Interesting ... CMG's "lurkers"

Post by **Lance** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:34 pm

I've done some investigation and it's quite revealing the activity on this board that you don't see.

For example, one poster who joined this month (October 2006) has offered TWO (2) posts but has had 17,470 VIEWS of other posts!

Another member posted once but had 367 VIEWS, just during the month of October when he/she joined.

Low-numbered posting doesn't mean we at CMG are going unnoticed. I have found many examples where CMG members posted three or four times but have VIEWED topics into the thousands and thousands.

Lurkers: you are probably enjoying reading our subjects very frequently. However, you are ENCOURAGED to participate. Don't feel that you don't have the knowledge or may be inadequate in a subject. We're all here to learn and share ideas and thoughts about classical music.

This is a very well behaved music board. We don't tolerate picking on others or making fun of others. If we find this happens, the ones who provoke are generally gone after being warned.

SO COME ON BOARD. Nothing here costs you one red cent!

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:58 pm

I've heard about this phenomenon also from Corlyss, our other rmoderator, and frankly do not underatand it. I only belong to about three message boards, but it would never have occurred to me to lurk before joining. And I am a fairly shy, stand-offish person. Actually meeting Ralph, Werner, and Karl was a big deal for me. Why we get ten times the viewing of a post as responses to it has always puzzled me.

If you're interested, join us. We don't bite. Members that bite are quickly banned from here., thank God or Corlyss.

I seem to be the third senior poater here by number of posts, but I have severe weaknesses that I bare on request to anyone who bothers to ask. So don't be afraid, just post.

Novitiate · Post by **Novitiate** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:10 pm

Ok then, I'm convinced. Out of the woodwork.

I've 'lurked' for some time now and have enjoyed dipping into your archives for general information and specific recommendations. I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable, having only recently gotten into classical music seriously. But maybe every board needs a resident village idiot ...

Hello jbuck919 - you might not recognise me but I've recently joined the other board and have seen you around there as well.

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:05 pm

Gosh! If I had known all it took to flush the timid from the underbrush was a petition like Lance's, I most certainly would have done it once a month and twice in February.

Welcome to the boards, Novitiate. Don't be shy. You don't have to know 3/4 time from which key has 6 sharps to participate. All musical enthusiasms are welcome here.

Holden Fourth · Post by **Holden Fourth** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:20 pm

jbuck919 wrote:I've heard about this phenomenon also from Corlyss, our other rmoderator, and frankly do not underatand it. I only belong to about three message boards, but it would never have occurred to me to lurk before joining. And I am a fairly shy, stand-offish person. Actually meeting Ralph, Werner, and Karl was a big deal for me. Why we get ten times the viewing of a post as responses to it has always puzzled me.

The maths backs it up. I read many threads on this forum but only reply to those where I feel that I can make a contribution. There are days in which all I do is graze the threads and others where I am, for me anyway, prolific. I imagine that there are others who are the same.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:57 pm

Nav welcome, post freely

Lance I knew we had hundreds of lurkers, as ususally at any given time there are 2-5 on line members and 5-20 "guests".

I do not think we have any "cliques' here. Which can be a putoff for any new potential members willingness to jump in.

For those who think they may not have something of value to say, just consider my posts, with nothing of substance from the scholastic musical POV. I have no classical training nor any eduactional studies. Further, some of my opinions have been criticized as being a bit "off the wall" and other comments that are not worth repeating. Yet in spite of all, no flaming has has crossed my path.
IOW its a real cool place with respect towards all opinions. So please come out the dark join in the discussions.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:29 pm

Novitiate wrote:Ok then, I'm convinced. Out of the woodwork.

I've 'lurked' for some time now and have enjoyed dipping into your archives for general information and specific recommendations. I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable, having only recently gotten into classical music seriously. But maybe every board needs a resident village idiot ...

Hello jbuck919 - you might not recognise me but I've recently joined the other board and have seen you around there as well.

We are very far from a bunch of geniuses, and I was not kidding about by own poissiblities for appearing to be publicly uncovered. So welcome very much, and I look forward to your posts (maybe you'll find a way, figuratively, to cover my nudity soon!!)

Post by **Lance** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:45 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Novitiate wrote:Ok then, I'm convinced. Out of the woodwork.

I've 'lurked' for some time now and have enjoyed dipping into your archives for general information and specific recommendations. I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable, having only recently gotten into classical music seriously. But maybe every board needs a resident village idiot ...

Hello jbuck919 - you might not recognise me but I've recently joined the other board and have seen you around there as well.
We are very far from a bunch of geniuses, and I was not kidding about by own poissiblities for appearing to be publicly uncovered. So welcome very much, and I look forward to your posts (maybe you'll find a way, figuratively, to cover my nudity soon!!)

John, I might be able to help with that. What size leaf do you require? Most all the leaves have fallen to the ground here in Upstate New York.

IcedNote · Post by **IcedNote** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:01 pm

Lance wrote: For example, one poster who joined this month (October 2006) has offered TWO (2) posts but has had 17,470 VIEWS of other posts!

How is that possible?!

-G

Post by **Lance** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:04 pm

IcedNote wrote:
Lance wrote: For example, one poster who joined this month (October 2006) has offered TWO (2) posts but has had 17,470 VIEWS of other posts!
How is that possible?!

-G

Well, the numbers within the SYSTEM that we, as administrators, have access to don't lie. You may, come to think of it, have the access as do if you go checking. I was as astonished as thee. But you, too, probably VIEW many posts that you don't respond to. Apparently we have someone inour midst (probably many) who are REALLY interested in classical music and what we have to say on various posts. OR, it could be that person was checking over all that's going on over in the Pub. (I'd like to think it was the music board, however!)

Ralph · Post by **Ralph** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:52 pm

Novitiate wrote:Ok then, I'm convinced. Out of the woodwork.

I've 'lurked' for some time now and have enjoyed dipping into your archives for general information and specific recommendations. I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable, having only recently gotten into classical music seriously. But maybe every board needs a resident village idiot ...

Hello jbuck919 - you might not recognise me but I've recently joined the other board and have seen you around there as well.

*****

Welcome-no one is a "Village Idiot" on the Chatterbox board. Now, on the Corner Pub board...

Post by **Lance** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:23 pm

Ralph wrote:
Novitiate wrote:Ok then, I'm convinced. Out of the woodwork.

I've 'lurked' for some time now and have enjoyed dipping into your archives for general information and specific recommendations. I'm afraid I'm not very knowledgeable, having only recently gotten into classical music seriously. But maybe every board needs a resident village idiot ...

Hello jbuck919 - you might not recognise me but I've recently joined the other board and have seen you around there as well.
*****

Welcome-no one is a "Village Idiot" on the Chatterbox board. Now, on the Corner Pub board...

Ho, ho, ho! CMD will just love you for that!

Novitiate · Post by **Novitiate** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:18 am

Corlyss_D wrote:Gosh! If I had known all it took to flush the timid from the underbrush was a petition like Lance's, I most certainly would have done it once a month and twice in February.

Welcome to the boards, Novitiate. Don't be shy. You don't have to know 3/4 time from which key has 6 sharps to participate. All musical enthusiasms are welcome here.

Thanks for the welcome. In all honesty, it felt a bit churlish, not to say a little voyeuristic

to be reading without contributing, or at least without a quick thank you, I'm enjoying your board. The Kempff DG Beethoven set has been only one of many gems I've acquired based on enthusiastic reviews here. I'll probably be one of those who rack up thousands of views since I'm new enough that all topics are interesting - the warhorses, contemporary stuff, anything really.

Teresa B · Post by **Teresa B** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:16 am

OK, I just read the thread and clicked off without posting. But here I am, back! I don't post on many threads because either I don't feel I have anything interesting to add, or I haven't time to think something through. I'm sure a lot of folks "lurk" for those reasons, even though they find the threads interesting reading.

Welcome, Novitiate--happy posting!
Teresa

Sapphire · Post by **Sapphire** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:43 am

Anon: "Lurkers of the world unite"

The most worrying thing is that the Admins seen to know even when us non-lurkers are merely viewing. I'd love to know what they know about us! It's a bit like the Greek Gods looking down on us all mere mortals.

Saphire

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:04 pm

Novitiate wrote:Thanks for the welcome. In all honesty, it felt a bit churlish, not to say a little voyeuristic to be reading without contributing, or at least without a quick thank you, I'm enjoying your board.

Well, would all our lurkers felt such an obligation. Lance and I used to console ourselves that at least people were coming here. Lately, we'd kinda like to see some response for the effort - he puts more into it than I do, with his music calendar and his reviews. And he's such a great guy, too, one of the world's true gentlemen. His efforts merit some acknowledgement.

The Kempff DG Beethoven set has been only one of many gems I've acquired based on enthusiastic reviews here. I'll probably be one of those who rack up thousands of views since I'm new enough that all topics are interesting - the warhorses, contemporary stuff, anything really.

Ah, the Kempff - truly wonderful indeed. The first time I heard the Kempff Beethoven concertos under Kempen, it was like I had never heard them before. You can know a thing, or think you know it, and then WHAP! as the late Steve Irwin would say, a new hearing grabs you by the throat and shakes the jadedness out of you.

Don't be shy. Talk to us about what you like.

Post by **Lance** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:21 am

Corlyss_D wrote: [snipped] Well, would all our lurkers felt such an obligation. Lance and I used to console ourselves that at least people were coming here. Lately, we'd kinda like to see some response for the effort - he puts more into it than I do, with his music calendar and his reviews. And he's such a great guy, too, one of the world's true gentlemen. His efforts merit some acknowledgement.

Lance blushes.

Ah, Lyssie, thank you for such wonderful compliments. Corlyss and I really do think we have something special here with CMG. Boards can only be as good as the input, and while we know there are other boards, it's nice to know that we have been around longer than most. People are busier these days than they used to be, or so it seems. But it's nice to know you can always come to a place and write about your favourite subject—classical music—and be well treated.

But Corlyss [Lyssie to me] works as hard as I do trying to keep this board neat and clean, and easy to use, unlike other sites. Simplicity in a web site has some merit. I don't spend time in the Pub - they don't serve Starbucks coffee - so I am not inclined to go there and get into trouble, if you know what I mean. But the Pub is a great place to go to air your thoughts on issues other than classical music. Lyssie is as sweet as they make 'em, hard as she may sound at times.

She is fair, honest, and INTELLIGENT beyond words! You betcha! She's the best!

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:07 am

Er, ah, thank you, pardner.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:48 am

Leave us draw the Curtain of Charity . . . .

:-)

Ryan Laubscher · Post by **Ryan Laubscher** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:54 am

Hi i'm new here and I've joined different forum boards and to be honest I think that a lot of forums can get quite elitest in a bad way which may make newcomers feel small like you've been saying instead being an online place for people with the same interests to chat.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:06 am

Ryan Laubscher wrote:Hi i'm new here and I've joined different forum boards and to be honest I think that a lot of forums can get quite elitest in a bad way which may make newcomers feel small like you've been saying instead being an online place for people with the same interests to chat.

No, feel very welcome here. There is no problem here with elitism. Any problem that crops up is with a poster who gets off on being nasty, and they have all been banned. We are an incredibly nice bunch. The only thing you need to do is be somewhat interested in classical music. Everytghing else takes care of itself.

Ralph · Post by **Ralph** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:28 am

Ryan Laubscher wrote:Hi i'm new here and I've joined different forum boards and to be honest I think that a lot of forums can get quite elitest in a bad way which may make newcomers feel small like you've been saying instead being an online place for people with the same interests to chat.

*****

Welcome! I think you'll find some good discussions here and a lot of nice posters.

Post by **Lance** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:32 am

Ryan Laubscher wrote:Hi i'm new here and I've joined different forum boards and to be honest I think that a lot of forums can get quite elitest in a bad way which may make newcomers feel small like you've been saying instead being an online place for people with the same interests to chat.

Hi Ryan, and welcome to the Classical Music Guide forums. We know exactly what you mean, but we've been here a long time, have developed many nice friendships and have even met one another in some cases. We think you will enjoy yourself here. We watch pretty closely what's going on so feel free to participate no matter what level of knowledge you possess.

Novitiate · Post by **Novitiate** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:21 pm

paulb wrote:Nav welcome, post freely

Lance I knew we had hundreds of lurkers, as ususally at any given time there are 2-5 on line members and 5-20 "guests".

I do not think we have any "cliques' here. Which can be a putoff for any new potential members willingness to jump in.

For those who think they may not have something of value to say, just consider my posts, with nothing of substance from the scholastic musical POV. I have no classical training nor any eduactional studies. Further, some of my opinions have been criticized as being a bit "off the wall" and other comments that are not worth repeating. Yet in spite of all, no flaming has has crossed my path.
IOW its a real cool place with respect towards all opinions. So please come out the dark join in the discussions.

Hello paulb - thanks for the welcome and reassurance.

I have to confess to being something of a Beethoven fan

and having no idea who Schnittke is, so please don't clobber me over the head

(hereby proving that I'm a lurker of old and am familiar with where the battle lines are drawn, teehee ... )

Look forward to 'chatting' with you and everyone.

Hello Ryan Laubscher - from one newbie to another.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:08 pm

Novitiate wrote:Hello paulb - thanks for the welcome and reassurance.

I have to confess to being something of a Beethoven fan and having no idea who Schnittke is, so please don't clobber me over the head

A Beethoven fan? Man, that's the Kiss of Death as far as paulb is concerned!

Just don't let him know you like Tchaikovsky, too!

Cheers,
~Karl

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:42 pm

Ryan Laubscher wrote:Hi i'm new here and I've joined different forum boards and to be honest I think that a lot of forums can get quite elitest in a bad way which may make newcomers feel small like you've been saying instead being an online place for people with the same interests to chat.

We kicked those guys out last year.

Welcome, Ryan. Stick around and give us a test drive. The SysAdmins try very hard to defuse the elitist BS. We want this to be a place where all musical tastes can talk freely about their enthusiasms. In this room we talk classical music only, but in the pub we have two long-running threads on the Great American songbook and some have dared to talk hip-hop and rock and rap. So what's your pleasure?

Ryan Laubscher · Post by **Ryan Laubscher** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:22 am

Nice one. Well i'm a producer by trade, classically trained of course! I studied at the Royal College of music. I mainly do commercial music butt I also do Classical crossover and I used to work with Katherine Jenkins.
As for composers I like, I'm mainly into Mozart, Beethoven and Stravinsky.

Thanks for your warm welcome guys!
Ryan

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:25 am

Ryan Laubscher wrote: As for composers I like, I'm mainly into Mozart, Beethoven and Stravinsky.

Splendid, Ryan!

I read volume II first (and thus out of order), but I am now reading volume I of Stephen Walsh's biography of Stravinsky, A Creative Spring.

Cheers,
~Karl

Ryan Laubscher · Post by **Ryan Laubscher** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:29 am

Cool sounds great, I love Biographies!

Post by **Lance** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:44 am

karlhenning wrote:Leave us draw the Curtain of Charity . . . .

Bbbbut Karl, we need more charity in the world. Remember the phrase: "Charity begins at home."

Sapphire · Post by **Sapphire** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:24 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Novitiate wrote:Hello paulb - thanks for the welcome and reassurance.

I have to confess to being something of a Beethoven fan and having no idea who Schnittke is, so please don't clobber me over the head
A Beethoven fan? Man, that's the Kiss of Death as far as paulb is concerned!

Just don't let him know you like Tchaikovsky, too!

Cheers,
~Karl

Psst: Novitiate (just for your ears). Welcome fellow Beethoven fan. We need support. I gather you've been lurking hitherto, so you will therefore know that there used to be a Romantic Gestapo operational here. They're on the run at the moment. Paul is the self-appointed head of the Resistance in charge of purging the Forum of all Romantics. He seems to be winning. Just a bit of friendly advice for you: I wouldn't mention the name "Beethoven" too often if I were you or could find yourself getting dragged off to a secret location not a million miles from Baton Rouge and be subjected to the most horrific anti-Beethoven drug therapy. They play this awful music, far worse than Cage, by two obscure composers whose names don't matter. I've heard it's awful. Makes you just wanna scream. Far more effective than hot needles. To be on the safe side we all use code. The code word for Romantic is "Bush" and the code for Beethoven is "Blair". So when you see "I love Blair" you'll know what we mean. Or if we are referring to Romantic it may say: "Bush for President". Got it? You'll soon get the idea. It's better than finishing up in Baton Rouge, I tell you. The last of our members to get dragged off there came back a zombie. Now he just listens to nursery rhymes all day while he plays with his tonka truck. Shame. I should sleep with one eye open if I were you; that'll teach you for coming out!

Regards

Saphire

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:03 pm

Novitiate wrote: I have to confess to being something of a Beethoven fan and having no idea who Schnittke is, so please don't clobber me over the head

Paulb is also a respected member here, but he is approximately the same age as I am (in his 50s) and not to appreciate Beethoven at that point is extremely eccentric, out of bounds even, so don't be unduly influenced by him in this matter, at least. And I also never heard about this creature called Schnittke before I joined this board.

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:08 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Paulb is also a respected member here, but he is approximately the same age as I am (in his 50s) and not to appreciate Beethoven at that point is extremely eccentric, out of bounds even, so don't be unduly influenced by him in this matter, at least. And I also never heard about this creature called Schnittke before I joined this board.

There are good reasons for that :-)

And . . . had you ever heard of Pettersson before reading Paul's posts?

Cheers,
~Karl

Post by **Lance** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:15 pm

As a follow-up on the LURKER subject, members can see how many VIEWS a subject gets versus the number of responses. In most cases, I think a 10% return of the number of views is decent. Some subjects garner far more than this. Personally, I'd like to see 20-25% of the VIEWS showing as responses or input from members.

Novitiate · Post by **Novitiate** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:21 pm

Lance wrote:As a follow-up on the LURKER subject, members can see how many VIEWS a subject gets versus the number of responses. In most cases, I think a 10% return of the number of views is decent. Some subjects garner far more than this. Personally, I'd like to see 20-25% of the VIEWS showing as responses or input from members.

Yes sir!

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:36 pm

I have noticed that there are ten times as many views as there are posts on a typical thread. Frankly, it embarrasses me. For our lurkers, I am not that wonderful. I am just a fairly nice guy who doesn't mind posting, and I am so stand offish that I woder about dozens of potential posters who might be intimidated by our senior posters. All you have to do is say "I think I like Bach" and we are not going to chop your online head off. Anyone who came back and admonished you in a negative way would quickly be at least admonished by the mods.

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:33 am

Ryan Laubscher wrote:I used to work with Katherine Jenkins.

Wow! She's quite a looker too. Every time someone posts on her, you can feel the temperature rise around here.

Ryan Laubscher · Post by **Ryan Laubscher** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:10 am

lol, she is a pretty lady indeed and of course talented too!

Dalibor · Post by **Dalibor** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:40 pm

Lance wrote: Lurkers: However, you are ENCOURAGED to participate. Don't feel that you don't have the knowledge or may be inadequate in a subject. We're all here to learn and share ideas and thoughts about classical music.

This is a very well behaved music board. We don't tolerate picking on others or making fun of others. If we find this happens, the ones who provoke are generally gone after being warned.

Hypocrisy...

Post by **Lance** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:09 pm

Dalibor wrote:
Lance wrote: Lurkers: However, you are ENCOURAGED to participate. Don't feel that you don't have the knowledge or may be inadequate in a subject. We're all here to learn and share ideas and thoughts about classical music.

This is a very well behaved music board. We don't tolerate picking on others or making fun of others. If we find this happens, the ones who provoke are generally gone after being warned.
Hypocrisy...

"Hypocrisy"? How so, I beg thee tell me.

Dalibor · Post by **Dalibor** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:36 pm

Lance wrote:"Hypocrisy"? How so, I beg thee tell me.

I will.
I remeber my first visit here a few years back. It was on-line analogy of a linch (how do you spell it?) The reason? I wanted to speak about possibility of enchancing classical music with electronic instruments. I got many direct personal insults and no sensible discusion

This place is stuck in a shell and refuses to see reality. You can't expect young people to say here anything freely. I noticed a few newbies here, and before starting to speak they first apologise to you all for nothing ("I know I will look ridiculous" etc.) How honestly they are likely to post with that kind of attitude?

If you are any kind of authorities, you should demonstrte that by universal understanding, that includes undestanding of everything that happens in the world of music today. Classical composers were able to understand everything that was around them. Today, people from classical world don't seem to be able to. That is why they turn towards defensive scorn, what is what I ment by "hypocrisy". I am sick and tired of that reactionary nature of contemporary classical music

Post by **Lance** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:34 pm

Dalibor wrote:
Lance wrote:"Hypocrisy"? How so, I beg thee tell me.
I will.
I remeber my first visit here a few years back. It was on-line analogy of a linch (how do you spell it?) The reason? I wanted to speak about possibility of enchancing classical music with electronic instruments. I got many direct personal insults and no sensible discusion

This place is stuck in a shell and refuses to see reality. You can't expect young people to say here anything freely. I noticed a few newbies here, and before starting to speak they first apologise to you all for nothing ("I know I will look ridiculous" etc.) How honestly they are likely to post with that kind of attitude?

If you are any kind of authorities, you should demonstrte that by universal understanding, that includes undestanding of everything that happens in the world of music today. Classical composers were able to understand everything that was around them. Today, people from classical world don't seem to be able to. That is why they turn towards defensive scorn, what is what I ment by "hypocrisy". I am sick and tired of that reactionary nature of contemporary classical music

Well, thank you for being candid. A few years ago, perhaps things were different on this and other boards. We have contemporary composers on our board, which is an indication that we are certainly interested in what today's composers are doing. While I am more personally tied to music from the Baroque through the Romantic periods, and music into the 20th century with Rachmaninoff, Kodaly, etc., my heart is pulled to those areas of music. Do YOU understand everything in the entire field that embraces classical music right up to today? I don't think anyone does. We are learning all the time and trying to take in as much as we can. Even most of the critics of major orchestras don't have a firm hand on contemporary classical music.

While I have written notes to symphonic performances of music by Joan Tower, John Adams, Messiaen, and countless others, like anyone else, I have to hear the music and form my own opinions. I have that right, just like anyone else.

I cannot tell you how many concerts I have gone to where 20th/21st century music has been performed by season ticket holders who simply cannot negotiate/endure the music of today. In that end, many say that they will not subscribe the following year. On the other hand, even Tchaikovsky, in his own time, was critiqued as writing music that "stinks in the ear," (his Violin Concerto), but he didn't stop composing and today, the world looks upon that piece with great joy. It is going to be as tough for today's composers to create music that probably won't truly be enjoyed until long after their demise.

How many times have we read and heard about contemporary classical music concerts at venues in places like New York that have a mere handful or two of attendees? It's been often, and these concerts often include celebrated performing artists. One wonders if the people of today, who are steeped in more traditional classical music, are ready to take on the sounds of today.

If you feel so strongly about contemporary classical music, perhaps you can help the situation by writing about it in places like this and educating as many as possible about the music's merits. Don't just throw stones at those of us who choose music of yesteryear. Build your case! I am willing to listen and have an open mind.

One of my dear friends of university years gone by, Diane Thome, who teaches at the University of Seattle, writes compositions of electro/acoustic music and her music can be found in my collection; her work is also very successful.

Are you composing music yourself? I'd be interesting in learning about it.

Dalibor · Post by **Dalibor** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:08 am

Lance, as first thank you for reading this bunch of my posts and answering most of them.

As for this one, you understood me wrong on numerous ways. As first, I am nothing near to a composer or a musician of any kind. I do have some musicality, but that's about it. I simply love music. But I DO NOT love contepmorary classical music AT ALL. THe kind of music I am talking about pretty much do not exist in this moment, but is only hinted in some movie and so called "ambiental" and contemporary instrumental music. Electro-acoustic music you mentioned is one of those chaotic genres that I dismiss, because those musicians (Stockhausen and company) do not deal with harmony and atmosphere (and their's music also sounds so arbitary to me)

My equation is simple: electronic instruments give you texture; texture gives you mood; and mood is the most music can express. But it is only subtly textured orchestral music that holds this power to create mood, and not the solo music which is more towards mere emotions/will or abstract logic

What I can't understand is certain scorn towards atmospheric/mood music that is continuing, despite authors such Debussy are hailed - and who was into just that kind of music. I am amazed at how rarely you can read anywhere a piece of music analysed atmosphere-wise, while you always get (usualy over-the-top) analysis of pieces more in a literary way. So Wagner was speaking about Eroica as a strugle between a man and a women(!) Other's say it's Naopleon. Toscanini said it's just "alegro con brio". For me it's neither of that, but the ATMOSPHERE of the plains, battles, castles, sunsets of Beethovens time - ofcourse, as felt by Beethoven. From Eroica I can know how Beethoven felt his time, and how the time itself felt like. Even if Eroica is not that moody a piece...
A composer is the one who can translate his ideas on the language of music; and when he does that succesfully, before anything else the result is a mood. Not a thought, which music can't express, and not emotion, which is to little to be satisfied with. And certainly a music can't tell a story.
For me, music = atmosphere, and electronic instruments can make music far more atmospheric than it ever was; they can bring textural subtilities unknown in traditional music and open up possibilities for experssing subtler ideas and a greater range of ideas through music. Composition will probably accordingly evolve down different paths

It's just hard to guess why this still isn't happening

Post by **Corlyss_D** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:07 am

Dalibor wrote:This place is stuck in a shell and refuses to see reality. You can't expect young people to say here anything freely. I noticed a few newbies here, and before starting to speak they first apologise to you all for nothing ("I know I will look ridiculous" etc.) How honestly they are likely to post with that kind of attitude?

A certain timidity about initiating conversations in a new setting is not unusual. Thank you for pointing out that it is not their shyness that restrains them, but our blighted musical world view.

If you are any kind of authorities, you should demonstrte that by universal understanding, that includes undestanding of everything that happens in the world of music today.

I don't know that anyone except a rare handful have ever held themselves out as experts here in the credentialed sense. Most of us are just fans and we have our preferances, just as you do.

Classical composers were able to understand everything that was around them.

And you know this because . . . . ?

What I can't understand is certain scorn towards atmospheric/mood music that is continuing, despite authors such Debussy are hailed - and who was into just that kind of music. I am amazed at how rarely you can read anywhere a piece of music analysed atmosphere-wise, while you always get (usualy over-the-top) analysis of pieces more in a literary way. So Wagner was speaking about Eroica as a strugle between a man and a women(!) Other's say it's Naopleon. Toscanini said it's just "alegro con brio". For me it's neither of that, but the ATMOSPHERE of the plains, battles, castles, sunsets of Beethovens time - ofcourse, as felt by Beethoven. From Eroica I can know how Beethoven felt his time, and how the time itself felt like. Even if Eroica is not that moody a piece.

Mood and atmosphere is largely what the listener gets out a piece, not necessarily what the composer intended, especially in non-programmatic works. So there's almost no point in talking about mood and atmosphere because it can't be done in any authoritative way and it would change with each listener.

Dalibor · Post by **Dalibor** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:26 am

Corlyss_D wrote: And you know this because . . . . ?

???

There was no kind of music Bach was alien to, is that right? He probably didn't like all of it, but he certainly understood all the music he heared in his time and there was no sort of music he had defensive attitude towards, like people from classical music these days have towards electronic forms (apart from irrelevant atonal serial music). THere was even a pettition in France to ban synthesizers a decade or so ago! And only a few month ago I hear from a certain girl something like "electronic music is an oxymoron". She certainly learned that somewhere - not hard to guess where.

Sapphire · Post by **Sapphire** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:48 am

Dalibor

I've read your posts above and in a few other places recently. It seems you like, if I may call it such, "electonically enhanced Bach". But it seems there isn't much of this on the market at present, and you consider this is because of rejection of this "style" of "music" by classical audiophiles.

Well, no disrespect to you or your tastes, but I'm afraid I would be branded as a snobbish classical audiophile on this definition.

It's mainly mainly because I don't want electronic synthesisers mixed up with classical music. It's bad enough having Nigel Kennedy types completely messing up such wonderful works like Vivaldi's 4 seasons with OTT renditions. The thought of a Tangerine Dream version of BWV 1066 (or whatever) would send me into a complete state of disbelief and shock. (Although I like TD I wouldn't expect others of a pure classical music bent to do so.)

Sorry but I think you are barking up the wrong tree. I suggest you might posibly get more sympathy from an Electronic music Forum.

Saphire

Harvested Sorrow · Post by **Harvested Sorrow** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:38 am

karlhenning wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Paulb is also a respected member here, but he is approximately the same age as I am (in his 50s) and not to appreciate Beethoven at that point is extremely eccentric, out of bounds even, so don't be unduly influenced by him in this matter, at least. And I also never heard about this creature called Schnittke before I joined this board.
There are good reasons for that

And . . . had you ever heard of Pettersson before reading Paul's posts?

Cheers,
~Karl

Now, now, that's not quite fair!

I'd actually heard of Pettersson before reading his posts, fortunately. Kept me from being turned off to the composer so I checked out some material. Same with Schnittke. I'm guessing you're not a fan of either of the two. =)

Dalibor · Post by **Dalibor** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:16 am

Saphire, it's true that this definitely is not the right place for mentioning electronic instruments. But don't you find it strange that no one seems to care for planting-over of the most universal qualities of classical music into hi-tech aproach? Why all the universal virtues of classical music have to be a part of low-tech aproach?

You mentioned you liking of Tangerine Dream - I must admit I am surprised (both positively and negatively). THat IS somewhat hi-tech aproach, but not very substantial. I find their;s music much more jazz than classical based and essentialy a continuation of 60-ies atonal experiments in progressive rock (ex, "Saucefull of Secrets" from the same named Pink Floyd album). I find Jean Michel Jarre's aproach, say from "Oxygene", much more substantial then their's - it's not I am saying that it's exactly that kind of music I am hoping for

karlhenning · Post by **karlhenning** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:44 am

Well, not a great fan by any stretch of the imagination, Harvest :-)

Cheers,
~Karl

Post by **Lance** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:39 am

Dalibor wrote:Saphire, it's true that this definitely is not the right place for mentioning electronic instruments. [snipped]

Hi Dalibor:

This is MOST CERTAINLY the place to mention electronic instruments. It's a part of today's music culture. There's no reason NOT to post on it here. You will undoubtedly find others who share your enthusiasm on the subject. How many "hits" you get on a particular topic remains to be seen. But if it's electronic instruments and classical music, we would welcome any input here. There may be more specialized boards on the subject, but, perhaps given your erudition in this realm of music, you will find others to discuss the subject with right here on Classical Music Guide.

Go to it!

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