Bach's organ music

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:23 am

Couldn't find a thread about this in the 'new' section of the board. That's why I began this one. Have been listening a lot to Bach's organ music during the last months. Plenty of treasures to be found.

One of organists I've listened to is James Kibbie. He plays on historic organs in Germany.
Check this site:

http://www.blockmrecords.org/bach/index.htm

Nice initiative from the University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance!

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:53 am

I'll download some of that today and then get back to this thread. I don't think I ever welcomed our newer poster Marc, so welcome!

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:58 am

Marc, welcome to this great and friendly forum. Have fun here.

P. S. Let me put in a good word for the eminent German Organist, Helmut Walcha. He was my introduction to Bach Organ treasures a half century ago and his 'complete' DG CD set is still wonderful. I also have Peter Hurford's magnificent traversal of Bach's Organ works in a Decca CD set

premont · Post by **premont** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:45 am

stenka razin wrote:P. S. Let me put in a good word for the eminent German Organist, Helmut Walcha. He was my introduction to Bach Organ treasures a half century ago and his 'complete' DG CD set is still wonderful. I also have Peter Hurford's magnificent traversal of Bach's Organ works in a Decca CD set

Nowadays I prefer historically informed performances, but still I often return to Helmut Walcha and (more seldom) to Peter Hurford and even Walter Kraft because of their individual and authoritative interpretations.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:57 am

premont wrote:
stenka razin wrote:P. S. Let me put in a good word for the eminent German Organist, Helmut Walcha. He was my introduction to Bach Organ treasures a half century ago and his 'complete' DG CD set is still wonderful. I also have Peter Hurford's magnificent traversal of Bach's Organ works in a Decca CD set
Nowadays I prefer historically informed performances, but still I often return to Helmut Walcha and (more seldom) to Peter Hurford and even Walter Kraft because of their individual and authoritative interpretations.

I still hang on to my complete Walter Kraft Bach (LP). There's no gainsaying the wonderful sound of the historic organs he played, nor do I find much to fault about his technique or tempos.

(In case anyone is wondering, while there are a number subtle differences between the "old" and "new/old" school of performance of these works, the main gross distinction is that the earlier generation bought into the notion of crescendo, usually by augmenting registration, within a work, especially one of Bach's long fugues. In a historically informed performance, either the entire fugue is played with the same registration throughout, or any distinction are dealt with by manual changes that correspond roughly to the alternation between concerto and ripieno groups in a concerto grosso.)

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:55 am

OK, preliminary observations based on a sample of "test pieces":

Slow movement of Trio Sonata in c minor. Shows trend current among some modern organists of using a rubato-like approach to the melody. Excessive (IMO) use of prolongations and rallentandos. Baroque tunes come with their own expressive shape, and IMO such movements should be played "straight" (and many organists, thank God still do so).

Fugue in e minor (Wedge). Unexceptionable. Wonderful.

Passacaglia and fugue in c minor. Excellent, but that organ is tuned differently (I am not an expert on these tuning methods). I'm afraid I'm addicted to equal temperament, and to me a lot of this sounds just plain out of tune. Listen to it: I'll bet anyone with any ears at all can detect that the first entry of the manuals sounds flat.

I'll definitely be downloading (a lot) more. A couple of my "usual questions" have not been answered yet.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:21 pm

jbuck919 wrote:I'll download some of that today and then get back to this thread. I don't think I ever welcomed our newer poster Marc, so welcome!

Thanks, John.
It's fun to read I'm considered a newer member. But I admit: I'm not a very regular poster.
You and I have met before on this board, discussing about contemporaries of Bach.

stenka razin wrote:Marc, welcome to this great and friendly forum. Have fun here.

Thanks to you, too.

jbuck919 wrote: [.... comments on James Kibbie ....]
I'll definitely be downloading (a lot) more. A couple of my "usual questions" have not been answered yet.

Thanks so far for your interesting comments.
It's the main raison I started this thread, for sheer egoistic reason

. I'm not a very experienced organ listerner, compared to a lot of other members around here. So I'm only curious what others think.
Please, let us/me know what you think about Kibbie and others. Despite my lack of listening experience, I'll be pig-headed and post some of my opinions, too.

For instance, I was a bit surprised by the almost 'sprightly' interpretation of the Fantasia and fugue in C minor, BWV 537. I had to get used to it, but now I kinda like it. The piece is one of my favourites anyway.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:22 pm

jbuck919 wrote: I'll definitely be downloading (a lot) more. A couple of my "usual questions" have not been answered yet.

And? Could you tell us something more?
Just curious .... although a life with more questions than answers is far more exciting, of course.

I've been listening (a.o.) to some Rübsam tonight. BWV 541 & 536 on the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, Netherlands.
Beautiful organ .... and enjoyed Rübsam's playing in BWV 536, but BWV 541 (especially the Prelude) is too much 'applying the brakes' for my taste.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:55 pm

Count me as a Helmut Walcha Fan...ArkivMusik has his Mono Cycle at $17.99 for ten discs...

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... _id=134516

val · Post by **val** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:19 am

Walcha is extraordinary in the Art of the Fugue and in the 3rd part of the Clavierübung ("Lutherian Mass").

Regarding the Leipzig Chorals I prefer Pierre Bardon, and Andre Isoir in the Orgelbüchlein.

Chapuis, in the Preludes & Fugues uses sometimes fast tempi, too fast. But he is very clear,we can ear all polyphonic plans. But, again, Walcha is my favorite, with better phrasings.

Marie-Claire Alain recorded the complete work, at least three times. I have the 2nd and some recordings of the 3rd (ERATO). She reminds Walcha, in some moments, and her version of the Passacaglia, although less impressive than Chapuis, has a deeper spirituality and sense of greatness.

Regarding the works with greater virtuosity, Koopman or Foccroule are the best, in special in the Toccatas and the Organ Concertos.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:11 am

As well as compete sets by Hurford, Herrick and Walcha (both) and I have a couple of Andre Isoir's recordings, the Art of the Fugue, the Trio Sonatas which I play a lot, and the veritable Greatest Hit's Package, my favourite of Bach's Organ Works are the Neumeister Chorales, I could play them every day for the rest of my life and would never tire of them...

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:46 am

Chalkperson wrote:Count me as a Helmut Walcha Fan...ArkivMusik has his Mono Cycle at $17.99 for ten discs...

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... _id=134516

Chalky, thank you for the heads up. Are these recordings the same ones in the regular DG Original Masters Walcha 10 CD set available in the USA and in the EU? I cannot believe this price. They are giving it away, my friend.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:31 pm

Chalkperson wrote:[....] my favourite of Bach's Organ Works are the Neumeister Chorales, I could play them every day for the rest of my life and would never tire of them...

That's nice! One very rarely hears such exclusive praise for them.
But what about the Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644? I myself certainly like those gems, too.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:54 pm

stenka razin wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:Count me as a Helmut Walcha Fan...ArkivMusik has his Mono Cycle at $17.99 for ten discs...

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... _id=134516

Chalky, thank you for the heads up. Are these recordings the same ones in the regular DG Original Masters Walcha 10 CD set available in the USA and in the EU? I cannot believe this price. They are giving it away, my friend.

I assume that they are the same, I have the DG Box, with them being Public Domain in Europe my guess is that Meridian "borrowed" them...

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:58 pm

Marc wrote:
Chalkperson wrote: my favourite of Bach's Organ Works are the Neumeister Chorales, I could play them every day for the rest of my life and would never tire of them...
That's nice! One very rarely hears such exclusive praise for them.
But what about the Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644? I myself certainly like those gems, too.

They too are great works, in both Sets I think Christopher Herrick on Hyperion produces the finest readings...

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:17 pm

Marc wrote:
jbuck919 wrote: I'll definitely be downloading (a lot) more. A couple of my "usual questions" have not been answered yet.
And? Could you tell us something more?
Just curious .... although a life with more questions than answers is far more exciting, of course.

I've been listening (a.o.) to some Rübsam tonight. BWV 541 & 536 on the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, Netherlands.
Beautiful organ .... and enjoyed Rübsam's playing in BWV 536, but BWV 541 (especially the Prelude) is too much 'applying the brakes' for my taste.

Unfortunately I did (obviously) forget about this, when it was my intention eventually to download the whole thing.

I can say on the basis of what I have heard, which I believe is enough to extrapolate, that I find the performances in general excellent, and I do love the organs (not a very original thought). If I were to mention two more "test cases":

1. The Prelude and Fugue in b minor observes proper terrace dynamics in that he switches to another manual for a section where it was clearly intended (in this case by the dropping out of the pedal). There are several works in which organists do not do this because it is difficult to know the exact note where one is supposed to start playing on the other manual and then switch back. They take the lazy way out by playing the whole thing in organo pleno, which is not unmusical, but is unstylistic. One wouldn't expect Bach to lack subtlety, to tell the player, so to speak, "here the music goes plop so you'll know that a manual change is needed."

2. Speaking of the music going plop, I downloaded another test piece, the BWV 662 setting of Allein Gott in der Hoeh sei Ehr, one of Bach's favorite chorales. I use it for two things: Did he get the ornamentation right? And is he using a hesitation style for expressiveness? Unfortunately, the answers are no, yes. In both cases he is following a modern practice of no authenticity or documentable validity of which I am aware. The ornamentation thing is subtle and not worth worrying about, but the hesitation style is another matter. Bach's slower organ works don't require "rubato" for want of a better word, i.e., slowing down now and then as though to shout "Expressive writing here, folks!" They contain their own expressiveness that is best brought out by adherence to a constant tempo. The only tempo alteration that should ever grace a work by Bach is an extremely modest rallentando at the end, and a slow piece does not need even that.

None of what I have written disqualifies this as an excellent set. It would be a doltish organist indeed who attempted a complete Bach and didn't get at least a great deal of it right.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:21 pm

Chalkperson wrote:My favourite of Bach's Organ Works are the Neumeister Chorales, I could play them every day for the rest of my life and would never tire of them...

Please, please tell me that is not what you meant to say.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:38 pm

jbuck919 wrote:[review of James Kibbie's Online Bach edition]
None of what I have written disqualifies this as an excellent set. It would be a doltish organist indeed who attempted a complete Bach and didn't get at least a great deal of it right.

John, thanks for the review. I enjoyed reading it, and in general I understand your comments. Me too not that fond of rubato in Bach, although I must admit that in keyboard works I doesn't upset me that much, compared to other Bach compositions. Dunno why really .... but anyway: this generous view has cost me some extra money during the last half year or so, because now I find myself even willing to buy the stop-and-go interpretations of Wolfgang Rübsam (Naxos) ....

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:50 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:My favourite of Bach's Organ Works are the Neumeister Chorales, I could play them every day for the rest of my life and would never tire of them...
Please, please tell me that is not what you meant to say.

Sorry, John, it's perfect chill out material, I love starting the day with them...I have tons of Organ Recordings and what I was saying is that I never tire of these peaceful masterpieces, IMHO of course...

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:00 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:My favourite of Bach's Organ Works are the Neumeister Chorales, I could play them every day for the rest of my life and would never tire of them...
Please, please tell me that is not what you meant to say.
Sorry, John, it's perfect chill out material, I love starting the day with them...I have tons of Organ Recordings and what I was saying is that I never tire of these peaceful masterpieces, IMHO of course...

You're sure you don't mean the Schuebler Chorales? The Neumeister Chorales have only been known for about 25 years, and they are almost juvenilia. They are not even represented in many "complete" sets. Plus, there are so many of them.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:57 pm

jbuck919 wrote:You're sure you don't mean the Schuebler Chorales? The Neumeister Chorales have only been known for about 25 years, and they are almost juvenilia. They are not even represented in many "complete" sets. Plus, there are so many of them.

I have Christopher Herrick's disc on Hyperion, there are only a couple of recordings of them anyway, sure the Schubler Chorales are wonderful and probably superior works, it's the child like simplicity that I like, whenever I need a slow and peaceful start to the day I play them, and at a reduced volume too...

Early - yet highly innovative - Bach in attractive performances, enhanced by the beautiful sound of this Metzler organ.

These 38 chorale preludes come from a collection of 83 pieces compiled in the 18th century by Johann Gottfried Neumeister. The collection eventually made its way to Yale University, where it was discovered by the Bach scholar Christoph Wolff. Bach's preludes are early works, and as Wolff so aptly wrote: 'Already there is innovation. There is a degree of originality and sophistication that is really quite remarkable.'

Herrick gives clear, attractive performances with rhythmic articulation and lively ornamentation. Some listeners may find his playing too calculated and self-conscious; however, these are sprightly readings, free of excessive mannerisms. The most enjoyable aspect of the CD is the way Herrick gives each chorale prelude its own distinct sound world, despite having only a nine-stop, one-manual Metzler organ. This instrument is one of the most beautiful organs I have ever heard, and Herrick exploits every conceivable combination of stops to achieve a pleasing variety of colour.

The organ is well recorded, too, though some may find it a little too closely miked. The informative booklet includes a list of the stops which Herrick uses for each prelude. To quote from the booklet: 'There is tremendous variety and imagination in this collection, and these little-known pieces surely deserve to be more widely appreciated ... 'This CD indeed succeeds in converting me to these preludes; I'll definitely add them to my repertoire this year.

Christopher Nickol

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... m_id=34319

premont · Post by **premont** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:27 pm

jbuck919 wrote:I use it for two things: Did he get the ornamentation right? And is he using a hesitation style for expressiveness? Unfortunately, the answers are no, yes. In both cases he is following a modern practice of no authenticity or documentable validity of which I am aware. The ornamentation thing is subtle and not worth worrying about, but the hesitation style is another matter. Bach's slower organ works don't require "rubato" for want of a better word, i.e., slowing down now and then as though to shout "Expressive writing here, folks!" They contain their own expressiveness that is best brought out by adherence to a constant tempo. The only tempo alteration that should ever grace a work by Bach is an extremely modest rallentando at the end, and a slow piece does not need even that.

Where in the written contemporary sources do you find some confirmation of your point of view?

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:37 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:You're sure you don't mean the Schuebler Chorales? The Neumeister Chorales have only been known for about 25 years, and they are almost juvenilia. They are not even represented in many "complete" sets. Plus, there are so many of them.
I have Christopher Herrick's disc on Hyperion, there are only a couple of recordings of them anyway, sure the Schubler Chorales are wonderful and probably superior works, it's the child like simplicity that I like, whenever I need a slow and peaceful start to the day I play them, and at a reduced volume too...

By golly, when you put it that way it does make sense.

Incidentally, the first performance of these was at Yale with the well-known Harvard and Yale organists Ferris and Krigbaum (respectively) performing. I heard it over the radio; it was god-awful, as in wrong-note awful.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:51 pm

premont wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:I use it for two things: Did he get the ornamentation right? And is he using a hesitation style for expressiveness? Unfortunately, the answers are no, yes. In both cases he is following a modern practice of no authenticity or documentable validity of which I am aware. The ornamentation thing is subtle and not worth worrying about, but the hesitation style is another matter. Bach's slower organ works don't require "rubato" for want of a better word, i.e., slowing down now and then as though to shout "Expressive writing here, folks!" They contain their own expressiveness that is best brought out by adherence to a constant tempo. The only tempo alteration that should ever grace a work by Bach is an extremely modest rallentando at the end, and a slow piece does not need even that.
Where in the written contemporary sources do you find some confirmation of your point of view?

That is a good and a fair question. The ornamentation thing is based on standard Baroque-era explanations, including those by both Bach and his son CPE. Ornamentation performance practice tends to be stubborn in its refusal to accept literal interpretations, particularly in the area of dividing the beat with an appoggiatura, perhaps because it is difficult for modern people to understand why Bach sometimes wrote out his ornaments and sometimes (as in the BWV 622) used ornament symbols. Surely, the symbols when he used them must mean something different than Bach plainly said or he would have written them out. Wrong. The answer to why he did one thing in one place and another in another is, IMO, no inherent reason at all; he just did.

The interpretation matter is more a suspicion of the sources of the modern practice than an ability to cite a documentary tradition to support the time-honored way of performing these pieces. I think that some people eager to make an academic career have dug into secondary sources like Heinichen and found what they consider "revolutionary" ideas about how things were actually performed in the Baroque. One problem with these sources is that when they do address performance practice it is often difficult to tell exactly what they mean.

I feel strongly, but can only justify it subjectively and with the support of countless other performers who have been guided the same way, that Bach in his keyboard works more than any of the other great composers suggests his own interpretation in the notes themselves.

Post by **Lance** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:30 pm

John, like you, I cannot endure UNequal temperaments. For me the beauty in EQUAL temperament is that everything sounds in tune! I am often asked to tune harpsichords at much lower pitch and I can live with that as long as the temperaments are equal.

jbuck919 wrote:OK, preliminary observations based on a sample of "test pieces":

Slow movement of Trio Sonata in c minor. Shows trend current among some modern organists of using a rubato-like approach to the melody. Excessive (IMO) use of prolongations and rallentandos. Baroque tunes come with their own expressive shape, and IMO such movements should be played "straight" (and many organists, thank God still do so).

Fugue in e minor (Wedge). Unexceptionable. Wonderful.

Passacaglia and fugue in c minor. Excellent, but that organ is tuned differently (I am not an expert on these tuning methods). I'm afraid I'm addicted to equal temperament, and to me a lot of this sounds just plain out of tune. Listen to it: I'll bet anyone with any ears at all can detect that the first entry of the manuals sounds flat.

I'll definitely be downloading (a lot) more. A couple of my "usual questions" have not been answered yet.

Post by **Lance** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:33 pm

Me, too, on Bach's organ works as performed by Helmut Walcha, the blind organist/harspchordist. I frequently listen to Walcha on a marvelous DGG-Arkhiv 12-CD set [419 904] that has since been reissued in a lesser-priced version. Anything of Bach I've heard with Carl Weinrich is also outstanding. But I am going to start a thread on E. Power Biggs and Virgil Fox to determine what organ aficionados think about them - and Bach!

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:34 pm

Lance wrote:John, like you, I cannot endure UNequal temperaments. For me the beauty in EQUAL temperament is that everything sounds in tune! I am often asked to tune harpsichords at much lower pitch and I can live with that as long as the temperaments are equal.

Changing the tuning of an organ is ever so slightly more difficult.

(It has been done.)

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:58 am

Lance wrote:Me, too, on Bach's organ works as performed by Helmut Walcha, the blind organist/harspchordist. I frequently listen to Walcha on a marvelous DGG-Arkhiv 12-CD set [419 904] that has since been reissued in a lesser-priced version.

Walcha is great. Period.

His 10cd mono set (1947-1952) is also very impressive, with really good sound quality.
I also have a stereo DG 2cd of Die Kunst der Fuge. I think it must be the same recording that was mentioned by val. This monumental composition works very well on the organ, IMHO .... although Rübsam´s performance on Naxos is a bit too uneven for my taste.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:36 pm

Marc wrote:
Lance wrote:Me, too, on Bach's organ works as performed by Helmut Walcha, the blind organist/harspchordist. I frequently listen to Walcha on a marvelous DGG-Arkhiv 12-CD set [419 904] that has since been reissued in a lesser-priced version.
Walcha is great. Period.
His 10cd mono set (1947-1952) is also very impressive, with really good sound quality.
I also have a stereo DG 2cd of Die Kunst der Fuge. I think it must be the same recording that was mentioned by val. This monumental composition works very well on the organ, IMHO .... although Rübsam´s performance on Naxos is a bit too uneven for my taste.

Ordered Walcha's 12cd-stereo set, too.
But the delivery estimate is rather lengthy: September 1, 2009 - October 2, 2009. Well, something to look forward to!

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:44 pm

Marc wrote:
Marc wrote:
Lance wrote:Me, too, on Bach's organ works as performed by Helmut Walcha, the blind organist/harspchordist. I frequently listen to Walcha on a marvelous DGG-Arkhiv 12-CD set [419 904] that has since been reissued in a lesser-priced version.
Walcha is great. Period.
His 10cd mono set (1947-1952) is also very impressive, with really good sound quality.
I also have a stereo DG 2cd of Die Kunst der Fuge. I think it must be the same recording that was mentioned by val. This monumental composition works very well on the organ, IMHO .... although Rübsam´s performance on Naxos is a bit too uneven for my taste.
Ordered Walcha's 12cd-stereo set, too.
But the delivery estimate is rather lengthy: September 1, 2009 - October 2, 2009. Well, something to look forward to!

Who did you order it from? I ask on the chance that it might come faster from a source you didn't check but that one or more other poster might know about.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:07 am

jbuck919 wrote:Who did you order it from? I ask on the chance that it might come faster from a source you didn't check but that one or more other poster might know about.

Ordered at Amazon.com. The price ($58.43 = eventually € 48,07/brand new/factory sealed) made it attractive for a European guy

.
It's sold by Import-CDs, feedback rating 98%. I also checked other sites, like jpc.de, presto classical UK, amazon.de, amazon.co.uk, mdt.co.uk and the DG site itself. But this was the best offer I could find. I just have to be patient, I guess.

But if anyone knows of an attractive fast-delivery site .... be my guest and advise me, please!

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:58 am

Marc wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Who did you order it from? I ask on the chance that it might come faster from a source you didn't check but that one or more other poster might know about.
Ordered at Amazon.com. The price ($58.43 = eventually € 48,07/brand new/factory sealed) made it attractive for a European guy .
It's sold by Import-CDs, feedback rating 98%. I also checked other sites, like jpc.de, presto classical UK, amazon.de, amazon.co.uk, mdt.co.uk and the DG site itself. But this was the best offer I could find. I just have to be patient, I guess.

But if anyone knows of an attractive fast-delivery site .... be my guest and advise me, please!

Well, it's more expensive, but if you're into downloading your music, you can have it this afternoon (EST, that is).

http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=433484

It is interesting how reprints are divided between dirt cheap and overpriced, and IMO either price we are talking about is in the latter category for this item. Of course, if it is OOP and you really want it and they're not being undersold, they do rather have you by the you-know-what. Good luck.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:22 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Marc wrote:Ordered at Amazon.com. The price ($58.43 = eventually € 48,07/brand new/factory sealed) made it attractive for a European guy .
It's sold by Import-CDs, feedback rating 98%. I also checked other sites, like jpc.de, presto classical UK, amazon.de, amazon.co.uk, mdt.co.uk and the DG site itself. But this was the best offer I could find. I just have to be patient, I guess.

But if anyone knows of an attractive fast-delivery site .... be my guest and advise me, please!
Well, it's more expensive, but if you're into downloading your music, you can have it this afternoon (EST, that is).

http://www.hbdirect.com/album_detail.php?pid=433484

It is interesting how reprints are divided between dirt cheap and overpriced, and IMO either price we are talking about is in the latter category for this item. Of course, if it is OOP and you really want it and they're not being undersold, they do rather have you by the you-know-what. Good luck.

Thanks for the info .... but considering the price, I don't mind waiting for this gem. Luckilly I already have Walcha's mono box set and Die Kunst der Fuge, not to mention the other discs in da house that are worth listening to!

Like (on topic) French André Isoir or Dutch Ewald Kooiman.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:13 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:My favourite of Bach's Organ Works are the Neumeister Chorales, I could play them every day for the rest of my life and would never tire of them...
Please, please tell me that is not what you meant to say.
Sorry, John, it's perfect chill out material, I love starting the day with them...I have tons of Organ Recordings and what I was saying is that I never tire of these peaceful masterpieces, IMHO of course...

I love ending the day with them (on an irregular basis, I have to admit).
I use the 2cd-set with Kay Johannsen for that time of day. They're not really hectic performances, and therefore very useful for boarding the night.

Oh, by the way:
Old threads do not have to die.

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:14 pm

You know, Marc, I'm both grateful and frustrated that you re-opened this thread. Grateful that I have some time this afternoon to go back and finish downloading all the selections I want (which is a lot), and frustrated that this is no longer a straightforward matter. On my old computer, they just automatically played and at the same time got saved in an I-Tunes library. Now they play all right (with Windows Media Player), but I don't know how to save them (or find them if they are saving automatically), and if I switch to I-tunes it looks like it's downloading but I get neither sound nor saved file.

Why are these things so complicated? Anyone care to come to the aid of poor old JBuck who ain't as literate about this stuff as he should be? I really do want to have those performances (not to mention anything else I might like to download). Be patient with me--I eventually figured out how to get that pic of Teresa and me loaded.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:01 pm

jbuck919 wrote:You know, Marc, I'm both grateful and frustrated that you re-opened this thread. Grateful that I have some time this afternoon to go back and finish downloading all the selections I want (which is a lot), and frustrated that this is no longer a straightforward matter. On my old computer, they just automatically played and at the same time got saved in an I-Tunes library. Now they play all right (with Windows Media Player), but I don't know how to save them (or find them if they are saving automatically), and if I switch to I-tunes it looks like it's downloading but I get neither sound nor saved file.

Why are these things so complicated? Anyone care to come to the aid of poor old JBuck who ain't as literate about this stuff as he should be? I really do want to have those performances (not to mention anything else I might like to download). Be patient with me--I eventually figured out how to get that pic of Teresa and me loaded.

I wish I could help, I only know about Mac's, I have not a clue about PC's..Henry Slofstra may know...on the other hand Marc just pointed me at a Set of the Neumeister Chorales that I have never heard, so i'm most grateful he resurrected this Thread...

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:34 pm

jbuck919 wrote:You know, Marc, I'm both grateful and frustrated that you re-opened this thread. Grateful that I have some time this afternoon to go back and finish downloading all the selections I want (which is a lot), and frustrated that this is no longer a straightforward matter. On my old computer, they just automatically played and at the same time got saved in an I-Tunes library. Now they play all right (with Windows Media Player), but I don't know how to save them (or find them if they are saving automatically), and if I switch to I-tunes it looks like it's downloading but I get neither sound nor saved file.

Why are these things so complicated? Anyone care to come to the aid of poor old JBuck who ain't as literate about this stuff as he should be? I really do want to have those performances (not to mention anything else I might like to download). Be patient with me--I eventually figured out how to get that pic of Teresa and me loaded.

Are you referring to f.i. downloading the James Kibbie recordings?

You know, I don't know anything about I-tunes. I rarely download music and if I do, I just do the 'right mouse click' trick.

I don't save them in a software-package steered library. Just create my own folders at my hard drive. If I want to convert audio-files to .wavs (just as an example) or vice versa, I check the internet for freeware converting packages.
I use a.o. the freeware version of Switch Sound File Converter, VLC Media Player and Audacity (for some editing work, might it be necessary).
If I lose sight of a certain file that I didn't really download, but only played online, I simple use the search-function of my PC. In many cases the file is still in the folder Temporary Internet Files. (This folder has proven to be a place of treasures many many times!) Copy and paste the files into the right folder, choose the 'favourite' converting package and .... done.

After doing things like this, I could burn them on a disc (if I want to), or copy them to a mp3-player. For burning I use Nero Burning ROM (I have a legal disc of version 7).
I myself use a very old-fashioned cd-discman, and almost all the discs I play at my travelling are copies of my own original discs, or copies of library discs.

Maybe there's something in this story that is useful to you. If not, I really hope someone else can help you out.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:44 pm

Chalkperson wrote: [.....] on the other hand Marc just pointed me at a Set of the Neumeister Chorales that I have never heard, so i'm most grateful he resurrected this Thread...

Please accept the fact that Johannsen isn't playing BWV 1096, because it's one of those notorious spurious works (by Pachelbel?). But, if you can live with that, here's a link:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Neumeister-C ... B00004TKEC

But, who knows, maybe there's a cheaper link to be found.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:43 pm

I bought the Set for $19.64 including Shipping...

.

premont · Post by **premont** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:46 pm

Marc wrote: http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Neumeister-C ... B00004TKEC

But, who knows, maybe there's a cheaper link to be found.

This:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/H%25 ... /HAEN92086

PGS · Post by **PGS** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:53 pm

stenka razin wrote:Marc, welcome to this great and friendly forum. Have fun here.

P. S. Let me put in a good word for the eminent German Organist, Helmut Walcha. He was my introduction to Bach Organ treasures a half century ago and his 'complete' DG CD set is still wonderful. I also have Peter Hurford's magnificent traversal of Bach's Organ works in a Decca CD set

Walcha and his toccata and fugue in D minor BWV 565 was also my passport to classical music.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:30 pm

jbuck919 wrote: [comment made in this 'Preston'-thread: http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/view ... 10&t=34762]
Just FYI, Marc, I've since downloaded most of Kibbie's performances (not all Bach organ music is very interesting, I am sorry to say). Actually listened to some of them too. They are certainly to be recommended.

Agreed. I like his interpretations, too!

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri May 07, 2010 6:31 am

For those who are interested ....

I uploaded a few soundclips of Dutch organist Piet Wiersma (1946-2003), playing Bach on the Schnitger/Hinsz/Freytag organ of the Village Church in Noordbroek, NL.

The clips were part of the (now OOP, except for some rare copies) integral series Bach in Groningen, which was left unfinished after Wiersma's sudden death, only hours after he completed the recordings for Volume 7.

Wiersma was a popular figure in the northern regions of the Netherlands and started with this Bach integral at the end of the 20th century, all works to be played on historic organs in the province of Groningen: hence the title Bach in Groningen. This initiative was supported by a.o. the Foundation Groningen Orgelland and several companies.

Personally, I like Wiersma's recordings very much. I would discribe 'his' Bach as spiritually patient.

I hope all links work well .... I'm not an experienced uploading guy.

Prelude & Fugue in A-minor BWV 551:
http://www.mediafire.com/?odn3jmqky2z

Chorale arrangement Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend' BWV 709:
http://www.mediafire.com/?jzwnytjjxwo

Chorale arrangement Liebster Jesu, wir sind hier BWV 731:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0zvmmnwonng

Prelude & Fugue in G-minor BWV 535:
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ynkyjynikh

RebLem · Post by **RebLem** » Tue May 11, 2010 6:11 pm

I have three complete sets of the Bach organ music. One is the Erato set by Marie-Claire Alain from the early 1990's, which is the best. The second is the one that is part of the hanssler Complete Bach Edition, which I own. The third is one by Kevin Bowyer, which I have on MHS, licensed from Harmonia Mundi.

Peter Hurford has also done a complete set. If you believe, as jbuck does, that Bach's organ music is, for the most part, pretty boring, you might be interested in acquiring the Decca twofer by Hurford called "Great Organ Works," which contain all of the most popular of the organ works. This should be enough for all except competists like me. Certainly, for the general collector, its a good choice for anyone who hasn't reached the 1,000 CDs mark yet. Check it out, 18 works:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... bum_id=424

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Tue May 11, 2010 6:26 pm

RebLem wrote: Peter Hurford has also done a complete set. If you believe, as jbuck does, that Bach's organ music is, for the most part, pretty boring, you might be interested in acquiring the Decca twofer by Hurford called "Great Organ Works," which contain all of the most popular of the organ works. This should be enough for all except competists like me. Certainly, for the general collector, its a good choice for anyone who hasn't reached the 1,000 CDs mark yet. Check it out, 18 works:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... bum_id=424

Just checking to see if I read your posts, eh Rob?

I can't imagine what I ever posted to make you think that I hold such an opinion about the only substantial body of music for my own instrument that is of the highest order of artistry that classical music attains. What I have said, and I stand by it, is that what relatively little Bach below the level of masterpiece that survives is mostly organ music, there is a fair amount of it, and complete sets include it along with all the great stuff.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:47 am

jbuck919 wrote:
RebLem wrote: What I have said, and I stand by it, is that what relatively little Bach below the level of masterpiece that survives is mostly organ music, there is a fair amount of it, and complete sets include it along with all the great stuff.

I think I get your point. And a fair amount of those works are considered 'dubious' or 'spurious', by a fair amount of scholars.

Organists like Bowyer and Weinberger did include a lot of those 'lesser' works. Whatever one thinks about it, it's nice to have them and make some kind of a picture for one's selves about the average composing level during Bach's days, and among his pupils (because many of those spurious works are thought to be pupil's work).

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:07 am

For those who are interested: this year, Marie-Claire Alain's third (!) Bach organ 'integral', recorded on historical organs during the 1990's, has been re-released.

http://www.amazon.com/Comp-Bach-Organ-W ... 004RUF022/

Europeans are able to grab this budget-priced offer:

http://www.amazon.de/Comp-Bach-Organ-Wo ... 004RUF022/

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:53 pm

Marc wrote:For those who are interested: this year, Marie-Claire Alain's third (!) Bach organ 'integral', recorded on historical organs during the 1990's, has been re-released.

That's one of the sets I own, and it is excellent. She changed her playing greatly with the times, and for the better IMO.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:16 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Marc wrote:For those who are interested: this year, Marie-Claire Alain's third (!) Bach organ 'integral', recorded on historical organs during the 1990's, has been re-released.
That's one of the sets I own, and it is excellent. She changed her playing greatly with the times, and for the better IMO.

I share your enthousiasm about madame Alain. Although I have to say that I prefer her playing in the 2nd 'integral': more straightforward, more authoritative. But I do prefer the sound of the historic organs of the 3rd set, even though the three 'modern' baroque-inspired instruments she used in the 2nd are very good indeed (by Marcussen, Metzler and Schwenkedel).

jbuck919 · Post by **jbuck919** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:26 pm

Marc wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Marc wrote:For those who are interested: this year, Marie-Claire Alain's third (!) Bach organ 'integral', recorded on historical organs during the 1990's, has been re-released.
That's one of the sets I own, and it is excellent. She changed her playing greatly with the times, and for the better IMO.
I share your enthousiasm about madame Alain. Although I have to say that I prefer her playing in the 2nd 'integral': more straightforward, more authoritative. But I do prefer the sound of the historic organs of the 3rd set, even though the three 'modern' baroque-inspired instruments she used in the 2nd are very good indeed (by Marcussen, Metzler and Schwenkedel).

I don't know the middle set; you may have a good point. I was comparing the new one with the performances she recorded in the 60s (i.e., pre-HIP) for the Musical Heritage Society.

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