An Evil Act Not to Be Forgotten

Locked
Ralph
Dittersdorf Specialist & CMG NY Host
Posts: 20996
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Paradise on Earth, New York, NY

An Evil Act Not to Be Forgotten

Post by Ralph » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:12 am

Join in a day of mourning and remembrance for King Louis XVI, murdered on this date in 1793. :(
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26867
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:18 am

Now I happen to agree with Ralph that this was a crime, but not too long ago the same topic was broached with regard to the equally if not more brutal and gratuitous murders of the Romanovs, and there were people who posted that they got what they deserved. So let's see how this one develops. :roll:

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Ralph
Dittersdorf Specialist & CMG NY Host
Posts: 20996
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Paradise on Earth, New York, NY

Post by Ralph » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:41 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Now I happen to agree with Ralph that this was a crime, but not too long ago the same topic was broached with regard to the equally if not more brutal and gratuitous murders of the Romanovs, and there were people who posted that they got what they deserved. So let's see how this one develops. :roll:
*****

The killing of the Romanovs was certainly brutal but not "gratuitous" as a rational motive for wiping out the whole royal family existed. So it was in the time of the Romans too.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26867
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:58 pm

Ralph wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Now I happen to agree with Ralph that this was a crime, but not too long ago the same topic was broached with regard to the equally if not more brutal and gratuitous murders of the Romanovs, and there were people who posted that they got what they deserved. So let's see how this one develops. :roll:
*****

The killing of the Romanovs was certainly brutal but not "gratuitous" as a rational motive for wiping out the whole royal family existed. So it was in the time of the Romans too.
"Brutal but not gratuitous" strikes me as the way you, based on previous posts, would describe the bombing of Dresden and the use of the Bomb in Japan. I don't disagree with you on those positions, but perhaps we are having a semantic difficulty with the word "gratuitous."

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Ralph
Dittersdorf Specialist & CMG NY Host
Posts: 20996
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Paradise on Earth, New York, NY

Post by Ralph » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:59 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Ralph wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Now I happen to agree with Ralph that this was a crime, but not too long ago the same topic was broached with regard to the equally if not more brutal and gratuitous murders of the Romanovs, and there were people who posted that they got what they deserved. So let's see how this one develops. :roll:
*****

The killing of the Romanovs was certainly brutal but not "gratuitous" as a rational motive for wiping out the whole royal family existed. So it was in the time of the Romans too.
"Brutal but not gratuitous" strikes me as the way you, based on previous posts, would describe the bombing of Dresden and the use of the Bomb in Japan. I don't disagree with you on those positions, but perhaps we are having a semantic difficulty with the word "gratuitous."
*****

Perhaps. All warfare is brutal by definition. GEN Sherman had it right. And I have no problem with either Dresden or Hiroshima.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

burnitdown
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:15 am
Contact:

Post by burnitdown » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:15 am

Note that both France and Russia lag behind their neighbors in average IQ thanks to their vengeance against the upper layers of society.

Conservativemaestro
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:46 pm
Location: Ventura, California

Post by Conservativemaestro » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:56 am

burnitdown wrote:Note that both France and Russia lag behind their neighbors in average IQ thanks to their vengeance against the upper layers of society.
Very true. Furthermore, from an economical standpoint - it is these upper tiers of society which make the economy work. It is the corporations that create jobs, and to whom brings us our products. This socialist mentality of the liberal taxing the corporations on a higher scale is a misguided belief, because really what happens in this situation is that the middle class, and other core consumers are the ones hurt due to the price gauge these corporations make, as a result of the higher taxation. Social equality is one of the biggest farces and a ridiculous cultural war to wage, it always fails. Take the Romanov example presented earlier, Russia was in a better state in imperial times as opposed to what later came after and during the revolution. I might add also since this is a musical forum - the better music written, and the better musicians existed in Russia before the revolution - after which time music was composed in an often militaristic fashion, instrumentalists like Oistrakh and Gilels played with less individualism compared to the likes of Heifetz, or Vladimir Horowitz.

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26867
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:13 am

Conservativemaestro wrote:
burnitdown wrote:Note that both France and Russia lag behind their neighbors in average IQ thanks to their vengeance against the upper layers of society.
Very true.
Now wait a minute (assuming that you two are being serious). It is true that Russia suffered severely from the purging of its intelligentsia. The other country I would cite in that regard is Germany. France tended not to purge its intellectuals and some of the great figures of the Engligtenment (in all fields) are Frenchmen who survived revolutionism.

That is not, however, my main point. You can purge a tiny minority of especially valuable people until the well runs dry, and you won't affect the average IQ of a large nation. That's plain statistics. IQ is a shaky concept to begin with, though if it is defined as measurable intelligence I think it still has meaning, and I am aware of the concept of a non-resistant statistic (a few extreme values change the average), but I have to challenge any assumption that "average national intelligence" can be meaningfully affected by knocking out a few at the top. The premise of such an assumption must be that the hereditary peasantry and general hoi polloi, whatever words you choose to label them, is inherently dumber than the privileged few.
I might add also since this is a musical forum - the better music written, and the better musicians existed in Russia before the revolution - after which time music was composed in an often militaristic fashion, instrumentalists like Oistrakh and Gilels played with less individualism compared to the likes of Heifetz, or Vladimir Horowitz.
The better music in general was written everywhere before 1920, and for inherent artistic reasons that might have been influenced by WW I, but were more built into the nature of the art than anything else. Actually, Russia is a bit of an exception, as a case can be made that Shostakovich and Prokoviev are as fine Russian composers as there ever were, and Stravinsky the master of them all. But your comparison of the performers is simply preposterous.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

eugeniov
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:03 pm
Location: Santiago de Compostela (Spain)

"And I have no problem with either Dresden or Hiroshima

Post by eugeniov » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:05 pm

I can't believe I'm reading this. Dresden, Hiroshima, Gernika... those would be judged as crime against humanity by today's standards. Those were vicious and truly evil acts that have no justification whatsoever. Do you truly believe that those people really deserved that?

I sincerely hope this thread is just a bad taste joke.

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.

- Ernest Hemingway

Ralph
Dittersdorf Specialist & CMG NY Host
Posts: 20996
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Paradise on Earth, New York, NY

Re: "And I have no problem with either Dresden or Hiros

Post by Ralph » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:11 pm

eugeniov wrote:I can't believe I'm reading this. Dresden, Hiroshima, Gernika... those would be judged as crime against humanity by today's standards. Those were vicious and truly evil acts that have no justification whatsoever. Do you truly believe that those people really deserved that?

I sincerely hope this thread is just a bad taste joke.

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.

- Ernest Hemingway
*****

I do not consider war to destroy Nazism and halt genocide to be a crime. Nor is self-defense.

The firebombing of Dresden directly affected German logistics and prevented the shipment of hundreds of Jews to extermination camps. Read Taylor's "Dresden" for a full account.

The use of the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved untold American AND Japanese lives if an invasion was necessary to end the war.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

Conservativemaestro
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:46 pm
Location: Ventura, California

Re: "And I have no problem with either Dresden or Hiros

Post by Conservativemaestro » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:11 pm

eugeniov wrote:I can't believe I'm reading this. Dresden, Hiroshima, Gernika... those would be judged as crime against humanity by today's standards. Those were vicious and truly evil acts that have no justification whatsoever. Do you truly believe that those people really deserved that?

I sincerely hope this thread is just a bad taste joke.

Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.

- Ernest Hemingway
So let me get this straight, according to you, it was okay for Pearl Harbor to be attacked by Japanese fighter planes unannounced and that there should not have been any such repercussions faced after the attack? You forgot to mention the US boats and vessels sunken by Nazi Germany before the US entered into the war, and you failed to mention how it was the US that really rescued the world from a very dangerous avalanche of events that transpired in a pacifist European society which let the Nazis overtake them without a fight for quite some time.
Keith

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9804
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Post by karlhenning » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:17 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Now I happen to agree with Ralph that this was a crime, but not too long ago the same topic was broached with regard to the equally if not more brutal and gratuitous murders of the Romanovs, and there were people who posted that they got what they deserved.
Well, I'm glad I missed that . . . .
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

eugeniov
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:03 pm
Location: Santiago de Compostela (Spain)

Post by eugeniov » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:29 pm

Oh god! of course Pearl Harbor was wrong too! Do I have to put down a list of all the miserable actions in history to make my point? Pearl Harbor was a military base though.

Sorry, I can't see bombing civilians as a military target, no matter what. Hardly with today's technology and the "surgical" actions, even less with carpet bombing or nuclear weapons.

Dresden was plain vengance, Hiroshima was weapon testing and showing off in front of the russians, none were "necessary".

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:36 pm

We unfortunately find ourselves in our current situation in part because our leaders bow to pressure from people who think like that.

When you fight people who observe no limitations when it comes to murdering the innocent and who place their weapons systems and in some cases themselves among civillian populations, failing to go after them for fear of harming the innocent is playing right into their hands; not to mention plain silly.

We didn't ask for total war in WWII. Our enemies wanted that. And they got it. To criticize something like the bombing of civiliians in a vacuum, as if the reason behind the bombing or what would happen if the bombing isn't done don't matter is lunacy. That kind of mindset contributed to western Europe needing to be bailed out in the first place.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:50 pm

Hiroshima was weapon testing and showing off in front of the russians, none were "necessary".
Eugeniov Welcome aboard!
FYI The Lunatic Asylum is down the hall to the right.
Seriously, there are many here who are more dovish than hawkish, more inclined to talk than to shoot, but to out and out deny the rationale/urgency/necessity for ending WW II is to hold up a sign that reads “I am beyond reason”

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:55 pm

Ted wrote: ... but to out and out deny the rationale/urgency/necessity for ending WW II is to hold up a sign that reads “I am beyond reason”
Well if you're going to put it that way, Ted, I had that same thought after reading a few things you've said in recent months :wink: . We can start with saying it's okay for Clinton to send a carrier force to a trouble spot as a show of strength, but not for Bush to do the same thing because one is an idiot and one isn't.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:14 pm

Ted wrote:
... but to out and out deny the rationale/urgency/necessity for ending WW II is to hold up a sign that reads “I am beyond reason”
Mr Z
That statement is 180 degrees away from any, I repeat any analogy to your hero :roll: GWB’s mendacious bumbling in Iraq
WMD’s! Humbug!

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:15 pm

Ted wrote:
Ted wrote:
... but to out and out deny the rationale/urgency/necessity for ending WW II is to hold up a sign that reads “I am beyond reason”
Mr Z
That statement is 180 degrees away from any, I repeat any analogy to your hero :roll: GWB’s mendacious bumbling in Iraq
WMD’s! Humbug!
Maybe in terms of topic, but not in terms of holding up a sign and saying, "I'm beyond reason."
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:35 pm

but not in terms of holding up a sign and saying, "I'm beyond reason."
That’s quite nice imagery if I do say so myself
Hey, I’m not beyond reason when it comes to Iraq, you are as well evinced by your rationale for being there BTW well over a 100 killed today—12 US soldiers yesterday

eugeniov
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:03 pm
Location: Santiago de Compostela (Spain)

Post by eugeniov » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:42 pm

Hummmm seems like my english is worse than I thought... I never said WWII didn't have to be put to an end, I just disagree with the means used.

I think killing innocent civilians is not the way to beat evil. Allowing that wouldn't make you any different from the bad guys.

Ralph
Dittersdorf Specialist & CMG NY Host
Posts: 20996
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Paradise on Earth, New York, NY

Post by Ralph » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:44 pm

eugeniov wrote:Oh god! of course Pearl Harbor was wrong too! Do I have to put down a list of all the miserable actions in history to make my point? Pearl Harbor was a military base though.

Sorry, I can't see bombing civilians as a military target, no matter what. Hardly with today's technology and the "surgical" actions, even less with carpet bombing or nuclear weapons.

Dresden was plain vengance, Hiroshima was weapon testing and showing off in front of the russians, none were "necessary".
*****

You simply don't know facts. Dresden was a major industrial city and a logistical base for supporting the German forces in Russia. A significant portion of the population was engaged in war work and Jews in transit to concentration camps went through the Dresden rail artery which was destroyed.

In Japan, war industry was ever more decentralized than in Europe. The purpose of bombing those cities was to destroy war-making potential and to force a surrender without invasion.

While loss of life is tragic in warfare, the Allied tactics ended the war sooner than a less rigorous campaign would have. And, ultimately, the life of an aggressor nation's civilian is worth much less than that of one of our own people.

Modern conflict is different from WWII and Precision Guided Munitions are the proper approach when possible.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:44 pm

eugeniov wrote:Hummmm seems like my english is worse than I thought... I never said WWII didn't have to be put to an end, I just disagree with the means used.

I think killing innocent civilians is not the way to beat evil. Allowing that wouldn't make you any different from the bad guys.
Your clear mistake, to many of us, is in thinking that we could have won World War II without killing many, many civillians.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:47 pm

Ralph wrote:
Modern conflict is different from WWII and Precision Guided Munitions are the proper approach when possible.
Yes, when possible. But as I pointed out earlier, many of our current enemies purposely put their military operations and often themselves right in the middle of heavily populated areas specifically to play on our humanitarian instincts. We play into their hands by letting those instincts get in the way of what has to be done, thereby extending conflicts and causing even more loss of life in the long run.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

eugeniov
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:03 pm
Location: Santiago de Compostela (Spain)

:)

Post by eugeniov » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:48 pm

To Barry Z:

"... In matters of war we undermine presidential credibility at our nation's peril."
-- Joe Lieberman

“A man who says that no patriot should attack the war until it is over...is saying no good son should warn his mother of a cliff until she has fallen.”

-- G. K. Chesterton

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:49 pm

Ted wrote:
but not in terms of holding up a sign and saying, "I'm beyond reason."
That’s quite nice imagery if I do say so myself
Hey, I’m not beyond reason when it comes to Iraq, you are as well evinced by your rationale for being there BTW well over a 100 killed today—12 US soldiers yesterday
My "rationale" for us continuing to be there is because I think, based on my reading, that if we leave now, we'll be back in the coming years and we'll be facing a situation that makes the current one look like a picnic, one that may make a day in which 12 US soldiers being killed is a good one; as it was in some of our past wars. We can't all just call the shots based on our never-wrong instinct, ya know.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Re: :)

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:50 pm

eugeniov wrote:To Barry Z:

"... In matters of war we undermine presidential credibility at our nation's peril."
-- Joe Lieberman

“A man who says that no patriot should attack the war until it is over...is saying no good son should warn his mother of a cliff until she has fallen.”

-- G. K. Chesterton
I see you're not very good with analogies either.

Unless the mother is trying to kill herself, she'd obviously want to be warned before she fell. A strong majority of the troops aren't asking for and don't want our disunity. They want a strong, unified front. It helps their mission and doesn't play into the hands of their enemies.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:07 pm

Image[/img]


BZ Wrote:A strong majority of the troops aren't asking for and don't want our disunity. They want a strong, unified front. It helps their mission and doesn't play into the hands of their enemies. :lol: :lol:

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:10 pm

So in your world, Ted, a lack of unity on the home front is helpful to a war effort? Is that sign getting heavy yet? Just as we lost the battle of wills with Vietnam, we're losing it with our enemies in the Middle East today. You're giving a gift to our enemies, whether you're smart enough to realize it or not. Why do you think every government that has been at war virtually throughout history makes an effort to maintain a unified front? For kicks? Are you even American?

The military consistantly votes Republican (by huge margines) because they know most Democrats are like you; you don't take what they do seriously and aren't even willing to show minimal support while they're putting their lives on the line for a mission they believe in.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:31 pm

Bary wrote:
Just as we lost the battle of wills with Vietnam, we're losing it with our enemies in the Middle East today.
Okay Barry, now I’m screaming at you! What the F are you talking about!
What in god’s name was there for us to win in Viet Nam?
We will perpetually loose in Iraq as long as we are there for the reason we are: OIL
How can you be so…..?

eugeniov
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:03 pm
Location: Santiago de Compostela (Spain)

Post by eugeniov » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:38 pm

"I see you're not very good with analogies either"

say that to G. K. Chesterton, who was a hundred times better than any of us here (and not just with metaphors).

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:40 pm

Ted wrote:Bary wrote:
Just as we lost the battle of wills with Vietnam, we're losing it with our enemies in the Middle East today.
Okay Barry, now I’m screaming at you! What the F are you talking about!
What in god’s name was there for us to win in Viet Nam?
We will perpetually loose in Iraq as long as we are there for the reason we are: OIL
How can you be so…..?
Ted,
I know you think I'm incredibly ignorant on these issues, but believe me, it's very mutual. If you don't think stopping the spread of Communism and safeguarding our economy were worthy goals during the Cold War and now,you're even worse off than I thought. For crying out loud, even the North Vietnamese generals have come right out and said we couldn't beat you on the battle field, but we won the battle of wills by outlasting American public opinion. Are you really that dense or do you just never pick up a piece of actual information to base your opinions on?

As for oil, OF COURSE we need to break that habit. It's the only way to make that region less than vital to us. But that isn't happening over night and simply pulling out and leaving the Iranians and Sunni jihadists to have control over so much of the world's energy supplies in the mean time would send western economies into their worse tailspin since the 30s. My God. Do yourself a favor and pick up a book for crying out loud. There is information out there. You really don't have to rely on your less than reliable instinct. For thousands of years, nations have fought to protect their economic well-being and ensure access to resources. And you'd be screaming for us to send the troops back too once our economy collapses and YOUR lifestyle takes a hit along with the rest of the country. "No blood for oil" may look good on a bumper sticker, but it's juvenile and naive beyond belief. Some of the things you say are every bit as naive as thinking we could have won World War II without killing nearly as many civillians.
Last edited by Barry on Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:57 pm

BZ Writes:
If you don't think stopping the spread of Communism and safeguarding our economy were worthy goals during the Cold War and now,you're even worse off than I thought.
Barry
Report to the nearest historical emergency room ASAP
When you start arguing for the biggest military/moral disaster in US History you are in dire need of immediate attention

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:59 pm

As usual, you know more than the people who were actually involved in the events. Right.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:15 pm

I know that I protested the war
I know that Public Opinion ended the war
I know that there’s a wall in Washington with over 50,000 names of Americans who died for absolutely no reason
Seriously Barry, you need to learn, on this topic you sound ridiculously naive and oblivious to history

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/as ... index.html



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/reflect/index.html

http://www.vietnamwar.com/


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/11/

Barry
Posts: 10230
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:22 pm

The problem with Vietnam, Ted, was that we lost, not that we fought. And we lost the same way we're losing now; by putting too many restraints on our troops and by being divided at home. So take a bow, and while you're at it, blow a kiss to the hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese who were murdered, sent to prison or became boat people after we left and our Democratic Congress cut off funding to the south; then blow another one in advance for the even greater number of people who will be adversely affected by cutting and running from the Middle East.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

eugeniov
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:03 pm
Location: Santiago de Compostela (Spain)

Post by eugeniov » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:36 am

Now I see... you just want to justify Dresden as an indirect justification of the Irak mess!! oh you're so mistaken in both!!! and it's so sad.

where are the WMD arsenals? please remind me the links between Sadam and the the terrorist? ... where's Osama, by the way? whasn't HE the guy who organized the show? hummm but he doesn't have the oil, and he is in the middle of nowhere, not helful to control a strategic region like middle east uhmmmm

How can you support that ignorant ex-alcoholic radical Jesus-freak in that crusade? I love your country, and it's a shame. You deserve leaders better than that.

Kevin R
Posts: 1672
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:15 am
Location: MO

Post by Kevin R » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:14 am

Ted wrote:I know that I protested the war
I know that Public Opinion ended the war
I know that there’s a wall in Washington with over 50,000 names of Americans who died for absolutely no reason
Seriously Barry, you need to learn, on this topic you sound ridiculously naive and oblivious to history

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/as ... index.html



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/reflect/index.html

http://www.vietnamwar.com/


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/11/
Ted,

50,000 is an awful number. But what happened when the US left?

-The number of outright executions was about 65,000 (though probably higher)

-We will never know how many died in the "re-education" camps. I've seen totals from 50,000 to 200,000.

-We don't know how many died in the "New Economic Zones." Was it 25,000? 100,000? More?

-Saddest of all would be the 1.6 million Vietnamese who attempted to escape their communist liberators. The number of deaths range anywhere from 250,000 to 600,000.

-And what of the 1.5 to 2 million Cambodians who perished at the hands of the Khmer Rouge?

We can all agree on the tragedy (in many different ways) of the Vietnam War, but certainly we can also agree on what transpired after US forces left.
"Free trade, one of the greatest blessings which a government can confer on a people, is in almost every country unpopular."

-Thomas Macaulay

Kevin R
Posts: 1672
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:15 am
Location: MO

Post by Kevin R » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:27 am

On this point Ron Rosenbaum has the following post which I think is worth reading.


If Iraq is to be compared to Vietnam, how relevant is Cambodia?

Ever since the news of the genocidal scale of mass murder in Cambodia reached the West, I’ve been trying to figure out how to relate it to my previous opposition to the Vietnam War.

At first it was self-exculpatory: No Vietnam War, no Nixon illicit secret bombing/destabilization of Cambodia, thus no Khmer Rouge take-over, thus no genocide. That was my story and I tried sticking to it for a long time.

But it’s more complicated than that isn’t it? Especially if you’re familiar with what’s come to light in the past decades from former Soviet archives about Vietnam. (You have read the Soviet archival documents haven’t you? Otherwise spare me your comments). When 2 or 3 million are murdered, it’s worth examining the causes further, especially in light of current potential parallels.

My opposition to the Vietnam war, developed during my college days was based on the oversimplified premise—which turns out, by most serious accounts, now bolstered by the former Soviet archives—to be false or seriously flawed.

My belief and that of most of the anti-war movement—that the North Vietnamese regime represented an indigenous, nationalist movement expressing the Vietnamese peoples centuries-long struggle for independence from foreign control—was only half-true at best.

There was a germ of truth in it, but more than a germ of foreign control in Hanoi, whose government was in fact a Stalinist puppet state of the Soviet Union (here’s where the diplomatic cables in the former Soviet archives are so important and dispositive). A Stalinist regime in Hanoi, which, as soon as it took over the South, established a gulag system of re-education and punishment camps for all who didn’t toe the line. Hundreds of thousands died in the camps, and hundreds of thousands, maybe more died as “boat people” escaping the unreconstructed Stalinist regime.

Put that in the context of another set of numbers—the 50 million or more murdered, starved, or Gulaged to death by Stalinist police states in the 20th century, and opposition to the war in Vietnam isn’t the moral slam-dunk it once seemed to be.

The Vietnam war, like the current one, was horribly mismanaged, yes. The war was, like this one, productive of horrific number of casualties among innocent civilians, but Vietnam wasn’t all as simple as I thought of it in college. One could still call it the wrong war at the wrong time fought by the wrong tactics, but one can’t portray the “foe” as somehow virtuous.

And Cambodia: the genocide there was as unimaginably horrific as any genocide in that genocidal century. Would that genocide have happened if the U.S. hadn’t so precipitously scurried out (under the aegis of a funding cut), leaving behind one half a nation hosting Stalinist gulags, and a good portion of a neighboring nation, Cambodia, rotting away in mass graves. Was the Cambodian genocide an inevitable consequence of the Vietnam war? Would it have happened however we managed to leave Vietnam? I don’t know, but it’s a question worth thinking about.

The “world community” did nothing to prevent genocide in Cambodia, in Rwanda, nothing to stop Saddam’s mass murder and the ethnic cleansing that bordered on genocide (did you hear his tape recorded cold blooded dismissal of the murder of thousands in the “Chemical Ali” trial?) in Iraq. And of course it’s doing nothing to stop it in Darfur. Whose responsibility will the aftermath of the (I think inevitable) U.S. pullout from Iraq be?

On the eve of the current war when it wasn’t clear to me whether we would actually go to war or not, I wrote, with habitual historical pessimism “war or no war, things are likely to get worse”. And I endorsed John Kerry in 2004 because I thought he would be smarter about the whole deteriorating situation. But things have gotten worse. Perhaps they haven’t for the Kurds, but for most of the rest of Iraq yes, and it’s our responsibility for the “mistakes” however you define them.

But does the fact—that it’s our responsibility for getting into this position (my view of the “surge” plan is the same as my view at the opening of the war: things are likely to get worse)—does that exempt or exculpate us from the responsibility to prevent the possible genocidal—certainly ethnic cleansing—consequences that will follow our withdrawal? Is there any way we can prevent those consequences?

And if not us, then who? The world community? I don’t have the answers, but someone has to ask the question. How do we prevent another Cambodia?

http://ronrosenbaum.pajamasmedia.com/20 ... mbodia.php
"Free trade, one of the greatest blessings which a government can confer on a people, is in almost every country unpopular."

-Thomas Macaulay

burnitdown
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:15 am
Contact:

Post by burnitdown » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:15 pm

jbuck919 wrote:IQ is a shaky concept to begin with, though if it is defined as measurable intelligence I think it still has meaning, and I am aware of the concept of a non-resistant statistic (a few extreme values change the average), but I have to challenge any assumption that "average national intelligence" can be meaningfully affected by knocking out a few at the top.
Depends on how much the average is raised by those few, which if there's a bigger gap would be more influential. I recognize that in general Slavs lag behind Western Europe in IQ, but the French?

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26867
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:09 pm

burnitdown wrote:Depends on how much the average is raised by those few, which if there's a bigger gap would be more influential. I recognize that in general Slavs lag behind Western Europe in IQ, but the French?
In order to recognize something, it has to be established as fact. I am completely unaware of the situation you are reporting, but even if it is true, it is irrelevant. When they teach you statistics, they teach you that there are considerations beyond mathematical statistical significance. A further crucial question to ask is, "Is the difference important"? By usual measures of intelligence, African Americans on average lag behind Euro-Americans by a very tiny amount that is, technically, statistically significant, but is totally unimportant. We are not confident enough (in terms of making its definition technical like the definition of height) in the concept of intelligence in the first place to attribute importance to minute differences between more or less arbitrarily defined groups.

Here is an example (unfortunately one that has practical consequences these days) of the impact of a non-resistant statistic: One student in a small school who has a borderline result on a standardized norm-referenced test drags down the school's average so that the school is identified as deficient and in need of improvement (this happens not once in a while but all the time, especially in small rural schools, and is a dastardly example of politicians not getting basic science or not wishing to get it). I assure you, it is quite impossible for the removal of a relative handful of extreme scores at either end to affect the outcome in any meaningful way if the population involved is in the many millions.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests