And Hanslick's third B (jbuck, shield your eyes!) was Berlioz.Opus132 wrote:The three Bs thing comes from Hanslick.
Cheers,
~Karl
And Hanslick's third B (jbuck, shield your eyes!) was Berlioz.Opus132 wrote:The three Bs thing comes from Hanslick.
Doesn't matter (to me, at any rate) what Mahler did or did not say, Jack. A requiem is a setting of a text, and when a composer sets a text, there are extra-musical considerations (viz., the text) which are imposed upon the content and form of the music. All texted music is some kind of 'program music', broadly speaking.Jack Kelso wrote:Nonsense! A requiem is NOT program music, even if Mahler stated that "all music written after Beethoven is 'program music'".
Definition is everything. As I've learned in music, program music (proper) didn't exist before Berlioz and Liszt. A friend of mine, a concert pianist and musicologist, once argued that Mendelssohn's "Fingal's Cave" ("Hebrides") Overture is a symphonic poem before Liszt invented the term.karlhenning wrote:Doesn't matter (to me, at any rate) what Mahler did or did not say, Jack. A requiem is a setting of a text, and when a composer sets a text, there are extra-musical considerations (viz., the text) which are imposed upon the content and form of the music. All texted music is some kind of 'program music', broadly speaking.Jack Kelso wrote:Nonsense! A requiem is NOT program music, even if Mahler stated that "all music written after Beethoven is 'program music'".
Cheers,
~Karl
Piano works of Beethoven, Schumann and Brahms do demand a good number of hearings----but offer wonderful rewards. Brahms' 1st Rhapsody, opus 79 is my personal favorite of his shorter works. A real beaut'!Teresa B wrote:....I got to know more of his works, and started to study the wonderful late piano pieces. I have found these pieces to express every imaginable emotion, and they get better the longer you know them.
All the best,
Teresa
To be sure!Jack Kelso wrote:Definition is everything.
Then must the Beethoven Opus 68 and Vivaldi's Le quattro stagioni be highly improper :-)As I've learned in music, program music (proper) didn't exist before Berlioz and Liszt.
Requiems & such were always produced strictly to go along with a church service. Brahms most likely didn't write his Requiem for any specific church, he was merely utilizing an established form. He did that with all his chamber works, his concertos and his symphonies--the one exception, in the latter, being the "frisch aber froh" motif that he used cyclically in the Third Symphony. And as for the so-called Intermezzos & Rhapsodies, Fantasies & Ballades for piano, he seemed merely to tack these titles on as an afterthought: the G-Minor Rhapsody, for instance, is really one of the clearest-cut examples of sonata-allegro form you can imagine.karlhenning wrote:Doesn't matter (to me, at any rate) what Mahler did or did not say, Jack. A requiem is a setting of a text, and when a composer sets a text, there are extra-musical considerations (viz., the text) which are imposed upon the content and form of the music. All texted music is some kind of 'program music', broadly speaking.Jack Kelso wrote:Nonsense! A requiem is NOT program music, even if Mahler stated that "all music written after Beethoven is 'program music'".
Cheers,
~Karl
Well, originally, the Missa pro defunctis was simply chanted.Wallingford wrote:Requiems & such were always produced strictly to go along with a church service.
No, actually he set the established form aside. (This in itself was a very creative approach, of course.)Brahms most likely didn't write his Requiem for any specific church, he was merely utilizing an established form.
Hey Jack, that is one of my favorites, too! I played it at my "senior recital" in college.Jack Kelso wrote:Piano works of Beethoven, Schumann and Brahms do demand a good number of hearings----but offer wonderful rewards. Brahms' 1st Rhapsody, opus 79 is my personal favorite of his shorter works. A real beaut'!
Jack
Do you mean, "Should Brahms be less appreciated for some reason?" I don't think so, from a subjective viewpoint, because I love Brahms. But maybe Brahms is less appreciated because:Stonebraker wrote:I think this thread has disgressed a little from the original post. I agree that Brahms is less appreciated than the likes of Beethoven and Mozart, and I think most people would. I think the question is whether this is warranted or not.
I agree with all your points! Brahm's Symphonies changed the way I looked at music. I still only really "know" first two. Each symphony seems to be greater than the last, and holds more gems than the last. I thought the ending of Brahms Sym. no. 1 was the most inspiring music I'd ever heard in my life, I equated listening to it to the feeling of flying in a dream. When I started listening to symphony No. 2, I began to realize what an expert craftsman Brahms is. While not the greatest melodist, he can take even the smallest motive and work every beautiful possibility out of it. So after initialy thinking Brahms first symphony was the best, I came to the conclusion that Brahms second symphony was the greatest achievement in all of music.Teresa B wrote:Do you mean, "Should Brahms be less appreciated for some reason?" I don't think so, from a subjective viewpoint, because I love Brahms. But maybe Brahms is less appreciated because:Stonebraker wrote:I think this thread has disgressed a little from the original post. I agree that Brahms is less appreciated than the likes of Beethoven and Mozart, and I think most people would. I think the question is whether this is warranted or not.
?There is more Mozart and Beethoven played in the media for any number of reasons, so more exposure and familiarity
?Brahms' writing is dense and often complex. Thus it may be "easier" for a greater number of people to listen to and apprehend what is being expressed in Mozart and Beethoven. (not in every case, obviously, but just in general.)
I would not say that Brahms is in any way inferior to the other composers and thus deserves less appreciation!
Teresa
Wait, so are you for or against Brahms as the single most important person in the history of the world?Hondo wrote:Teresa wrote:
"I would not say that Brahms is in any way inferior to the other composers and thus deserves less appreciation!"
As beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so greatness is in the mind and ears of the listener! I'm truly amazed at the responses in this thread - why can't we just accept that each of us will have a different concept and definition of greatness? I think few people will deny that Brahms was one of the greatest composers. Just look at the conductors who have recorded his symphonies and other works: Toscanini, Weingartner, Klemperer, Wand, etc. Whether Brahms belongs in the top ten, top twenty or top thirty doesn't really matter. What matters is that he is great as far as a particular listener is concerned!
Gabe
Gosh, Impower...thanks for the praise----but I'm not a solo voice in the wilderness in praising the greatest composer since Beethoven.lmpower wrote:I would also place Brahms right behind Bach, Mozart and Beethoven on the greatness scale. I may even have drawn closer to Brahms than to that trio of masters. Bach was the supreme intellectual master of counterpoint and expression of the Protestant Christian tradition. Mozart was the heavenly angel who showed us how beautiful life might be. Beethoven was to music what Shakespeare was to drama and Tolstoy to the novel. He experienced every aspect of human life intensely and explored special territory in his late quartets. The adjective melancholy has been attached to Brahms. I think the phrase Autumnal nostalgia describes some of his best and most characteristic moments. Corlyss has pointed out the bombastic passages in Brahms, which I don't think are his best and most Brahmsian expressions. Robert Schumann was the quintessential romantic. He wasn't the greatest talent of the nineteenth century, but there are times in some of his work when my love for him must rival that of Jack Kelso.
diegobueno wrote:On several occasions I have heard the though expressed* that the Brahms Clarinet Quintet op. 115 is the very summit of chamber music, the very greatest that has been composed in that genre.
* (by non-clarinetists no less!)
diegobueno wrote:On several occasions I have heard the though expressed* that the Brahms Clarinet Quintet op. 115 is the very summit of chamber music, the very greatest that has been composed in that genre.
* (by non-clarinetists no less!)
My mother was a great pianist. I recall lots of Schumann, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Mozart...no Brahms. On the other hand, Mrs. Rock's favorite composer is Brahms. Maybe she's the exception that proves the rule.diegobueno wrote: I have known some non-musicians (all of them women for some reason) who were less than enthusiastic about Brahms even though they liked classical music in general. Has anyone else noted a gender bias in dislike for Brahms?
Which last Schoenberg very colorfully and playfully orchestrated, you know, Jack!Jack Kelso wrote:For me, the finest and most gratifying chamber works of Brahms are the Sextet in B-Flat, op. 18, the Piano Quartet No. 1 in g minor, op. 25
Yes indeed, Karl. I have the performance, recorded from radio. One might call it "Brahms' Fifth"! (Well, for him a "fifth" was something else again.)karlhenning wrote:Which last Schoenberg very colorfully and playfully orchestrated, you know, Jack!Jack Kelso wrote:For me, the finest and most gratifying chamber works of Brahms are the Sextet in B-Flat, op. 18, the Piano Quartet No. 1 in g minor, op. 25
Cheers,
~Karl
It would be difficult to make a "rule" out of something so general. My methodology in coming up with my "Brahms is from Mars, Puccini is from Venus" rule was extremely unscientific, and it should come as no surprise that the conclusion is flawed. It comes only from observing non-musician friends who like classical music.Sergeant Rock wrote:My mother was a great pianist. I recall lots of Schumann, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Mozart...no Brahms. On the other hand, Mrs. Rock's favorite composer is Brahms. Maybe she's the exception that proves the rule.diegobueno wrote: I have known some non-musicians (all of them women for some reason) who were less than enthusiastic about Brahms even though they liked classical music in general. Has anyone else noted a gender bias in dislike for Brahms?
Sarge
I completely agree that Brahms' clarinet quintet is not only his best but one of the great works of all time. I am also not a clarinetist.diegobueno wrote:On several occasions I have heard the though expressed* that the Brahms Clarinet Quintet op. 115 is the very summit of chamber music, the very greatest that has been composed in that genre.
* (by non-clarinetists no less!)
Thrilled to hear it, Jack.Jack Kelso wrote:For me, the finest and most gratifying chamber works of Brahms are the Sextet in B-Flat, op. 18, the Piano Quartet No. 1 in g minor, op. 25 and the Piano Quintet, op. 34. But I also enjoy the Violin Sonata, op. 78 ("Regentropfen-Sonate").
yeah, i just got this...recently released on the latest craft/naxos...haven't given it a proper listen yet.karlhenning wrote:Piano Quartet No. 1 in g minor, op. 25
Which last Schoenberg very colorfully and playfully orchestrated, you know, Jack!
Well, I can't say whether the two piano concerti are Brahms' greatest works (he has SO MANY great masterpieces); but I do believe that they represent the pinnacle of the piano concerto literature . . . . . . . There's really nothing quite like them . . . . . . . Even in Beethoven . . . . . .Hondo wrote:I have always thought Brahms' Piano Concerti were his greatest works.
Gabe
You have excellent taste: Beethoven's 4th and 5th are in my "top 5" for piano concerti, so our disagreement is almost non-existent.Hondo wrote:
Being a major Beethoven lover, I will humbly disagree with your last statement. Beethoven's third and fourth piano concerti being my alltime favorites in that genre.
You hit the SUBMIT button at the bottom of the box.Hondo wrote:Brahms wrote:
"Hi, Gabe. You'll see a QUOTE button on the upper right corner of the author's post box. Click on that, and you'll be set."
I got that far, but don't know what to do next. Can't locate an appropriate button to click on to post my message.
Gabe
As far as originality is concerned, I don't think Schoenberg's famous essay to which I already referred should be dismissed as the "effort of some critic," but it does show that the issue you allude to existed already in Brahms' own time and immediately thereafter.daycart wrote:Despite the efforts of some critics, I don't think Brahms gets a lot of points for originality or influence.
From: "Strauss's Musical Landscapes"jbuck919 wrote: But none of them, not Mahler, or Strauss, or Schoenberg, failed to realize that he lived in the shadow of Brahms.
It would be astonishing if any composer (including Brahms) could approach the "popularity" of the Holy Trinity. No composer, no matter how great, will ever pierce that barrier.Saphire wrote:To get this discussion back on track, can anyone who thinks that Brahms is as widely appreciated as Beethoven, Mozart and Bach please state their evidence. Specifically, which measures of popularity are they basing these assertions upon? Same question regards Schumann. I'm talking about general world-wide popularity, not individual markets. I'm also talking about what is, not what ought to be, which confusion has dogged this thread from the beginning.
Brahms: I agree. I think this answers the first post on this thread. However good Brahms is, he is not appreciated as much as the Holy Trinity. It's difficult to measure the gap, but I think it's quite big. From my observations, I would say that Brahms and Schubert are probably very close in 4th and 5th positions in terms of overall popularity. I greatly appreciate both of these as well as Beethoven and Schumann (they form my top 4). My "list" is usually in a state of flux and right now the one who is heading upwards is Schubert. The more I listen the more I love the Schubert sound.Brahms wrote:[It would be astonishing if any composer (including Brahms) could approach the "popularity" of the Holy Trinity. No composer, no matter how great, will ever pierce that barrier.
I agree that Brahms and Schubert are probably neck-and-neck in terms of overall popularity; although I suspect that Brahms gets programmed more in the concert halls.Saphire wrote:Brahms: I agree. I think this answers the first post on this thread. However good Brahms is, he is not appreciated as much as the Holy Trinity. It's difficult to measure the gap, but I think it's quite big. From my observations, I would say that Brahms and Schubert are probably very close in 4th and 5th positions in terms of overall popularity. I greatly appreciate both of these as well as Beethoven and Schumann (they form my top 4). My "list" is usually in a state of flux and right now the one who is heading upwards is Schubert. The more I listen the more I love the Schubert sound.Brahms wrote:[It would be astonishing if any composer (including Brahms) could approach the "popularity" of the Holy Trinity. No composer, no matter how great, will ever pierce that barrier.
Brahms himself knew that. (Please take note of the following, those of you who make fun of me for referring to some composers as beings of another order.) When he was compared to the earlier masters, he wrote back to a correspondent, "Those men were gods. To have the St. Matthew Passion, Don Giovanni, Fidelio, the Ninth Symphony as one's daily bread, no, this is no longer permitted to us."Brahms wrote: It would be astonishing if any composer (including Brahms) could approach the "popularity" of the Holy Trinity. No composer, no matter how great, will ever pierce that barrier.
I disagree. I think with a better educated public, the popularity would seem to reverse. To me, the most accesible music is that of the romantic era. Moreso than the composers of the Baroque and Classical eras, these people spoke through their music about whta it is like to be a human being; the frustrations, the incredible joy, the fears we all hold. So if we're talking about the public popularity of the "holy trinity", I think it could easily be destroyed if the public cared to know the music of Brahms or Gustav Mahler.Brahms wrote: It would be astonishing if any composer (including Brahms) could approach the "popularity" of the Holy Trinity. No composer, no matter how great, will ever pierce that barrier.
Well they all have the same number of compositions on the Billboard Hot 200, that is, zero. Seriously, I don't think there are any "measures of popularity" are there? These debates are entirely subjective, and the difference is in the ear of the beholder. For myself, I find that Brahms is "generally" more mentally invigorating listening than Mozart, and Mozart I tend to find more of a piece while there is more variety in Brahms. But Mozart at his best is certainly more exciting than Brahms, and often more pleasurable. Mozart wrote much more than Brahms did, but Brahms had a much greater musical legacy to surpass. I'm sure he didn't fire off his Concerto's the way Mozart did. So what it comes down to is, you can't compare Brahms and Mozart, but I for one would consider Brahms as one of what writer Philip Goulding (composer ranker extraordinaire) calls the Immortals, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven AND Brahms. (Goulding did not consider Brahms an Immortal.)Saphire wrote:Can anyone who thinks that Brahms is as widely appreciated as Beethoven, Mozart and Bach please state their evidence. Specifically, which measures of popularity are they basing these assertions upon?
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