Anyone here like hip-hop and Jazz too?

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jbuck919
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:20 am

I found "Uncle Junior" particularly reminiscent of the six-voice ricercar from the Musical Offering.

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Post by MaestroDJS » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:23 am

One of Leonard Bernstein's more underrated concertante work is Prelude, Fugue and Riffs for clarinet and jazz band. The central fugue for big band is astounding because it sounds both thoroughly composed and improvisational; the sprit of Bach invades a jazz jam session.

See also: http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/view ... 5344#85344

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Post by C.B. » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:16 pm

Jazz, yes--hip-hop and rap NO!

Does anybody here remember Audio Magazine's definition of rap, when it first reared its ugly head in the '80s? -

"Rap consists of test tones with a voice-over"

To that I would add: rap is the ultimate non-music, the antithesis of all that's good and beautiful in music.
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Post by Huckleberry » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:30 pm

Jazz, yes. Rap, I have heard of, and would rather not hear much of.

What is hip-hop? A extremely brief account of its history and characteristics will do.
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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:42 pm

hip-hop is allegedly a form of rap that's more..."musical" and can have the vocals that aren't as high speed as rap. That said...I've only heard of ONE hip hop artist who does this...

gotta be impressed by a rapper that puts flute riffs on a loop in a song as opposed to a drum machine 4/4 beat. :wink:

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Post by Huckleberry » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:03 pm

Thanks for the q&d education on the topic.

I think that the threadmaster, who planted something here and then vanished, is SPAMMING this board.

Question for the experienced posters here: How does an ordinary citizen report spam to the moderator[s]?
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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:45 pm

From what I've seen the mods come here daily for the most part...or at least once every one or two days, so it won't be that long before they notice it.

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Post by Auntie Lynn » Sat Sep 03, 2005 5:04 pm

I trained a high profile daughter in ballet for years and years and $$ and $$. She is now a fab hip hopper - runs Kultur Shock, Funkanometry and dances with City Slam...travels the world, teaches and really hits the boards...

Quite simply the best...!!

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Post by Dalibor » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:55 pm

I don't like jazz neither hip-hop. Only classical and electronic music.

But it seems that synthesizer music is the last thing that can be discussed on this board, even hip-hop is discussed more relaxed.

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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:45 pm

Nice pot shot there.

It's not the discussion of electronic music that's the problem. It's when you say that classical music should be turned into electronic music that the problem arises...

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Post by MaestroDJS » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:40 pm

Dalibor wrote:But it seems that synthesizer music is the last thing that can be discussed on this board, even hip-hop is discussed more relaxed.
No worries mate, I like synthesizer music too. The real problem is that many of us dare to have opinions which differ from yours. Different opinions, after all, are what makes this forum so interesting. Unfortunately a few participants state their opinions as facts, and tolerate no opposition. If we all thought exactly the same, it would sure be a boring place, and we'd never learn anything.

Vive la différence!

Dave

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verdi26

Post by verdi26 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:45 pm

Love Jazz...

Liked Rap back in the days when it was avant garde... Before it became popular and, thus, became property for corporations to decide the sound.

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Post by Gregg Deering » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:28 pm

Hip hop, at one point (the early 80’s) had a chance to be music, as an adjunct to rap. Since there was, or is, little future in “just music” it was quickly subsumed back into rap and the whole commercial phenomenon.

I can not tell you (anyone) how tiresome it is to have african american 20-somethings (who know nothing about blues or jazz) tell me that rap is the real music of the people - like blues and jazz.

But then I have the same problem with my 40-something wife who likes to tell me how important pop music is...

The biggest problem I have with pop/rap is that it’s so pretentious. In our dumbed down society, for some odd reason pop music has to be considered transgressive and socially/artistically important- when in fact it just mass entertainment or, really just fills in for background music.

That’s enouught for now.


Gregg

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Post by Gary » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:39 pm

Jazz, yes. As for the other...never been "hip" and too heavy to hop. :D
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Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:12 am

Jazz yes Hip Hop - qualified yes (there is a cultural component that this middle aged white boy cannot really relate to). There is some very creative work done by people like Dr. Dre. I prefer to access hip hop and funk in general through Jazz players like Herbie Hancock (dis is da Drum was a great hip hop fusion album made about ten years ago)

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Post by DavidRoss » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:34 am

Jazz, yes. I don't buy many recordings, but usually attend a few performances each year. The best of them make my face hurt from grinning so much. Heard one of my faves, McCoy Tyner, last night, but in a concert hall, which is just not the same as hearing him--or any jazz artist--in a club. (Better than nothing, I suppose, but it's really the wrong context. Like watching a baseball game on TV.) Loved his solo work, as usual, didn't care for his side men this time--more into demonstrating their chops than into exploring the music's structure.

I'm not very familiar with hip-hop. I've little contact with pop culture these days. Like verdi26, I used to enjoy the roots of rap long ago. Do you rmember The Last Poets, John?
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Jonno

Post by Jonno » Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:14 pm

Gregg Deering wrote:The biggest problem I have with pop/rap is that it’s so pretentious. In our dumbed down society, for some odd reason pop music has to be considered transgressive and socially/artistically important- when in fact it just mass entertainment or, really just fills in for background music.
Well, thanks for informing me why I listen to pop music, there was me thinking it was giving me some sort of spiritual high, but really I was just being "entertained"!

Or maybe, as someone who doesn't like pop music, you can only guess why others do. To be fair, you're probably right 99% of the time, it is largely disposable, especially these days. But the best of it is inspired, worthwhile art which communicates at a very direct, visceral level. Sure it lacks the technical articulacy of classical music, but is that always what art's about? Writing a great melody requires pure inspiration, whatever your level of technical skill - and pop music has produced many of them. Is 'God Only Knows' really just entertainment and background music? It doesn't feel like it to me.

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Post by Gregg Deering » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:02 pm

Hi Jonno,

Well, I appreciate your even thinking about what I wrote.

Personally I’ve never had a spiritual high from pop, although I’ve been high on spirits and had great times. I’m happy with pop catharsis, I have a tough time with applying inherently spiritual to much of anything - especially pop. I don’t under rate the catharsis - it’s the best property of contemporary music. Unfortunately having the great experience has to be justified and made important because we all want to feel that what has value to us must therefore be important. I just never felt the need to justify my experience in some traditional overly educated way. There are plenty of pop/rock/funk/punk (well really new-wave, but it’s cooler to say punk) stuff I’ve liked and some I still like. Hey rock and roll hall a' fame and all that, but where is the progress, it just slowly regurgitates and shifts scenes.

It’s like if some one tried to tell me that sex is a beautiful and ennobling act of love between two people and should express their deep commitment to each other...... Errr, OK, but I really have to go see my squeeze.....

When people talk about the importance of pop music they are generally talking about song. The music is only incidental (somehow). But people are rarely willing to talk about lyric content, they just wave Bob Dylan in front of you and the discussion is supposed to be over. Pop takes itself too seriously - like a hallmark card, one shouldn’t insult the level of sentimentality (i.e. TRUTH). Pop lyrics are the same, easy platitudes about the obvious that are are some how sacrosanct. Earthy and spiritual at the same time, usually given by some charismatically cool person so they can be distant and direct at the same time.

Now after several decades of the thought, I can’t let the “music can change the world” crap pass with out a little complaining either. Hands across america. This only serves the huge music industry.

Back ground music, well, watch how most people consume their music.

Anyway, another day another rant.


Gregg

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Post by Von Helsing » Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:24 pm

Gregg Deering wrote: I can not tell you (anyone) how tiresome it is to have african american 20-somethings (who know nothing about blues or jazz) tell me that rap is the real music of the people
Given its current popularity amongst a huge section of the population, surely that makes it real music of the people?

Jonno

Post by Jonno » Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:02 pm

Gregg Deering wrote:Hi Jonno,

Well, I appreciate your even thinking about what I wrote.

Personally I’ve never had a spiritual high from pop, although I’ve been high on spirits and had great times. I’m happy with pop catharsis, I have a tough time with applying inherently spiritual to much of anything - especially pop. I don’t under rate the catharsis - it’s the best property of contemporary music. Unfortunately having the great experience has to be justified and made important because we all want to feel that what has value to us must therefore be important. I just never felt the need to justify my experience in some traditional overly educated way. There are plenty of pop/rock/funk/punk (well really new-wave, but it’s cooler to say punk) stuff I’ve liked and some I still like. Hey rock and roll hall a' fame and all that, but where is the progress, it just slowly regurgitates and shifts scenes.

It’s like if some one tried to tell me that sex is a beautiful and ennobling act of love between two people and should express their deep commitment to each other...... Errr, OK, but I really have to go see my squeeze.....

When people talk about the importance of pop music they are generally talking about song. The music is only incidental (somehow). But people are rarely willing to talk about lyric content, they just wave Bob Dylan in front of you and the discussion is supposed to be over. Pop takes itself too seriously - like a hallmark card, one shouldn’t insult the level of sentimentality (i.e. TRUTH). Pop lyrics are the same, easy platitudes about the obvious that are are some how sacrosanct. Earthy and spiritual at the same time, usually given by some charismatically cool person so they can be distant and direct at the same time.

Now after several decades of the thought, I can’t let the “music can change the world” crap pass with out a little complaining either. Hands across america. This only serves the huge music industry.

Back ground music, well, watch how most people consume their music.

Anyway, another day another rant.


Gregg
Perhaps 'catharsis' is a better description of my reaction to pop music - or any music - than 'spiritual high', but either way, I don't see how I can judge art by anything other than how it makes me feel. Social significance? Does art have any? Technical accomplishment? Then why is my passion music and not science? Of course I could ask others how they feel, which may be far more important, but the difficulty is that everyone will speak in terms relative to their own depth of experience. I can only guess, not prove, than someone who 'likes' Elton John is less deeply moved than someone who 'likes' Brahms.

I personally don't pay much attention to song lyrics, or have have an appreciation of poetry, but I'm sure pop lyrics make very bad poems. I think this has only been a problem, though, since pop lost its innocence and became self-conscious, ironic and pretentious (it wasn't always). You mentioned dumbing-down, but I think the best pop is dumb by necessity - it's only when it becomes, or tries to be, too knowing it falls flat on its face. 'Surfer Girl' by The Beach Boys has the dumbest lyrics imaginable, but as a whole the record is, for me anyway, an incredibly pure and beautiful expression. It carries through an innocence which Neil Diamond songs, for example, totally lack.

Pop's greatest asset, and its downfall, is its accessiblility to the masses. This means it can be written and performed by individuals with little passion for making music, and consumed by a public with little passion for listening (of course, when classical music is made accessible, it too is treated as background music - see Classic FM). But none of this is to say that pop composers cannot be as inspired as those in the classical field. Burt Bacharach is a more prolific melodist than many of them. I agree that progress in pop has ground to a halt, but surely 60s pop represents the most rapidly changing decade in music history, thanks to the freshness of the medium, and the rapid turnover and distribution of the output. I would suggest that, during its lifetime, pop has remained both more inspired and less pretentious than contemporory "serious" music.


Anyway, I seem to have hi-jacked the thread. Um.. well, I'm a relative newcomer to jazz, hip-hop I think is for the most part extremely bad music. So I'll shut up. Thanks for listening!

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Post by Gregg Deering » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:31 pm

Hi Jonno,

Very good post. I agree with most of it. On the subject of Social significance, rock is full of it (as one might hope from the blues/folk roots). Some one is waving Dylan in my face again. But after decades of rock's agenda (one I probably share if we exclude Ted Nugent), it's clear in that in the US the message only lasts until the party's over.

Anyway we did change the tone of the thread, but such is life.


Gregg

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