Schnittke's 2nd, as told by Nyugen

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paulb
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Schnittke's 2nd, as told by Nyugen

Post by paulb » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:50 pm

Everyone should go to the listening thread and see what Nguyen just wrote on his initial experience of Alfred Schnittke's 2nd sym.

This is what I have been trying to express about Schnittke in the past few months. Ideas not successfully expressed I agree, as my thoughts are told in such jumbled and distorted drivelish and ranting mannerisms.

But hey here is Nguyen giving his experience in a clear presentation.
Can I be wrong about Schnittke?
Just what is it about this man's music that would bringa classicphile to say such worded phrases?

Here my friends is a undisputed example of the power and profoundness of Scnittke's music.

"He who has ears will hear, the others will not enter".
Feel free to chose to remain in your stubborness. This is the way of history.
Not every believer is a true believer. Many are called , few are chosen.
Many are the tourch bearers on the way down the hill towards the Elysian mystery ceremonies, few the initiates.

Your disbelief only proves the rule of history.
So it shall be until the comming of Jesus.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

Opus132
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:42 am

Post by Opus132 » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:57 pm

Schnittke is actually one of the most popular contemporary composers. He is the one with the highest rate of selling recordings among the composers of the second half of the century, if i'm not mistaken. You are sort of preaching to the choir here.

paulb
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:02 pm

Wow Opus, another admirer of Schnittke on the board.
There's so much to discuss on Schnittke's works.
Hope we can begin a journey into his music.
I believe Nyugen's experience is what awaits any who have the capacity to hear Schnittke's soundworld.
I can understand how the romantics may be put off by his music. But to those who seek something that addresses the issues facing our world, the sufferings all around us, the perplexing ?no anser" solutions, Schnittke allows us to a means to see this reality expressed in music.
Which is how I arrive at the symbol that his music is A "voice of god". Not THE voice, but certainly a voice that speaks spiritual things.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

Sergeant Rock
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:00 am
Location: Wine Country, Germany

Post by Sergeant Rock » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:35 pm

paulb wrote: I believe Nyugen's experience is what awaits any who have the capacity to hear Schnittke's soundworld.
I can understand how the romantics may be put off by his music. But to those who seek something that addresses the issues facing our world, the sufferings all around us, the perplexing ?no anser" solutions, Schnittke allows us to a means to see this reality expressed in music.
Which is how I arrive at the symbol that his music is A "voice of god".
I hate to rain on your parade, Paul, but Nyugen didn't express anything like that experience. He said:

"Well, the second Symphony was my first attempt at listening to Schnittke. It was a completely new experience, unlike anything I've every heard. It completely shattered my perceptions of music and opened my ears and mind to new possibilities. So it's fairly obvious that I enjoyed it, but I was at times lost and overwhelmed. The texture is amazing and the effect it had on my emotions was profound. Listening to Schnittke for the first time was an interesting, enjoyable experience."

He heard an "interesting, enjoyable experience"...not "the voice of god."

I wouldn't even bother to answer this message if I didn't feel a need to counter your attack on "Romantics." I love Romantic music, but I also love Schnittke and Pettersson as you know (or should know from our conversations at the Gramophone forum). It's not impossible to love both 19th century music and 20th century. And I say to you again, knowing both Pettersson and Schnittke far longer than you have, they are no more "spiritual" and probably less so, than Romantics like Liszt and Bruckner, or Classicists like Haydn (men who were deeply religious).

You refuse to acknowledge that, and refuse to acknowledge the profound spiritual elements in Romantic music. I don't understand that...no one I've ever seen you converse with has understood your obstinancy to accept that truth.

But please continue your quest: both Pettersson and Schnittke can use advocacy.

Sarge
"My unpretending love's the B flat major by the old Budapest done"---John Berryman, Beethoven Triumphant

paulb
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:17 pm

Sergeant Rock wrote:
paulb wrote: I believe Nyugen's experience is what awaits any who have the capacity to hear Schnittke's soundworld.
I can understand how the romantics may be put off by his music. But to those who seek something that addresses the issues facing our world, the sufferings all around us, the perplexing ?no anser" solutions, Schnittke allows us to a means to see this reality expressed in music.
Which is how I arrive at the symbol that his music is A "voice of god".
I hate to rain on your parade, Paul, but Nyugen didn't express anything like that experience. He said:

"Well, the second Symphony was my first attempt at listening to Schnittke. It was a completely new experience, unlike anything I've every heard. It completely shattered my perceptions of music and opened my ears and mind to new possibilities. So it's fairly obvious that I enjoyed it, but I was at times lost and overwhelmed. The texture is amazing and the effect it had on my emotions was profound. Listening to Schnittke for the first time was an interesting, enjoyable experience."

He heard an "interesting, enjoyable experience"...not "the voice of god."

I wouldn't even bother to answer this message if I didn't feel a need to counter your attack on "Romantics." I love Romantic music, but I also love Schnittke and Pettersson as you know (or should know from our conversations at the Gramophone forum). It's not impossible to love both 19th century music and 20th century. And I say to you again, knowing both Pettersson and Schnittke far longer than you have, they are no more "spiritual" and probably less so, than Romantics like Liszt and Bruckner, or Classicists like Haydn (men who were deeply religious).

You refuse to acknowledge that, and refuse to acknowledge the profound spiritual elements in Romantic music. I don't understand that...no one I've ever seen you converse with has understood your obstinancy to accept that truth.

But please continue your quest: both Pettersson and Schnittke can use advocacy.

Sarge

Ahh, of course the word 'god" is not utilized in Nyugen's declaration of his moving experience.
But as we know there are countless names for god throughout the world. When the amazonian indians are in conversation amongst themselves about god, they may use dozens of names for god. As they know god not to be limited to any one specific term such as "god', but in fact god is "a experience". All their experiences that they find a mystery fall under the ideation that we call "god".

So obviously none of us know anything concerning Nyugen's spirituality, nor if he is in fact atheist.
I'm assuming from his expression he does adhere to some religious belief, which may not need to christian or any other world religion, yet he may claim to have faith.

Now examine his words. Clearly the words express something that goes beyond his everday normal consciousness, and also beyond anything he's ever experienced in music.

Grant it, we do not know the extent of his musical experience, that is which other composers he;'s heard.

But I surmise to venture the idea he does have a good deal of classical music within his experience, and now BEHOLD! , Schnittke breaks his "classical music experience-world"
"profound", 'overwhelmed", "opened my mind and ears to new possibilities"

This exactly describes the emotional state of anyone who has had a religious experience. Not necessarily within the context of a church, as is most folks initial religious experience.

In terms of early christian faith, Nyugen has been 'born anew".
Something within him has been affected, and now he may find his musical experiences will be evolving in the future.

This is what I mean with the term "voice of god".
He's a different man, even if so slightly or unawares, after hearing the Schnittke 2nd, than the man he "WAS" before the Schnittke 2nd experience.

Obviously he does not come with "hey guys I just heard the voice of god". Thats a lunatic way of expressing a moving experience in classical.
Yet we stand in awe with ceratin of our music, and to varying degrees the more we are affected, the more the music can be said to be "a voice of god".

I guess the greeks called it 'the muses". Same idea.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

paulb
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:38 pm

Sergeant Rock wrote: It's not impossible to love both 19th century music and 20th century. And I say to you again, knowing both Pettersson and Schnittke far longer than you have, they are no more "spiritual" and probably less so, than Romantics like Liszt and Bruckner, or Classicists like Haydn (men who were deeply religious).

You refuse to acknowledge that, and refuse to acknowledge the profound spiritual elements in Romantic music. I don't understand that...no one I've ever seen you converse with has understood your obstinancy to accept that truth.

But please continue your quest: both Pettersson and Schnittke can use advocacy.

Sarge

1) yes it is a possibility to be moved as much by the romantics as S and P. But its also possible that most romantic music can block or hinder the emotive effects of S and P. As is my case.

2) : moreso spiritual than S and P". hummm again each of us are different, few of the romatics carry any spiritaul value for me, some Wagner, Grieg, thats about it.
In contrast, Schnittke and pettersson carry the most spiritual content of any composer.
3) "the truth" I need to come to as others know it. Won't work for me. I've never "had a fondness' (put it nicely) for the romantics in 25 yrs, and "most likely" never will.

4) Schnittke and Pettersson will be discovered by each person whose destiny it is to hear and experience their music.
IOW if its your fate to know Pettersson and Schnittke, it will happen, in its own way, its own time.
"the stars of thy own fate lie within thy own breast" says the old wise grrek philosopher

There's absoluetly nothing in my power to change the course of anyone's destiny.
No planting a seed idea here. Its either within you, or not.
Does one have to do ones part, and have a seeking spirit? Obviously yes. If i was not seeking these 2 composers, I've never have found them. But both came to me in their own time, when I was ready to hear.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

J Nguyen
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Orange County

Post by J Nguyen » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:39 am

Sorry to give you the wrong idea, I tend to utilize rather dramatic diction sometimes. The effect that Schnittke's Second Symphony had on me wasn't as profound as you believe it to be. However, it did change me. It was a completely new experience that was stylistically and compositionally unlike anything I heard. What I meant by it opened my eyes to new possibilities was that it showed me new ideas and a style I never heard before. It really did change my perception of music though - at the very least it broaden my perception of music. The St. Florian affected me emotionally because while I was listening to it I was completely drawn into it. Again, I apologize for giving you the wrong idea.

paulb
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Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:16 am

Nyugen, I understand what you are saying. That I have blown things out of proportion. OK, so you did not have a "revelation' in the sense of a "born again experience". That you are saying "gee its not really that big a deal what happened to me in that symphony".
I will accept this "compromise" from you.

I am only now using your words as some idae I am trying to get across. Its my belief that what you wrote has some significance in all religious experiences. I'm extracting , extrapolating, ,imagining, what you wrote and bringing this into relief as a prime example of what a believer in any religion extresses at the time of his revelation, his conversion to some deeper essence of his faith.

OK, so you "feel" this is not in your case. How do you know? This 2nd sym experience is only the first experience you've had in Schnittke.
What else may yet await you, is up to your inquisitveness, your searching for more of this profoundness.
Maybe you feel at this time, the 2nd is just enough, and to proceed further would not be best.
I agree. Hang with the 2nd sym, give it another lsiten in a few weeks, this will give the experience deeper roots and prepare you for further journey into this revelatory, explosive music.

Keep us all up to date on your progress into Schnittke's soundworld. I will not make suggestions, unless you request.
I have heard almost everything he wrote. I just sold off the only release of his Psalms Of Repentance, due to the fact its not the quality that meets the demands of the work.
A amazon reviewer has heard the work live and made a comment that the recording does in fact limit the emotional value of the work, not even close I believe he said.
We all yet await a russian chorus to record the work.
Hopefully we will see a recording this year. Polyansky is the man to fulfill the requirements of this work.

Still there is much Schnittke out there for you to discover.

Peace
Brother Paul
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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