by retreat or withdrawal."

Nikki Haley, Trump's former ambassador to the United Nations, said in a tweet: "The Kurds were instrumental in our successful fight against ISIS in Syria. Leaving them to die is a big mistake."

Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, one of Trump's most loyal allies in Congress, said: "This decision to abandon our Kurdish allies and turn Syria over to Russia, Iran, & Turkey will put every radical Islamist on steroids. Shot in the arm to the bad guys. Devastating for the good guys."
Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, usually a strident defender of the President, attacked his decision to withdraw troops from Syria.

Republican congresswoman Liz Cheney said: "Withdrawing US forces from Northern Syria is a catastrophic mistake that puts our gains against ISIS at risk and threatens US security.

"Terrorists thousands of miles away can and will use their safe-havens to launch attacks against America."

Trump defended his decision in a series of tweets on Monday local time (Tuesday AEDT), saying: "I was elected on getting out of these ridiculous endless wars, where our great Military functions as a policing operation to the benefit of people who don’t even like the USA."

He added: "As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!)"

Trump said Kurds had helped the US to defeat ISIS but added they were "paid massive amounts of money and equipment to do so".

In the late-night statement, White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham said: Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into Northern Syria.

"The United States Armed Forces will not support or be involved in the operation, and United States forces ... will no longer be in the immediate area."
Turkey to invade northern Syria

In a phone call to US President Donald Trump, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan says Turkey will soon invade northern Syria. The White House says no US troops will be involved.

The decision has drawn condemnation from both sides of politics, a rarity in the highly-polarised climate in Washington.

Republican Senator Mitt Romney and Democratic Senator Chris Murphy called for the administration to urgently reconsider its decision, which they labelled a "victory for Assad, Russia, Iran, and ISIS".
"The President’s decision to abandon our Kurdish allies in Northern Syria in the face of an assault by Turkey is a betrayal that will have grave humanitarian and national security consequences," they said in a statement.

"After enlisting support from the Kurds to help destroy ISIS and assuring Kurdish protection from Turkey, the US has now opened the door to their destruction.

"This severely undercuts America’s credibility as a reliable partner and creates a power vacuum in the region that benefits ISIS."

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:30 pm

Trump may change his mind if the pressure comes from both sides of politics as well as international condemnation. Wait and see.

Imagine Turkey expecting to be in the EU (oh, come to think of it that might be more appropriate than at first glance!). Hopefully this turkey will call itself an early Christmas.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:43 pm

You are right, of course, Sue - he may back down. But that he has proposed abandoning his best, most loyal allies in the Syrian war in favour of a thuggish authoritarian who wants to wipe them out confirms my belief that not only does he have no honour, he hasn't the slightest concept of what honour is.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:54 pm

barney wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:43 pm
You are right, of course, Sue - he may back down. But that he has proposed abandoning his best, most loyal allies in the Syrian war in favour of a thuggish authoritarian who wants to wipe them out confirms my belief that not only does he have no honour, he hasn't the slightest concept of what honour is.
I don't like to discuss Trump here on this site, but I feel America has obligations to the people who helped fight Isis. We would do the same for our friends in need.

lennygoran
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:13 am

barney wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:43 pm
You are right, of course, Sue - he may back down. But that he has proposed abandoning his best, most loyal allies in the Syrian war in favour of a thuggish authoritarian who wants to wipe them out confirms my belief that not only does he have no honour, he hasn't the slightest concept of what honour is.
Barney anything that helps Russia! Regards, Len [Go whistleblowers-go] :(

lennygoran
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 am

Belle wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:54 pm
I don't like to discuss Trump here on this site, but I feel America has obligations to the people who helped fight Isis. We would do the same for our friends in need.
Belle I think Trump wants your country to investigate the start of the Mueller report-maybe get some dirt on Biden-Trump is truly disgusting-if only Hillary had been elected. Regards, Len :(

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:05 pm

lennygoran wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 am
Belle wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:54 pm
I don't like to discuss Trump here on this site, but I feel America has obligations to the people who helped fight Isis. We would do the same for our friends in need.
Belle I think Trump wants your country to investigate the start of the Mueller report-maybe get some dirt on Biden-Trump is truly disgusting-if only Hillary had been elected. Regards, Len :(
I think you'll find we'll stay right out of it. We have our own battles to fight, Len.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:38 am

I wish you were right, Sue. But we are cravenly not staying out of it. Scott Morrison should be protecting Alexander Downer, who correctly reported on his London discussions, not subserviently offering him up.
What the article below suggests is what I fear. We have invested a lot in the American relationship, and believe in it, but under this treacherous hooligan in the White House that faith is not worth a piece of spit. We'd better take more care not to get China too offside, because we certainly can't rely on the US if push comes to shove, as it might in the next several years. And it really hurts me to write that, because for 70 years the US was the light on the hill and the global leader.

I strongly agree with the article below:

Chris Uhlmann, Nine political editor
The US President’s decision to forsake the Syrian Kurds must surely give his allies the last compelling piece of evidence to prove that they should not vest any faith in Donald Trump.

When Trump boasted "I defeated the Caliphate" at an impromptu Oval Office press conference on September 20 he omitted the fact that it was the Kurds who did much of the fighting and most of the dying in that war.

If an alliance that is measured in a sea of blood has no value to Trump, then what price does he put on defence relationships built on pledges of burden-sharing made by nations such as Australia?

Scott Morrison had a ring-side view of that Presidential boast as he sat, mostly silent, just a metre away.

In remarks at the ceremonial welcome to the White House on the same day Morrison went to a theme he would repeat in the Oval Office and at almost every event on his American pilgrimage.

"Australia may often look to the United States but we have never been a country that has been prepared to leave it to the United States," the Prime Minister said. "We don’t, that’s not our way. We pull our weight."

Australia has wagered that it can do business with this President by playing to his insatiable, narcissistic desire to always be "a winner". The argument designed to fill that void in his soul is that Australia is a willing defence partner and one of the few nations where the US enjoys a trade surplus. It’s a win/win with America on the winningest side.

But a fleeting moment in the extraordinary half hour in the Oval Office offered a snapshot of the difficulties Trump presents for his allies.

In response to a question on China, Trump – momentarily – remembered the Australian Prime Minister was sitting next to him.

"Scott has very strong opinions on China," the President said. "And I think I'd let him, maybe, express those opinions. Maybe you'd do it right now?" Trump said. "You're not going to get a better audience than this."

The frozen smile on Morrison’s face appeared to tighten as he took up the offer to speak, without enthusiasm.

"We have a comprehensive, strategic partnership with China," he intoned. "We work well with China."

One suspects these weren’t the "strong opinions" Morrison had expressed to Trump in private but, put on the spot, the Prime Minister improvised well and eventually landed on the mild criticism that China shouldn’t still be allowed to harvest developing nation trade concessions.

We need to hope that Australia’s defence and intelligence community has got the memo about the mercurial President and that it is also capable of improvisation.

The stock argument by the Australian military is that the US Alliance is broad and deep and goes well beyond a relationship with an individual president. Let’s hope that is true.

There is a lot of goodwill for Australia in the US, but the President is the Commander in Chief and Trump looks likely to be in office until 2024. His whims add a level of risk to our defence calculations that cannot be swept aside and a long-term Trump incumbency must change the nature of politics in the US and its relationships with the world.

This is a good time for a reassessment and one appears to be afoot. It is also a good time to consider some other emerging threats.

In a speech to a sea power conference on Tuesday Minister for Defence Linda Reynolds admitted that the 2016 Defence White Paper had misread the pace of change in our region, as the strategic competition between the US and China galloped ahead of the reckoning by our analysts.

There is something else missing from the 2016 assessment – any acknowledgement of the conflict already raging in the grey zone of political interference. We seem to have put all our bets on high-cost assets that will not be delivered for decades, when the immediate concern lies inside our borders. This battle may never flare into conventional war but be a long-term incremental erosion of our democracy.

This possibility of a hybrid conflict has clearly troubled Chief of the Defence Force Angus Campbell. In a June speech he contemplated a war without guns.

"Political warfare subverts and undermines," General Campbell said. "It penetrates the mind … It’s not limited by the constructs or constructions of peace or peacetime. It’s constant and scalable, and most importantly, it adapts."

The general quoted two great Chinese strategic thinkers to define the value of political warfare.

"More than 2000 years ago, Sun Tzu declared that, ‘subjugating the enemy’s army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence’," he said. "Mao taught that, ‘warfare is politics with bloodshed; politics is warfare without bloodshed’."

It could be argued the first shots in this battle have already been fired.

Chris Uhlmann is political editor for Nine News.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:41 pm

I'm interested that only Lenny of our American posters has said anything. Is that because of Trump-fatigue, or because you think I am wrong?
It has to be quite an issue in the US if even Republicans are condemning it, does it not?

jserraglio
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:51 pm

barney wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:41 pm
I'm interested that only Lenny of our American posters has said anything. Is that because of Trump-fatigue, or because you think I am wrong?
It has to be quite an issue in the US if even Republicans are condemning it, does it not?
Qui tacet consentire videtur.

But see the NYT story on Trump's betrayal of the Kurds recently posted here.

Rach3
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Rach3 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:49 pm

Per CNN: " When asked Wednesday about the threat of ISIS prisoners escaping, President Donald Trump claimed that some of the most dangerous ISIS prisoners had been moved, ' putting them in other areas where it's secure.' He dismissed the overall threat, replying, "Well, they're going to be escaping to Europe.'"

Trump is a sick maniac.Nice going Trumpsters and GOP cowards. If PM Morrison thinks Trump is a friend or can be trusted , Morrison is a fool.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:53 pm

Barney, I feel the same sense of loss about this important alliance and I'll defend Morrison for trying to protect it when our Leader of the Opposition made the most appalling, impolitic and very public comments about the US President. Like it or not, Trump was elected by the people and for an aspiring Australian PM to come out the way he did showed just how out of touch he was. Those voters in both our countries may all be stupid, evil and bad, but our Prime Minister isn't going to treat them that way. And neither am I, not least because I'd want to look at the motivations and hopes of US voters who turned to a person like Trump in the first place. And this would necessarily mean exploring the yawning chasm of inner-urban progressivism and its alienation from the people!! :mrgreen:

International political intrigue isn't something new; it wasn't invented by the LNP. I remember recent trouble about phone-tapping in Indonesia from our intelligence agencies. On and on it goes. Morrison is hedging his bets; he's very capable of fork-tongued diplomacy. His worst sin, Barney, was in being elected in the first place - and in that regard he's in a similar situation to Donald Trump.

Rach3: There is no proof that Scott Morrison thinks Trump is any more of a friend to be trusted than he does Macron, Johnson or Merkel. He plays the game, as is his and our right. He knows as I do; today's rooster is tomorrow's feather duster.

I note that Turkey has moved militarily against the Kurds. The Middle East is a total shambles and it was Ronald Reagan, as I recall, who said that the next world war would be occurring on that soil. As a former PM of ours observed a few years ago, "there are no good guys in the Middle East". And yet western leaders trip over themselves to accommodate the Saudi regime; they do exactly as you accuse our PM of doing with Trump. Two words are important here for the informed observer: political expedience.

One thing is for certain; I don't want to become involved in a war of words on this site about Donald Trump or anything political. There's enough hatred in our world as it is without me having to add a single syllable to the discourse. And I subscribe to the same philosophy as I suspect belongs to our PM: I am perfectly happy to be friends with people whose opinions are far different from my own.

Rach3
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Rach3 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:23 pm

Belle wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:53 pm

Rach3: There is no proof that Scott Morrison thinks Trump is any more of a friend to be trusted than he does Macron, Johnson or Merkel. He plays the game, as is his and our right.

Ah yes, Munich 1938 all over again.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:55 pm

1936, wasn't it. The news is worse, I'm afraid; my son will get to meet your President when he visits Australia (as he does other international leaders)!

This comment might appeal to you; it was written under an item in "The Australian" this morning about this very topic:

Donald is a bull in a china shop on foreign affairs but managing to upset both sides and many allies in a week takes a special gift.

Rach3
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Rach3 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:06 pm

"However much we may sympathize with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbour, we cannot in all circumstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in war simply on her account. If we have to fight it must be on larger issues than that."
PM Neville CHamberlain,Broadcast (27 September 1938), quoted in The Times (28 September 1938), p. 10

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 52zd6.html
As I said.

jserraglio
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:25 pm

Trump's betrayal of the Kurds will reignite suspicions that Trump is Putin's 'Siberian Candidate'. Russia is reportedly preparing to attack the Kurds from the south in coordination with Turkish air and ground forces from the north (source: WAPO's David Ignatius).

Turkey is a huge deal. Trump now will most assuredly be impeached by the House, and sooner rather than later. The chances that Senate Republicans may vote to remove him, though still a long shot, have to some extent increased with Trump's Turkey turkeys.

And news of more alleged illegal activity by Donald Trump involving Turkey (where Trump himself admits he has a conflict of interest) is breaking late tonite.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nd=premium

President Donald Trump pressed then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to help persuade the Justice Department to drop a criminal case against an Iranian-Turkish gold trader who was a client of Rudy Giuliani, according to three people familiar with the 2017 meeting in the Oval Office.

Tillerson refused, arguing it would constitute interference in an ongoing investigation of the trader, Reza Zarrab, according to the people. They said other participants in the Oval Office were shocked by the request.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:01 pm

Rach3 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:06 pm
"However much we may sympathize with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbour, we cannot in all circumstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in war simply on her account. If we have to fight it must be on larger issues than that."
PM Neville CHamberlain,Broadcast (27 September 1938), quoted in The Times (28 September 1938), p. 10

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-amer ... 52zd6.html
As I said.
Those comments about the Kurds not helping in WW2 are just silly.

OK, I thought you were referring to the public spectacle which was the 1936 Olympic Games in Germany!! A propaganda exercise if ever there was one.

An erstwhile PM of our country referred to the Chinese nation in about 2009 as "rat f*****s". How's that for mature diplomacy??!! That's about as stupid as "didn't help us in WW2".

Here's the latest on our PM's position on this, published in "The Australian" just now:

Scott Morrison and Foreign Minister Marise Payne have said they are “deeply troubled” by Turkey’s invasion of northeastern Syria, saying the decision could have “grave consequences” for the region’s security.

Turkey began its invasion of northeastern Syria early on Thursday (AEDT), launching a large scale air strike and ground offensive against Kurdish targets. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan tweeted that Operation Peace Spring would prevent a “terror corridor’’ along the Turkish border.

In a joint statement the Prime Minister and Senator Payne said they held concerns the move could lead to the resurgence of Islamic State, while revealing they been in direct contact with both Ankara and Washington to express these worries.

“Actions of this nature will have grave consequences for regional security and could significantly undermine the gains made by the international coalition in its fight against Da’esh, which remains a serious threat to regional peace and security despite its territorial defeat,” they said.

“It will cause additional civilian suffering, lead to greater population displacement, and further inhibit humanitarian access.”

“While Turkey has legitimate domestic security concerns, unilateral cross-border military action will not solve these concerns. We have expressed this view directly to the Turkish Government.”

Mr Morrison and Senator Payne both called for a de-escalation in tensions.

“We urge restraint and call on all parties to the conflict in Syria to avoid escalatory or opportunistic actions that cause further instability and humanitarian suffering,” they said. “The Australian Government notes that the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) have been steadfast partners for the international Coalition in the fight against Da’esh, and have borne a significant share of the sacrifice.”

Earlier, Mr Morrison defended Donald Trump’s decision on Monday to withdraw US troops from northern Syria, which left the Kurds isolated and open to Turkey’s attack.

“The decision of the United States is a matter for them. It’s a sovereign position of the United States,” Mr Morrison said. “It’s not for me to run a commentary. They are their troops deployed by the US government, not by Australia or anyone else and the US has been doing the lion’s share of the lifting when it has come to the efforts in the Middle East.

“As I said yesterday it’s a statement of fact and not the a statement of commentary this decision is consistent with statements the President has been making for some time.”

Mr Morrison reiterated it was Turkey’s actions that concerned him and had led to the ratcheting-up of tensions.

“Let’s be clear it’s the Turkish government that is taking action here to create an unstable situation, they’re the ones who are actually deploying and seeking to walk across the border and to take actions in another nation state,” Mr Morrison said.

“It is Turkish government’s doing that and it’s the actions of the Turkish government that concern Australia very seriously.”

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:31 am

Sue, I was impressed by Morrison's first months. I thought he was deft and as centrist as he could be. But I think his handling of the US relationship has been awkward, inept and very much not in Australia's interests. He has come across as a toady, lickspittle and suck, who will agree with everything Trump says and not distance Australia in any way. Once it might have been wise to stick with the US, right or wrong, "all the way with LBJ" as a Liberal PM famously said. But now - as defence strategist Hugh White keeps pointing out - that is no longer a realistic option. We have to take an independent stance in AUSTRALIA's interest, something Morrison lacks the ability to see. Maybe he enjoys visiting the White House and being called man of titanium, but his responsibility is to you and me and 24 million other Australians, not the Republican Party. To put all our eggs in a basket carried by a treacherous, narcissistic and very stupid US President, who would ditch us in a heartbeat, is not in our national interest.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:35 am

Belle wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:55 pm
1936, wasn't it. The news is worse, I'm afraid; my son will get to meet your President when he visits Australia (as he does other international leaders)!

This comment might appeal to you; it was written under an item in "The Australian" this morning about this very topic:

Donald is a bull in a china shop on foreign affairs but managing to upset both sides and many allies in a week takes a special gift.
Well, obviously your son will conduct himself professionally as always. But I wish he'd kick Trump in the shins. :D

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:36 am

jserraglio wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:25 pm
Trump's betrayal of the Kurds will reignite suspicions that Trump is Putin's 'Siberian Candidate'. Russia is reportedly preparing to attack the Kurds from the south in coordination with Turkish air and ground forces from the north (source: WAPO's David Ignatius).

Turkey is a huge deal. Trump now will most assuredly be impeached by the House, and sooner rather than later. The chances that Senate Republicans may vote to remove him, though still a long shot, have to some extent increased with Trump's Turkey turkeys.

And news of more alleged illegal activity by Donald Trump involving Turkey (where Trump himself admits he has a conflict of interest) is breaking late tonite.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nd=premium

President Donald Trump pressed then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to help persuade the Justice Department to drop a criminal case against an Iranian-Turkish gold trader who was a client of Rudy Giuliani, according to three people familiar with the 2017 meeting in the Oval Office.

Tillerson refused, arguing it would constitute interference in an ongoing investigation of the trader, Reza Zarrab, according to the people. They said other participants in the Oval Office were shocked by the request.
I hope your analysis is accurate. And I suspect it is.

lennygoran
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:44 am

barney wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:41 pm
I'm interested that only Lenny of our American posters has said anything. Is that because of Trump-fatigue, or because you think I am wrong?
Barney even I'm tiring-still gotta keep going-this guy has to go! Just today news from Tillerson and Conway!

President Trump Urged Rex Tillerson to Help Drop DOJ Charges for Giuliani Client


George Conway: White House letter condemning impeachment proceedings is 'trash'

Regards, Len :x

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:47 am

jserraglio wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:51 pm
Qui tacet consentire videtur.

Got it-okay I had to look it up! Regards, Len :lol:

"A silence procedure or tacit acceptance procedure (French: procédure d'approbation tacite; Latin: qui tacet consentire videtur, "he who is silent is taken to agree", "silence implies/means consent") is a way of formally adopting texts, often, but not exclusively in international political context."

lennygoran
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:53 am

Belle wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:53 pm
I note that Turkey has moved militarily against the Kurds.
That's right-the Kurds didn't help us at Normandy! This from The Stable Genius! Regards, Len :(

"Trump defends allowing Turkish offensive against Kurds: ‘They didn’t help us in the Second World War’"

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:29 am

barney wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:31 am
Sue, I was impressed by Morrison's first months. I thought he was deft and as centrist as he could be. But I think his handling of the US relationship has been awkward, inept and very much not in Australia's interests. He has come across as a toady, lickspittle and suck, who will agree with everything Trump says and not distance Australia in any way. Once it might have been wise to stick with the US, right or wrong, "all the way with LBJ" as a Liberal PM famously said. But now - as defence strategist Hugh White keeps pointing out - that is no longer a realistic option. We have to take an independent stance in AUSTRALIA's interest, something Morrison lacks the ability to see. Maybe he enjoys visiting the White House and being called man of titanium, but his responsibility is to you and me and 24 million other Australians, not the Republican Party. To put all our eggs in a basket carried by a treacherous, narcissistic and very stupid US President, who would ditch us in a heartbeat, is not in our national interest.
There have always been Australians who hate America and who have hated our relationship with that country; none of that is new in any way. I do believe Morrison is taking an independent stance as he's using diplomacy in dealing with China, irrespective of what the White House's attitude is or ever has been. He knows which side our bread is buttered on. Speaking of narcissists, he wouldn't call them "Rat F*****s"!!!

The situation in Turkey/Syria and with the Kurds is complex, long-standing and an absolute minefield. As Abbott said a few years ago, "there are no good guys" and I think that's pretty right. I always cringe when I see our people waxing lyrical about Gallipoli and the Turks during that annual pilgrimage for Anzac Day and I can tell you that makes me a whole lot sicker than seeing our PM being friendly to our ally the USA and Donald Trump. I wouldn't trust the Turks as far as I could throw them. They want to join the EU and, really, it would be a good fit for both of them!!

And what of the international toadying to Saudi Arabia - that haven for the caliphate and international terrorism. Where women cannot drive cars and enemies of the state are despatched with the snap of a finger. I suppose it all boils down to this, somehow or other:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:20 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:29 am
barney wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:31 am
Sue, I was impressed by Morrison's first months. I thought he was deft and as centrist as he could be. But I think his handling of the US relationship has been awkward, inept and very much not in Australia's interests. He has come across as a toady, lickspittle and suck, who will agree with everything Trump says and not distance Australia in any way. Once it might have been wise to stick with the US, right or wrong, "all the way with LBJ" as a Liberal PM famously said. But now - as defence strategist Hugh White keeps pointing out - that is no longer a realistic option. We have to take an independent stance in AUSTRALIA's interest, something Morrison lacks the ability to see. Maybe he enjoys visiting the White House and being called man of titanium, but his responsibility is to you and me and 24 million other Australians, not the Republican Party. To put all our eggs in a basket carried by a treacherous, narcissistic and very stupid US President, who would ditch us in a heartbeat, is not in our national interest.
There have always been Australians who hate America and who have hated our relationship with that country; none of that is new in any way. I do believe Morrison is taking an independent stance as he's using diplomacy in dealing with China, irrespective of what the White House's attitude is or ever has been. He knows which side our bread is buttered on. Speaking of narcissists, he wouldn't call them "Rat F*****s"!!!

The situation in Turkey/Syria and with the Kurds is complex, long-standing and an absolute minefield. As Abbott said a few years ago, "there are no good guys" and I think that's pretty right. I always cringe when I see our people waxing lyrical about Gallipoli and the Turks during that annual pilgrimage for Anzac Day and I can tell you that makes me a whole lot sicker than seeing our PM being friendly to our ally the USA and Donald Trump. I wouldn't trust the Turks as far as I could throw them. They want to join the EU and, really, it would be a good fit for both of them!!

And what of the international toadying to Saudi Arabia - that haven for the caliphate and international terrorism. Where women cannot drive cars and enemies of the state are despatched with the snap of a finger. I suppose it all boils down to this, somehow or other:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
You are right about Australians who hate America, and it's a position I reject. It's usually kneejerk left. I am certainly not one of those. I am grateful for the post-war role America played, and we've had better and worse presidents over the years, but never one as contemptuous as Trump. Do you trust him to have the slightest concern for Australian interests? And if so, what is your reasoning?


International toadying to Saudi Arabia? That too is despicable, and again Trump is far worse than any before because he has big commercial interests with the Saudis. Meanwhile they have spent more than $100 billion on spreading their ultra-exclusive Wahhabi view of Islam, increasing intolerance in the Muslim world, and many of their private citizens are supporting terrorism. So no argument from me there.


But the fact that some other people are despicable too is no defence for the despicable acts of Trump.


We'll have to disagree on Morrison. I think he's been cowardly and spineless. He allowed Trump to use him on the US trip without a moment of demur, turning the launch of Pratt's factory into a Trump re-election rally, and has refused to criticise Trump's abandonment of the Kurds. I wouldn't want to rely on Morrison's integrity if I were in a hole.

In particular he was dangerously irresponsible, given our relationship with China, to pretend that any criticism of Gladys Liu for being a Communist propagandist was a racially inspired slur on our 1.2 million ethnic Chinese citizens. There was nothing racist about it, of course. It was a legitimate concern about possible divided loyalties of one Member of Parliament. It was that scurrilously low attempt to distort the debate that really turned me off Morrison. This matters to me because Morrison has made much of his Christian faith. It didn't lead to integrity in that case. It seems he will drop those principles as soon as they are inconvenient (like many others, of course, on both sides of politics).

As I said, before that I thought he had done well and started something of a unifying process. Gone now.

jserraglio
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:58 am

GOP neo-con wing's conflict with Trump over Syria has already damaged his Presidency and, if left to fester, could bring it down.

FOX NEWS

Turkey's incursion into northern Syria following President Trump's unexpected withdrawal of troops from the region has reignited a fight within the Republican Party over America's role in the Middle East -- and seen the president face withering criticism from some of his otherwise staunchest allies in Congress.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced Wednesday that Ankara had launched its offensive against Kurdish fighters in Syria - a key U.S. ally in the battle against the Islamic State. As convoys of Turkish Armed Forces vehicles rolled toward the border with Syria, Turkey launched airstrikes and artillery fire at Kurdish strongholds in the country.
The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said one fighter from the Syrian Democratic Forces has been killed so far and six others have been wounded. An SDF spokesperson also said two civilians have been killed as a result of the "Turkish bombardment" of the village of Mashrafa and Kurdish forces are warning of a "humanitarian catastrophe" that could potentially unfold because of the Turkish military operation.
TURKISH INCURSION INTO SYRIA WOULD FORCE KURDS TO FLEE, FREEING CAPTURED ISIS MEMBERS, GEN. KEANE SAYS
The news of the Turkish assault ratcheted up the criticism Trump has received from the neoconservative wing of the Republican Party, which has long defended the U.S. presence in the volatile region and, in response to the troop pullback, warned that Washington is abandoning its only true ally in Syria.
"News from Syria is sickening," Rep. Liz Cheney, R-Wyo., the House's third-ranking Republican, tweeted on Wednesday. "Turkish troops preparing to invade Syria from the north, Russian-backed forces from the south, ISIS fighters attacking Raqqa."
She added: "Impossible to understand why [President Trump] is leaving America's allies to be slaughtered and enabling the return of ISIS."
In arguably the tensest situation the president has been in with his own party since assuming office -- amid an impeachment fight where most GOP lawmakers still support him -- Trump sought to clarify his stance Wednesday afternoon. In a written statement, he said he does not support Turkey's invasion of the region, but added that his goal since launching his presidential bid in 2015 was to stop "these endless, senseless wars—especially those that don't benefit the United States."
"The United States does not endorse this attack and has made it clear to Turkey that this operation is a bad idea," Trump said in a statement. "Turkey has committed to protecting civilians, protecting religious minorities, including Christians, and ensuring no humanitarian crisis takes place—and we will hold them to this commitment."
SEN. MCSALLY SAYS US SHOULD STAND WITH KURDS
The president's statements followed a number of tweets Wednesday morning defending his push to stop "endless wars."
"Fighting between various groups that has been going on for hundreds of years. USA should never have been in Middle East," Trump tweeted. "The stupid endless wars, for us, are ending!"
The president added that he is "slowly & carefully" bringing home "our great soldiers & military," in line with his campaign promise to do so.
He added: "Our focus is on the BIG PICTURE! THE USA IS GREATER THAN EVER BEFORE!"
Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., one of Trump's closest allies and a leading voice in the Senate on foreign policy, stepped up his criticism of the president Wednesday, telling "Fox & Friends" that if Trump "follows through with this, it would be the biggest mistake of his presidency."
FRENCH OFFICIALS CRITICIZE US OVER ANNOUNCED MILITARY PULLBACK
In tweets, Graham also urged prayers for "our Kurdish allies who have been shamelessly abandoned by the Trump Administration," adding, "This move ensures the reemergence of ISIS." He also said he would lead an effort in Congress to "make Erdogan pay a heavy price."
While Trump's decision has largely been panned by congressional Republicans, the president has a very vocal ally on Capitol Hill: Kentucky Republican Sen. Rand Paul.
Trump and Paul have clashed on various issues since both were vying for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016, but the two share a common ideology when it comes to opposing American intervention in foreign countries.
"I know this [Trump] is the first President in my lifetime to understand what is our national interest and what is not, Paul tweeted. "He is stopping the endless wars and we will be stronger as a result. The Cheney/Graham Neocon War Caucus has cost us too much fighting endless wars."
CLICK HERE FOR THE ALL-NEW FOXBUSINESS.COM
Trump's call for ending U.S. military involvement in the Middle East and bringing the troops home was a feature of his presidential campaign, but it flies in the face of many decades of bipartisan American policy, even as the Trump administration and its immediate predecessor have tried to give additional attention to what they see as long-term security threats elsewhere, including from China and Russia.
The U.S. has more than 10,000 troops based across the Middle East, including about 5,200 in Iraq, 1,000 in Syria and several thousand others at bases in Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar. Also, the U.S. Navy's Mideast headquarters is at Bahrain in the Persian Gulf.
Just a couple of months ago the Pentagon reestablished a troop presence in Saudi Arabia after a lengthy absence, and in May it added air and naval forces in the region in response to what it views as worrying threats from Iran.
Fox News' Greg Norman and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
©2019 FOX News Network, LLC. All rights reserved.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:15 pm

Thanks for posting that, Joseph. According to an article in Australian press, his rock-solid supporters in Pennsylvania and the like are not even interested, let alone concerned, so I hope you are right.

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:19 pm

I don't trust Trump and I'm sure Morrison doesn't either. Nor does he trust the Chinese. On a scale of atrocities China beats anything the USA has ever done or could ever do and yet we're expected to 'kid glove' China and despise Donald Trump. I cannot do double standards myself.

The Gladys Lui episode; Morrison is protecting his majority, just as Gillard did with Craig Thompson. Never a good look but political expedience. I could say that he's playing the Left at its own game in calling it 'racism'; that's their standard response to any form of criticism.

The influence of the Chinese in our country is a huge, ongoing concern for me. Not just in Australian but the world over. I never worried about American hegemony because at its heart is and was democracy; not so a regime that is responsible for the deaths of millions and millions of people over the decades and that intimidates its diaspora with real, live threats of those still living at home. Considered in that light Donald Trump is a transient threat, precisely because he'll be voted out in a democracy. Meanwhile, the Chinese leader has declared himself leader for life. Some balance needed in the Trump case, I feel, when those things are considered.

Apropos Trump - I've avoided discussing him here largely because he doesn't interest me. But instead of reflecting on WHY the American people got him in the first place the internecine wars continue in Washington and the urban belts - far away from the real lives of everyday people. It's like a large, cacophonous, uncontrollable noise - with everybody shouting at once - and I want to hold my hand up like an orchestra conductor and say STOP!! The hatred is palpable. Some soul searching desperately needed by the Democrats. Instead they let their cable news acolytes act like some single-entity 'Leni Riefenstahl' which staunchly prevents self-awareness. Proselytizing the progressive agenda without any concern for the ordinary folk. Any concession usually involves finger pointing and 'it's all your fault'. Sort it out, people. You got a massive disruptor in the White House for a reason and don't look to 'Leni Riefenstahl' to she any light. Back to core business; that would be a great start. Listen to the people and their needs. He's not my President, but those are my suggestions to remedy the situation and return to normal politics!!

An important point to note; democracy never guarantees to get it right. But it does guarantee a vote.

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:14 pm

Kudos to the news media, esp. the NYT and WAPO, for exposing Trump's hate-based antics. Too bad about the gulls that voted for him and now want to shoot the messenger.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:17 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:14 pm
Kudos to the news media, esp. the NYT and WAPO, for exposing Trump's misbehavior. Too bad about the gulls that voted for him and now want to shoot the messenger.
I don't see any hope if this is the best response on offer. The people might be fools and gulls but that's the nature of democracy; it isn't based on IQ and if it were we would have an altogether different kind of horror to deal with. And that news media of which you speak; they started on Trump long before he was elected. They keep reverting to the same old tics. People have had it up to here!! :mrgreen:

This latest just in on Turkey/Syria/Kurds (only a small part of the report): it was Merkel who started the immigrant crisis in Europe by welcoming the world to Europe and if Erdogan fulfills his threat it is Merkel who'll have to wear the blame.

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan urged the US and other NATO allies to back Turkey’s military offensive in Syria, threatening to allow waves of Syrian refugees to head for European shores if his country doesn’t receive adequate support.

The offensive, which began Wednesday with air and ground attacks along the border with Syria, targets US-backed Kurdish forces Turkey views as a terrorist threat. It has drawn broad political and popular support in Turkey, but elicited near-unanimous condemnation outside the country — including from the US, the EU and China — that has left Ankara isolated.

Mr Erdogan said 109 Kurdish fighters had been killed as Turkish troops captured villages on the Syrian side of the border and moved deeper into Syria. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights put the death toll among Kurdish forces at 23. Six civilians were killed in Turkey on Thursday by mortars fired from the Syrian side, according to Turkish officials, while Kurdish forces reported three civilians had died under Turkish bombs.

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Trump's gulls are not idiots. They are just dupes. As Mitt Romney--a conservative I respect--pointed out long ago.

Trump will be impeached. And if he continues his game of blind man buff, he may even put his own otherwise unlikely removal into play. Yes, an elected official can and should be removed for cause. And for that Trump is eminently qualified.

Americans have had it up it up to here—with tyranny.

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:50 pm

There are three types of tyranny, it seems to me:
1. Real, existential threats to human life and to people who are systematically controlled with a complete lack of freedom;
2. Dictates about how one should think, act and behave with severe sanctions for those who deviate from the orthodoxy;
3. The tyranny of not having your own government support your own ideas.

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:01 pm

Tyranny is like love. Once one experiences it, one doesn't need to parse it.

Trump is a scoundrel, bigot and tyrant. He was elected by a popular minority, but now a majority of the people, which includes more and more every day of the very ones he duped, favor taking extraordinary steps aimed at impeaching him.

He has hinted that he may not leave office even in the event of his losing the upcoming election. But he will surely be impeached; whether or not he can be successfully removed is another question.

In our country, the people rule, not elected officials turned despot.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:47 pm

As I said before, he's not my President. I merely offer suggestions from a distance about how to tame the wild beast which is your body politik. Your country needs healing, the first step towards which is sincere reflection. Our federal opposition is undergoing this same process right now. Still shell-shocked about losing the election nobody thought they could lose (sound familiar?) they are now admitting that the people were offered "hand-outs instead of hope".

Australians have always been pretty easy-going and mild-mannered people - well, they used to be - and we do have our share of tyranny here in what can be said and what cannot be said. Reputational destruction awaits anybody who dares to stray away from the new 'orthodoxies'. It's a problem in most western democracies now; apparently people haven't learned the lessons from the USSR and other totalitarian states. Punching out agitprop isn't going to engineer a better society. We used to have an 'anti-authority' streak of humour which has been virtually stripped away for fear of offending. Now it's a dangerous thing to laugh at anything at all. Social engineering has had a massive, unpleasant opportunity cost.

And you might be interested in this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf9jBtA_LhA

Self-reflection in politics; it's like marriage counselling. If you want it to work it necessarily involves some unpleasant truths being faced. It will never work if it becomes "it was all your fault".

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:39 am

Sadly, we are long past the stage of 'marriage counseling' where reflection and healing might attend upon an amicable settlement of differences. The resolution of the coming conflict, if and when it occurs, is unlikely to be a no-fault separation, but instead much more like a nasty and recriminatory hellish divorce.

Here is the situation with the President as I see it unfolding before me. Regrettably, it is dire:

Domestically, Americans' basic liberties are being eroded by a solipsistic Executive who has governed by Twitter edicts that are largely independent of policy formation within his own Administration.

He has also repeatedly subjected American citizens to scurrilous verbal abuse both by name and as scapegoats in a group, just as he did again last Thursday nite in Minnesota in an off-script, race-baiting, bigoted fugue.

On the foreign front, this rogue Executive has connived with Vladimir Putin to alienate our allies and dismantle our alliances. Consequently, the fate of Europe and the Middle East now hangs in the balance.

The Constitution, in my view, must now be employed to dislodge the President from the office he originally obtained illegitimately with a significant boost from the Russians and which he has subsequently disgraced.

That won't be easy — it may even be impossible given that the President has stated that he regards such an effort as a coup d'etat, thereby implying that he can only be removed by force.

But a consensus for lawful removal is slowly beginning to form. Even the conservative Fox News outlet reports that a clear majority of registered GOP voters now favors considering impeachment coupled with removal as a remedy for unchecked Executive power.

The American ideal encompasses government by the people and their representatives. It does not countenance an elected despot who thinks he can rule by fiat.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:19 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:19 pm
I don't trust Trump and I'm sure Morrison doesn't either. Nor does he trust the Chinese. On a scale of atrocities China beats anything the USA has ever done or could ever do and yet we're expected to 'kid glove' China and despise Donald Trump. I cannot do double standards myself.

The Gladys Lui episode; Morrison is protecting his majority, just as Gillard did with Craig Thompson. Never a good look but political expedience. I could say that he's playing the Left at its own game in calling it 'racism'; that's their standard response to any form of criticism.

The influence of the Chinese in our country is a huge, ongoing concern for me. Not just in Australian but the world over. I never worried about American hegemony because at its heart is and was democracy; not so a regime that is responsible for the deaths of millions and millions of people over the decades and that intimidates its diaspora with real, live threats of those still living at home. Considered in that light Donald Trump is a transient threat, precisely because he'll be voted out in a democracy. Meanwhile, the Chinese leader has declared himself leader for life. Some balance needed in the Trump case, I feel, when those things are considered.

Apropos Trump - I've avoided discussing him here largely because he doesn't interest me. But instead of reflecting on WHY the American people got him in the first place the internecine wars continue in Washington and the urban belts - far away from the real lives of everyday people. It's like a large, cacophonous, uncontrollable noise - with everybody shouting at once - and I want to hold my hand up like an orchestra conductor and say STOP!! The hatred is palpable. Some soul searching desperately needed by the Democrats. Instead they let their cable news acolytes act like some single-entity 'Leni Riefenstahl' which staunchly prevents self-awareness. Proselytizing the progressive agenda without any concern for the ordinary folk. Any concession usually involves finger pointing and 'it's all your fault'. Sort it out, people. You got a massive disruptor in the White House for a reason and don't look to 'Leni Riefenstahl' to she any light. Back to core business; that would be a great start. Listen to the people and their needs. He's not my President, but those are my suggestions to remedy the situation and return to normal politics!!

An important point to note; democracy never guarantees to get it right. But it does guarantee a vote.
I entirely agree with you on China, and have written many times to my MP, not to mention the PM, Peter Dutton, and others. I think Gladys Liu is a weeping sore. I entirely agree with you that the left often ascribes racism in a reflexive, lazy and ridiculous way. Even so, you can't seriously be advancing the argument that this justifies the Prime Minister doing the same. He's the PM, he has certain responsibilities, and in that moment he was entirely unworthy of the office. (Would Labor have done the same thing? Almost certainly. So what?)

It is not racist to have concerns about a woman who worked for three arms of the Communist Party propaganda machine who happens to be ethnically Chinese. It is no slur on any Chinese who has not worked for three arms of the Chinese Communist Party propaganda machine. One might as well say that in criticising Scot Morrison I am slurring every white man in Australia. Or every supporter of the Liberal Party. Or whatever identity suits at the moment. Stupid.

I'm not a person who hates easily. I can't name any other person I hate right now. But I accept your charge here: I do loathe Donald Trump with a visceral loathing. He is almost single-handedly ruining the post-war concordat that has kept the world relatively safe for 70 years. He is swiftly reducing the US to a second-rate power (in influence, not military), ruining confidence in alliances. In person, he is the most contemptible, narcissistic, infantile megalomaniac I have seen, and I suspect his IQ does not reach triple figures. His vocabulary is risible, his lying and self-interest utterly apparent to everyone but him, in his "unmatched wisdom", and his erratic views make me wonder if he is an alcoholic. But it may just be because he is, indeed, very stupid indeed, despite a certain political rat cunning. He is shallow, sexist, racist, plebeian (wealth can't confer class). He is the classic sow's ear that can never be a silk purse. And the porcine comparison is deliberate.
If I were tweeting, I would say: "Very bad. Very stupid. Worst president ever. Kurdish blood is on your hands." I'd add a reference to treachery, if I thought he would understand the word, but it has 3 syllables.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:24 am

PS, yes, I do feel better now. thanks.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:25 am

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:39 am
Sadly, we are long past the stage of 'marriage counseling' where reflection and healing might attend upon an amicable settlement of differences. The resolution of the coming conflict, if and when it occurs, is unlikely to be a no-fault separation, but instead much more like a nasty and recriminatory hellish divorce.

Here is the situation with the President as I see it unfolding before me. Regrettably, it is dire:

Domestically, Americans' basic liberties are being eroded by a solipsistic Executive who has governed by Twitter edicts that are largely independent of policy formation within his own Administration.

He has also repeatedly subjected American citizens to scurrilous verbal abuse both by name and as scapegoats in a group, just as he did again last Thursday nite in Minnesota in an off-script, race-baiting, bigoted fugue.

On the foreign front, this rogue Executive has connived with Vladimir Putin to alienate our allies and dismantle our alliances. Consequently, the fate of Europe and the Middle East now hangs in the balance.

The Constitution, in my view, must now be employed to dislodge the President from the office he originally obtained illegitimately with a significant boost from the Russians and which he has subsequently disgraced.

That won't be easy — it may even be impossible given that the President has stated that he regards such an effort as a coup d'etat, thereby implying that he can only be removed by force.

But a consensus for lawful removal is slowly beginning to form. Even the conservative Fox News outlet reports that a clear majority of registered GOP voters now favors considering impeachment coupled with removal as a remedy for unchecked Executive power.

The American ideal encompasses government by the people and their representatives. It does not countenance an elected despot who thinks he can rule by fiat.
Ah Joseph. Very well said. :D And the last sentence is the most important.

jserraglio
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:33 am

He said in Minnesota that impeachment was an act of sedition, an attempt, in his words not mine, "to overthrow the government of the United States". I.E., if he is ever removed, it will have to be by force of arms.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:47 am

Barney, I can see that you're angered by Trump. As I said earlier, he doesn't really rate on my radar so I never comment. And I don't really follow American politics much at all. However, I know enough to know that when you lose an important election self-reflection and analysis rather than grievance is absolutely crucial. A vibrant opposition is fundamental to democracy in all western countries.

Gladys Lui has to go!! But what it boils down to is, for me, unconditional multiculturalism and I think that we're seeing its limits - something many of us have been concerned about for years.
Last edited by Belle on Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

lennygoran
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:48 am

barney wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:19 am
I'd add a reference to treachery, if I thought he would understand the word, but it has 3 syllables.
Barney he doesn't understand treason either! Regards, Len :(

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:50 am

Belle wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:47 am
As I said earlier, he doesn't really rate on my radar
Belle are you ever lucky-sure rub it in! Regards, Len :lol:

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:57 am

I said earlier I don't really follow US politics but I do subscribe to "The Rubin Report" and these things are discussed and I watch interviews on U-Tube with public intellectuals, read books from time to time - but I have no skin in the political game. Sometimes that distance helps in making observations, like those I have made. My observations are not influenced by either anger or hatred. Life is too short for hatred. (It's even too short for my high-maintenance youngest sister!! :mrgreen:)

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:45 am

Belle wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:57 am
Life is too short for hatred.
On the contrary, life is too short for love.

Belle
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:15 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:45 am
Belle wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:57 am
Life is too short for hatred.
On the contrary, life is too short for love.
Hatred is about the most destructive force (next to cancer itself) on the planet. Avoid. But for some people, sadly, it's Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

barney
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by barney » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:28 pm

There are, of course, many people in the world as unpleasant as Trump, such as Putin or Columbian drug lords. And they have an effect on my world too. But nothing like the same extent. It is hard to watch helplessly as Trump undermines the assumptions, understandings and systems that have shaped my world for the better for the six decades I have been alive. And sees America desert the world stage to free it for dictators. This Kurdish betrayal after a phone call from another corrupt dictator, without any consultation and offending his own party, is another indication of a deeply inadequate mind. Seriously, based on his vocabulary, I doubt whether his IQ is even 80. Erdogan probably just told him he was the best president ever, and that was enough.


I don't hate Trump supporters, by the way. Most of them have their reasons, which often seem to be negative ones (opposition to his opponents rather than support for him), and I'd like to talk to more to understand it better.


Re multiculturalism, it was Theodore Dalrymple - the enormously entertaining right-wing commentator I usually read in the Spectator, but not only there - who said multiculturalism is not just lamb with couscous but also stoning adulterers. There has to be a middle path which involves both welcoming migrants and requiring them (helping them) to integrate to a certain extent, such as learning English.

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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by Belle » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:01 pm

I've been to a Dalrymple lecture at SOH and read his book "Life at the Bottom". He is/was a psychiatrist who worked with prisoners and their families in the UK. Also went to a lecture from Niall Ferguson, just before Trump was elected. At that lecture (March, 2016) he said 'people need to understand that Donald Trump will do exactly what he says he will do"!

It's so difficult to have any conversations with people outside one's own world view because it generally devolves into anger and resentment; and it seems free speech really is a thing of the past. I'm always appalled in public debates about free speech when I hear people arguing that we really shouldn't have uncensored speech, saying "what is it you want to say that you cannot now?". My answer to the TV is usually, "listen to the very question you just asked"!!!!!

It also reminds us of what our parents used to say, so very presciently; don't discuss religion, sex or politics in company because it has the potential to alienate or offend. I try to live by that myself. This breach of our etiquette occurred recently with my daughter-in-law on my husband's side. My spouse asked me to send them something on the internet via email, which I reluctantly did. She wrote back with the most bitter and acrimonious anti-Coalition comments (largely over franking credits) which really shocked me as this had not been the tenor of our relationship over its lifetime. I was annoyed with my spouse because this same couple had willingly turned up 14 months earlier at our third son's wedding when two of my own sisters refused because the (then) Treasurer Morrison was to be there!! (One didn't even bother to acknowledge the invitation!!)

I want to forgive and put aside differences (I won't forgive the ignored invitation any time soon!) because of the other positive things people contribute to our lives. I think 'the chap' has since learned his lesson: that his brother and himself come from two completely different world views and that it's better not to discuss it in the first place. The irony of my brother-in-law is that he was educated at Trinity Grammar, was Dux of the school (his wife at Meridan, Strathfield), their son (Trinity) and all daughters educated at the most prestigious private schools (PLC) yet they constantly play the 'big end of town' class warfare game. My ordinary kids from Catholic schools are all, mostly-quiet, conservatives who never complain about corporate Australia or business in general!!

jserraglio
Posts: 5846
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am

Belle wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:15 pm
jserraglio wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:45 am
Belle wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:57 am
Life is too short for hatred.
On the contrary, life is too short for love.
Hatred is about the most destructive force (next to cancer itself) on the planet. Avoid. But for some people, sadly, it's Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
You misread the post.
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

lennygoran
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Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by lennygoran » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:36 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am
(next to cancer itself)
There's a cancer in the White House-where's my John Dean! Regards, Len:x

jserraglio
Posts: 5846
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Vile betrayal by vile man

Post by jserraglio » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:46 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:36 am
jserraglio wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am
(next to cancer itself)
There's a cancer in the White House-where's my John Dean! Regards, Len:x
Hey Len, I didna write about cancer, only about LOVE.

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