Obama's spiritual advisor

[ch1525]

Would you want this man to be your President's spiritual adviser??? I think not!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM

[Barry]

Well .... whether this troubles me depends how much of a spiritual adviser he really is. Does Obama really count on the guy for any kind of advice or even one-on-one spiritual guidance or does he just show up at church on occasion and sit and listen to the guy without really being close to him?

How many people close to him can he afford to have publicly trashing the country before it starts to stick and people begin questioning his patriotism?

I will say that I don't buy Obama's "crazy uncle" analogy. We don't choose who our uncles are, but we do choose which house of worship to go to and which spiritual leaders to be close to.

[ch1525]

From Wikipedia:

"Relationship with Barack Obama:

The title of Senator and Presidential candidate Barack Obama's book The Audacity of Hope was taken from a sermon written by Wright.[5] Obama first met Wright and joined his church while he was working as a community organizer prior to attending Harvard Law School. Obama's connection to Wright first drew attention in a February 2007 Rolling Stone article which described a speech in which Wright forcefully spoke about racism against African-Americans.[6] Citing the article and fears that any further controversy would harm the church, Obama scrapped plans of having Wright introduce him at his Presidential announcement. [7] Obama has often said that he and Rev. Wright sometimes disagree. [8]"

[Fugu]

Would you want this man to be your President's spiritual adviser??? I think not!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM

No worse than Ronnie Reagan's astrologer.

[Werner]

That was Nancy's astrologer, Dan.

And who is this charsacter on Youtube, claimed to be Obama's "spiritual adviser?" On whose authority?

I'd suspect that Obama - or any rational, non-polemic individual - would "disagree" with that sort of talk.

[Fugu]

That was Nancy's astrologer, Dan.

And who is this charsacter on Youtube, claimed to be Obama's "spiritual adviser?" On whose authority?

I'd suspect that Obama - or any rational, non-polemic individual - would "disagree" with that sort of talk.

http://www.presidentialufo.com/sydney_o ... rology.htm

[Agnes Selby]

That was Nancy's astrologer, Dan.

And who is this charsacter on Youtube, claimed to be Obama's "spiritual adviser?" On whose authority?

I'd suspect that Obama - or any rational, non-polemic individual - would "disagree" with that sort of talk.

-----------

Werner, the spiritual adviser for the past 20 years according to
the commentator of the church Obama attends is the pastor of the church. We saw a most interesting "show" of the church service
on our evening news where the pastor ranted and raved against the rich whites "who have never experienced the cold and hunger". I could
not understand all of his ravings because as an Australian, I find
it difficult to understand the Black way of speaking. However, it
was not an engaging sight.

Regards,
Agnes.
----------------------

[Chosen Barley]

Well, if Obama disagrees with that sort of talk, let him hurry and say so publicly. But I don't think he'll be rejecting such racist ideas any time soon.

Since when does being "poor and black" allow anyone to cloak himself with rectitude? Whatever happened to judging people by the "content of their character" and not "the color of their skin"?

[Ted]

Gee, and I thought Elijah Mohammad was Obama's Spiritual Adviser***

[greymouse]

How is that even a church? The videos I've seen look like Klan rallies, and the pastor sounds high. Obama seems like such a level headed guy - why would a concerned father take his family to such trashy nonsense? This is going to gnaw at him constantly because he's too closely tied to the church.

[ch1525]

How is that even a church? The videos I've seen look like Klan rallies, and the pastor sounds high. Obama seems like such a level headed guy - why would a concerned father take his family to such trashy nonsense? This is going to gnaw at him constantly because he's too closely tied to the church.

I've played music for services of almost every denomination you can think of, and I've never seen people act that way before! It's pretty absurd!!!

[Barry]

I had just read quotes from this guy until a minute ago, when i finally watched the video. It certainly makes an impact.

Now my next question is whether this guy is like this on a consistent basis or has he never gone on a racist rant while Obama was there. Because if he sat through something like that and doesn't want to run as far from possible as that guy and that church, maybe he's not the kind of guy I thought he was.

[GK]

For how long will Obama allow himself to be associated with this guy? Someone who gives an award to Farrakhan the year that his noted parishioner is running for president is no friend. If Obama gets the nomination and this issue festers, he will hear about it from the Post, Daily News, Giuliani, Lieberman, etc. and the Democrats will risk losing New York.

[SaulChanukah]

Would you want this man to be your President's spiritual adviser??? I think not!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM

Terrible..he should not become president..

[keaggy220]

It will be interesting to see if the press continues to give Obama a free ride. The moment an advisor for Clinton says something out of line it goes for maximum impact.

[DavidRoss]

I'm scratching my head to figure out what you're objecting to in this video clip. Yes, Wright's gone a bit off topic, turning his sermon into a political stump speech, but surely that's not so unusual these days? He's painting Barack as a messianic figure, a representative of an oppressed people, and painting Hilary as a representative of the oppressing class...but that's the facts, Jack!

I regard Wright's heightened rhetoric as customary in the context and see nothing offensive in it toward anyone. In fact, I like that this guy is working from the Bible and relating the historical context in which Jesus lived to the present day. That's what I think a good preacher should do, help others to contextualize their religious texts to keep their faith alive as part of an everyday on-going experience rather than something dead and sequestered in a few hours of ritual observance.

[Barry]

He said something like, "They want us to sing God Bless America. Well I say God Damn America," after running down a list of why the U.S. is such a major source of the world's evil. Obama is running for President. I'm uncomfortable with a possible president relying on a guy who apparently can't stand the country and doesn't seem to be too fond of white people (and I can imagine what he thinks of Jews) as a spiritual adviser, if that's actually the case. I think he should have denounced him in stronger terms. As I said, the crazy uncle analogy that he used to make light of it doesn't hold water. If this and his wife's comments on being proud of the country for the first time are played up, it may play well with some segments of the longtime Democratic base, but it won't with most of the country.

And from a dispassionate, political standpoint, I think Obama is nuts to not completely denounce the guy (call it a Sister Soldier moment times two). Even if McCain wouldn't want his own campaign doing it, I can imagine some conservative advocacy group running an add showing this speech with Obama's tame-until-now denouncement of this guy if he doesn't take a stronger stand.

[Donald Isler]

And this Jewish supporter of Obama says Obama had the guts to speak of "Israel's unshakeable support for Israel" in Ramallah..................


Haaretz
Lasst update - 14:30 14/03/2008


But did you know he's a Muslim?

By Bradley Burston

Mel Levine, a key Mideast policy advisor to Barack Obama, sits in the genteel courtyard of the American Colony Hotel in East Jerusalem. The former U.S. congressman is some 12,000 kilometers away from home, but even here, the viral rumor campaign is never far away. "Oddly enough, I've run into any number of people who, when I say I'm for Obama, say: 'Oh - did you know he's a Muslim?'

"A couple of Israelis I've spoken with - very smart, well-educated, thoughtful Israelis - told me that yesterday. I was a little taken aback, but why should I be surprised, when Americans tell me that all the time?"

Levine has seen his fair share of Israel-oriented American political infighting, having served as senior Mideast policy advisor to both Al Gore and John Kerry, as a board member of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) lobbying organization for six years, and as the author of the pre-Oslo Levine amendment, which conditioned any U.S. recognition of Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization on the PLO's recognition of Israel's right to exist and its rejection of terror.
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But he has never seen the likes of the ongoing mass e-mail campaigns, which have leveled a succession of allegations against Obama, branding the senator a secret anti-Semite, a closet Muslim who took his official oath of office with his hand on the Koran instead of the Bible, and a disciple of fiery Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, further alleging that several of Obama's Mideast policy advisors are pro-Palestinian haters of Israel.

"I've been involved in politics for quite a long time, and I've never quite seen anything like this before," Levine says of the e-mail campaigns. "It's offensive to me, particularly as a Jew who cares very deeply about Israel and bipartisan American support for Israel, because the e-mails are filled with lies, innuendos, distortions and misrepresentations about someone who has been, and is, an extremely good friend of Israel, a strong supporter of Israel, a good friend of the Jewish community, and someone who has been a leader in helping to repair black-Jewish relations in the United States in a courageous way."

E-mails portraying Obama as bad for the Jews appeared in great numbers ahead of hard-fought primaries in states with significant Jewish populations, such as California, New York and Ohio.

The Obama camp has worked intensively to counter e-mails hinting at or "proving" the Democratic senator's ties to Islam, among them the photo of a turban-clad Obama and a Fox News video clip of radio talk show host Bill Cunningham saying, "His parents called him Barack Hussein Obama, not me."

But the pro-Obama counterattack has been so vigorous that concerns have been raised of a possible backlash by U.S. Muslim voters, upset that Islam itself is being viewed as a stain. The responses of Muslims have varied, Levine notes. "Some have said 'it's really regrettable,' of the efforts expended to demonstrate that Obama is, in fact, a Christian. And some have said that it's not popular in America these days to be viewed as a Muslim."

Although Levine says Republicans are behind the bulk of the e-mails, and despite his long-standing fondness for Hillary and Bill Clinton, he is particularly incensed about the anti-Obama charges he traces to the New York senator's campaign. He bristles when asked about the comments of Clinton campaign senior advisor Ann Lewis, who recently suggested that Obama disavowed Farrakhan only when publicly induced to do so by Hillary Clinton, in Lewis' words, "in one of those moments of leadership."

"Ann should be ashamed of herself," responds Levine to the flap over Farrakhan, who has often been accused of anti-Semitism. "Ann is an old friend of mine, and she should be above that kind of inaccurate condescension." Obama "has been a consistent critic of Farrakhan throughout his career."

'I'm not a pacifist'

The night before speaking with Haaretz, Levine says he ate dinner with Israeli friends, one of whom asked him: "Would Obama be willing to use force to defend American interests?"

"I was astonished by the question. He's made it very, very clear, repeatedly, even in the speech that he made in 2002 opposing America's invasion of Iraq, which he gave basically to a group of pacifists. He said 'Let me be very clear. I'm not a pacifist. It's not that I don't believe in war. I don't believe in dumb wars.'"

Obama, Levine says, "fully understands that the greatest threat to Israel at this time is Iran, and that Iran's ability to obtain a nuclear weapon is completely unacceptable. He's made absolutely clear that his priorities with regard to Iran are to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons, to stop Iran from continuing to support terror, and to stop Iran from threatening Israel's existence."

What differentiates Obama's approach is that he believes in a combination of "aggressive diplomacy" and a willingness to use force, Levine maintains. "He feels that if you have opened with aggressive diplomacy, it gives you better credibility with your friends, to help you to accomplish your objectives.

"If he uses both carrots and sticks, and says to the Iranian leadership, 'Look, if you do the things that we have been pressing you to do, you will be welcomed back into the community of nations. And if you don't do them, we keep all options on the table, including the use of military force.'" If Obama uses that approach at the outset, Levine says, he stands a much greater chance of getting Europe and the Arab nations "to support whatever sticks need to be used, if the carrots don't work."

Given the tenor of the e-mails, which suggest that Obama would readily negotiate with Hamas, Levine says that many people voice surprise when they learn of the senator's true stance. "He doesn't believe we should talk to or negotiate with Hamas until Hamas accepts the famous three conditions" (the third was that the PLO honor past UN decisions regarding Israel) which Levine himself wrote into U.S. law in 1983, barring the U.S. from negotiating with the PLO unless and until it accepted them. "Obama insists on those conditions."

Obama in Ramallah

If American primary campaigns are, to an extent, a clash of opposing advisors, the issue of who is advising Obama on the Middle East has become a centerpiece of the anti-Obama e-mails.

Even a seasoned political observer, Martin Peretz, editor in chief of the liberal magazine The New Republic, appears to have been taken in by the e-fueled rumors, writing of Obama and his advisors in late December: "And, frankly, I get the shudders since he has indicated that, among others, they would be Zbigniew Brzezinski - and Robert O. Malley.

"The most horrific name on Obama's list," Peretz added, "is Malley's" - referring to the former Arab-Israeli affairs aide to Bill Clinton whom Peretz would later describe as a "rabid hater of Israel." In a subsequent column, which said that Israel supporters could, in fact, trust Obama, Peretz acknowledged that "Malley is not and has never been a Middle East advisor to Barack Obama."

The Obama campaign has worked overtime to flatly deny that Brzezinski and Malley are advisors to the senator. At the same time, both the Clinton and Obama bandwagons continue to court endorsements seen as attractive to Jewish voters, with former U.S. ambassador to Israel Martin Indyk backing Clinton, and Indyk's successor, Daniel Kurtzer, now openly supporting Obama.

Levine himself acted as an advisor to Obama for six months before making the decision not only to advise him, but to endorse him. The decision, when it came, was wholehearted, he says. "One of the things that makes me as comfortable with him as I am is that I have now been with him enough times, and heard him enough times, spontaneously and personally and on his own, talk about his sacrosanct commitment to the security of Israel.

"And it doesn't matter where he is when he makes these statements," he adds. On one of the occasions when Obama spoke publicly of "America's unshakable commitment to Israel," he did so in Ramallah.

If Obama wins the Democratic nomination and faces Republican nominee Senator John McCain in November, what will his message to pro-Israel voters be?

Levine: "First of all, he references his consistent track record as one of Israel's very strong supporters, both in the Senate and before; he reminds people that nonpartisan groups like AIPAC have said that his record is perfect; then he talks about what he can accomplish that John McCain, as essentially a continuation of George Bush, cannot accomplish.

"Barack Obama is running, essentially, to radically alter George Bush's foreign policy, to re- engage America as a member in good standing of the community of nations, as a country which is not arrogant and focused on military preemption."

The moment Obama is sworn in as president of the United States, "America's image to the world is dramatically altered for the better," Levine says, adding that an Obama presidency would actually represent a return to traditional American values. "John McCain just doesn't have that ability, through no fault of his own. He is an American hero. But he's not a new face for the United States of America and around the world.

"Obama would strengthen America, strengthening America's ability to get our allies to assist in accomplishing our foreign policy objectives, one of the most important being support for Israel."

Turning to Israeli-Palestinian points of contention, Levine says: "What Obama has said is that these core issues need to be negotiated as a package in the context of a final negotiation, and that he doesn't want to prejudge how this final negotiating process will unfold.

"He has gone so far as to say that Israel must remain a Jewish state, thereby, I believe, essentially taking the right of return [for Palestinian refugees] off the table. But beyond that, it's been his view that the parties need to resolve, between themselves, how these major core issues get negotiated."

Outside the East Jerusalem hotel it is unseasonably warm, unseasonably beautiful, and eerily silent on the Friday morning after the Mercaz Harav yeshiva terrorist attack.

Asked to what extent he felt personally affected by the incident, Levine replies at once. "Totally. I always feel personally affected by what happens here, and especially when I am here.

"Look," he continues, his eyes welling up. "I'm an American, and I'm deeply committed to Israel's security. There's no city in the world I'd rather be in than Jerusalem, and I love it every moment I'm here.

"And when I'm having dinner at the home of very, very dear personal friends, two of my closest friends in the world, and sirens start going off, and every Israeli at the table knows that it means that Israelis have been killed, how can it not affect you?"

Uncharacteristically, Levine is at a loss. "I don't really know how to put it into words. I do get emotional at times like these."

[Barry]

This isn't exactly on point with regard to the extent that Obama should distance himself from his minister, Donald. But since you brought it up, relative to the general foreign policy community in the U.S., some of the foreign policy advisers Obama has relied on are known to not be staunch supporters of Israel. So what his policies would be in that regard are still a question mark. Having said that, I agree that the bogus messages and mailers that go out insinuating that he's a Muslim, associating him with Farakan, and all other such tactics are deplorable. I know McCain would never allow such tactics in his campaign, although I have no doubt conservative groups beyond his reach would; as would and I guess has Hillary's campaign.

On the other hand, it's not unfair to link him with this minister to some degree until he makes clear that the guy is not or is no longer any kind of spiritual adviser to him.

[Werner]

I'd agree, Barry, that eventually Obama will have to clarify his "disagreement" with that hatemongering cleric, whether he keps going to his church or not. And in view of all the rumors, hints, and innuendoes that kep flying around about not only Obama but any public figure in our era of blogs and other cyber gossip, it's getting harder and harder to keep focused on what's true and what's bogus.

I am much more impressed by a piece in today's NY Times (yes, that one again!) about Obama's mother and her influence on him. I suggest that anyone on the board try to find it - it's a portrait of an influence on Obama - and his half-sister - that could not be more different than the ranting we've heard on the Youtube piece by that rabblerouser who is supposed to be a spiritual adviser.

It is the life and influence of this mother who evidently had a profound influence on this man. The expansion of horizons as a human being she exemplified, I suspect, is far more vital than what we've heard in racial or sectarian preachings.

[Barry]

Huffington Post
March 14, 2008
On My Faith and My Church
Barack Obama

The pastor of my church, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who recently preached his last sermon and is in the process of retiring, has touched off a firestorm over the last few days. He's drawn attention as the result of some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents.

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

Because these particular statements by Rev. Wright are so contrary to my own life and beliefs, a number of people have legitimately raised questions about the nature of my relationship with Rev. Wright and my membership in the church. Let me therefore provide some context.

As I have written about in my books, I first joined Trinity United Church of Christ nearly twenty years ago. I knew Rev. Wright as someone who served this nation with honor as a United States Marine, as a respected biblical scholar, and as someone who taught or lectured at seminaries across the country, from Union Theological Seminary to the University of Chicago. He also led a diverse congregation that was and still is a pillar of the South Side and the entire city of Chicago. It's a congregation that does not merely preach social justice but acts it out each day, through ministries ranging from housing the homeless to reaching out to those with HIV/AIDS.

Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

Let me repeat what I've said earlier. All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country.

With Rev. Wright's retirement and the ascension of my new pastor, Rev. Otis Moss, III, Michelle and I look forward to continuing a relationship with a church that has done so much good. And while Rev. Wright's statements have pained and angered me, I believe that Americans will judge me not on the basis of what someone else said, but on the basis of who I am and what I believe in; on my values, judgment and experience to be President of the United States.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14.03.2008

Obama on the Reverend Wright Controversy

He just addressed it on the HuffPo.

This seems like as strong a statement as he can put out at this point. It doesn't implausibly distance him from a man that he's been tied to for 20 years (e.g., "I haven't had more than two or three five-minute conversations with him in my life") but does invoke a distinction a lot of church-going Americans can relate to, which is the distinction between a religious leader's religious views and his political views.

Whether or not this explanation does the trick depends on two things, I guess: 1.) Most obviously, whether Obama has really never heard Wright preach this kind of stuff. If Obama is somehow placed at a sermon in which Wright went on one of his rants, it's going to be a disaster. (Then again, it would have been a disaster with or without his HuffPo statement.) 2.) How plausible it is that Obama wouldn't have known about Wright's, er, greatest hits. Obama strongly implies he didn't know his pastor had a habit of giving nutty sermons up until the outset of his presidential campaign. Is that believable? Is there any way to disprove it? If the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively, then he'll weather this. If not, it could get uncomfortable. *

--Noam Scheiber
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stum ... versy.aspx

*I agree with this analysis. My first thought after reading Obama's explanation was that there isn't enough information to make a judgment on whether it's sufficient. Obviously it's not out of the realm of possibility, but it strikes me as a little implausible that Obama could be in this church with this minister for 20 years and not have a clue that the guy had these feelings or that he's never gone off on another political rant in all that time. Again, the extent to which I'm genuinely troubled by Obama's association with this man and church depends on information that isn't available beyond Obama's word at this point. But you can bet there will be people looking into whether there is a record of this minister's past sermons. So maybe we'll find out more.

[Barry]

I saw they were discussing this on Hardball while I was at work and just checked out the following video. The minister that Matthews interviews does a great job of laying out the issues and various angles, as well as saying what Obama needs to do. It's well worth a look if you've got 10-12 minutes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 9#23638059

[Fugu]

Huffington Post
March 14, 2008
On My Faith and My Church
Barack Obama

The pastor of my church, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who recently preached his last sermon and is in the process of retiring, has touched off a firestorm over the last few days. He's drawn attention as the result of some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents.

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

Because these particular statements by Rev. Wright are so contrary to my own life and beliefs, a number of people have legitimately raised questions about the nature of my relationship with Rev. Wright and my membership in the church. Let me therefore provide some context.

As I have written about in my books, I first joined Trinity United Church of Christ nearly twenty years ago. I knew Rev. Wright as someone who served this nation with honor as a United States Marine, as a respected biblical scholar, and as someone who taught or lectured at seminaries across the country, from Union Theological Seminary to the University of Chicago. He also led a diverse congregation that was and still is a pillar of the South Side and the entire city of Chicago. It's a congregation that does not merely preach social justice but acts it out each day, through ministries ranging from housing the homeless to reaching out to those with HIV/AIDS.

Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he's been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

Let me repeat what I've said earlier. All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country.

With Rev. Wright's retirement and the ascension of my new pastor, Rev. Otis Moss, III, Michelle and I look forward to continuing a relationship with a church that has done so much good. And while Rev. Wright's statements have pained and angered me, I believe that Americans will judge me not on the basis of what someone else said, but on the basis of who I am and what I believe in; on my values, judgment and experience to be President of the United States.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14.03.2008

Obama on the Reverend Wright Controversy

He just addressed it on the HuffPo.

This seems like as strong a statement as he can put out at this point. It doesn't implausibly distance him from a man that he's been tied to for 20 years (e.g., "I haven't had more than two or three five-minute conversations with him in my life") but does invoke a distinction a lot of church-going Americans can relate to, which is the distinction between a religious leader's religious views and his political views.

Whether or not this explanation does the trick depends on two things, I guess: 1.) Most obviously, whether Obama has really never heard Wright preach this kind of stuff. If Obama is somehow placed at a sermon in which Wright went on one of his rants, it's going to be a disaster. (Then again, it would have been a disaster with or without his HuffPo statement.) 2.) How plausible it is that Obama wouldn't have known about Wright's, er, greatest hits. Obama strongly implies he didn't know his pastor had a habit of giving nutty sermons up until the outset of his presidential campaign. Is that believable? Is there any way to disprove it? If the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively, then he'll weather this. If not, it could get uncomfortable. *

--Noam Scheiber
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stum ... versy.aspx

*I agree with this analysis. My first thought after reading Obama's explanation was that there isn't enough information to make a judgment on whether it's sufficient. Obviously it's not out of the realm of possibility, but it strikes me as a little implausible that Obama could be in this church with this minister for 20 years and not have a clue that the guy had these feelings or that he's never gone off on another political rant in all that time. Again, the extent to which I'm genuinely troubled by Obama's association with this man and church depends on information that isn't available beyond Obama's word at this point. But you can bet there will be people looking into whether there is a record of this minister's past sermons. So maybe we'll find out more.

I think that's enough to quell any issues that the right are trying to pin on him.

[Werner]

Not quite, Dan - you can't just blame the issue on the right - they didn't raise it.

I have seen no reason to believe that Obama holds the reprehensible views of that preacher - but there is no doubt that he will have to clearly and unequivocally separate himself from these opinions, or suffer the consequences.

[Fugu]

Not quite, Dan - you can't just blame the issue on the right - they didn't raise it.

I have seen no reason to believe that Obama holds the reprehensible views of that preacher - but there is no doubt that he will have to clearly and unequivocally separate himself from these opinions, or suffer the consequences.

Werner,

It is clear to me who brought this up (outside of this forum that is since it's become a national issue) in the first place...it has Karl Rove written all over it.

[Agnes Selby]

No Fugue, it has Obama written all over it.
If he is at odds with the purveyors of hate as demonstrated
by this church, he should resign from this church. There are other
churches where he can find religious sustenance.
After all, he has sat through these sermons for 20 years.
"It is time for a change".
-----------------

[Barry]

Well it didn't take long for his team to get the message that he needed to be more forceful than he was in the piece he posted earler. This is from an AP piece I spotted on Yahoo!:

<<<Obama called the statements appearing on television and the Internet "completely unacceptable and inexcusable" in a Fox News interview and said they didn't reflect the kinds of sermons he had heard from the Rev. Jeremiah Wright while attending services at Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ.

Obama, a member of the church since the early 1990s, said he would have quit Trinity had such statements been "the repeated tenor of the church. ... I wouldn't feel comfortable there." >>>

He'll probably get through this okay as long as nobody produces proof that he was present for one of the minister's rants.

[DavidRoss]

He said something like, "They want us to sing God Bless America. Well I say God Damn America," after running down a list of why the U.S. is such a major source of the world's evil.

I was shocked by this response, thinking I must have spaced out to have missed that, so I watched the clip again. He does not say anything remotely like that in this clip. I did see some links to other clips on the site suggesting that's what he said, so I viewed two of them. In both cases, there were excerpts rather blatantly taken out of context--not something that would inspire confidence in the trustworthiness of the editors' spin. In both, the segment started with Wright in mid-sentence speaking about the hypocrisy of a government persecuting minorities but claiming God's blessing, when such heinous injustices are not blessed by the God of the Bible, but condemned--damned--by him, at least according to his prophets.

Wright may be reprehensible, but not on the evidence of these video clips. What is reprehensible, based on their evidence, is the vicious decontextualizing of these excerpts so as to demonize Wright, and by association, Obama. And that sort of behavior is clearly condemned by the God of the Bible who said, "Thou shalt not bear false witness."

[Barry]

Here you are, David: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0Qd ... re=related

In case you're not sure, the two references at the end are to Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice.

[jack stowaway]

Here you are, David: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0Qd ... re=related

In case you're not sure, the two references at the end are to Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice.

That's a disturbing video. On that evidence, there's not much difference between the Rev Wright and Louis Farrakan. Both are merchants of hate. And profoundly racist to boot. When they attack 'America' they are really attacking '(White) America'.

The hypocrisy and ignorance of bigots such as Wright is monumental. He reminds me of his jihadic counterparts -- who condemn Israel, the US and the West in general and show a minute and particular knowledge of every Western 'sin' while blind to their own transgressions, the wheel of history and human nature in general.

If such men were forced to sit down and write an intellectually acceptable paper, providing footnotes and objective evidence for their outrageous claims, they would fail miserably. Outside the theatre of the pulpit they have no intellectual legitimacy. They peddle rants for proof and bigotry for conviction.

[Fugu]

It's still all taken out of context. A few snippets of a definitely disgusting view, by itself, makes for something even Obama has denounced. I would have liked to have heard the whole sermon, to see what he said leading up to his more flamboyant points.

[greymouse]

Here you are, David: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0Qd ... re=related

In case you're not sure, the two references at the end are to Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice.

This brings up an interesting question about Wright's views (aside from Obama's mess dealing with it). He said in another clip that Hillary has never been asked if she's "white enough". The implication was that it's wrong for blacks to persecute eachother for perceived levels of blackness.

But then he talks about Rice and Thomas as though they're sea monsters! Well heck, what is he saying? They're subhuman because they happen to be conservative? It makes me kind of mad.

Yes we still have racism problems in this country, and guys like this are making them worse. He's more or less saying that blacks need to be liberal or face ostracization from their own people. That's political oppression. How is a young black guy entering the political process supposed to feel if he has pro-life leanings or wants smaller government and taxes? I guess he has to be quiet or be called subhuman by the authority figures around him.

As for Obama, I believe him when he denounces these comments, and there's no doubt they were carefully cherry picked by people with a lot of time and money.

[Fugu]

J.C. Watts felt right at home with his conservative beliefs in Congress. He is young, african-american and while not a congressman any more, did quite well for himself. In fact, he is believed to be a possible running mate for McCain.

[Teresa B]

The clips are disturbing, and although I would give Obama the benefit of condemning his preacher's rants, and I would also concede that they may be cherry-picked and promulgated by Obama's enemies--

But I have to agree with the comment that Obama has been one of this man's "flock" for 20 years, and even if he condemns such rhetoric, he has obviously tolerated this philosophy all these years for some reason, or he would have walked away from this church. What is that reason?

Go Hillary.

Teresa

[DavidRoss]

Thanks, Barry. I agree with Dan that these excerpts are stripped from a context in which they may seem less unreasonable, but I agree with you that their implicit racism and Wright's own twisting of facts are more than a little disturbing--especially coming from the pulpit. As far as tarring Obama by association goes: I wouldn't attend a church whose pastor spewed such venomous hatred...but then I don't attend church anyway! And I doubt that any political campaign is behind the appearance of such clips on YouTube. In the age of minicams and the web, almost any idiot has access to such media. But when the suggestion about political dirty tricks was made, my first thought was "Hilary!"

[RebLem]

He's more or less saying that blacks need to be liberal or face ostracization from their own people. That's political oppression. How is a young black guy entering the political process supposed to feel if he has pro-life leanings or wants smaller government and taxes? I guess he has to be quiet or be called subhuman by the authority figures around him.

There is some of that in the black community, but not, I believe, on the issue of abortion. There is a very large segment of the African American community that is pro-life. One of them was the great American poet Gwendolyn Brooks (1917-2000) who, though born in Topeka, Ks, lived in Chicago all her life after her sixth month. She was much revered in both the black and white communities, and from 1968 to her death in 2000, she was the offical Poet Laureate of Illinois. Here is her poem, the mother, as just one example of her pro-life stance, which is, in fact, one of the major themes of her poetry.

the mother

by Gwendolyn Brooks

Abortions will not let you forget.
You remember the children you got that you did not get,
The damp small pulps with a little or with no hair,
The singers and workers who never handled the air.
You will never neglect or beat
Them, or silence or buy with a sweet.
You will never wind up the sucking-thumb
Or scuttle off ghosts that come.
You will never leave them, controlling your luscious sigh,
return for a snack of them, with gobbling mother-eye.

I have heard in the voices of the wind the voices of my dim killed children.
I have contracted. I have eased
My dim dears at the breasts they could never suck.
I have said, Sweets, if I sinned, if I seized
Your luck
And your lives from your unfinished reach,
If I stole your births and your names,
Your straight baby tears and your games,
Your stilted or lovely loves, your tumults, your marriages, aches, and your deaths,
If I poisoned the beginnings of your breaths,
Believe that even in my deliberateness I was not deliberate.
Though why should I whine,
Whine that the crime was other than mine?--
Since anyhow you are dead.
Or rather, instead,
You were never made.
But that too, I am afraid,
Is faulty: oh, what shall I say, how is the truth to be said?
You were born, you had body, you died.
It is just that you never giggled or planned or cried.

Believe me, I loved you all.
Believe me, I knew you, though faintly, and I loved, I loved you
All.

http://nmara77.blogspot.com/2007/05/rar ... poems.html

Posted on March 15, 2008, the 311th day before the end of the Cheney Administration. RebLem

[RebLem]

Gwendolyn Brooks didn't think too much of lots of white liberals, either. Here's another poem infused with the same seething resentment found in Jeremiah Wright's much cruder speeches, but perhaps it will reach some here as Wright's did not, because of her elegance and master of language. For those unfamiliar with the Chicago area, Lake Forest and Glencoe, referred to in the poem, are very prosperous, almost all white, North Shore suburbs of Chicago.

The Lovers of the Poor
by Gwendolyn Brooks

arrive. The Ladies from the Ladies' Betterment
League
Arrive in the afternoon, the late light slanting
In diluted gold bars across the boulevard brag
Of proud, seamed faces with mercy and murder hinting
Here, there, interrupting, all deep and debonair,
The pink paint on the innocence of fear;
Walk in a gingerly manner up the hall.
Cutting with knives served by their softest care,
Served by their love, so barbarously fair.
Whose mothers taught: You'd better not be cruel!
You had better not throw stones upon the wrens!
Herein they kiss and coddle and assault
Anew and dearly in the innocence
With which they baffle nature. Who are full,
Sleek, tender-clad, fit, fiftyish, a-glow, all
Sweetly abortive, hinting at fat fruit,
Judge it high time that fiftyish fingers felt
Beneath the lovelier planes of enterprise.
To resurrect. To moisten with milky chill.
To be a random hitching post or plush.
To be, for wet eyes, random and handy hem.
Their guild is giving money to the poor.
The worthy poor. The very very worthy
And beautiful poor. Perhaps just not too swarthy?
Perhaps just not too dirty nor too dim
Nor--passionate. In truth, what they could wish
Is--something less than derelict or dull.
Not staunch enough to stab, though, gaze for gaze!
God shield them sharply from the beggar-bold!
The noxious needy ones whose battle's bald
Nonetheless for being voiceless, hits one down.
But it's all so bad! and entirely too much for them.
The stench; the urine, cabbage, and dead beans,
Dead porridges of assorted dusty grains,
The old smoke, heavy diapers, and, they're told,
Something called chitterlings. The darkness. Drawn
Darkness, or dirty light. The soil that stirs.
The soil that looks the soil of centuries.
And for that matter the general oldness. Old
Wood. Old marble. Old tile. Old old old.
Note homekind Oldness! Not Lake Forest, Glencoe.
Nothing is sturdy, nothing is majestic,
There is no quiet drama, no rubbed glaze, no
Unkillable infirmity of such
A tasteful turn as lately they have left,
Glencoe, Lake Forest, and to which their cars
Must presently restore them. When they're done
With dullards and distortions of this fistic
Patience of the poor and put-upon.
They've never seen such a make-do-ness as
Newspaper rugs before! In this, this "flat,"
Their hostess is gathering up the oozed, the rich
Rugs of the morning (tattered! the bespattered . . . ),
Readies to spread clean rugs for afternoon.
Here is a scene for you. The Ladies look,
In horror, behind a substantial citizeness
Whose trains clank out across her swollen heart.
Who, arms akimbo, almost fills a door.
All tumbling children, quilts dragged to the floor
And tortured thereover, potato peelings, soft-
Eyed kitten, hunched-up, haggard, to-be-hurt.
Their League is allotting largesse to the Lost.
But to put their clean, their pretty money, to put
Their money collected from delicate rose-fingers
Tipped with their hundred flawless rose-nails seems . . .
They own Spode, Lowestoft, candelabra,
Mantels, and hostess gowns, and sunburst clocks,
Turtle soup, Chippendale, red satin "hangings,"
Aubussons and Hattie Carnegie. They Winter
In Palm Beach; cross the Water in June; attend,
When suitable, the nice Art Institute;
Buy the right books in the best bindings; saunter
On Michigan, Easter mornings, in sun or wind.
Oh Squalor! This sick four-story hulk, this fibre
With fissures everywhere! Why, what are bringings
Of loathe-love largesse? What shall peril hungers
So old old, what shall flatter the desolate?
Tin can, blocked fire escape and chitterling
And swaggering seeking youth and the puzzled wreckage
Of the middle passage, and urine and stale shames
And, again, the porridges of the underslung
And children children children. Heavens! That
Was a rat, surely, off there, in the shadows? Long
And long-tailed? Gray? The Ladies from the Ladies'
Betterment League agree it will be better
To achieve the outer air that rights and steadies,
To hie to a house that does not holler, to ring
Bells elsetime, better presently to cater
To no more Possibilities, to get
Away. Perhaps the money can be posted.
Perhaps they two may choose another Slum!
Some serious sooty half-unhappy home!--
Where loathe-lover likelier may be invested.
Keeping their scented bodies in the center
Of the hall as they walk down the hysterical hall,
They allow their lovely skirts to graze no wall,
Are off at what they manage of a canter,
And, resuming all the clues of what they were,
Try to avoid inhaling the laden air.

http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/gw ... oems/20577

Posted on March 15, 2008, the 311th day before the end of the Cheney Administration. RebLem

[Barry]

J.C. Watts felt right at home with his conservative beliefs in Congress. He is young, african-american and while not a congressman any more, did quite well for himself. In fact, he is believed to be a possible running mate for McCain.

He's from a very conservative state. You'll only know how Watts is accepted in the larger black community if he becomes a household name on a national scale.

[Wallingford]

Would you want this man to be your President's spiritual adviser???

No, but I'd want even less a divisive a**hole like Falwell influencing anyone. ('Hope Maggie The Maggot & Weaver The Weevil feasted on him well.)

[Agnes Selby]

Would you want this man to be your President's spiritual adviser???

No, but I'd want even less a divisive a**hole like Falwell influencing anyone. ('Hope Maggie The Maggot & Weaver The Weevil feasted on him well.)

-------------

Perhaps he was embalmed?!
--------------------

[Auntie Lynn]

Alors, as long as we are on the subject of Mr. O's relationships, one might well ask: Who do you want for First Lady? An ugly, contentious crab with an axe to grind like Michelle Obama or an absolute doll with style like Cindy McCain. There's been a lot of huffing and puffing over Slick Willie as First Gentleman...

She could be in there a long time, so it's worth considering...

BTW, I've never heard a bad word about Laura Bush ;-}

[piston]

A shaved Bill Clinton could look like a first lady....

[piston]

First Lady on Vicodin:

[piston]

First Lady with Vicodin withdrawal:

[RebLem]

Alors, as long as we are on the subject of Mr. O's relationships, one might well ask: Who do you want for First Lady? An ugly, contentious crab with an axe to grind like Michelle Obama or an absolute doll with style like Cindy McCain. There's been a lot of huffing and puffing over Slick Willie as First Gentleman...
She could be in there a long time, so it's worth considering...
BTW, I've never heard a bad word about Laura Bush ;-}

Jesus complained on the Cross that His Father had forsaken Him. He was pretty crabby, too--not to mention driving the moneylenders from the Temple. I'll bet that'd scare the crap out of Cindy McCain. What Mel Gibson missed in The Passion of the Christ was that the people in the courtyard screaming for Christ's hide were only incidentally Jews. Far more importantly, they were the John and Cindys of first century Jerusalem. Give us Barrabas, and pardon Scooter Libby.

Growing up on the mid-South Side of Chicago in the 60's and 70's, you tended to get a little crabby. I know. I started work as a public aid caseworker at an office at 47th and South Park (now re-named King Drive), right next to the old Regal Theater, in late May, 1968, when Michelle Obama was 4 years old. She grew up in South Shore, a neighborhood a few miles southeast of where I worked, a little more middle class than the one I worked in, but nevertheless, a hard scrabble kind of place by that time. I can tell you I met lots of crabby 4 year olds, but I can assure you they had good reason to be crabby. While Michelle Obama's family functioned better, by and large, than the ones who were my clients, she had to deal on the streets with some of the same sorts of folk I did. I can assure you, from personal experience, that can make people crabby.

Cindy Hensley McCain, on the other hand, grew up in Phoenix, AZ, the daughter of a man who owned and operated Hensley & Co., one of the largest Annheuser-Busch distributors in the country. She married John McCain the month after his divorce from his first wife, and financed her husband's first campaign for Congress from her trust fund. No wonder she's always been proud of her country.

Here's my standard for who would be the best First Lady: next time a mine collapses in West Virginia and kills 11 miners, who do you think will be able to relate best to their widows at the funeral? I'm betting on Michelle Obama.

Posted on March 16, 2008, the 310th day before the end of the Cheney Administration. RebLem

[Wallingford]

BTW, I've never heard a bad word about Laura Bush ;-}

Hey, after an ol' heifer like Barbara Bush, I'm prepared for anything.

[Barry]

Aunti's post on Michelle Obama was a cheap shot, so I don't mind the harsh response. But it's also fair to point out that it shouldn't be hard to find some pride in a country that has given her the chance to get the finest education and a great career (not to mention the many other things about the U.S. over the course of her lifetime that are worth being proud of).
Yes, I find it troubling if she really has such an overwhelmingly negative view of the country. I don't think that's a great trait for a first lady; although it's not something that would influence my vote one way or the other.
In fact, in an email, our dear resting leader said someone theorized to her that if Michelle Obama really feels that way, maybe they've stayed in that church for 20 years more at her insistence than his.

[RebLem]

BTW, I've never heard a bad word about Laura Bush ;-}

Hey, after an ol' heifer like Barbara Bush, I'm prepared for anything.

Barbara always reminded me of the guy on the Quaker Oats box.

Posted on March 16, 2008, the 310th day before the end of the Cheney Administration. RebLem

[Werner]

On the other hand, I see no point in transferrring our many criticims of GWB on to his wife. As far as I've been able to see, in her many [public appearances she's been flawless.

[RebLem]

On the other hand, I see no point in transferrring our many criticims of GWB on to his wife. As far as I've been able to see, in her many [public appearances she's been flawless.

And, when she visits a classroom, she reads to the kids. When W visits a classroom, the kids read to him.

Posted on March 16, 2008, the 310th day before the end of the Cheney Administration. RebLem