The greatest underrated works

rogch
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The greatest underrated works

Post by rogch » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:13 pm

Recently we had an interesting debate about underrated composers. I would like a simular debate about underrated works. It can be both individual works or a group of works (for example Mendelsohn's organ works). I have a few suggestions to start with:

-Telemann's water music, much more exciting than Händel's if you ask me.
-Haydn's piano trios
-Among Mozart's works: The bassoon concerto, symphony no. 30 and piano concerto no. 11.
-Mendelsohn's string quartets. Wonderfull works, not surprising really. Mendelsohn got much of his basic musical training when he wrote for string orchestras.
-Some of Satie's orchestral music. I quickly lost interest in his famous piano works, but some of his orchestral works are very entertaining.
-Claude Debussy's songs
-Aaron Copland's piano concerto

I am sure i have forgotten many works and many of you will have other good examples. There is enough to choose from.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

jbuck919
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Re: The greatest underrated works

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:39 pm

rogch wrote:Recently we had an interesting debate about underrated composers. I would like a simular debate about underrated works. It can be both individual works or a group of works (for example Mendelsohn's organ works). I have a few suggestions to start with:

-Telemann's water music, much more exciting than Händel's if you ask me.
-Haydn's piano trios
-Among Mozart's works: The bassoon concerto, symphony no. 30 and piano concerto no. 11.
-Mendelsohn's string quartets. Wonderfull works, not surprising really. Mendelsohn got much of his basic musical training when he wrote for string orchestras.
-Some of Satie's orchestral music. I quickly lost interest in his famous piano works, but some of his orchestral works are very entertaining.
-Claude Debussy's songs
-Aaron Copland's piano concerto

I am sure i have forgotten many works and many of you will have other good examples. There is enough to choose from.
I can comment on a couple of those.

First, I would like to make the semantics clear. There is a difference between neglected and underrated. I suspect you have more in mind the former, because I don't know anyone who thinks that Haydn's later piano trios are underrated. They are clearly masterpieces on a par with the greatest chamber music of the classical period. And I have noticed that they are being programmed more and more often. I heard a performance of one in of all places a Methodist Church in Saratoga Springs, New York. It was world class (they also performed one of the Brahms trios). The key problem with the Haydn trios as far as frequent performance is concerned is, of course, that the cello only doubles the bass of the piano. Some things cannot be helped.

Of course, music can be underrated precisely because it is neglected.

The other case that I am somewhat familiar with is the art songs of Debussy, and yes, what a miracle they are, as is indeed all of Debussy, in my opinion the greatest composer after Brahms. (A case can be made that he is the last composer to have found it possible to write great music for solo piano.) As far as the art song goes, he had a rival in Schoenberg, but something like the Trois Ballades de Charles d'Orleans is so astonishing that, like you, I wonder that we never hear it.
Last edited by jbuck919 on Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Huckleberry » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:32 pm

Some of us admire Mahler, Bruckner, and even Zemlinsky. But Rott died very young. His Symphony #1 speaks of all of the potential he had.

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Post by 12tone » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:34 pm

Maybe it's just me but I don't think the radio plays enough of JS Bach's family's music (CPE Bach and the rest). I wouldn't mind hearing more of their symphonies and such.

Would you say that JS's kids' music get overlooked far too often?

I heard one of their symphonies on the radio (forget which son) and it was really great.

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Post by MaestroDJS » Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:37 pm

Prelude, Fugue and Riffs for clarinet and jazz band by Leonard Bernstein. The central fugue for big band is astounding because it sounds both thoroughly composed and improvisational; the sprit of Bach invades a jazz jam session.

Serenade and Konzertstück, both for violin and orchestra, by Max Bruch are late works which date from 1901 and 1911 respectively. Serenade (in 4 movements) is lyrical and delightful throughout. Konzertstück is in 2 movements: a fiery and energetic Allegro in F-Sharp Minor which eventually melts into a radiant and lyrical Adagio in G-Flat Major. Other delightful Bruch works are his Concerto in E Minor for Clarinet and Viola, and Concerto for 2 Pianos and Orchestra, from 1911 and 1915 respectively. Double concerti are relatively rare, and the interplay and melodic invention of these works are striking.

Violin Concerto in C-Sharp Minor by Paul Hindemith is surely one of the finest but most underrated violin concerti of the 20th Century. The recurring cantilena violin melody over a hushed orchestra in the first movement is unforgettable, all the more so in contrast to the virility and intellectual objectivity of the rest of the work. By turns jaunty and lyrical, puckish and romantic, uproarious and serene, this concerto bowled me over the first time I heard it and it's lost none of its appeal. It really is that good. David Oistrakh recorded it in September 1962 with the London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Hindemith himself in a performance which ranks among the finest violin concerto recordings ever made.

Charles Martin Loeffler wins my vote as one of the most underrated composers. His tone poems La Mort de Tintagiles and A Pagan Poem are sumptuous and rich, and his chamber works such as the 2 Rhapsodies for Oboe, Viola and Piano are lovely. Loeffler was a cultivated man with a diverse background and diverse interests, and he brought these interests together in his music with great skill. His works emphasize color, exotic harmonies, atmosphere and innovative instrumentation. He was basically an Impressionist and a tone poet. His most famous work A Pagan Poem is scored for large orchestra with obbligato parts for piano, English horn and 3 trumpets, and paints a picture of love and magic with haunting beauty. Memories of My Childhood is a delightful work which includes 4 harmonicas.

Dave

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rogch
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Post by rogch » Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:58 am

12tone wrote:Would you say that JS's kids' music get overlooked far too often?
I heard one of their symphonies on the radio (forget which son) and it was really great.
The Bach sons are often mentioned among underrated composers. It seems like "everybody" agrees that they are underrated so perhaps they are not so underrated after all? But i would definitely like to hear more of their music.

Carl Philipp Emanuel was probably the most interesting of them. Not only was JS Bach his father, Telemann was his godfather. CPE was more famous than JS for many years. His compositions are very original and full of surprises. The depth of his music generally can't match that of his father's ( but who can?) and you won't feel the same wish to have every single work in your record collection. But a very interesting composer.

I have heard less of the music by the other Bach sons, but many people are fond of their music too. I have heard very few bad works composed by a Bach.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:59 pm

The entire Classical period "suffers" from the fact that three super-geniuses completely eclipse anything else we might be inclined to appreciate, even more than Bach eclipses Vivaldi. We might never have had Mozart, Haydn, or Beethoven, in which case we would either be listening to more C.P.E. Bach or not listening to classical music at all because it never rose to levels worth our attention at the distance of centuries.

Ralph has just brought up another neglected composer of that period, whom he postures to find inferior to his beloved Dittersdorf (I still don't know if that's a running joke or Ralph's actual opnion). I have not heard this music but I imagine it is perfectly pleasant. It might even be a good choice for a break from the heavy stuff, as has been suggested to me, for instance, by Corlyss.
Last edited by jbuck919 on Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by val » Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:41 am

There are so many underrated masterpieces that it is only possible possible to mention a few, according to our personal orientation.

I would like to call the attention to these four masterpieces:

- Enesco's opera "Oedipe", one of the greatest operas of the XX century.
- Enesco's Chamber Symphony, a masterpiece that, in my opinion, is not inferior to Bartok's "Music for strings ...".
- Frank Martin, "Der Cornet", an extraordinary cycle of Lieder (poems of Rilke).
- Schoeck's Lieder, in special the cycle "Unter Sternen".

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Post by MartinPh » Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:30 am

Josef Suk, the Asrael Symphony; as great as anything by Mahler

I second the vote for Rilke's Cornet: incredibly intense, heart rending music.

Enescu's 3rd orchestral suite, "Villageoise", which has possibly the most beautiful opening I know of any piece of music.

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Post by Haydnseek » Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:49 am

Schubert's "Grand Duo" Sonata D 812. It's one of his very finest works but since it was written for four-hand piano it doesn't get heard much, it seems.
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Today I chose:

Post by PJME » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:42 am

I'm happy to see Frank Martin's name! His Polyptique for violin & strings is an extremely beautiful work. The 3 Chansons de Noel (soprano, with piano & flute) ....
André Jolivet: celloconcerto nr 1 ( André Navarra & French Nat Orch/composer).mysterious, strange , moving.
Gordon Crosse: this Scottish composer stopped composing ....I was told. In 1966 he wrote "Changes" - a Britten-like songcycle/choral symphony (with soprano & baritone soli).It was once available on Argo.....The last section (soprano, chorus & orchestra - text by Blake) is of unsurpassed beauty.

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Post by johnshade » Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:32 pm

By all historical accounts Richard Strauss was a devoted, faithful husband and father. Many believe that Strauss's composition of a tone poem inspired by his domestic life is egotistical and beyond the pale. Perhaps this is why Symphonia Domestica has not been as widely accepted as his other orchestral works.

Symphonia Domestica is filled with beautiful, inspired music. I adore it musically and the "program" of the work is irrelevant to me. Yes, this is an underrated great work. Any agreement here?

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Post by Richard » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:06 pm

rogch wrote:
12tone wrote:

I have heard less of the music by the other Bach sons, but many people are fond of their music too. I have heard very few bad works composed by a Bach.
My favorite of the Bach sons is Johann Christian Bach. I especially like his "Sinfonias Op. 18". It makes a good antidote for a difficult and stressful day.

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Underrated works

Post by RebLem » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:47 pm

Biber's Rosary Sonatas
Handel's Dixit Dominus
Mozart's Piano Concerto #17
Mozart's two Duos for Violin and Viola
Schumann's Das Paradies und die Peri
Dvorak's 18 Cypresses for string quartet
Stenhammar's 6 string quartets
Parry's Third Symphony
Elgar's Dream of Gerontius
Joplin's Treemonisha
Prokofiev's First Piano Concerto
Britten's string quartets
Schoenberg's Cello Concerto
Crumb's Black Angels
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Post by Charles » Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:45 am

Bruch's three symphonies

Bach's Musical Offering, which is hardly ever mentioned. One of his greatest works, IMHO more consistently communicative of deep and rarified emotion than the Art of Fugue (which it predates by a year or two).

The Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings of the young Louis Armstrong. Though granted iconic status in jazz, they are all too rarely actually listened to. A stupendous creative achievement and an unending wellspring of musical joy.

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Post by pizza » Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:47 am

Wm. Schuman's 5th String Quartet.

Ives' Second Orchestral Set. The 3rd Movement: "From Hanover Square North at the End of a Tragic Day, the Voice of the People Again Arose" is one of the most powerful and emotional pieces of music ever written.

Ives' song: "General Wm. Booth Enters Into Heaven".

Balakirev's Piano Sonata in B-flat minor is his major work in this genre and a tour de force of invention and ideas, but is rarely played.

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Post by Haydnseek » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:05 am

The string quartets of Vincent D'Indy.
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PJME
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Gordon Crosse "Changes"

Post by PJME » Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:19 am

here is some information on this composer...I'm glad to read that he still composes.... "Changes" is high on my wantlist of re-issues!

Gordon Crosse was born in 1937 in Bury, Lancashire. In 1961 he gained a first class honors degree at Oxford, after which he did two years' research on early fifteenth-century music, part of 1962 being spent studying with Petrassi in Rome. Since 1964 he has held various appointments at the Universities of Birmingham and Essex, and was for two years Composer-in-Residence at King's College, Cambridge. In 1976, the year in which he won the Cobbett medal, he returned to his home in Suffolk to devote all his time to composition, but in 1977 spent one year as visiting professor in composition at the University of California.

Much of Crosse's work reflects his interest in the dramatic and literary arts. This is evident not only in his four operas (of which 'The Story of Vasco' was premièred at the London Coliseum, and 'Purgatory' recorded by Argo), but also in many of the concert works. Examples are 'Memories of Morning: Night,' for mezzo-soprano and orchestra, based on Jean Rhys' novel 'Wide Sargasso Sea;' 'World Within,' for actress, soprano and ten players, with a text taken from the writings of Emily Brontë, and 'Play Ground' for orchestra. Indeed, 'Play Ground' was later to be used for Kenneth MacMillan's successful ballet of the same name, first performed by Sadlers Wells Royal Ballet at the Edinburgh Festival in 1979. This collaboration between composer and choreographer continued in 1981 with 'The Wild Boy,' a ballet by MacMillan to Crosse's original concertante for clarinet and eight players by the same name, written in 1978. In 1984 he was approached by the choreographer David Bintley, who asked him to extend Britten's eight minute work 'Young Apollo' into a piece of suitable length for a ballet. This was first performed in November of that year in the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden.

Notable concert works, including 'Ceremony', 'Epiphany Variations,' 'Play Ground,' 'Dreamsongs,'' Symphony No.2,' the 'Cello Concerto,' and the 'Second Violin Concerto,' have been written to commission for international orchestras and festivals, including the BBC Symphony Orchestra, the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, the Hallé Orchestra, the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, the London Symphony Orchestra, the Cheltenham Festival, the Aldeburgh Festival, and the Edinburgh Festival. In 1990 'Sea Psalms' was premièred by the Scottish National Chorus and Orchestra in Glasgow. A CD of the 'Cello Concerto,' 'Memories of Morning: Night' and 'Some Marches on a Ground' was released on NMC in 1999.

Since the late eighties, Gordon Crosse has moved increasingly towards involvement with computer technology and away from composition. However, for the 1996 Spitalfields Festival, he arranged his 'Verses in Memoriam David Munrow' for tenor and ensemble.

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Post by 12tone » Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:21 pm

Not many people here say much about Khachaturian. Overlooked?

I've heard one of his violin concertos...forget what though. It was a NAXOS disc.

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Post by rogch » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:50 am

pizza wrote:Balakirev's Piano Sonata in B-flat minor is his major work in this genre and a tour de force of invention and ideas, but is rarely played.
I would definitely like to hear that one. There is so much great Russian music both from the 19th and 20eth ceturies that it perhaps inevitable that some of it is overlooked.

12tone wrote:
Not many people here say much about Khachaturian. Overlooked?
I've heard one of his violin concertos...forget what though. It was a NAXOS disc.
Khachaturian is probably most famous for his ballet suites and we can't say they are underrated. Some will perhaps say they are overrated. But his violin concerto (he only has one i think) is another story, a great work. I plan to buy it with a young violinist also named Khachaturian, i don't know whether they are related or not. It is coupled with the Sibelius violin concerto which is also said to be brilliantly played.

Yesterday i heard a work i have never heard about before and it was nothing less that sensational: Ancient voices of children by George Crumb. It is perhaps a question of definiton whether this work is neglected or underrated, but it surely should be in everybody's record collection.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:11 am

Khachaturian is probably most famous for his ballet suites and we can't say they are underrated. Some will perhaps say they are overrated. But his violin concerto (he only has one i think) is another story, a great work.
There is something about violin concertos, isn't there, and I absolutely have no explanation for it. Composer after composer was a mediocrity in everything else except his violin concerto (I mean Elgar, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Saint-Saens, and seemingly many others). I am of course exaggerating, since those composers all wrote at least one other work that might not belong in the dustbin, but you get my point. If I believed in angels, there surely must be one who comes down and touches every composer who sets out to write a violin concerto.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by pizza » Sun Nov 06, 2005 8:27 am

rogch wrote:
pizza wrote:Balakirev's Piano Sonata in B-flat minor is his major work in this genre and a tour de force of invention and ideas, but is rarely played.
I would definitely like to hear that one. There is so much great Russian music both from the 19th and 20eth ceturies that it perhaps inevitable that some of it is overlooked.
Brilliant Classics recently released a 6 CD set of Balakirev's complete piano music played by Alexander Paley. It's an excellent set at a bargain price.

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Post by Huckleberry » Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:38 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Khachaturian is probably most famous for his ballet suites and we can't say they are underrated. Some will perhaps say they are overrated. But his violin concerto (he only has one i think) is another story, a great work.
There is something about violin concertos, isn't there, and I absolutely have no explanation for it. Composer after composer was a mediocrity in everything else except his violin concerto (I mean Elgar, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Saint-Saens, and seemingly many others). I am of course exaggerating, since those composers all wrote at least one other work that might not belong in the dustbin, but you get my point. If I believed in angels, there surely must be one who comes down and touches every composer who sets out to write a violin concerto.
I agree that violin concertos are special.

But be NICE, jbuck :wink:. Saint-Saens, well I could live with that. (But his cello concerto has power.) But the other three in your list of short-on-talent/genius composers?!!

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Post by rogch » Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:46 am

jbuck919 wrote:There is something about violin concertos, isn't there, and I absolutely have no explanation for it. Composer after composer was a mediocrity in everything else except his violin concerto (I mean Elgar, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius, Saint-Saens, and seemingly many others). I am of course exaggerating, since those composers all wrote at least one other work that might not belong in the dustbin, but you get my point. If I believed in angels, there surely must be one who comes down and touches every composer who sets out to write a violin concerto.
Yes, even lousy composers like Bach and Mozart wrote some decent violin concertos :lol:
Tchaikovsky is not one of my favourite composers, but i would not call him mediocre. Saint-Sains? I could live without his music i believe. I don't know too much about Elgar, but his violin concerto definitely belongs on the list of underrated works. But Sibelius mediocre? In my opinion he is one of the greatest and most original orchestrators ever. Pure magic.

But i agree that the violin concertos are among the greatest works of many composers. Even Glazunov's violin concerto is often coupled with Mendelsohn, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky or Bruch (another "violin concerto one hit wonder" :wink: ). Did even Glazunov write a brilliant violin concerto?
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

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Post by Jack Kelso » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:13 am

Well, thanks to Mr. Buck's reminding me of the Elgar symphonies, I must add that they are very under-played (at least here in Germany), but his 'Cello Concerto, "Enigma Variations", "Cockaigne Overture" are performed occasionally.

Both symphonies are undisputed masterpieces; they are, however, rather difficult and complex works---perhaps not to the taste of fans of Debussy!

More original and expressive (and to me satisfying) than the slick and popular Sibelius symphonies are those wonderful six of Nielsen, who is arguably more often played here than the former. The situation might be different in Anglo-Saxon countries. At any rate, more recordings of Nielsen's orchestral works in general would be welcomed!

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by oisfetz » Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:22 pm

SQ by russians (except Shosta) are almost unknown and very seldom recorded or plaided live. Such as:
Alaviev
Glinka
Glazunov
Rimsky Korsakov
Borodin first
Miaskovsky
Sergey and Alexander Taneyev
Tchaikl.2d-and 3d-
Shebalin
Vainberg
Prokofieff
Rachmaninoff
:shock: :shock: :shock:

PJME
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Charles Koechlin - new CD

Post by PJME » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:56 am

This thread offers once again an amazing hotch potch of names....Yesterday I bought a new Hanssler CD ( 2 Cd's for 16 €) with -mainly- vocal/orchestral music by Charles Koechlin. Juliane Banse is the soloist, the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra is conducted by Heinz Holliger. A recent documentary(shot during the recording sessions) on "Arte" clearly demonstrated Holliger's involvement with this extraordinary composer. Two earlier albums showed Koechlin as a supreme master of the orchestra: La course du printemps and Le buisson ardent, Le docteur Fabricius and Vers la voute étoilée. These are all big and ambitious works , scored for large orchestra (sometimes including saxophones, organ, piano and/or ondes Martenot).
The new double CD sheds an interesting light on his early years and the songs belong without exeception in the best,most elegant and refined french tradition. Juliane Banse has a lovely voice and sings well, of course, but I found it all a bit monochrome and lacking in clarity ....Even so, the discs are beautifully recorded and the orchestral works ( mainly short symphonic poems , "Etudes antiques" ) are pure magic. The last and longest work (ca 21 mins.) on this collection is an impressive and moving Chant funèbre à la mémoire des jeunes femmes défuntes op. 37 for orchestra with organ and chorus. This is"unusual" ,highly original music for its time (ca 1900) franco-german in style, possibly..., the subtle, shifting harmonies and unexpected instrumental combinations are very personal...
It is time now for the 2 symphonies and the Symphonie d'Hymnes....
Koechlin is not an easy composer and his long works require attention and patience, but there is real beauty to be found.....
Here are the details:
CD 1

Quatre Poèmes d'Edmond Haraucourt op. 7
I. Clair de lune
II. Pleine Eau
III. Dame du ciel
IV. Aux temps des fées

Deux Poèmes symphoniques op. 43
II. Vers la Plage lointaine (Nocturne)

Poèmes d'Automne op. 13
I. Déclin d'amour (Sully Prudhomme)
II. Les Rêves morts (Leconte de Lisle)

Deux Poèmes d'André Chénier op. 23
I. La Jeune Tarentine

Gabriel Fauré : Chanson de Mélisande
Orchestration : Charles Koechlin

CD 2

Trois Mélodies op. 17
II. La Prière du mort (José-Maria de Heredia)
III. Épiphanie (Leconte de Lisle)

Études antiques op. 46
II. Soir au bord du lac
III. Le Cortège d'Amphitrite
IV. Épitaphe d'une jeune femme

Six Mélodies sur des poésies d'Albert Samain op. 31
I. Le Sommeil de Canope

Chant funèbre à la mémoire des jeunes femmes défuntes op. 37

Juliane Banse, Soprano
SWR Vokalensemble Stuttgart
Orchestre Radio-Symphonique de la SWR-Stuttgart
Heinz Holliger, Direction

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Post by GK » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:24 pm

Albeniz--Piano Con.
Schumann--Violin Con.
Bruch--Violin Con.#2
Dvorak--Piano Con.
Verdi--MacBeth
Gershwin--Concerto in F
Tchaikovsky--Francesca Da Rimini

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Post by Jack Kelso » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:00 am

Yes, GK! The Schumann Violin Concerto! But---ironically, here in Germany it is NOT (or no longer) underrated. There have been a number of recordings in the past few years. As my girl-friend says, "I've never heard such a powerful expression of sorrow and disillusionment..." as in that first movement. Many musicologists are calling it a true masterpiece.

But, alas! Other Schumann works could use stronger revival:

The complete "Manfred" music, op. 115
The Trio No. 1 in D Minor, op. 63 (P. Spitta said it "goes higher and farther than the Quintet"). I agree.
Both oratorios: "Der Rose Pilgerfahrt" (in both orchestral and piano versions); "Das Paradies und die Peri"
Szenen aus Goethes "Faust"
Late chamber works such as "Märchenerzählungen" for piano, clarinet and viola----astounding inspiration!
The "Konzertstück für 4 Hörner und Orchester", op. 86 (There's a piano version of this, too---but the original is a blockbuster!) Now considered to be the most important work for brass and orchestra since Haydn's E-flat Trumpet Concerto.
There are even many neglected songs and piano works.....

Many here have listed unknown or little-known composers, who I agree also should be promoted. But when truly major works of one of the greatest of composers are neglected, it's time to roll up one's sleeves and get them performed/recorded. And it's happening.....finally!

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by Huckleberry » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:29 am

Today I heard Zemlinsky's Die Seejungfrau (the young woman of the sea, i.e., The Little Mermaid) performed (appropriately) by the Danish Radio National Symphony Orchestra. A whimsical work that is full of longing.

It is perfect for a misty day in early January while on one's way to a funeral.

Marina (and not Die Seejungfrau :) )

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Post by Corlyss_D » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:39 am

jbuck919 wrote:I am of course exaggerating, since those composers all wrote at least one other work that might not belong in the dustbin
John, I'm going to get together a posse of concerned CMG-ers and come over to Germany to confiscate your batch of Bach. It's warping your world view.
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Post by david johnson » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:32 am

here's another vote for rott's sym 1. i like it whether it's great of not.

dj

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Post by DavidRoss » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:15 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:I am of course exaggerating, since those composers all wrote at least one other work that might not belong in the dustbin
John, I'm going to get together a posse of concerned CMG-ers and come over to Germany to confiscate your batch of Bach. It's warping your world view.
John is absolutely correct. Twenty or fifty or a hundred qualify as "at least one," right? :wink:
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

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Post by DanielFullard » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:23 pm

Beethovens Choral Fantasy

Alwyns Symphony 2, 5 and Harp Concerto

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Post by Jugglerbob » Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:19 pm

I'd like to add Arensky's Fantasia on Russian Folksongs to the neglected pile. At under ten minutes, it must not give the soloist enough show-off time to be performed in the U.S.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:09 pm

I'd like to put in a plug for Scriabin's Piano Concerto. Apparently recordings are so rare that there is only one I could find, on BRI, by Nikolai Demidenko (a wonderful recording too).
Corlyss
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Post by Gustaw_PL » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:55 pm

Dobry wieczór,

Hm... for me it would be:

from Beethoven - as someone here wrote: Choral Fantasy, besides: cello sonatas (especially two op. 102) and of course torrific songs, like Busslied, An die ferne Geliebte...

from others' pieces: Schumann's Cello Concerto in A minor (much better than His Piano Concerto, in my opinion), Debussy's Piano Trio in G, Polish operas by Moniuszko...

Pozdrawiam
GJJ
<b>"Man, help yourself"</b> - Beethoven

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Post by Jack Kelso » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:17 am

Gustaw_PL wrote:...Schumann's Cello Concerto in A minor (much better than His Piano Concerto, in my opinion), Debussy's Piano Trio in G, Polish operas by Moniuszko...

Pozdrawiam
GJJ
I love Schumann's 'Cello Concerto, too....but it certainly doesn't merit the term "underrated" here in Germany. It probably even beats the Dvorâk in popularity (not to mention the Lalo, Saint-Saens or Elgar).

Prefering it to the Piano Concerto is difficult to grasp (unless piano concerti are not your milieu).

I agree with you on the Debussy---unfortunately, I only know the overtures to Monieuszko's operas. They are very enjoyable.

Truly underrated Schumann: the great choral/dramatic works, the overtures and most of the chamber music except for the Piano Quintet.

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by Gustaw_PL » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:27 am

I love Schumann's 'Cello Concerto, too....but it certainly doesn't merit the term "underrated" here in Germany.
Gee, quite different from the situation in Poland, I mean: I know many classical music lovers and almost each of them knows the Piano Concerto, while none even heard about the Cello. Maybe they just don't like cello :)
Prefering it to the Piano Concerto is difficult to grasp (unless piano concerti are not your milieu).
To be sincere, I don't like the Schumann's Piano Concerto. However, I quite enjoy the Grieg's, which was written with clear reference to Schumann. I also like piano concertos very much, as it is my favourite genre of concertos: especially these Beethoven's, Rachmaninow's, even Chopin's (:))...
But another concerto I don't like is Czajkowski's B flat minor(let it be: Tschaikovsky's, but this spelling makes me mad ;)).
I agree with you on the Debussy---unfortunately, I only know the overtures to Monieuszko's operas. They are very enjoyable.
Not so long time ago "Straszny Dwór" was released by EMI, under Kaspszyk and Warsaw's Teatr Wielki (the Grand Theatre), so it's very easy to get on the West, in contrary to the past. Kaspszyk prefers quick tempi, so for older Poles his version is weird, comparing to the - slightly better in my opinion - version of Jan Krenz.

Pozdrawiam,
Gustaw
<b>"Man, help yourself"</b> - Beethoven

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Post by Wanderer » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:48 am

Medtner's piano sonatas and concertos, sets of Skazki (Tales), sets of variations (aka Improvisations), chamber music, the songs and, last but not least, the Sonate-Vocalise.

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Post by Jack Kelso » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:24 am

Amazingly, it just occurred to me how seldom (if at all!) the following Handel oratorios are performed:

"Judas Maccabaeus"
"Solomon"
"Belshazzar"
"Saul"
"Israel in Egypt"
"Alexander Balus"
"Samson" .....and many others.

They are generally on the same high plane of inspiration as the famous "Messiah", but different. They aren't written in the narrative style. I have all these works complete...and can vouch for their superb workmanship, drama and incredible beauty.

Also, the English secular operas "Semele" and "Acis and Galatea" deserve to be included in the active (baroque) repertoire.

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

rogch
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Post by rogch » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:20 am

Jack Kelso wrote:Amazingly, it just occurred to me how seldom (if at all!) the following Handel oratorios are performed:

"Judas Maccabaeus"
"Solomon"
"Belshazzar"
"Saul"
"Israel in Egypt"
"Alexander Balus"
"Samson" .....and many others.
Parts of the oratorios are quite frequently played, but perhaps not the complete oratatorios. I have discovered some of Händel's chamber music lately and found it very enjoyable. Not least the recorder sonatas. Perhaps we can call them underrated since we often remember Händel as a composer of "bigger" music.

Another baroque composer, Buxtehude, has plenty of underrated works. Try his Membra Jesu Nostri. Other interesting works i have heard lately are sonata for solo cello by Zoltan Kodaly and the weird, but wonderfull "songs of innocence and experience" by William Bolcom.
Roger Christensen

"Mozart is the most inaccessible of the great masters"
Artur Schnabel

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Post by Jack Kelso » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:48 am

Thanks, Roger for mentioning Händel's (German spelling) chamber works.

My girlfriend is in LOVE with the 12 Concerti Grossi, op. 6!

Yes, Händel is one of my five all-time favorite masters (with J. S. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Schumann---chron. order).

Tschüß,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by Lilith » Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:47 pm

Bruch - 2nd Symphony
Barber - Symphony #1
Copland Piano Sonata
Chamber Music of St. Saens, Faure, and the American Arthur Foote
Rachmaninoff Cello Sonata
Chopin Cello Sonata

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Post by oisfetz » Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:59 am

Chopin's piano trio
Grieg and Smetana SQ No.2
Borodin SQ No.1
Dvorak the major part of his chamber works and first cello concerto
Reger chamber works
Hidemith chamber works
Frank piano trios
Lalo SQ, violin sonata, v.c. and "russian" v.c.
Rachmaninoff SQ,first piano trio and pieces for cello and piano
Gounod violin concertos
Arensky,Taneyev,Alaviev,Kabalevsky,Vainberg,Stenhammar chamber works
and.....to infinite

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Post by Jack Kelso » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:47 am

Gustaw_PL wrote:To be sincere, I don't like the Schumann's Piano Concerto.
Pozdrawiam,
Gustaw
It would be very interesting to know what it is that "turns you off" to this universally loved and esteemed masterwork. It's sort of like saying, "I love symphonies---but I can't stand Brahms' Fourth!"

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by karlhenning » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:28 am

I don't think there's really any such thing as "universally loved" music, do you? In this imperfect world, I mean.
Karl Henning, PhD
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Post by Jack Kelso » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:46 am

karlhenning wrote:I don't think there's really any such thing as "universally loved" music, do you? In this imperfect world, I mean.
By universally-loved works I mean those accepted by any respected musicologist as an undisputed masterpiece.

Personally, if I don't enjoy a particular work I am able to explain the "whys" and "whats". And if I'm not able---then I'll devote more time to the work until I can. I think that's a part of intelligent and discriminating listening. We don't all love "just everything" in order to appear tolerant (well, some folks claim they do).

Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by karlhenning » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:35 pm

Jack Kelso wrote:
karlhenning wrote:I don't think there's really any such thing as "universally loved" music, do you? In this imperfect world, I mean.
By universally-loved works I mean those accepted by any respected musicologist as an undisputed masterpiece.
I still think your praise of the Schumann piano concerto a little too round, here, comparable to an implicit claim that the two Liszt concerti (much as I like them) are "accepted by any respected musicologist as undisputed masterpieces."
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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Post by RebLem » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:06 pm

I recommend you get a 2 CD set, EMI 5 74324 2, devoted to the pianism of Samson Francois. It includes magnificent performances of the Schumann concerto, the two Liszt concerti, the Prokofiev Concerti 3 and 5 and the Prokofiev Piano Sonata #7. Paul Kletzki is the conductor in the Schumann, Constantin Silvestri in the Liszt pieces, and Rowicki in the Prokofiev concerti.

This set may well change your mind if you don't like the Schumann.
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