Bruckner

scottweber

Bruckner

Post by scottweber » Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:35 pm

Hey all...just recently have gotten into Bruckner's symphonies and was wondering if you have a particular version of the 8th you could recommend. I just got the Barenboim/BPO version on Teldec and love it....so have been leaning to the same series' 8th...any other suggestons?

Thanks!

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:10 pm

Gunter Wand is the one that opened my eyes to this symphony. Jochum is excellent, and I prefer his EMI recording to the DG. Does the peaks in the scherzo spot-on for me, like no other. Tintner does an interesting "First Edition" version. Boulez and Furtwangler also deserve my praise, and I even think Karajan has some appeal in this work. Surprisingly fine scherzo, if nothing else. I'll have to give Knappertsbusch (sp) another spin, but didn't much care for it from memory.

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Post by RebLem » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:13 pm

Szell/Cleveland Orch.
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Brendan

Post by Brendan » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:19 pm

Such a shame that Szell recording is out of print. I'll have to chase it down through a decent reseller.

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Post by Barry » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:29 pm

I think I've mentioned on here before that I had an extremely negative reaction to the Szell/Cleveland recording on Sony when I bought that 3/8 set.
I tend to prefer more expansive tempos in this work. It's my favorite Bruckner symphony and one of my favorite pieces period, but I've never found a clear-cut first choice among commercial recordings. If forced to choose one, I'd probably go with Karajan/VPO on DG. Giulini/VPO is another good one. Most of the ones I listen to are live non-commercial recordings, which aren't as good sound-wise, but which I prefer to any of the commercial recordings I know in terms of performance.
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Post by CharmNewton » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:56 pm

While I prefer the Szell/Cleveland recording to any other, as others have mentioned, it is difficult to find at this moment.

Another superb recording is the Lopez-Cobos/Cincinnati Symphony recording. First-class orchestral playing and recorded sound. If the slow movement is not as sublime as Szell's, it remains an excellent choice. I believe Berkshire Record Outlet has it for $2.99.

The Giulini/VPO is also a favorite and perhaps the newer masterings improve on the sound from the first CD issue, which to me lacks warmth and brightness, but can be adjusted. I wish he had recorded it in Chicago.

John

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Post by val » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:33 am

The 8th Symphony is one of my favorite. The Adagio is extraordinary beautiful and the finale is perhaps the best Bruckner ever composed.

I have two preferred versions:
Jochum, almost mystic, but not slow, with sublime phrasing in the Adagio (version with the BPO, 1964).

Eduard van Beinum, more dramatic, with a very powerful finale (with the Concertgebow).

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Post by david johnson » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:21 am

for #8, i prefer eichorn/brucknerorkest of linz/camerata cd.

dj

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Post by jserraglio » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:57 am

BRUCKNER - Eighth Symphony - Jasha Horenstein - Vienna Symphony Orch (c.1955) - Vox Box CDX2 5504 is my favorite.
Also Furtwangler/BPO on Music & Arts or Testament & Schuricht/VPO on EMI.
(Berkshire Record Outlet does have the Lopez-Cobos and 5 others in Cincy's distinguished cycle on Telarc at 2.99 apiece).
Last edited by jserraglio on Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by hautbois » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:59 am

Coincidentally, i just got myself into Bruckner's 8th, and find it very hard to digest at first, and it was Karajan/BPO which i chosed at first hand. I bought the Chailly/Concertgebouw, and it may not be the most exciting rendition there is my thought was, but it is beautifully executed non the less, and strangely, the more i listen to this work, the more it appeals to me!

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Post by Heck148 » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:30 am

for Bruckner #8, I like either of the Soltis - VPO from '60s, or CSO from '90....I also like the Szell/CO

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Post by DavidRoss » Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:06 am

I'm not a big Bruckner fan but have kept trying. One recording which some Brucknerphiles who know my tastes recommended I try was Boulez's 8th (his predilictions countering Bruckner's excesses). I liked it enough to keep coming back for more and now like Bruckner quite a bit, enjoying his 4th through 9th symphonies nearly as much as I like any late romantic orchestral music.
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Post by Ralph » Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:52 am

Gunter Wand recorded the Brucxkner symphony cycle at least three times. The last on BMG is the best.

And give a fair hearing to Tintner's cycle on NAXOS. Sometimes a bit uneven, it's still one of the best.
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Post by pizza » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:16 am

Gunter Wand's live Lubeck Cathedral 8th - Sinfonieorchester des Nordeutschen Rundfunk - on RCA/BMG, unfortunately deleted, is still the one to hear.

There's a superb 8th by Herbert Kegel conducting the Leipzig RSO on Pilz, also deleted.

It's a matter of taste, but I generally prefer the sound of European brass instruments in Bruckner.

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Post by hautbois » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:09 pm

pizza wrote: It's a matter of taste, but I generally prefer the sound of European brass instruments in Bruckner.
What are your excuses? :lol:

I am dying for a recording of the 5th symphony, which 1st recording should i strive for?

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Post by Barry » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:18 pm

hautbois wrote:
pizza wrote: It's a matter of taste, but I generally prefer the sound of European brass instruments in Bruckner.
What are your excuses? :lol:

I am dying for a recording of the 5th symphony, which 1st recording should i strive for?
I think it was Pizza who originally turned me on to what has become one of my favorite Bruckner recordings, the fifth by Jochum and the Concertgebouw from 1986 on the Tahra label. The tempos are more expansive than in Jochum's earlier Bruckner recordings, but he pulled it off wonderfully with the help of great playing by the Amsterdam band. And I agree that in general, the sound of the top European orchestras with their brass blending in a bit more with the rest of the orchestra and softer attacks is preferable in Bruckner's music to that of the top American orchestras with their louder brass and sharper attacks.
Last edited by Barry on Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by pizza » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:19 pm

hautbois wrote:
pizza wrote: It's a matter of taste, but I generally prefer the sound of European brass instruments in Bruckner.
What are your excuses? :lol:

I am dying for a recording of the 5th symphony, which 1st recording should i strive for?
Bruckner also preferred them. :wink:

Try to find Jochum's live 5th with the Concertgebouw on Tahra. It's one of the finest ever recorded.

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Post by Cyril Ignatius » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:30 pm

Many good recommendations have been offered here. Wand, Boulez, Lopez-Cobos, Karajan -all are solid Bruckner conductors.

The Bruckner Fifth was mentioned in one of the posts, and the Fifth is an underappreciated giant. I have recordings from Karajan and Jochum, both of which I love, and an LP version from Lorin Maazel with Vienna.

Its good to hear of people venturing into Bruckner. Bruckner generally doesn't make greatest composer shortlists because his compositional successes don't cover as many different realms as say Mozart, Beethoven or Tchaikovsky. But his symphonies, masses, and I would hasten to add, his motets are among the very best in their respective realms. A Bruckner symphony is a musical experience unto itself. Writers have argued that his developments of the symphony anticipate some of the 20th century developments. Yet, in other ways, the mystical language of his symphonic work, its monumental scale and complexity, and the sheer time and patience required of the listener to really digest his music in many senses is very countercultural today, and could in fact be grounds for seeing Bruckner's music as the ultimate rebuke of the restlessness, agitation, and nihilism that flourished in the century that followed him.
Cyril Ignatius

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Post by hautbois » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:56 am

My first experience of the 5th was Claus Peter Flor conducting the Malaysian Philharmonic, since then i have been looking for a good recording of it, with no avail (Towers Kuala Lumpur has ran out of stock with it's 5ths). Amazing experience, beautiful, strong, exuberant from start till end. Good to hear that many people suggest Jochum's Concertgebouw recording, my favourite orchestra. :D

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Post by DavidRoss » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:52 am

re. the 5th--again, with no pretensions to Bruckner expertise or familiarity with all the recordings out there, I have been satisfied with Wand's NDR disc.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

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Post by Barry » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:47 am

DavidRoss wrote:re. the 5th--again, with no pretensions to Bruckner expertise or familiarity with all the recordings out there, I have been satisfied with Wand's NDR disc.
I have a DVD of Wand and the NDR performing the fifth. It's outstanding. One of my favorite orchestral DVDs; and a great performance.

I bought their DVD of the eighth as a result, but didn't like it as much. But I was also a little disappointed with that Lubbuck Cathedral eighth on CD after having very high expectations. I think it's more the sound of the orchestra than Wand's interpretation that I'm not crazy about.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

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Post by pizza » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:40 am

Barry Z wrote: But I was also a little disappointed with that Lubbuck Cathedral eighth on CD after having very high expectations. I think it's more the sound of the orchestra than Wand's interpretation that I'm not crazy about.
I found (and continue to find) the slight reverb in Lubeck Cathedral somehow other-worldly and very much in keeping with what I supposed Bruckner himself would have enjoyed -- which is probably what attracted me to the recording in the first place. The 87 minute performance is beautifully paced.

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Post by Barry » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:08 pm

pizza wrote:
Barry Z wrote: But I was also a little disappointed with that Lubbuck Cathedral eighth on CD after having very high expectations. I think it's more the sound of the orchestra than Wand's interpretation that I'm not crazy about.
I found (and continue to find) the slight reverb in Lubeck Cathedral somehow other-worldly and very much in keeping with what I supposed Bruckner himself would have enjoyed -- which is probably what attracted me to the recording in the first place. The 87 minute performance is beautifully paced.
Which is probably why my expectations were so high. I usually agree with you when it comes to Bruckner recordings.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

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Post by Jack Kelso » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:39 am

I learned the Bruckner Fifth from Knappertsbusch/Vienna Phil. Still love it but also enjoy Jochum's.

Didn't Ormandy do the Fifth in stereo? Anyone own it?

For the Fourth and Ninth it's still Walter tops. Seventh it's Böhm and Tintner, Klemperer or Jochum for the 6th.

Jack
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Post by pizza » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:01 am

It's hard to do a bad 7th. The symphony almost plays itself.

For the 4th and 6th I've been listening lately to Celibidache/Munich. There's much to recommend both of these recordings and I think they're the highlight of his EMI set (3 to 9).

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Post by val » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:38 am

hautbois

I am dying for a recording of the 5th symphony, which 1st recording should i strive for?
My preferred version: Jochum with the Concertgebow Orchestra. (PHILIPS).

The old version of Furtwängler, with the BPO (1942), of Barenboim also with the BPO (TELDEC) and Kempe with the Munich Orchestra are also very interesting.

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Post by david johnson » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:39 am

' Didn't Ormandy do the Fifth in stereo? Anyone own it? '

i have it. it's good, but different sounding.

dj

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Post by Cyril Ignatius » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:38 pm

Barry Z wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:re. the 5th--again, with no pretensions to Bruckner expertise or familiarity with all the recordings out there, I have been satisfied with Wand's NDR disc.
I have a DVD of Wand and the NDR performing the fifth. It's outstanding. One of my favorite orchestral DVDs; and a great performance.

I bought their DVD of the eighth as a result, but didn't like it as much. But I was also a little disappointed with that Lubbuck Cathedral eighth on CD after having very high expectations. I think it's more the sound of the orchestra than Wand's interpretation that I'm not crazy about.
Yes, I also have Wand's Bruckner Fifth on DVD with the NDR. It's a very nice recording. Wand is clearly among the excellent Bruckner conductors. Also to be recommended are his CD recordings of the Fourth and Ninth.
Cyril Ignatius

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:28 pm

Any recommendations for a completed 9th? Eichhorn, Wildner, Haroncourt or Talmi? Are any worth bothering with?

Just can't get enough 9th.

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Post by pizza » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:39 am

Brendan wrote:Any recommendations for a completed 9th? Eichhorn, Wildner, Haroncourt or Talmi? Are any worth bothering with?
I have the Eichhorn set on Camerata and heard the "completion" once. That was enough.

The 9th is fine just as it is.

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Post by Jack Kelso » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:54 am

Cyril Ignatius wrote:Yes, I also have Wand's Bruckner Fifth on DVD with the NDR. It's a very nice recording. Wand is clearly among the excellent Bruckner conductors. Also to be recommended are his CD recordings of the Fourth and Ninth.
I have the Wand Bruckner Fourth, and---unless he has another version stashed away somewhere---I find it extremely inconsistent and lacking in spirituality. Even the recorded sound is harsh.

Give me Walter, Klemperer or Barenboim--- or even Solti or Steinberg!

Jack
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Post by pizza » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:40 am

Jack Kelso wrote:
Cyril Ignatius wrote:Yes, I also have Wand's Bruckner Fifth on DVD with the NDR. It's a very nice recording. Wand is clearly among the excellent Bruckner conductors. Also to be recommended are his CD recordings of the Fourth and Ninth.
I have the Wand Bruckner Fourth, and---unless he has another version stashed away somewhere---I find it extremely inconsistent and lacking in spirituality. Even the recorded sound is harsh.

Give me Walter, Klemperer or Barenboim--- or even Solti or Steinberg!

Jack
There are at least 6 recordings by Wand of the 4th, issued on various labels. There are probably others as yet unreleased, as he was perhaps the most prolific European Bruckner conductor ever to raise a baton.

Of these, I've heard the '76 Cologne RSO recording which is good, but in my opinion not the equal of the very best such as Celibidache, Klemperer and Bohm.

The BPO '98 live recording received a glowing review in Gramophone, and hopefully I'll get around to hearing it.





Wand - Berlin Phil live 30-31/1&1/2/98 BMG CD 09026 68839-2 ............ 68:40 - 19:11 16:07 11:21 22:01

Wand - Cologne RSO 10/12/76 BMG/RCA CD 60079 & set .......... 64:22 - 17:26 15:37 10:33 20:22 EMI CD CDC 7 47745 2 & set Pro Arte LP PAL 1044 Harmonia Mundi LP 1C 065-99 738 BMG (Japan) BVCC 38174 RCA CD 09026 63934 2

Wand - North German RSO live 19/6/90 BMG/RCA CD 60784-2-RC ........... 66:14 - 18:00 15:19 10:58 21:26 BMG/RCA CD 77706 0 Japan BMG CD BVCC 37024-31 RCA CD 74321 68010 2

Wand - Munich Phil. live 13/9/01 En Larmes CD ELS 02 188.......... 71:00 - 20:11 16:23 11:51 22:33

Wand - Munich Phil. live 14/9/01 En Larmes CD ELS 01 138.......... 71:00 - 20:10 16:21 11:47 22:31 En Larmes CD ELS 01 136/137

Wand - North German RSO live BMG/RCA CD 93041-2............... 71:23 – 20:12 16:44 11:49 22:38 (Wand’s Last Concert 28-30/10/01) Sounds Supreme 2S 007

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:30 pm

pizza wrote:
Brendan wrote:Any recommendations for a completed 9th? Eichhorn, Wildner, Haroncourt or Talmi? Are any worth bothering with?
I have the Eichhorn set on Camerata and heard the "completion" once. That was enough.

The 9th is fine just as it is.
It's all there is, really, and I can live with that, yet always feel on listening to the third movement that the symphony is unresolved without the finale. I find if I just listen to the first three movements of the 8th or 7th as comparison (many 2cd 8ths have the break here) that they don't need the finale as much as the 9th is crying out for it.

If nothing else, curiosity beckons. I might get the Wildner.

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Post by Barry » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:28 pm

Brendan wrote: I find if I just listen to the first three movements of the 8th or 7th as comparison (many 2cd 8ths have the break here) that they don't need the finale as much as the 9th is crying out for it.
The eighth may not need a finale, but the one it has is SO magnificant.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:17 pm

Barry Z wrote:
Brendan wrote: I find if I just listen to the first three movements of the 8th or 7th as comparison (many 2cd 8ths have the break here) that they don't need the finale as much as the 9th is crying out for it.
The eighth may not need a finale, but the one it has is SO magnificant.
Rigth on! I don't want an 8th without a finale but a 9th with one.

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Post by Cyril Ignatius » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:40 pm

I don't think the Ninth needs a finale. Bruckner dedicated the Ninth to God, but in my estimation, God determined that the three movements as written contained a complete work and a beautiful closing. Moreover, trying to produce a fourth movement on what exists would require massive musical conjecture on the part of whomever would undertake such a preposterous adventure, but would invariably lack the Brucknerian inspiration necessary to its success. Not worth attempting. The Ninth has one of the most perfect endings of a symphony.
Cyril Ignatius

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:59 pm

That Bruckner intended a fianle of which copious notes survive is not in question (hence hardly perfect as Bruckner conceived the whole piece), nor is the fact that Bruckner did not complete it. Nonetheless, many works attributed to various composers down the years have been modified, orchestrated and completed in various forms, not only by modern scholars.

Some folks have curiousities about some things that can kick in, such as when I read what a travesty it is that we haven't a complete Bruckner 9th considering the stage of completion it was at. I'm not a musicologist, but my interest became piqued. If others are not, so be it.

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Post by pizza » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:43 am

Brendan wrote:That Bruckner intended a fianle of which copious notes survive is not in question (hence hardly perfect as Bruckner conceived the whole piece), nor is the fact that Bruckner did not complete it. Nonetheless, many works attributed to various composers down the years have been modified, orchestrated and completed in various forms, not only by modern scholars.

Some folks have curiousities about some things that can kick in, such as when I read what a travesty it is that we haven't a complete Bruckner 9th considering the stage of completion it was at. I'm not a musicologist, but my interest became piqued. If others are not, so be it.
I reread the chapter on the 9th in Robert Simpson's The Essence of Bruckner, and far from having conceived the entire symphony, what survives shows that he was still struggling with the basic conception of the final movement. There is no real outline, no connective tissue, so to speak, no coda whatsoever, and what remains are simply disconnected sketches. Bruckner was very much aware of the conceptual difficulties he was having.

Simpson was an eminent musicologist, an expert on Bruckner, and was a fine composer in his own right. He was aware of various attempts to provide an ersatz completion. In his opinion what remains of the sketches are inadequate to give a meaningful idea of what the final movement would have been, because Bruckner himself didn't know. There isn't a comprehensive sketch in the sense of Mahler's 10th that would enable another Deryck Cooke to put together a performing version.

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:17 pm

I know Wikipaedia is hardly authoritative, but there's plenty of other hits like this if you do a Google search on the subject:

Although Bruckner had conceived the entire movement in his mind, it appears that he never actually wrote down the coda. Because of Bruckner's individual composing habits, reconstructing the Finale is in some ways easier, and in some ways harder, than it would be to reconstruct an unfinished piece by another composer. Large portions of the movement were almost completely orchestrated, and even some eminent sketches have been found for the coda, but only hearsay suggesting the coda would have integrated themes from all four movements. Compounding the problem, collectible hunters ransacked Bruckner's house soon after his death. Sketches for the Finale have been found as far away from Austria as Washington D.C.

Bruckner knew he might not live to complete this Symphony and suggested using his Te Deum as a Finale: however this suggestion has rarely if ever been carried out.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_(Bruckner)

And for some detail (including facts about surviving bits of the coda):

In fact, the new philological research shows clearly, that the Finale material consists a) of various particello sketches and drafts, b) several rejected score bifolios, and c) the subsequently numbered, valid score bifolios of the emerging autograph score.

Several of the valid score bifolios, however, were stolen by souvenir hunters from Bruckner´s dying-chamber. It was possible to reconstruct what remained from the Finale´s autograph score on a solid philological fundament. The incomplete autograph score (not "the sketches"!!!) today breaks off after ca 562 measures, shortly before the coda, which survives in at least further 56 measures, including the final cadenza going back into the tonic. From the manuscript it is evident that Bruckner must have completed the entire score at least in strings some time before his death; also the exposition (13 score bifolios) must have been ready in full instrumentation. Several of the final, valid score bifolios are lost today, most likely also including the very end of the movement, which was originally ca 700 measures long.


From http://www.classicalsource.com/db_contr ... php?id=799

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Post by burnitdown » Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:12 pm

Ugh. That suggests we lost the partial ending to his 9th via disorganization and theft.

I'm new here, and relatively new to any organized study of classical music, but am enchanted by Bruckner. It is both intensely meditative, and heavy in a way that I have not heard outside of underground music.

I have been seeking information on conductors and recordings of Bruckner's symphonies. So far, I've heard Jochum and Karajan each doing the fourth and seventh. I think Jochum gets more in touch with the emotion, Karajan more with the spirit.

For Bruckner's fourth, my favorite so far is the Salonen. It takes the emotion of Jochum and tunes it down and makes it subservient to the dramatic and passionate drive that von Karajan captured, interpreting the rhythms in a sense more of continuous motion than seizure-and-transition. Absolutely beautiful.

I'm curious to see how Eschenbach did with Bruckner, and am going to find out how Hans Graf will do on January 12th here in H-town.

Some resources for Brucknerians:

Completist discography
Anton Bruckner biography
About that unfinished ninth..
I like this biography

Barry
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Post by Barry » Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:32 pm

burnitdown wrote:
I'm curious to see how Eschenbach did with Bruckner ...
He's only conducted the seventh since he's been in Philly, but he'll be leading the ninth next month. I was disappointed in that sevent. As with his earlier recordings of the fourth and sixth, I like his slowish tempos, but the climaxes struck me as a little lacking in power.
However, he did lead a sensational performance of the eigth with the VPO at the Proms last year. I'm not sure if it's available anywhere on the Internet. I heard it over the Proms website, but it was only available for a week after the performance.

The Philadelphia Orchestras download site (www.thephiladelphiaorchestra.com) now contains two of Sawallisch's performances from the early part of this decade; the third and fifth. I was blown away by both when I saw them in person, so it's nice to have a chance to hear them again. The fifth in particular is outstanding and can be downloaded for only about five bucks.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

anasazi
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Location: Sarasota Florida

Post by anasazi » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:09 am

Jack Kelso wrote:I learned the Bruckner Fifth from Knappertsbusch/Vienna Phil. Still love it but also enjoy Jochum's.

Didn't Ormandy do the Fifth in stereo? Anyone own it?

For the Fourth and Ninth it's still Walter tops. Seventh it's Böhm and Tintner, Klemperer or Jochum for the 6th.

Jack
Quite correct, Ormandy did record the Fifth in stereo. As fas as I can tell it was only available once on a two-lp vinyl set. The set also included the Bruckner Te Deum to fill out the second disc. But if it was ever on CD, I've not seen it. If I remember rightly, it was a rather brisk interpretation.

The 5th is the one Bruckner symphony, at least among his mature works, that I've had the most difficulty understanding. But not the eighth. That was always a favorite. I still enjoy it tremendously, and have liked the Wand BMG recording among many others.

My only complete Bruckner set is currently the Haitink/Concertgebouw.
"Take only pictures, leave only footprints" - John Muir.

Micha

Post by Micha » Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:07 am

Ralph wrote:Gunter Wand recorded the Brucxkner symphony cycle at least three times. The last on BMG is the best.
Well, he only recorded #1 and #2 in Cologne and then never again, he not even conduct them in concerts, AFAIK. In the interview included with his last recording (#4, mentioned in the list by pizza below), he says that he had some serious problems with #1 and did not want to return to it. I don't recall if or what he said about #2.
pizza wrote: There are at least 6 recordings by Wand of the 4th, issued on various labels. There are probably others as yet unreleased, as he was perhaps the most prolific European Bruckner conductor ever to raise a baton.

Of these, I've heard the '76 Cologne RSO recording which is good, but in my opinion not the equal of the very best such as Celibidache, Klemperer and Bohm.

The BPO '98 live recording received a glowing review in Gramophone, and hopefully I'll get around to hearing it.

Wand - Berlin Phil live 30-31/1&1/2/98 BMG CD 09026 68839-2 ............ 68:40 - 19:11 16:07 11:21 22:01

Wand - Cologne RSO 10/12/76 BMG/RCA CD 60079 & set .......... 64:22 - 17:26 15:37 10:33 20:22 EMI CD CDC 7 47745 2 & set Pro Arte LP PAL 1044 Harmonia Mundi LP 1C 065-99 738 BMG (Japan) BVCC 38174 RCA CD 09026 63934 2

Wand - North German RSO live 19/6/90 BMG/RCA CD 60784-2-RC ........... 66:14 - 18:00 15:19 10:58 21:26 BMG/RCA CD 77706 0 Japan BMG CD BVCC 37024-31 RCA CD 74321 68010 2

Wand - Munich Phil. live 13/9/01 En Larmes CD ELS 02 188.......... 71:00 - 20:11 16:23 11:51 22:33

Wand - Munich Phil. live 14/9/01 En Larmes CD ELS 01 138.......... 71:00 - 20:10 16:21 11:47 22:31 En Larmes CD ELS 01 136/137

Wand - North German RSO live BMG/RCA CD 93041-2............... 71:23 – 20:12 16:44 11:49 22:38 (Wand’s Last Concert 28-30/10/01) Sounds Supreme 2S 007
There is also a DVD with the NDR. That may be the same as the 1990 live recording, though. I am totally confused by all the different Wand recordings. Good thing there is Berky's discography. I was lucky enough to see him live many times, including some of the concerts which then ended up on CD, like the live Bruckner 8 with the BP which was a very gripping concert.

Harold Tucker
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Post by Harold Tucker » Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:34 am

I believe the Ormandy/ Philadelphia recording of the Fifth
is of a Shalk edition and is therefore a curiosity rather than a contender. My first choice for Five and Six are those by Klemperer on EMI. Giulini and Wand are my picks for No. 8.

Barry
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Post by Barry » Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:50 am

Micha wrote: .... I was lucky enough to see him live many times, including some of the concerts which then ended up on CD, like the live Bruckner 8 with the BP which was a very gripping concert.
I tried to get tickets for that and was going to travel to Berlin to see it (make it part of a larger vacation of course), but it was sold out by the time I tried and I wasn't about to travel that far without a guarantee of getting into the concert.
I wound up getting tickets for a Thielemann/Concertgebouw Bruckner 5 instead, and with my luck, T cancelled and was replaced by Inbal, who led what I thought was a weak performance from an interpretive standpoint (although the Concertgebouw sounded glorious playing Bruckner in their home hall).

BTW, contrary to one of the above posts, that Ormandy Bruckner 5 was available for a number of years on CD, as part of the Sony Essential Classics series.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

CharmNewton
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Post by CharmNewton » Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:54 pm

Harold Tucker wrote:I believe the Ormandy/ Philadelphia recording of the Fifth
is of a Shalk edition and is therefore a curiosity rather than a contender.
The Ormandy recording used the Original Version of the score (I don't believe the Fifth went through a lot of revisions like other symphonies) not the Schalk. It runs 71+ minutes. Knappertsbusch/VPO did use the Schalk edition.

John

CharmNewton
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Post by CharmNewton » Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Barry Z wrote:
Micha wrote: .... I was lucky enough to see him live many times, including some of the concerts which then ended up on CD, like the live Bruckner 8 with the BP which was a very gripping concert.
IBTW, contrary to one of the above posts, that Ormandy Bruckner 5 was available for a number of years on CD, as part of the Sony Essential Classics series.
It is still available on Essential Classics. It was also available as a budget two-disc CBS Odyssey set with Bruno Walter's Seventh. This was noteworthy at the time as the previous CD issue of the Walter was spread over two full-priced discs.

John

Micha

Post by Micha » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:42 pm

Barry Z wrote:
Micha wrote: .... I was lucky enough to see him live many times, including some of the concerts which then ended up on CD, like the live Bruckner 8 with the BP which was a very gripping concert.
I tried to get tickets for that and was going to travel to Berlin to see it (make it part of a larger vacation of course), but it was sold out by the time I tried and I wasn't about to travel that far without a guarantee of getting into the concert.
I wound up getting tickets for a Thielemann/Concertgebouw Bruckner 5 instead, and with my luck, T cancelled and was replaced by Inbal, who led what I thought was a weak performance from an interpretive standpoint (although the Concertgebouw sounded glorious playing Bruckner in their home hall).
I think that in itself is very nice. Was that in 2001? I heard the 8th with Wand several times, with the RSO Berlin in the late 80s, then with the BP in 96, then again in 2001, both nights the program was given. I think the live recording is from the last concerts. All these concerts were great, especially the last ones. Very intense and the athmosphere in the hall was electric. Wand was cool. He was the real thing. I saw him often with the RSO Berlin, BP, and NDR. There was never a dull or superficial evening. I was also fortunate to see other great Bruckner concerts, with Giulini, Karajan, Masur (yes Masur! he conducted a fantastic 7 in Berlin), Blomstedt, Dohnanyi, even Celidbidache who I now don't care much for anymore, but he was somehow fascinating to listen to.

Barry
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:12 pm

Micha wrote: I think that in itself is very nice. Was that in 2001?
Thanks. It must have been 2001, because the Concertgebouw concert I wound up going to instead took place only several weeks after the 9/11 attacks.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Micha

Post by Micha » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:20 pm

Yes, that was that year....it weas the last time I saw Wand live. It makes me a little sad to think of that. I don't think I will ever hear something quite like that again.

RE Eschenbach, I have his recording of the 4th with the Orchestre de Paris. It is quite good, the orchestral sound fairly light and bright, but pleasantly sonorous. But it doesn't knock me off the couch. There is a tendency to slowness in that performance, but a slowness that Eschenbach can not quite fill out. He just isn't the master of the long line he apparently wants to be. But it's an OK performance.

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