Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

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stenka razin
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Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by stenka razin » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:18 am

The details are below and the results can be heard January 10th on a new Channel CD. I truly love Brahms but isn't this over the top and not necessary? Your thoughts, my fellow CMGers about this 'new' composition, please. 8)

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Brahms/Lazic - Piano Concerto No. 3 in D major

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brahms:
Piano Concerto No. 3 in D major (after Violin Concerto, Op. 77)

arr. Dejan Lazic. Live recording & World premiere recording

Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, Robert Spano

Rhapsodies, Op. 79

Scherzo in E flat minor, Op. 4


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dejan Lazic (piano)

World premiere recording of Brahms’s Violin Concerto for Piano and Orchestra.

Own arrangement of pianist Dejan Lazic.

Premieres with top orchestras around the world in 2010.

In his extended liner notes Dejan Lazic explains against the historical background why and how he worked on this major project:

‘I started working on this project in early 2003 and completed it in 2008. The violin was always a favourite love, and I continue to hold violinists in high esteem, realising just how wonderful their literature is. Thus far, I have been tremendously lucky to have had many an opportunity to perform with some wonderful colleagues. And it is with a degree of pride that I present – after Bach and Beethoven – the third “great B” in the present arrangement. Is one actually "allowed" to make such an arrangement? With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Brahms made countless arrangements and transcriptions of his and other composers' works. I am convinced these were more than justified; hence, I hope that Brahms himself would not have anything against my idea. What lingers is the rhetorical question of what is a transcription, what makes an arrangement, what may be defined as a new version. The key to this conundrum is that I sought to construct anew the violin part, recomposing the voice in a thorough-going Brahmsian style and adding my own Cadenza. Throughout the piece that was my thought: to imagine what Brahms would do. Of great import is that the orchestral score remains entirely unchanged! With this arrangement - done solely out of respect and admiration for the composer - my main goal was to translate Brahms's unique musical language into a new setting without losing any of its original musical value and, in addition, to give pianists an equal chance to perform and enjoy this wonderful music the same way violinists do for exactly 130 years now.’ Dejan Lazic
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Scott Morrison
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Scott Morrison » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:00 am

I will admit I'm intrigued. If we can like Schoenberg's arrangement of the G minor Piano Quartet, why not this?

(signed) A Pianist :lol:
Der Himmel hängt voller Geigen. - Bavarian folksong

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Jared » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:34 am

Hi Mel/ Scott,

Please help me understand this release... is this a straight 'transcription' of Brahms' Violin Concerto made for Piano? Or, did Brahms ever leave small fragments for a possible 3rd PC which have been woven in?

either way, I'm not entirely sold on the idea, but would be interested in what others say.. :?

premont
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by premont » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:02 am

Next step might be the Concerto for violin and violoncello arranged for two pianos and orchestra.

:wink:

Fergus
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Fergus » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:01 am

My initial response was Why? Then, as I read further on I saw....
Of great import is that the orchestral score remains entirely unchanged!
....and then I thought Why Not?

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Ken » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:08 am

I'm intrigued! Think it's not a bad idea at all.
Du sollst schlechte Compositionen weder spielen, noch, wenn du nicht dazu gezwungen bist, sie anhören.

THEHORN
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by THEHORN » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:17 am

Yes, very interesting . If Beethoven could make a piano version of his violin concerto ,(which I recently heard on an excellent Naxos CD), why not a piano transcription of the Brahms violin concerto ?

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by gfweis » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:23 am

stenka razin wrote:Dejean Lazic: "I sought to construct anew the violin part, recomposing the voice in a thorough-going Brahmsian style...."
Uh oh. I hope I have an open mind, but when I get hints like this that suggest considerable re-writing, call me dubious. OTOH, perhaps Lazic is, like Brahms, a genius, and will do something amazing. What, however, are the chances?
Greg Weis

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Werner » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:42 am

I must admit I'm not curious to hear this, but I'll look out for commentary and criticism when it's heard and reviewed.

We know that there have been arrangements and transcriptions galore - e. g. Bach/Busoni, Bach /Stokowski - demonstrating the mirroring of one musical mind in another. Whether this is at a similar level remains to be seen.

The two precedents that have some relationship to this project would seem to be Brahms' own transcription of the Bach d minor Chaconne for violin solo, for piano, for the left hand alone, using, if I recall correctly, nothing more than the original text, arranged for piano solo. There is a wonderful recorded performance - I don't know whether it's currently available - by Leon Fleisher.

The other precedent, of course, is Beethoven's own transcription of his Violin Concerto for piano and orchestra, which has had very little exposure to public performance due to the fiddlers' possesiveness of one of the comparatively rare great concerti for their instrument. I suspect that a similar fate may be in store for the present project, more so, perhaps, since the author is not the original composer but one of his admiring fans.

Let's stay tuned.
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Guitarist » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:54 pm

At least all of the multi-stops will be played in tune! :D I admit that I am curious and will probably purchase it.

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Lance » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:09 pm

Yes, I, too, am intrigued. This would be an item of great interest to me. Beethoven's VC for piano/orchestra turns out to be a remarkable composition performed by such pianists as Peter Serkin [RCA] and Helen Fogel Schnabel [Town Hall transfer from SPA], Artur Balsam [Bridge], Felicja Blumental [Brana]—all pianists, not to mention a transcription for clarinet and orchestra with Michael Collins [DGG]. I actually think the piano transcription of the Brahms VC could work. We'll see how “effective” it will be.
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:13 pm

Lance wrote: Felicja Blumental
I love her! She introduced me to Paisiello's piano concertos when I was in college, on Turnabout. To me they screamed "Early Mozart!" My music prof had never heard of the Paisiello piano concertos, so I loaned him my recording.
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Wallingford » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:55 pm

FORGET about a new Brahms concerto......I'm itching to hear that alleged "Ragtime Symphony"!
If I could tell my mom and dad
That the things we never had
Never mattered we were always ok
Getting ready for Christmas day
--Paul Simon

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Ken » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:04 pm

Wallingford wrote:FORGET about a new Brahms concerto......I'm itching to hear that alleged "Ragtime Symphony"!
You're out of luck, musicologists are most certain that Brahms burned the manuscript in the same garbage bin as the sketches for his comic opera, The Sting.
Du sollst schlechte Compositionen weder spielen, noch, wenn du nicht dazu gezwungen bist, sie anhören.

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:46 pm

Dejan Lazic is an interesting musician, I certainly will give this a listen...
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Lance » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:07 pm

Did your prof ever give the recording back to you!?!
Corlyss_D wrote:
Lance wrote: Felicja Blumental
I love her! She introduced me to Paisiello's piano concertos when I was in college, on Turnabout. To me they screamed "Early Mozart!" My music prof had never heard of the Paisiello piano concertos, so I loaned him my recording.
Lance G. Hill
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When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Lance » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:09 pm

Yes, Felicja Blumental was a wonderful pianist. I first discovered her in rare piano works (including the Paisiello) in a special series of discs issued only by The Record Hunter at 507 Fifth Avenue in NYC. Do you remember what our dear founder, Ward Botsford, said about her? I shall NEVER forget it! But I shan't repeat it, either.
Lance wrote:Did your prof ever give the recording back to you!?!
Corlyss_D wrote:
Lance wrote: Felicja Blumental
I love her! She introduced me to Paisiello's piano concertos when I was in college, on Turnabout. To me they screamed "Early Mozart!" My music prof had never heard of the Paisiello piano concertos, so I loaned him my recording.
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

Image

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Werner » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:52 pm

I have no idea, Lance, what Ward Botsford said to you regarding Felicija Blumenthal that you wouldn't repeat.
My only exposure to her was in the Beethoven D Major concerto - the piano versionno of the Violin Concerto. Having heard Helen Schnabel's recording and been impressed, I became interested in the piece and wanted to hear it live if possible.

About that time, Peter Serkin was scheduled to play it with Ormandy and the Philadelhia Orchestra at Carnegie Hall, and I believe it was recorded - certainly there is a Peter Serkin recording listed. But somehow an issue must have arisen between Ormandy and P. Serkin, and Gunnar Johansen learned the piece on three days' notice and did the performance. We were there, and I wanted to hear more. More turned out to be the Felicija Blumenthal recording.

I've tried to hang on to all the recordings I bought, permanently. I liked this one so much that I didn't care what happened to it. My index still shows it but i can't find it. And I don't miss it.
Werner Isler

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:59 am

Lance wrote:Did your prof ever give the recording back to you!?!
Corlyss_D wrote:
Lance wrote: Felicja Blumental
I love her! She introduced me to Paisiello's piano concertos when I was in college, on Turnabout. To me they screamed "Early Mozart!" My music prof had never heard of the Paisiello piano concertos, so I loaned him my recording.
Yup! I still have it. He thought it was delightful!
Corlyss
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by barney » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:41 am

THEHORN wrote:Yes, very interesting . If Beethoven could make a piano version of his violin concerto ,(which I recently heard on an excellent Naxos CD), why not a piano transcription of the Brahms violin concerto ?
You beat me to it. I've long had Barenboim playing that arrangement. I haven't played it for probably20 years,but I'm glad to know it's there. I'll be quite interested, and listen with an open mind, to the Brahms, but I don't think the pianist (who was in Australia last month, and I heard him playing Beethoven) is actually a Beethoven himself. The beethoven arrangement follows the violin concerto closely but is not a mere transcription (well, lots more notes, obviously).

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by slofstra » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:32 pm

I think it's deceptive advertising to call this "Piano Concerto No. 3". It should be titled "Brahms Violin Concerto No. 1, trans. for piano by Lazic".

If more transcriptions or arrangements of Brahms orchestral works to include piano are made, do you then call them PC 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.?

Should we also number the duo piano transcriptions as Brahms' sonatas?

And would you call Liszt's transcription of "Beethoven's Symphony No. 6", "Beethoven Piano Sonata No. 33"?

I think that transcriptions and re-arrangements should be identified as the source work, then with a suffix that indicates who did the arrangement or transcription. I'm not a bibliographer but there must be some kind of standard for this.

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Fergus » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:21 am

slofstra wrote:I think it's deceptive advertising to call this "Piano Concerto No. 3". It should be titled "Brahms Violin Concerto No. 1, trans. for piano by Lazic".

If more transcriptions or arrangements of Brahms orchestral works to include piano are made, do you then call them PC 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.?
A valid point indeed :wink:

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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:42 am

slofstra wrote:If more transcriptions or arrangements of Brahms orchestral works to include piano are made, do you then call them PC 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.?
Don't give 'em any ideas!
Corlyss
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Jack Kelso » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:03 pm

Whether this is just a promotional idea to capitalize on a very popular composer.....?! Had Brahms himself written it I might be interested. As with Schoenberg's orchestral version of the Piano Quartet opus 25, Brahms' original I find far more expressive----even though Schoenberg shows fine craftsmanship.

Even Beethoven's OWN piano concerto version of the Violin Concerto doesn't really do that much for me. And I prefer by far HIS piano concerti to Brahms'.

Also, Glasunov (and co.!) orchestrated the Schumann "Carnaval", his "Chopiniana" is attractive and Leo Weiner's score of the Liszt Sonata in B Minor manages to sir up some real drama. All of these are interesting in some aspects---but I think the Liszt-Weiner comes off best of all of these.

Tschüß,
Jack
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Re: Brahms Piano Concerto No. 3.....Really?

Post by Guitarist » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:41 pm

Lazic explains here and plays excerpts:
http://www.channelclassics.com/dejanbrahms.html

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