We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Discuss whatever you want here ... movies, books, recipes, politics, beer, wine, TV ... everything except classical music.

Moderators: Lance, Corlyss_D

Post Reply
lennygoran
Posts: 15906
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by lennygoran » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:26 am

Trey Hollingsworth, I know John Kennedy of Louisiana and you're no John Kennedy of Louisiana-still you're sure trying to be. Regards, Len :(

GOP lawmaker: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'


Rep. Trey Hollingsworth (R-Ind.) said Tuesday, as the U.S. grapples with the coronavirus pandemic, that the country will always have to choose a “loss of American lives” over a “loss of our way of life as Americans.”

Hollingsworth told Indianapolis's WIBC radio station that there is no “zero-harm” option when it comes to deciding when and how to reopen the American economy.

“Both of these decisions will lead to harm for individuals, whether that's dramatic economic harm or whether that's the loss of life,” he said. “But it is always the American government's position to say, in the choice between the loss of our way of life as Americans and the loss of life of American lives, we have to always choose the latter.”

Hollingsworth said that the decision that would do the most good for the most people would be to “get Americans back to work.” The Indiana lawmaker added that no “amount of legislation out of D.C.” is going to fix the crisis.

“It is policymakers' decision to put on our big-boy and big-girl pants and say, ‘This is the lesser of these two evils,’” he said.

“That is our responsibility, and to abdicate that is to insult the Americans that voted us into office,” he added.

Political leaders in the U.S. are involved in an intense debate over whether the country should reopen its economy as outbreaks of the coronavirus persist in multiple states.

Experts worry that keeping the economy shut down could be even more damaging in the long term than the virus, while health officials say COVID-19 could resurge if the U.S. reopens now.

Reached for further comment by The Hill, Hollingsworth said, “It’s hyperbolic to say that the only choices before us are the two corner solutions: no economy or widespread casualties. We can use the best of biology and economics to enable as much of the economy to operate as possible while we work to minimize disease transmission.”

President Trump said Monday that he has the authority to decide whether to reopen businesses and schools in states where the governments shut them down. Several lawmakers and state leaders, including New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D), contradicted this, saying it goes against the Constitution.

Indiana has counted 8,527 positive cases and 387 deaths from the coronavirus, according to the state health department.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4928 ... our-way-of


Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:17 am

Stay too long at your fav bar, have too much, just trying to drive home,kill some one you did not intend to kill, probably get years in jail. Dont stay home,reopen, despite not knowing if you or customers infected or not,spread the virus, kill people, you're a "big-boy" . Sick.

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:58 am

Ultimately, he's right.

I'm not saying we should be immediately rushing back to past normality. But there is a limit to the amount of economic and cultural destruction we can endure if we're going to have anything left to eventually return to.

While we're obviously not literally in a war, there are similarities in terms of the level of threat they pose to our way of life.

The better Red than Dead crowd and those who felt we should look the other way during WWII also felt that literally anything was better than people dying. In fact, much of Europe took that message after WWI and the eventual result was WWII.

At some point, if the destruction to your way of life is bad enough, people who are not in high risk groups are going to have to be brave and go back to work.

I saw Emmanuel's brother recently advocate for remaining under the current full-blown restrictions until we have a vaccine, which may not be for a year-and-a-half. He's out of his mind.

In fact, I'm curious as to how long all of you think is acceptable for us to remain under the current restrictions? Is there a time limit? How about two years? What if at that two year mark, just as we fully stamp out coronavirus, a similar virus gets out there? What if it balloons to five years? Should the government just keep printing money for everyone for five years? And if five years is too long, at what point can people suggest we let people in low risk groups return to work and certain other activities without you making fun of them?
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:03 pm

Barry wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:58 am
And if five years is too long, at what point can people suggest we let people in low risk groups return to work and certain other activities without you making fun of them?
You do not have the right to get drunk, even if you think you are not, drive, and kill me. If you are a business owner or person living paycheck to paycheck, who doesn't even know whether he is sick or not, that does not give you the right to work and kill me,making fun of my concern.Being a "big boy" is deciding there is no acceptable avoidable loss under these circumstancesand instead spending all the World's treasure if required, even if the fight is ultimately lost, as if an errant meteor were certain of striking Earth.Or,deciding now how many should die this time, and die the next time there is a virus, and die the next time, and who gets to decide the numbers, so we can plan now and protect the low risk.

Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:19 am

What other countries have done with same info US had/has:

https://tinyurl.com/ydbj9auy

“ So maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that the United States isn’t reducing the spread of the virus as well as many other countries. We don’t seem to be trying as hard.” Leonhardt,NYT


Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:38 am

From David Leonhardt's NYT column today, and for those who think we can re-open for the low risk while just the high risk stay home:

Discussing the fact virus more deadly than flu : " A few basic calculations show how scary a 0.5 percent death rate is. If about one in three Americans ultimately get the virus — or 110 million people — more than 500,000 would die. If 200 million people get it, 1 million would die ..Dr.Ezekiel Emanuel of the University of Pennsylvania pointed out to me that about 20 percent of virus fatalities so far in the United States have been among people aged between 35 and 64. If the total number of deaths ends up in the ranges I’ve mentioned here, the virus could end up being the No. 1 killer of people in that age group, surpassing both cancer and heart disease."

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:23 am

Your irrelevant interpretation of my rights not aside, I see nobody is willing to say whether they think it would be alright for people to be locked in, even in parts of the country without a serious problem, for a year-and-a-half, as Emmanuel argued, or even longer.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:03 am

Barry wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:23 am
I see nobody is willing to say whether they think it would be alright for people to be locked in, even in parts of the country without a serious problem, for a year-and-a-half, as Emmanuel argued, or even longer.
People in my state that are "locked in" as you indelicately phrase it, i.e., prisoners and nursing home residents, are being hit hard by the virus.

There has to be a method for opening up. One approach is that of good leader Trump who would hurl a pile of snake-oil therapeutics (UV light, heat, Lysol, isopropyl alcohol, hydroxychloroquine, Roundup Weed & Grass Killer and doubtless, in the inner sanctum of his WH quarters, Tarot Card readings and Tantric chants) at the virus and say, "Let's see what happens!"

So let's see what happens in "parts of the country without a serious problem" wherever that might be, maybe you mean states like Georgia and S. Carolina. We'll probably know in a couple of weeks.

Let's also see what happens with a very different approach, like that of the state of Ohio, blessed with a responsible governor, which beginning Monday will be opening up in baby steps. Mike DeWine's approach is very much, 'let's open up in a controlled manner so that we do not have to retrace our steps or lose ground we have already gained'.
Last edited by jserraglio on Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:26 am

https://tinyurl.com/y7w3ocno Food supply issues coming to your store soon.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:35 am

Barry wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:23 am
Your irrelevant interpretation of my rights not aside, I see nobody is willing to say whether they think it would be alright for people to be locked in, even in parts of the country without a serious problem, for a year-and-a-half, as Emmanuel argued, or even longer.
You're hardly in a position to complain, Barry. You've evaded every direct question put to you.
No conversation is possible with you because you only post to snipe.

Marc
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Marc » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:21 pm

Barry wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:23 am
Your irrelevant interpretation of my rights not aside, I see nobody is willing to say whether they think it would be alright for people to be locked in, even in parts of the country without a serious problem, for a year-and-a-half, as Emmanuel argued, or even longer.
It's a sacrifice indeed.
Though not for all.
For those who will never give up "the American way of life", and do belong to the happy few, there is always a solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZct-itCwPE


jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:29 pm

Rach3 wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:00 pm
https://www.thenation.com/article/socie ... mmigrants/

The TrumpReich in action.
Thanks. Like smoking, living under the thumb of Trump has turned out to be hazardous to our health.

lennygoran
Posts: 15906
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by lennygoran » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:01 am

Rach3 wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:00 pm
https://www.thenation.com/article/socie ... mmigrants/

The TrumpReich in action.
So sad-has Susan Collins been told about this! Regards, Len :(

Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:24 am

https://tinyurl.com/ycptvryx Virus effect on municipal water supplies
ttps://tinyurl.com/y8xn7sl6 Food supply threat

These are obviously not just Iowa effects.

Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:23 pm

" I'm low-risk 30 ; what , me worry ?? " Whoops : https://tinyurl.com/yc8cj7x3

jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:52 pm

Thank you. The reverse side of the coin.

Re: atypical symptoms in the aged that can lead to failure to diagnose a coronavirus inflection.

<<COVID-19 is typically signaled by three symptoms: a fever, an insistent cough and shortness of breath. But older adults — the age group most at risk of severe complications or death from this condition ― may have none of these characteristics.

Instead, seniors may seem “off” — not acting like themselves ― early on after being infected by the coronavirus. They may sleep more than usual or stop eating. They may seem unusually apathetic or confused, losing orientation to their surroundings. They may become dizzy and fall. Sometimes, seniors stop speaking or simply collapse.

“With a lot of conditions, older adults don’t present in a typical way, and we’re seeing that with COVID-19 as well,” said Dr. Camille Vaughan, section chief of geriatrics and gerontology at Emory University.>>

— KAISER HEALTH NEWS

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:21 pm

barney wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:35 am
You're hardly in a position to complain, Barry. You've evaded every direct question put to you.
No conversation is possible with you because you only post to snipe.
I've learned over the years, Barney, that it's not a productive use of time to get involved in a long back-and-forth where I'm one arguing against several or many.

If I were to do that, I'd have little time for work.

Aside from that, you're also hardly in a position to complain about me taking pot-shots given that this board has evolved into little more than a forum for left wingers to belittle large portions of the population that have no representation on here. How many of you that do that are small-business owners that are worried about losing your business? How many of you have been laid off? I just think it's cheap to belittle people who are desperate. I also think it's cheap to go after Trump's voters instead of just Trump.

I'll tell you that I'm very careful. I work from home and observe all the protocols (and I think it was a mistake for some of the protesters to fail to do that, both for their own health and as far as detracting from their messaging). But I'm very aware that a lot of people don't have my luxury, and that as a country, we can't do this forever.

TheHill.com
The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation
By Dr. Scott W. Atlas, Opinion Contributor — 04/22/20 12:30 PM EDT

The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.

Five key facts are being ignored by those calling for continuing the near-total lockdown.

Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.

The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.

In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 11 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.

Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.

Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding.

We can learn about hospital utilization from data from New York City, the hotbed of COVID-19 with more than 34,600 hospitalizations to date. For those under 18 years of age, hospitalization from the virus is 0.01 percent or 11 per 100,000 people; for those 18 to 44 years old, hospitalization is 0.1 percent per 100,000. Even for people ages 65 to 74, only 1.7 percent were hospitalized. Of 4,103 confirmed COVID-19 patients with symptoms bad enough to seek medical care, Dr. Leora Horwitz of NYU Medical Center concluded "age is far and away the strongest risk factor for hospitalization." Even early WHO reports noted that 80 percent of all cases were mild, and more recent studies show a far more widespread rate of infection and lower rate of serious illness. Half of all people testing positive for infection have no symptoms at all. The vast majority of younger, otherwise healthy people do not need significant medical care if they catch this infection.

Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem.

We know from decades of medical science that infection itself allows people to generate an immune response — antibodies — so that the infection is controlled throughout the population by “herd immunity.” Indeed, that is the main purpose of widespread immunization in other viral diseases — to assist with population immunity. In this virus, we know that medical care is not even necessary for the vast majority of people who are infected. It is so mild that half of infected people are asymptomatic, shown in early data from the Diamond Princess ship, and then in Iceland and Italy. That has been falsely portrayed as a problem requiring mass isolation. In fact, infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.

Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.

Critical health care for millions of Americans is being ignored and people are dying to accommodate “potential” COVID-19 patients and for fear of spreading the disease. Most states and many hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery. That prevented diagnoses of life-threatening diseases, like cancer screening, biopsies of tumors now undiscovered and potentially deadly brain aneurysms. Treatments, including emergency care, for the most serious illnesses were also missed. Cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. An estimated 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Acute stroke and heart attack patients missed their only chances for treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability.

Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.

The overwhelming evidence all over the world consistently shows that a clearly defined group — older people and others with underlying conditions — is more likely to have a serious illness requiring hospitalization and more likely to die from COVID-19. Knowing that, it is a commonsense, achievable goal to target isolation policy to that group, including strictly monitoring those who interact with them. Nursing home residents, the highest risk, should be the most straightforward to systematically protect from infected people, given that they already live in confined places with highly restricted entry.

The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.

Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:39 pm

Barry wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:21 pm
The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation.
Far better than what states like Georgia are doing, but still an unwise strategy. A more gradual step-by-step approach backed up with testing, like that being implemented here in Ohio, would be more rational than just opening up most workplaces and small businesses to small groups vaguely deemed not vulnerable.

There is no evidence yet that effective antibodies develop in those infected with this virus, nor that if effective immunity does develop, how long it might last. Effective immunity to covid-19 being thus far an unproven assumption based on the behavior of other types of virus, it is far too early to move forward with opening up based on mainly on immunity generation. Coming out of hiding too soon risks a second, worse wave of infection.

Speaking of taking cheap shots, such as ...
How many of you have been laid off? I just think it's cheap to belittle people who are desperate. I also think it's cheap to go after Trump's voters instead of just Trump.
I know several folks, some in my family, who've been laid off or fired from their jobs. Citing just one example. Teachers, staff and workers at my school have already seen their employment terminated or hours severely cut. And come August, it is very possible that even more workers, most with small children, will have to be let go because of declining enrollment.

Furthermore, as I understand the rules of this forum, anyone (whether left wing, right wing, or wingless; whether laid off, working, or retired) is free to express their views without having to demonstrate that they represent anybody but themselves.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:28 pm

Barry wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:21 pm
barney wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:35 am
You're hardly in a position to complain, Barry. You've evaded every direct question put to you.
No conversation is possible with you because you only post to snipe.
I've learned over the years, Barney, that it's not a productive use of time to get involved in a long back-and-forth where I'm one arguing against several or many.

If I were to do that, I'd have little time for work.

Aside from that, you're also hardly in a position to complain about me taking pot-shots given that this board has evolved into little more than a forum for left wingers to belittle large portions of the population that have no representation on here. How many of you that do that are small-business owners that are worried about losing your business? How many of you have been laid off? I just think it's cheap to belittle people who are desperate. I also think it's cheap to go after Trump's voters instead of just Trump.
It's not the potshots I mind, Barry. I do a fair bit of that too. It's the evading of questions, and pointing in different directions that bothers me. When the conversation is about Trump, you talk instead about China, Democrats or Trump-haters. I think it's dishonest.
Second, my near total contempt for Trump does not make me a left-winger. As I have often said, I have huge problems with identity politics, the trademark of the left. I loathe Trump because I am an ordinary, decent human being with a moral compass and an ego that is not out of control. I would feel exactly the same way about Trump if he were a Democrat or a Calathumpian. As I posted on another thread just now, I believe that at least 20,000 Americans are now dead because that egotistical thug didn't care. Let millions die, so long as he gets re-elected.I notice a columnist pointed out that, while Pence or the medical people refer to the dead, Trump never does. Not even a cursory expression of regret. Because he doesn't care.
I don't know why you bring small business into it. I haven't seen anyone here criticising small business. And we are certainly not belittling desperate people. Further, like it or not, the whole world has an interest in what happens in the US. Soon, especially if Trump wins again, that may not be the case - you may become negligible in world affairs and we'll be looking to India or Europe to hold the line against China. But I have as much right to worry as anyone else.

Belle
Posts: 2453
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:45 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Belle » Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:23 pm

"....that this board has evolved into little more than a forum for left wingers to belittle large portions of the population that have no representation on here. How many of you that do that are small-business owners that are worried about losing your business? How many of you have been laid off? I just think it's cheap to belittle people who are desperate. I also think it's cheap to go after Trump's voters instead of just Trump."

Bravo, Barry. They're mostly good and decent people who just want a job. And you are absolutely right about big and small business and how these entrepreneurial types see the world so very differently - because they have their capital and backsides on the line!! Yesterday I watched a program on our Foxtel network called "The Alliance" about the strategic and economic partnership between the USA and Australia. It was made by an Oxford-educated woman Ticky Fullerton. She interviewed many people, especially Anthony Pratt who has brought huge investment in recycled paper into the USA. Many of the local townspeople were interviewed for the program, including restaurant and motel owners - who all said business was thriving because of the investment. Our second richest person in Australia, Anthony Pratt, owns that Visy paper mill and he said that his investment was only possible because of Donald Trump. And our PM was routinely eviscerated for being there with the President to open that mill. Our richest Australian female, Gina Rinehart, was on that program (which is only for domestic consumption, by the way). She talked about the importance of investment by the US in Australia and our investment there. Her pink-coloured trains at the Roy Hill mine were on display and I wondered whether the feminists would be praising this extraordinary woman or hating her because of her success. I wonder if I wonder? You see, hate is the operative word here.

You don't have to like or approve of the stream-of-consciousness ravings of Donald Trump to understand that he has enabled the growth of jobs; without this the USA cannot hope to maintain a cohesive society or pay off destructive and disabling sovereign debt. And if you think an enfeebled Democrat is capable of fixing all that then you really do believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.

jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Sun Apr 26, 2020 9:08 pm

Belle wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:23 pm
"....that this board has evolved into little more than a forum for left wingers to belittle large portions of the population that have no representation on here. How many of you that do that are small-business owners that are worried about losing your business? How many of you have been laid off? I just think it's cheap to belittle people who are desperate. I also think it's cheap to go after Trump's voters instead of just Trump."

Bravo, Barry. They're mostly good and decent people who just want a job. And you are absolutely right about big and small business and how these entrepreneurial types see the world so very differently - because they have their capital and backsides on the line!! Yesterday I watched a program on our Foxtel network called "The Alliance" about the strategic and economic partnership between the USA and Australia. It was made by an Oxford-educated woman Ticky Fullerton. She interviewed many people, especially Anthony Pratt who has brought huge investment in recycled paper into the USA. Many of the local townspeople were interviewed for the program, including restaurant and motel owners - who all said business was thriving because of the investment. Our second richest person in Australia, Anthony Pratt, owns that Visy paper mill and he said that his investment was only possible because of Donald Trump. And our PM was routinely eviscerated for being there with the President to open that mill. Our richest Australian female, Gina Rinehart, was on that program (which is only for domestic consumption, by the way). She talked about the importance of investment by the US in Australia and our investment there. Her pink-coloured trains at the Roy Hill mine were on display and I wondered whether the feminists would be praising this extraordinary woman or hating her because of her success. I wonder if I wonder? You see, hate is the operative word here.

You don't have to like or approve of the stream-of-consciousness ravings of Donald Trump to understand that he has enabled the growth of jobs; without this the USA cannot hope to maintain a cohesive society or pay off destructive and disabling sovereign debt. And if you think an enfeebled Democrat is capable of fixing all that then you really do believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.
And what is the federal gov't under GOP leadership doing to help all those mostly good and decent people who just want a job? Mr. Trump passes the buck to the states. Mr. McConnell tells the states to declare bankruptcy if they cannot find the resources to solve their own problems.

What is the White House plan for ramping up testing for the virus to the levels required (5-10 million per day) to allow most of the country to open safely? And what is its plan for initiating contact tracing off of that testing regimen? Answer: No such plan at that scale exists at the federal level. The federal response has been characterized by passivity and inaction.

So every time I hear adherents of the New Right wringing their hands over the plight of the working classes while extolling the virtues of the "second richest" and the "richest", I am reminded of the GOP's feeble-minded attempts to embrace the New Deal and how FDR with his legs locked into braces mocked their insincere concern for the ordinary worker. That "enfeebled" candidate went on to win all but three states that year.

Like it or lump it, the Republican National Committee's own internal polling shows that, as of today, the mostly good and decent folks who find themselves mostly unemployed as a result of Mr. Trump's failure to exert leadership are mostly unlikely to be voting Republican this year.

Bring on a leader who's "enfeebled". The world needs a respite from one that's feeble-minded.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:55 am

People like Sue and Barry like to call jserraglio, lenny and me "haters". But neither of them has ever addressed the fact that Trump is solely to blame for thousands of deaths in the US.Why don't they care about this? Or refute me, if I am wrong?

I repeat, Australia has had 80 deaths thanks to swift and intelligent responses by our government. The US is 12 times our size, and could therefore be expected to have 12 times our death rate, had President Trump reacted like a normal human being and not an egotistical monster. Ie, it should have had about 1000 deaths. The toll is now above 55,000! Read that again: 55,000!

It is desperately sad that ideological fervour and resentment should sweep aside a death toll 55 times what it needed to be, and render it irrelevant in comparison to the need to protect Trump. But Republicans are still lining up, at least in public, behind this monstrous imbecile who advocates injecting poison into oneself.
America is on the rack. I don't know if anyone has answers, but I do know that Trump doesn't even understand the questions. I really don't understand how anyone with integrity can defend him. It shows a contempt for human life.

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:08 am

barney wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:28 pm
It's not the potshots I mind, Barry. I do a fair bit of that too. It's the evading of questions, and pointing in different directions that bothers me. When the conversation is about Trump, you talk instead about China, Democrats or Trump-haters. I think it's dishonest.
Second, my near total contempt for Trump does not make me a left-winger. As I have often said, I have huge problems with identity politics, the trademark of the left. I loathe Trump because I am an ordinary, decent human being with a moral compass and an ego that is not out of control. I would feel exactly the same way about Trump if he were a Democrat or a Calathumpian. As I posted on another thread just now, I believe that at least 20,000 Americans are now dead because that egotistical thug didn't care. Let millions die, so long as he gets re-elected.I notice a columnist pointed out that, while Pence or the medical people refer to the dead, Trump never does. Not even a cursory expression of regret. Because he doesn't care.
I don't know why you bring small business into it. I haven't seen anyone here criticising small business. And we are certainly not belittling desperate people. Further, like it or not, the whole world has an interest in what happens in the US. Soon, especially if Trump wins again, that may not be the case - you may become negligible in world affairs and we'll be looking to India or Europe to hold the line against China. But I have as much right to worry as anyone else.
And I honestly think your hatred for Trump makes you unable to be objective about him. I don''t think an objective person would hold him personally and solely responsible for all of those deaths. I've told you why I think he acted as he did. But you see nothing but intentional and willful destruction on his part.

You rely on media sources that are clearly on a journalistic jihad against Trump and have no interest in giving the full picture with all of the necessary context. Unfortunately, we've reached a point where you need to consult both left wing and right wing media to get the full picture. They all just give you the news that supports their narrative and ignore or justify the news that doesn't.

I also, again, as I've said, take very unkindly to anyone throwing a figurative blanket over tens of millions of Trump voters and labeling them in the way that they often get labeled by Trump-haters.

I consider most of you beyond reasonable debate on anything Trump related. That doesn't mean I shouldn't occasionally point out why.

I deflect to China because THAT is the story. They INTENTIONALLY kept the news of the outbreak of the virus from the rest of the world. They went so far as to ban flights from Wuhan to the rest of China, but allowed them to other countries. If they had warned the world earlier, it would have been much easier and more likely for Trump to take stronger actions sooner.

What do you say to Nancy Pelosi discussing bringing a bill to the House Floor that would have stopped Trump from further restrictions because she felt his partial flight ban from China was outrageous at the time?
Last edited by Barry on Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:14 am

I see we crossed posts and your most recent one confirms my view.

You're out of your mind, frankly, to think the things you do about the situation (although it's understandable if your main source of American news is what you see on here).

You see the way Americans are acting now out of impatience at not being able to earn a living.

What do you think would have happened if they were locked up when there were only a handful of known cases in the U.S.?

People keep comparing the U.S. to other countries, like Australia, Germany and South Korea. There are huge cultural and political differences that give such comparisons very little validity.


And by the way, you failed the Scott Adams IQ test with regard to Trump and his injection comment: https://www.scottadamssays.com/2020/04/ ... s-failing/ (it starts about a minute into the video)

No objective and thinking person actually thinks he meant what you say he meant.

You're simply incapable of rational thought when it comes to Trump.

I'm sure you were right on top of those death projections when they topped a million. So who gets credit for the fact that it now appears they won't even be 10 percent of that? You can say it would have been better if he had done it sooner. I'm telling you that in this country, that's much easier said than done. And you're not in a position to refute me on that.

If you want to know how different our two countries are, just look at the fact that your government was able to successfully get Australians to give or sell back their guns to the government. Good luck with that one here.

As I've said, I don't rate Trump as doing a great job since the crisis started, but he's nowhere near the disaster you obviously think he is.
Last edited by Barry on Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:23 am

Thanks for presenting another side, Belle.
Belle wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:23 pm
"....that this board has evolved into little more than a forum for left wingers to belittle large portions of the population that have no representation on here. How many of you that do that are small-business owners that are worried about losing your business? How many of you have been laid off? I just think it's cheap to belittle people who are desperate. I also think it's cheap to go after Trump's voters instead of just Trump."

Bravo, Barry. They're mostly good and decent people who just want a job. And you are absolutely right about big and small business and how these entrepreneurial types see the world so very differently - because they have their capital and backsides on the line!! Yesterday I watched a program on our Foxtel network called "The Alliance" about the strategic and economic partnership between the USA and Australia. It was made by an Oxford-educated woman Ticky Fullerton. She interviewed many people, especially Anthony Pratt who has brought huge investment in recycled paper into the USA. Many of the local townspeople were interviewed for the program, including restaurant and motel owners - who all said business was thriving because of the investment. Our second richest person in Australia, Anthony Pratt, owns that Visy paper mill and he said that his investment was only possible because of Donald Trump. And our PM was routinely eviscerated for being there with the President to open that mill. Our richest Australian female, Gina Rinehart, was on that program (which is only for domestic consumption, by the way). She talked about the importance of investment by the US in Australia and our investment there. Her pink-coloured trains at the Roy Hill mine were on display and I wondered whether the feminists would be praising this extraordinary woman or hating her because of her success. I wonder if I wonder? You see, hate is the operative word here.

You don't have to like or approve of the stream-of-consciousness ravings of Donald Trump to understand that he has enabled the growth of jobs; without this the USA cannot hope to maintain a cohesive society or pay off destructive and disabling sovereign debt. And if you think an enfeebled Democrat is capable of fixing all that then you really do believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ricordanza
Posts: 1948
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:58 am
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Ricordanza » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:11 pm

Barry wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:14 am
And by the way, you failed the Scott Adams IQ test with regard to Trump and his injection comment: https://www.scottadamssays.com/2020/04/ ... s-failing/ (it starts about a minute into the video)
No objective and thinking person actually thinks he meant what you say he meant.
I've listened to Trump's comment/question several times, and there is no getting around the fact that he connected the concept of disinfectant with the concept of injection. It wasn't just the "liberal" media that heard it this way. The manufacturer of Lysol felt it necessary to issue a public statement that their product should never be ingested or otherwise introduced to the human body. And thousands of people called poison control "hotlines" to ask about this statement from out president.

Scott Adams suggests that Trump was "unclear." That's an understatement if there ever was one. But if Trump meant something else, he had a duty to correct that misinterpretation. Of course, he didn't and won't do this.

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:14 pm

It's been addressed ad nauseum, including by Dr. Birx.

Let it go, Henry. I told people who were going out of their minds when Trump invited the Russians to hack Hillary's emails that their reaction was helping Trump's chances of winning the last election. It should only take a second of thought to realize the reality. Not even Trump would seriously tell people to do that.

The people, especially journalists, who treat his obviously unserious or nonsensical statemetns seriously play into his hands and make themselves look worse than him.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:23 pm

Barry wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:14 pm
journalists, who treat his obviously unserious or nonsensical statemetns seriously play into his hands and make themselves look worse than him.
One such journalist, Bret Baier of Fox News took that unserious or nonsensical bleach blunder seriously. Clearly that had to be a transparent ploy on Baier's part to prop up Trump's poll numbers which have been dismal lately.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:41 pm

Barry wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:08 am
barney wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:28 pm
It's not the potshots I mind, Barry. I do a fair bit of that too. It's the evading of questions, and pointing in different directions that bothers me. When the conversation is about Trump, you talk instead about China, Democrats or Trump-haters. I think it's dishonest.
Second, my near total contempt for Trump does not make me a left-winger. As I have often said, I have huge problems with identity politics, the trademark of the left. I loathe Trump because I am an ordinary, decent human being with a moral compass and an ego that is not out of control. I would feel exactly the same way about Trump if he were a Democrat or a Calathumpian. As I posted on another thread just now, I believe that at least 20,000 Americans are now dead because that egotistical thug didn't care. Let millions die, so long as he gets re-elected.I notice a columnist pointed out that, while Pence or the medical people refer to the dead, Trump never does. Not even a cursory expression of regret. Because he doesn't care.
I don't know why you bring small business into it. I haven't seen anyone here criticising small business. And we are certainly not belittling desperate people. Further, like it or not, the whole world has an interest in what happens in the US. Soon, especially if Trump wins again, that may not be the case - you may become negligible in world affairs and we'll be looking to India or Europe to hold the line against China. But I have as much right to worry as anyone else.
And I honestly think your hatred for Trump makes you unable to be objective about him. I don''t think an objective person would hold him personally and solely responsible for all of those deaths. I've told you why I think he acted as he did. But you see nothing but intentional and willful destruction on his part.

You rely on media sources that are clearly on a journalistic jihad against Trump and have no interest in giving the full picture with all of the necessary context. Unfortunately, we've reached a point where you need to consult both left wing and right wing media to get the full picture. They all just give you the news that supports their narrative and ignore or justify the news that doesn't.

I also, again, as I've said, take very unkindly to anyone throwing a figurative blanket over tens of millions of Trump voters and labeling them in the way that they often get labeled by Trump-haters.

I consider most of you beyond reasonable debate on anything Trump related. That doesn't mean I shouldn't occasionally point out why.

I deflect to China because THAT is the story. They INTENTIONALLY kept the news of the outbreak of the virus from the rest of the world. They went so far as to ban flights from Wuhan to the rest of China, but allowed them to other countries. If they had warned the world earlier, it would have been much easier and more likely for Trump to take stronger actions sooner.

What do you say to Nancy Pelosi discussing bringing a bill to the House Floor that would have stopped Trump from further restrictions because she felt his partial flight ban from China was outrageous at the time?
Barry, you replied to me in two posts, so I'll take them one at a time. Not much to say to this one except this. I don't see wilful and intentional destruction on Trump's part, as you allege. You are wrong. That would almost be better. What I do see is culpable selfishness and stupidity in examining the problem only from his own perceived self interest about the election. He has absolutely no moral compass and nor, so far as I can see, do most of his supporters. As I alleged previously, they seem to be fuelled mostly by rage and resentment. Had he acted earlier and according to advice there is no doubt many thousands would still be alive. Solely responsible? Perhaps not. But chiefly responsible? Certainly. Just look at his reaction when someone else gets a little of the limelight. Was it Truman who had the sign on his desk "the buck stops here"? The buck never, ever, ever stops with the current contemptible shell of a man who occupies the White House.


What do I say about Pelosi? Had she achieved such a bill then she too would have been greatly culpable. She was just - as Australians say, and perhaps Americans too - playing politics. As I have said before, my disgust at Trump is because he is disgusting; it is not party political.


We are in furious agreement about the culpability of China. They have been utterly reprehensible throughout, including now when they are trying to bully the EU and Australia to ignore all that. The EU apparently caved, and removed references to Chinese disinformation from their report. China has this week threatened trade reprisals against Australia for seeking an impartial investigation - extremely heavy-handed. As Fairfax political editor Peter Hartcher wrote, we should be grateful to the Chinese ambassador for removing the polite mask and revealing the gangster underneath.
But both parties in Australia are standing up to China, and I have written to my MP applauding that. The whole rest of the world needs to wake up to China, if it is not already too late. I don't see the US as up for the challenge - I think Trump will crumple like tissue paper if standing up becomes unpopular. As I have posted before, I think the best prospect is an alliance between India, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia and Australia, plus possibly Vietnam, which will take time to develop. But the more the naked Chinese aggression and ambition are revealed, as is increasingly happening, the more impetus such an alliance will get. The US under Trump would not be welcome because who would trust him? He betrays allies at the drop of a hat. The Kurds. NATO (whom he called the enemy, while praising Russia). Reagan must be turning in his grave.

Well look at that! It turned out I had a bit to say after all.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:53 pm

Belle wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:23 pm
"....that this board has evolved into little more than a forum for left wingers to belittle large portions of the population that have no representation on here.

A very lazy generalisation. Why don't you instead address the arguments? Not everyone who disagrees with you is a left winger. If a Pennsylvania miner, for example, wants to come on this forum, I for one will listen to his or her views with real interest. It's not my fault if they choose not to post on CMG.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:06 am

Barry wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:14 am
I see we crossed posts and your most recent one confirms my view.

You're out of your mind, frankly, to think the things you do about the situation (although it's understandable if your main source of American news is what you see on here).

You see the way Americans are acting now out of impatience at not being able to earn a living.

What do you think would have happened if they were locked up when there were only a handful of known cases in the U.S.?

People keep comparing the U.S. to other countries, like Australia, Germany and South Korea. There are huge cultural and political differences that give such comparisons very little validity.


And by the way, you failed the Scott Adams IQ test with regard to Trump and his injection comment: https://www.scottadamssays.com/2020/04/ ... s-failing/ (it starts about a minute into the video)

No objective and thinking person actually thinks he meant what you say he meant.

You're simply incapable of rational thought when it comes to Trump.

I'm sure you were right on top of those death projections when they topped a million. So who gets credit for the fact that it now appears they won't even be 10 percent of that? You can say it would have been better if he had done it sooner. I'm telling you that in this country, that's much easier said than done. And you're not in a position to refute me on that.

If you want to know how different our two countries are, just look at the fact that your government was able to successfully get Australians to give or sell back their guns to the government. Good luck with that one here.

As I've said, I don't rate Trump as doing a great job since the crisis started, but he's nowhere near the disaster you obviously think he is.
Thanks Barry for being forthright and honest. I don't mind the gloves being off; I think we are getting somewhere.

I wonder whether it's better to have no intellect or no morals. But I'm afraid I can't accept your analysis that I'm out of my mind. I'm a fully functioning, rational human being who has followed with enormous attention what is unfolding in the US.

I simply can't believe you are being honest when you say Trump didn't mean it about the bleach. Either you are extraordinarily stupid or extraordinarily deceptive. He said it without a hint of irony. He wasn't being sarcastic. He was musing aloud, as he does, on his usual basis of total ignorance and irresponsibility. An idea occurred and flew out his mouth without engaging his brain, such as it is. He had not attended the pre-briefing briefing with the medical staff, as we are told he seldom does, because the only opinion that interests him is his own.

The fact that deaths have not reached a million cannot be credited to Trump. It took a colossal effort to dissuade him from reopening everything by Easter. Then you'd have had your million.

You imply Americans - unlike Australians or Germans - are incapable of behaving lawfully or acting out of public interest; they have to act like toddlers having a tantrum. So they'll take to the street with guns. I know this is not true of most, and most have tried to act responsibly throughout the crisis. I do not minimise the economic catastrophe, which has happened in Australia and Germany too; I understand why people are upset. But only a cretin would encourage them to defy their state governments and take to the streets. Unfortunately, the US has just such a cretin in charge.

And that is a thoroughly rational and objective judgment, based on evidence. Or so I say.

jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:07 am

Barry wrote:You're out of your mind, frankly, to think the things you do about the situation (although it's understandable if your main source of American news is what you see on here).
What one sees most often on here as sources of American news just happen to be three of the most reliable newspapers in the world: the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal.

lennygoran
Posts: 15906
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by lennygoran » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:00 am

barney wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:55 am
People like Sue and Barry like to call jserraglio, lenny and me "haters". But neither of them has ever addressed the fact that Trump is solely to blame for thousands of deaths in the US.Why don't they care about this? Or refute me, if I am wrong?
Barney no refutation from me-he didn't cause corona but afaiac it's just another coverup because he was thinking hoax and keep the economy going--his constant lying, his cheating, his bone spurs-he's disgusting and that is what I hate him for. Regards, Len :x

lennygoran
Posts: 15906
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by lennygoran » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:06 am

Ricordanza wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:11 pm
Barry wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 9:14 am
I've listened to Trump's comment/question several times, and there is no getting around the fact that he connected the concept of disinfectant with the concept of injection. It wasn't just the "liberal" media that heard it this way.
Hank I listen to CNN alot-I've heard and seen the clips many many times-he was off the wall-he said it, he lied about it, he was definitely not taken out of context as his press secretary claimed and he definitely was not being sarcastic. Regards, Len
Last edited by lennygoran on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:07 am

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:07 am
Barry wrote:You're out of your mind, frankly, to think the things you do about the situation (although it's understandable if your main source of American news is what you see on here).
What one sees most often on here as sources of American news just happen to be three of the most reliable newspapers in the world: the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal.
That is very true. I don't say any of those 3 is infallible, but it's a heck of a lot different from Fox, which makes no pretence at uncovering the truth. I watch Fox at times, but make sure I have a vomit-bucket handy. Those three newspapers are extraordinarily careful about how they handle information, which is even more challenging in the 24-hours news cycle with the intense pressure to be first. Credibility is hard won and easily lost, but Fox never had any, as even Republicans know exactly what Fox is up to. Culture wars, not truth.

jserraglio
Posts: 6292
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by jserraglio » Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:30 am

barney wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:07 am
it's a heck of a lot different from Fox, which makes no pretence at uncovering the truth. I watch Fox at times, but make sure I have a vomit-bucket handy.
I watch Fox a LOT for three reasons:

1. I enjoy irritating my wife, she loathes Fox News. Talk about left wingers! If I am a left winger, I reckon that makes her a socialist/communist, Molotov-cocktail-flinging radical.

2. I find Fox highly entertaining, and I have never watched (never as a child was allowed to) any creative "shows" on the 3 mainstream networks. My Fox faves are "Five", "Hannity", and hands down, numero uno "Tucker". They are all exemplary popular entertainments, which I am sure is one reason why they draw so many viewers. Tucker's facial expressions alone are well worth the price of admission.

3. I like to understand where the allergic-to-argument right-wingers on CMG get their marching orders. The ongoing "When At First You Cannot Refute, Blame China Again" trend on CMG would be a good example of that: Fox is running a similar series.

I would criticize FOX, though, for running way too many commercials, and commercials largely designed to reach the geriatric crowd that mostly make up their viewing audience.

lennygoran
Posts: 15906
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by lennygoran » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:24 am

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:30 am

I would criticize FOX, though, for running way too many commercials, and commercials largely designed to reach the geriatric crowd that mostly make up their viewing audience.
CNN same thing and also MSNBC-I tape alot of their shows on the DVR-then I use the fast forwar on the remote-it can save you hours! Regards, Len :lol:

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:06 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:30 am
barney wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:07 am
it's a heck of a lot different from Fox, which makes no pretence at uncovering the truth. I watch Fox at times, but make sure I have a vomit-bucket handy.
I watch Fox a LOT for three reasons:

1. I enjoy irritating my wife, she loathes Fox News. Talk about left wingers! If I am a left winger, I reckon that makes her a socialist/communist, Molotov-cocktail-flinging radical.

2. I find Fox highly entertaining, and I have never watched (never as a child was allowed to) any creative "shows" on the 3 mainstream networks. My Fox faves are "Five", "Hannity", and hands down, numero uno "Tucker". They are all exemplary popular entertainments, which I am sure is one reason why they draw so many viewers. Tucker's facial expressions alone are well worth the price of admission.

3. I like to understand where the allergic-to-argument right-wingers on CMG get their marching orders. The ongoing "When At First You Cannot Refute, Blame China Again" trend on CMG would be a good example of that: Fox is running a similar series.

I would criticize FOX, though, for running way too many commercials, and commercials largely designed to reach the geriatric crowd that mostly make up their viewing audience.
:D Good reasons, to be sure. But your blood pressure must be in excellent shape.

lennygoran
Posts: 15906
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by lennygoran » Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:00 am

barney wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:06 pm
:D Good reasons, to be sure. But your blood pressure must be in excellent shape.
Talk about medical conditions how about these 2 doctors FOX was promoting. Regards, Len :(

Though Widely Discredited, Bakersfield Doctors' COVID-19 Test Conclusions Spread Like Wildfire


https://www.kqed.org/news/11814749/bake ... e-wildfire

Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:01 am

From Harvard Professor Tribe today:

" We have 57,000 of the world’s 213,000 deaths: around 27%. But we’re under 4% of the world’s population. That’s a ratio of ~ 7:1. So Trump’s roughly 7 times as inept as the average world leader. What else do those entrusting their lives to this narcissistic moron need to know?"

lennygoran
Posts: 15906
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by lennygoran » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:22 am

Rach3 wrote:
Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:01 am
From Harvard Professor Tribe today:

" We have 57,000 of the world’s 213,000 deaths: around 27%. But we’re under 4% of the world’s population. That’s a ratio of ~ 7:1. So Trump’s roughly 7 times as inept as the average world leader. What else do those entrusting their lives to this narcissistic moron need to know?"
For me the tax returns-let's see if they reveal more than just being inept. And those early briefings in Jan and Feb-what did Trump know and when did he know it. And if he knew it why did he hide it-a valuable 3 or 4 weeks lost-was he inept or lyin-remember the hoax. Regards, Len

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Fri May 01, 2020 10:18 am

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/04/u ... ormal.html

UPMC doctor argues COVID-19 not as deadly as feared, says its hospitals will shift back to normal
Apr 30, 2020; Posted Apr 30, 2020


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/ ... 09675.html

Is It Time to Start Paying Attention to the Lockdown Critics?
Joe Nocera, Bloomberg April 30, 2020
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Fri May 01, 2020 12:58 pm

Barry wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 10:18 am
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2020/04/u ... ormal.html

UPMC doctor argues COVID-19 not as deadly as feared, says its hospitals will shift back to normal
Apr 30, 2020; Posted Apr 30, 2020


https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/ ... 09675.html

Is It Time to Start Paying Attention to the Lockdown Critics?
Joe Nocera, Bloomberg April 30, 2020
That Nocera article certainly raises relevant points. I don't know the answers. In Australia some states are cautiously starting to emerge from lockdown. My state, Victoria, is the most rigid, and is not going to change anything before May 11. The delay is to get vastly more testing done.
There's no question that we haven't come close to the worst case scenarios, thank God. Does that mean we were wrong to prepare for them? I don't think so. Of course most people on this board, like me, are over 60 and have a lot of skin in the game.

Barry
Posts: 10344
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Barry » Fri May 01, 2020 7:48 pm

There have been a few other highly credentialed medical people, including someone from Stanford, who have come out recently in opposition to wide spread shut-downs of the economy and people's ability to carry on their lives.

They don't say the virus is a non-issue. But they claim that there is now enough evidence to know that the virus is generally not serious for people who are not in high risk groups. They would have us safeguard the elderly and those with pre-existing health issues that put them at high risk should they get the virus, while letting everyone else generally go about their business, with more precautions than were observed in the pre-virus days.

One of my closest friends is a doctor (general family practice) in Pittsburgh, where one of the articles I posted is from. He's been telling me for a while that the Pittsburgh region has not been hit hard and he didn't think they should be under the same level of restrictions that people in harder-hit areas - like mine - are facing. And that is the approach that Pennsylvania's governor is taking. He is allowing the counties that have been least-impacted to open first and will progressively go from there. The Philadelphia area will probably be the last part of the state to be opened up.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Rach3
Posts: 2013
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by Rach3 » Sat May 02, 2020 12:58 pm

1776: "Give me liberty or give me death." 2020: " Give me liberty and give me spread." 1776 : " I regret that I have but one life to give for my Country." 2020: " I regret that you have but one life to give for my liberty." ReOpen Patriotism.

barney
Posts: 4186
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:12 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: We must choose 'loss of American lives' over 'loss of our way of life as Americans'

Post by barney » Sat May 02, 2020 6:00 pm

Pow! That's pretty tough, Rach3! Alas, I am sure that in many cases it is justified.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests