should we follow collective opinions or is our inner voice

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:51 pm

Of importantce?
Sure collectivity is of the utmost importance, as this force builds our concert halls, music schools, builds cd manufactuing, recording studios, and inspires instrument makes to make objects to paly muisc with. Not least collectivity provides composers with a audience to listen to their works.
i mean a composer stuck in the middle of the desert with no community has no desire to compose.
The inspiration comes from the epoch he lives in, time and place have some significant influence on shape and form.
But does collective opinion have the right to object to the individual's feelings? Even though these feelings may fall in stark contrast to collectivity?
For instance the syms of Sibelius seem to me a outdated and of little significance in today's world. More than that, critically they do not seem to be coherent as a unified whole. There is a theme that opens and then stops, another starts in, but no lines leading up properly to introduce the new theme, chords are left hanging in mid air, dissapate then , disappears. Then at the end of the sym you are not sure what is so significant about the sym.
Some beautiful, intreguing passages for sure, but taken as a whole, it lacks in integrity, as though Sibelius had started with ojne central idea, but then somewhere he gets side tracked. Besides Sibelius harks back to a past that Debussy , Ravel and many others left behind.
Even his closest countryman, Pettersson draws little inspiration from the great Sibelius.
What I am asking should collective opinion continue to speak so highly of Sibelius syms and perpetuate this myth of 'greatness indeed! By all means tis so!" With complete confidence and NOT allowing any objections to the decreed opinion from The Censorship.
Whereas I hear Pettersson as far excelling any of Sibelius syms, yet this belief should not be confronted with , "how dare you even think to compare Pettersson as more important than Sibelius!!" "Preposterous!"
Will the majority always rule? or does the individual have a right to be heard without the threat of unfair attacking criticism?

premont · Post by **premont** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:28 am

If I like some music, I do so, because it talks to me (e.g. Beethoven) and for no other reasons. Well, others may have learnt me to like it by letting me get to know it. On the other hand: Kind people have tried to learn me to like much collectively accepted music during the years (e.g.romantic opera) without result, and in the end the collective opinion is of no importance to me.

Agnes Selby · Post by **Agnes Selby** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:14 am

Dear Paul,

I do not think there is a collective listening experience.
At a concert each person reacts to the music differently.
People who had a bad day at the office, or someone
who comes to the concert after a run in with the mother-in-law.
will have a different reaction to the music than someone
who is relaxed and ready to enjoy the evening. Also, tastes
differ. A Mahler symphony in contrast to a Mozart symphony will
affect each individual differently.

Regards,
Agnes.

david johnson · Post by **david johnson** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:15 am

i have no trouble making up my own mind, nor do i have trouble consulting
'collective' perceptions if i think they're worthwhile.

dj

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:54 am

david johnson wrote:i have no trouble making up my own mind, nor do i have trouble consulting
'collective' perceptions if i think they're worthwhile.

dj

Good answer.
However if there comes a time of maturity in your classical development ,a place where you now begin to hear differently. Something in you has changed, the muisc you once loved is now heard with a different sense of listening experience. What before was exalted by some quality you found appealing at the time, combined with the collective belief in its superior nature, now comes a time when a new critical ear is listening. This may be due to changes in your life, circusstances both inner and outer may initiate these perception changes. Though the collective opinion has remained unchanged, you now are not as sure as you once were.
There are many inner experiences that could precipatate this personal alteration, there is one outer experience which can be named as a major influence. This is our encounter with new composers.
What we heard before now has some new contrasts.......You know I should stop at this point, as I am listening to Sibelius 4th early this morning, a sym I've not heard in a while and under different circumstances. This early morning 5:30 AM listening session may tie in with what Agnes brought up, what objectively is going on in our life at that particular moment.
Another influence may be that a "cold front" has pushed its way into baton Rouge with 60 degree temps and maybe Sibelius has this character of the "northern frontier" to its sound. Also I'm a bit more patient with its at times slow development and hearing it as more of a chamber sym. So my acceptance level has been altered with these new circumstances.
But frankly its in the romantic tradition with its long drawn out developments and one must wait to the end to get at its final capitulation.
This may be my problem, I've no patience with the slow development idea of composition. I want the experience to be riveting, gut-wrenching, "blow my mind" style of writing, to be swept away into other worlds, leave this old has=been world behind. "Has-been" now is called , 'been there=done that", so you get my idea.

The Sibelius 4th has just finished up and that super high charged capitulation that i was refering to, somehow didn't come in the 4th movement. What happened? It was like I was concentrating writing, and the next thing I hear is the wonderful opening to the 6th sym. Like what happened in the final of the 4th, like "huih?" So i am now relistening to the 4th movement. Here's where its chamber characteristic comes through, never full blown development, just a hint of past themes with new variations set in subtle textured forms. Its an interesting sym, and one I would recommend for all newbies to classical music. Sibelius I now can see only works for me in a live setting, recorded medium limits and hampers the full emotional impact of the music. This music must be met in a more substansive enviornment for its content to bloom full.
The 6th has begun, and once again it seems chamber in approach. The 1st movement has the lovely theme flirting in and out weaved by different groups of instruments. I just have to get beyond the "filler material" those references to the romantic tradition which Sibelius often harkens back to. Its like old themes from past masters have come back to haunt his world and he feels he must give voice to these old friends. These lovely melodies that flutter in and out of each movement certainly have their appeal, engaging the interest. But I'm not sure if the Finnish Sym Orch came to Baton Rouge with Sibelius syms on the program that I would want to drop all other plans to attend.
I recognize the importance of Sibelius syms in my early yrs of classical education and journey, but a parting of the ways has occured. Though a chance encounter, as like this morning cannot be ruled out in my future For instance a new stereo(845 tube amp) may open up a new dimension to these sounds and images, which ups the excitment level.

But the main influence in my changes has been the encounter with Allan Pettersson, a composer of my time with words that speak to me in power and great meaning. This is the kind of music that would affect me if even broadcast on a AM radio.
Welp the Sibelius 6th is finishing up with its lovely theme embedded within a romantic setting of color and textures. Ceratinly has its charms, no denying that.
However the performance has much to do with the effectivenss of carrying Sibelius' muisc with conviction.
I've found that Berglund/Helsinki to be wonderful, also Segerstam/Danish/Chandos offers fine renditions (may be OOP),. Here i;'m lsitening to a Berlin Classic release, 4/Kegel, 6/Berglund both with the Rundfunk. Highly recommended, included is a fine performance of the Swan Of Tuonela.

MaestroDJS · Post by **MaestroDJS** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:51 am

Collective opinions are useful guides, and they have helped me to appreciation music in ways I might not have done on my own. However I am also quite free to make my own decisions. To cite only the Baroque era as an example, I absolutely agree with the collective opinions that Bach and Handel are among the great masters. However, if I had not also struck out on my own, I might never have discovered Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber, who amazes me every time I hear his music. He had a remarkable reputation in his lifetime, both for his great virtuosity as a violinist and for his astoundingly original music. Yet he is not performed nearly as often as many other Baroque composers today.

Sometimes I walk the beaten path, and sometimes I take the road less traveled. By extension, this philosophy is also why I have visited all 50 states in the union. I could be perfectly happy with the well-known destinations, but then I might never have discovered such gems as the magnificent National Music Museum in Vermillion, South Dakota (its collections of more than 10,000 European, North American and non-Western musical instruments are comparable to museums in music centers such as Berlin, Vienna and Paris), or that sensational steakhouse in Bismarck, North Dakota.

Dave

David Stybr, Engineer and Composer: It's Left Brain vs. Right Brain: best 2 falls out of 3
http://members.SibeliusMusic.com/Stybr
Andante Cantabile for String Orchestra (5:00)
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david johnson · Post by **david johnson** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:55 am

paulb:

it's just part of 'growing up' regarding listening skills, emotion/intellect vying for their own space within your listening realm.

dj

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:37 am

paulb wrote:For instance the syms of Sibelius seem to me a outdated and of little significance in today's world. More than that, critically they do not seem to be coherent as a unified whole.

To me the Sibelius symphonies have staying power, and are in fact less outdated than some more recent works which you seem to prefer.

Further, the seven Sibelius symphonies seem to me to cohere better than you may be capable of perceiving.

Even his closest countryman, Pettersson draws little inspiration from the great Sibelius.

"Closest countryman," Paul? What a gift you have for casually dropping ridiculous remarks!

(a) Pettersson was a Swede; Sibelius was a Finn. There must be twenty other composers who would be "closer countrymen" to Sibelius.

(b) I suppose that, because of your personal adopration of Pettersson, you imagine that this is somehow a virtue on his part. But whether or not Sibelius was any musical influence upon Pettersson does not in the least bear on whether the latter's music is great, lousy, or mediocre. Just does not signify, Paul.

What I am asking should collective opinion continue to speak so highly of Sibelius syms and perpetuate this myth of 'greatness indeed! By all means tis so!" With complete confidence and NOT allowing any objections to the decreed opinion from The Censorship.

Paul, do you have nothing better to do with your time than spin verbiage? There is no myth unvolved in Sibelius's greatness. On very much the other hand, your personal crusade to assert that Pettersson is a great symphonist, or that Schnittke is the most important 20th century composer, or that Schnittke is unique among composers for being equally important as a writer, is your personal exercise in pure wishful mythologizing.

Thanks for the laughs, Paul!

Cheers,
~Karl

diegobueno · Post by **diegobueno** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:41 am

Paul,

I realize your views on music are a bit eccentric, and your tastes clash quite a bit with my own, but I think you're entitled to them. Your opinions don't bother me because you clearly express them as your own. You don't tell us we should all believe as you do (I think), or that we lack proper education because we believe differently.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:51 am

OK Karl maybe some of my rant is atd on the hyperbole and will refrain from trying to inculcate my beliefs on this board. You guys are too seasoned and worn-and tried to be won over with convincing. Like any of the higher mysteries of like, religious and otherwise, only the experience counts. Lao Tzu knew of the limitations of words in discussions.
But one thing is for sure, we live in a changing world. Nothing you or I can do or say will prevent these changes from taking place.
I forsee changes in the classical realm, a slight juxtaposition of composers in popularity.
Nothing drastic, but indeed some changes will occur.
Will you accept them when they arrive?

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:56 am

MaestroDJS wrote:Collective opinions are useful guides, and they have helped me to appreciation music in ways I might not have done on my own. However I am also quite free to make my own decisions. To cite only the Baroque era as an example, I absolutely agree with the collective opinions that Bach and Handel are among the great masters. However, if I had not also struck out on my own, I might never have discovered Heinrich Ignaz Franz von Biber, who amazes me every time I hear his music.

Nor would Ralph have discovered Dittersdorf (who I know is not baroque).

I relied an awful lot on my teachers and fellow students, plus books like The Classical Style that I read in collee. Their opinions have really never let me down over the years. I don't strike out in new directions (you know like swing too high instead of too low) as much as many here do, but I don't usually hit these gold mines of wonderful listening that people here talk about, and therefore don't spend much time on it. One exception I can think of is the chamber music of Dvorak, or at least some of it, which was completely neglected when I was in school and had to discover on my own. Shostakovich is also an independent discovery, as are the few works of Franck that reach into the skies. They didn't talk much about Bruckner, but I have tried and tried with Bruckner on my own and still don't get him (in his case I'll probaby try again).

Of course I'm not doubting any of these opinions about lesser known composers, I just listen to more standardly known masters most of the time, but I also listen to a lot of Renaissance music and Gregorian Chant, so I hope I am not marked has having no flexibility at all.

As an organist I don't find too much outside Bach (and the chorale preludes of Brahms, and I can play them) that bears repeated listening, but just so you don't think I'm quite that narrow, I find Marcel Dupre to be quite wonderful. Uneven, but wonderful. He is my favorite French composer for organ. In particular, he wrote wonderful fugues.

greymouse · Post by **greymouse** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:04 am

It's a good question, and I agree with many of the answers already posted: we should do both.

We ought to pay attention to the well reasoned opinion in case there's something we didn't think of. We should at least listen to worthwhile opinions and hear them out to make sure we're hearing all we can in a piece of music. Here I say "well reasoned opinion" because it's of equal value to "educated" opinion. Education helps us to reason, but it isn't the only way.

But ultimately, we gotta go with our instincts. We like what we like and that's good enough. "Collective opinion" changes all the time in the classical music world because people are willing to question dogma.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:09 am

paulb wrote:You guys are too seasoned and worn-and tried to be won over with convincing. Like any of the higher mysteries of like, religious and otherwise, only the experience counts.

Well, Paul, part of my point is, that Mark and I have long and ample experience with the Sibelius symphonies, and that experience is going to count much more than your tornado of anti-Sibelius blather.

I forsee changes in the classical realm, a slight juxtaposition of composers in popularity.
Nothing drastic, but indeed some changes will occur.
Will you accept them when they arrive?

Paul, you seem to live in this True Believer World, in which you imagine that the world will attain Enlightment by acknowledging that your own personal aesthetic values are some kind of Universal Standard.

If you really dream that someday the musical world will realize that we were all "fooled into thinking" that Sibelius, Schoenberg and Stravinsky were three of the major musical lights of the century, where "in fact" the 20th-c. musical throne has the rear end of Schnittke propped up on its velvet cushions, well, I wish you joy of your musical fantasies.

Paul, I compose, and as a composer, I listen to new music (including old music to which my ears are new) all the time. My musical thought is fluid and dynamic. Of the two of us, you and I, Paul, if one of us has ossified ears which resist outside influences, the ossified ears are to either side of your own head, mon vieux.

Cheers,
~Karl

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:18 am

Well, I spit on the "collective opinion" that Schumann didn't know how to orchestrate his symphonies.

And I'll spit on the "collective opinion" that Chopin wrote 'inferior' piano concerti.

Cheers,
~Karl

MaestroDJS · Post by **MaestroDJS** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:37 am

paulb wrote:I forsee changes in the classical realm, a slight juxtaposition of composers in popularity.
Nothing drastic, but indeed some changes will occur.
Will you accept them when they arrive?

Nahhhhhh...

After all, if I simply accepted them, then I wouldn't follow my inner voice, eh?

Speaking of which, all this quasi-anti-Sibelius rhetoric has whetted my appetite for ... Sibelius. Whenever I hear his Symphony No. 7 I think, "This is one of the reasons music exists!" Even an early, immature and withdrawn work like his "Kullervo" Symphony bowls me over. If that goes against the grain of accepted music (which I doubt), then I'll just have to endure that stigma somehow.

To paraphrase Homer Simpson, "Mmm ... Kullervo." The Sibelius "Kullervo" Symphony has soprano and baritone soloists, a male chorus and a large orchestra. When the vocalists get going in the 3rd movement and belt out the Finnish text (the male chorus sings mostly in unison), it can be positively hair-raising, because this movement is in 5/4 time and the Finnish language is heavy in words with the accent on the first syllable. Incidentally, this is not among Sibelius's numbered symphonies, and shortly after its première in 1892 he forbade any more performances during his lifetime (he lived until 1957). It's not top-notch Sibelius, but even second-rate Sibelius can be terrific. The texts are taken from the Finnish epic of Kullervo.

Kullervo, Kalervon poika,
sinisukka äijön lapsi,
hivus keltainen, korea,
kengän kauto kaunokainen,
läksi viemähän vetoja,
maajyviä maksamahan.

[Kullervo, Kalervo's offspring,
with the very bluest stockings
And with yellow hair the finest
And with shoes of finest leather
went to take in the taxes
to pay in the tithes.]

Almost makes me want to learn Finnish. Then I wouldn't think about those shoes of finest (Corinthian) leather, or paying taxes.

karlhenning wrote:Well, I spit on the "collective opinion" that Schumann didn't know how to orchestrate his symphonies.

And I'll spit on the "collective opinion" that Chopin wrote 'inferior' piano concerti.

Ah gee whiz, now you've whetted my appetite for Schumann and Chopin. This listening extravaganza is definitely going into overtime.

Now then, if I listen to music which one faction praises but another condemns, do I follow collective opinion or follow my inner voice or either or neither or both? 'Tis a puzzlement, the perplexities of which only sweet music can assuage.

Dave

David Stybr, Engineer and Composer: It's Left Brain vs. Right Brain: best 2 falls out of 3
http://members.SibeliusMusic.com/Stybr
Andante Cantabile for String Orchestra (5:00)
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Personal Assistant and Der Webmeister to author Denise Swanson
http://www.DeniseSwanson.com
Murder of a Real Bad Boy
Penguin Putnam ~ Signet, New York, NY

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:43 am

We're all individuals, Dave!

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:49 am

karlhenning wrote:Well, I spit on the "collective opinion" that Schumann didn't know how to orchestrate his symphonies.

And I'll spit on the "collective opinion" that Chopin wrote 'inferior' piano concerti.

Cheers,
~Karl

I don't know common those are, though I've heard them from musicians I have no real desire to pay attention to. I certainly don't share them.

What I have heard which I guess I have to believe is that the orchestra parts in the two concertos are much easier than in most other concertos (which does not make them badly written). Erich Leinsdorf in his book on conducting even suggested that they should never be played by major orchestras because it is a waste of forces and more provincial orchestras can handle them just as well. Great book, BTW, whatever you think of that opinion.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:59 am

karlhenning wrote:We're all individuals, Dave!

Yes dave feels the Kullervo is an immature work from Sibelius. I hear it as one of his masterpieces. Its a deeply moving work and one of my favorite from Sibelius, next to his Lemmenakinen Suite.
just to make clear here's a list of my favorites from Sibelius, all deeply beloved, been that way for 20+ yrs and will remain so. Some things in us change, for others we never lose the love.
Kullervo Sym, Lemminkainen Legends, Belshazzar's Feast, Pelleas Et Melisande, Scenes Historiques, Karelia suite, Valse Triste. Tapiola and the 2 Tempest Suite have never appealed to me, but will listen to both this morning, maybe it will be different.
And of course the violin concerto has its moments.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:04 am

paulb wrote:And of course the violin concerto has its moments.

Yes, Heifetz thought so, Kremer thinks so. But you know better, eh, Paul?

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:35 pm

karlhenning wrote:
paulb wrote:And of course the violin concerto has its moments.
Yes, Heifetz thought so, Kremer thinks so. But you know better, eh, Paul?

In his day Heifetz recorded the best Sibeliusvc. Kremer's is not a fvaorite of mine. The one that really does it for me is the Oistrakh/Rozhdestvensky.
btw Kremer is quite an exceptional violinist. If we take David Oistrakh out of the playing fieild, and also exclude Kremer's recording of the Berg, I find he's the greatest violinist in terms of range of repertoire and skill.

jserraglio · Post by **jserraglio** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:43 pm

I have experienced psychomachia too, but not in the terms set out here. My Bad Angel tells me to listen to Sibelius and my Good Angel agrees with her.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:28 pm

jserraglio wrote:I have experienced psychomachia too, but not in the terms set out here. My Bad Angel tells me to listen to Sibelius and my Good Angel agrees with her.

Well, Sibelius is one I've had a few problems with too. I came around to the violin concerto a long time ago, but I've never listened to all the symhonies and really only know that I don't like the seventh (which I've heard several times), so there's work to be done here. And I consider something as commonplace as Finlandia a weak work with that endless repeatd motive before you get to the famous tune. But I didn't get any help with Sibelius from my formal education, where he was not even mentioned (though I guess I knew who he was at least).

Saint-Seans is another of those on-my-own deals. I've come around to him as well, because even if he's not Brahms, he's usually pretty darn good and very entertaining. (One of my college professors once said that if only Bizet had lived longer, Saint-Seans would have been completely prevented.)

I admit there's an element of laziness, perhaps. Most of the composers at the top of my list, and they're the usual suspects, can be trusted and don't have to have every work personally vetted for me to know I will like it. And what relatively weak work they produced (some early organ works of Bach for instance) is easily identified. Some of these others make you work like a galley slave trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, and it is not the case that reached a point in their career when they still weren't capable of writing clunkers.

And you know, I get no help from anyone else in that situation, the way I got it in the past. If I asked here what is strong Sibelius and what is weak Sibelius, I would 20 different opinions, and half of them would be "there is no weak Sibelius." I have to rely strictly on myself.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:05 pm

jbuck919 wrote:If I asked here what is strong Sibelius and what is weak Sibelius, I would 20 different opinions, and half of them would be "there is no weak Sibelius."

I omitted the Seventh Symphony only because you specifically cannot endure it

jserraglio · Post by **jserraglio** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:07 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
jserraglio wrote:I have experienced psychomachia too, but not in the terms set out here. My Bad Angel tells me to listen to Sibelius and my Good Angel agrees with her.
Well, Sibelius is one I've had a few problems with too ....

Sorry, I meant to suggest that I admire Sibelius' music.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:49 pm

karlhenning wrote:We're all individuals, Dave!

Karl I'm glad you are accepting the individual point of view. Heck if the composers of the 20th century didn't become individuals they'd all be doing what Brahms and gang did, compose on beethoven's model.
can you imagine a world with only music on a theme of Beethoven.
Dvorak is the worst case of all. He only plagerized from Beethoven, at least brahms attempted to improve on Beethoven. Schumann and Schubert were not sure who to follow so they took something from Beethoven and aliitle from Mozart.
Tchaikovsky and Sibelius figured 'heck if it worked for Beethoven, I'll just follow his path to success". And they threw in a bit of their countries folk tunes to spice things up, a few lovely melodies to catch the ladies ears.

I don't wish to come across as anarchist, but lets move on shall we.
Sheesh. Be an individual, don't follow your dads and granddads favorites. Open your mind to the world in 2006. Stop living like its 1926, from reading some of your posts.
What is it that makes Tchaikovsky superior to a few modern compoers?

david johnson · Post by **david johnson** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:48 am

'Dvorak is the worst case of all. He only plagerized from Beethoven,'

i'll have to czech that out. mr d does not bring mr b to mind.

dj

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:49 pm

paulb wrote:
karlhenning wrote:We're all individuals, Dave! 8)
Karl I'm glad you are accepting the individual point of view.

Well, Paul, the weird thing is that you seem to imagine this is something new, you seem to imagine that the fact that I consider your opinion ill-formed and prejudicial is somehow some kind of "siding with consensus and denying the individual." That is another instance of banana oil from your corner, Paul.

It all boils down to this, Paul: not all "opinions" are created equal.

Dvorak is the worst case of all. He only plagerized from Beethoven

Ye gods, another howler from Baton Rouge!

Paul, this remark betrays absolute ignorance of both Beethoven and Dvorak.

And you're going to tell me that you've at least listened to some Beethoven. Well, again, Paul, the fact that (say) The Whining Harp has "listened" to some Elliott Carter somehow does not remedy his ignorance of Carter. Reflect on this, Paul; reflect well.

Cheers,
~Karl

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:48 pm

Oh I see you'll now concede to to respect the individual's voice. But in someway my opinion is "ignorance and ill-informed"
Got it. Should I bow as you pass?
Hopefully as in our differences in musical taste , our paths may keep separate.
I realize now that the past must remain as sacred and never unfairly critqued, "may its glory live forever". Tchaikovsky will never pass away.
Regardless of what you and the establishment want to remain as the 'ageless standards", we know that time and history tells its own story. How the future of classical music works itself out among the group and the individual will have to be accepted. How , in what manner and when will Schnittke and Pettersson makes its way into the classical world I'm not sure. This transition of acceptance may never occur in my lifetime.
This lack of recognition of these 2 important masters of this century may be just a reflection of the group mind that does not like change.

But really whats important to me is that there were 2 composers named Schnittke and Pettersson, who produced music that is extremely important to my life. And that at least a few labels decided to commit this music to record, and that i get to hear this in my home on a splendid stereo.
No one can take this away or prevent me from hearing these voices.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:58 pm

IOW thank god there is music after Tachaikovsky and Sibelius.
But just stay with what you know.
The group loves to shut up the individual. Socrates and the Christ were 2 such individual voices surpressed by the group. . Carl Jung still has no voice in the psychotherapy field. Most likely never will.
I never give place to a hope that Pettersson will be heard outside a few german concert halls where he has a slight acceptance.
Sweden still knows nothing of Pettersson.
What does the bible say "A prophet is accepted in all , except his own country".

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:31 pm

karlhenning wrote:
And you're going to tell me that you've at least listened to some Beethoven. Well, again, Paul, the fact that (say) The Whining Harp has "listened" to some Elliott Carter somehow does not remedy his ignorance of Carter. Reflect on this, Paul; reflect well.

Karl Pink harp is a special case. As we all know how infatuated he was with Debussy, or particularily the opera. Also some baroque composer can't recall the name, he was quite entranced with.
I do not believe I've been unfair in my listenings over the past 20 yrs.
I've had no less than 6+ recordings of the Sibelius syms and even the 2 Karjanus/London SO from 1932 i believe.
Not sure how you can bring up my case of development growth along side Pionk Harp's as being in that same mindset.
We all have to listen to our inner voice. After giving a fair and unprejudiced listen to a broad range of composers, represented from the past 300 yrs, I know what calls me with beauty, and also by contrast what annoys me, fails to excite and even gets on my nerves.

DavidRoss · Post by **DavidRoss** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:07 am

An "inner voice" not informed by the considered opinions of its predecessors and peers is not enlightened but narcissistic and infantile.

jserraglio · Post by **jserraglio** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:59 am

Yes, the "inner voice" being touted here is starting to sound more like the outbursts of the "inner child."

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:02 am

DavidRoss wrote:An "inner voice" not informed by the considered opinions of its predecessors and peers is not enlightened but narcissistic and infantile.

You would certainly have a case if the concern was something I created. Obviously we are talking about Pettersson and Schnittke.
Look no amount of time trying to convince you guys of the merits and values of these two 20 th century composers, as weighed against their predecessors.
I've seen enough of this world to realize there is some governing laws of fate, that are choices have less to do with individual decisions governed by freedom.
And that there are always the few who have the power to break with old traditions and thereby discovers their own individual destiny, IOW they part with fate.
Fate is the smothering of the individual, destiny is the fulfillment of the individual.
Sibelius offers lovely melodies , nice textures, polished solos, a few charged climax's, which was fine in my younger days. Someone said Sibelius syms to them are like unto "running across a few oasis' among alot of desert". I have to agree with this.
In sharp contrast Pettersson is a powerful voice that speaks a spiritual message from frist chords to last.
The contrast in these 2 presentations of music is so great, I feel absoluetly no need nor desire to listen to the Sibelius syms.

David let me ask you, have you actually heard a Pettersson sym?

jserraglio · Post by **jserraglio** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:11 am

paulb wrote:Look no amount of time trying to convince you guys of the merits and values of these two 20 th century composers . . . .

Frankly, it's this hectoring tone that I find offputting. Far from convincing me of anything, it's having just the opposite effect--I'm starting to wonder if I'm wrong for liking the music of Pettersson and Schnittke.

All you really need to do is mention a composer like Pettersson to me. I had heard only the Seventh (Dorati) before you joined and posted your first Pettersson "challenge." I immediately borrowed every Pettersson disk available from every Ohio library that was lending them out and listened to them all. I liked most of what I heard. Ive always liked Schnittke tho I dont always "get" a lot of what I hear.

No need to browbeat us, Ive learned a ton of stuff from the open-minded, generous and tolerant folks who share their reactions here. I admire the passion you have for these composers but I think you'll attract more bees with honey, as the musty saying goes.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:46 am

jserraglio wrote:Yes, the "inner voice" being touted here is starting to sound more like the outbursts of the "inner child."

In all the great myths from indians of the new world to the egyptians to the early greeks, there has never been a more important mythologem as the birth of the divine child. This world wide theme of the birth of the divine child always has certain motifs. Most importantly the birth has dragons, monsters, demons who wish to destroy the child, to swallow the child, just as he is born. But miraclously the child is saved by higher powers.
We should always remember those composers who chose to break new paths and not be swallowed by tradition, "the establishment".
In this sense Debussy was a true hero breaking new ground.
Pettersson and Schnittke also share in this journey of the hero. Giving voice to something beyond the grasp of our everyday consciousness. Both speak to my inner child, giving the spirit much more than "the traditions'.

jserraglio · Post by **jserraglio** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:52 am

paulb wrote:Pettersson and Schnittke also share in this journey of the hero.

Paul, you're preaching to the choir here. You've already influenced those who wish to be influenced (me, for instance). Back off, already. You are only doing the composers you love a disservice by pressing the attack.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:58 am

js i've been told this before from many others. Seems they argue by my promoting and expressing such deep feelings about these 2 masters, it may be counter productive.
I say if the music is for them, they'll discover it. Likewise if not for them, they'll never find it.
We engage ourselves with thing sthat are meant for us, whats not for us we'll never encounter. The old "seek and ye will find".I've been searching since 1980 and I've found. I've found.
Besides if what I'm saying does in fact "scare off' potential fans, then maybe the music was not for them in the first place.
The old Zen masters had students comming to their gates looking for enlightenment. These masters knew many of these satori-wanna-bees were not near ready for true enlightenment.
So after days of pestering the master by banging on his door at all hours, he finally cracks the door where upon the seeker places his foot inside and the amster slams shut the gate, and breaks the foot, the student at this point achieves enlightenment. As the master knew this is what it would take.

jserraglio · Post by **jserraglio** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:05 am

paulb wrote:The old Zen masters had students comming to their gates looking for enlightenment. These masters knew many of these satori-wanna-bees were not near ready for true enlightenment.

Surely, you are not implying that you are an old Zen master. I gathered you were impatient with old people and their "worn and tried" traditions.

paulb wrote:js i've been told this before from many others. Seems they argue by my promoting and expressing such deep feelings about these 2 masters, it may be counter productive . . . .

Well, maybe you ought to listen to them. The fact that you hear it a lot might be b/c they're saying something you need to pay attention to.

But I'll let you have the final word on this matter, if you choose to respond, that is.

Dalibor · Post by **Dalibor** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:19 pm

paulb I like that you have opinion and that you go with it

What I don't like is what I feel is the source of your opions. I think you are listening to too much music - a professional listener maybe? Or an active musician? In this second case it is unavoidable deformation - but whatever, in order to see well, you must not stand too close.

You are convinced that you understand music better and better as you mature as a listener. This can be true in some cases and in certain aspects, but overall you actually understand less and less as you age... sad but true. This world is by big part made for virgins only.

I also don't understand why do you expect things to stay forever interesting. Why you stop appreciating something that is not appealing to you anymore? Say, I liked Grieg some time ago and don't listen to him anymore because he bores me stiff - but my opinion on him has not gone for an inch down. I remember what he gave to me

Finaly, about musicians you seem to preffer... There is a saying: "Some musicians ate music. What we hear is burping". "Ate music" means they were dealing too much with it. A composer gets bored of music and starts producing anti-music, than he calls music. Your Eliot Carter is an example. For him, it was vulgare to realy like a piece.
You say Sibelius symphs don't have appealing overall structure. So what? Overall perfection is a dream of any composer, but great moments are what makes you a great composer. "Only an excess of strenght is a proof of strenght", as Nietzsche said

Dalibor · Post by **Dalibor** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:33 pm

An answer on the topic: when I am aware of someones reputation (collective opinion), I seek to confirm it through personal expirience. If my expirience doesn't match with collective opinion, I have to decide weather I just don't get it, or the collective opinion is false. I can't tell exactly how I decide this... I just get the impression with time.

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