All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
You are all familiar with the saying that all new music inspires controversy because that is the nature of the beast; even Beethoven was controversial when he was alive.
How valid would you say is that argument? Can you measure in objective terms the phenomenon of startlingly modernistic music becoming acceptable and even conventional? I wish I could make such an estimate myself, but the Tampa classical music scene is still stuck in the 1950s, exactly as when I arrived here in 1983.
How valid would you say is that argument? Can you measure in objective terms the phenomenon of startlingly modernistic music becoming acceptable and even conventional? I wish I could make such an estimate myself, but the Tampa classical music scene is still stuck in the 1950s, exactly as when I arrived here in 1983.
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!
Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
"All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning"? Sometimes true, often not. Haydn wasn't at all controversial during his long lifetime. Neither was Handel. What was controversial about Bach? Nothing that I know of. Beethoven ceased to be controversial long before he died. Such controversy as there was about Mozart, had to do with the richness of his orchestration in opera, but otherwise his mastery was unquestioned. Schubert's music wasn't well enough known in his lifetime to be controversial, but the little that was published and performed was generally praised. And so on.dulcinea wrote:You are all familiar with the saying that all new music inspires controversy because that is the nature of the beast; even Beethoven was controversial when he was alive.
How valid would you say is that argument? Can you measure in objective terms the phenomenon of startlingly modernistic music becoming acceptable and even conventional? I wish I could make such an estimate myself, but the Tampa classical music scene is still stuck in the 1950s, exactly as when I arrived here in 1983.
As regards 20th century music, this topic has been brought up in CMG again and again, and I don't believe there is anything new to say about it.
John Francis
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Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
John summed it up nicely, and I'd just like to add that from what we see, it seems like contemporary reception has little correlation to lasting impact.
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Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
You can read about the many problems Handel had with public taste often being against him. Many of his greatest oratorios were "flops" financially---and many singers couldn't manage the arias properly.John F wrote:"All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning"? Sometimes true, often not. Haydn wasn't at all controversial during his long lifetime. Neither was Handel. What was controversial about Bach? Nothing that I know of. Beethoven ceased to be controversial long before he died. Such controversy as there was about Mozart, had to do with the richness of his orchestration in opera, but otherwise his mastery was unquestioned. Schubert's music wasn't well enough known in his lifetime to be controversial, but the little that was published and performed was generally praised. And so on.dulcinea wrote:You are all familiar with the saying that all new music inspires controversy because that is the nature of the beast; even Beethoven was controversial when he was alive.
How valid would you say is that argument? Can you measure in objective terms the phenomenon of startlingly modernistic music becoming acceptable and even conventional? I wish I could make such an estimate myself, but the Tampa classical music scene is still stuck in the 1950s, exactly as when I arrived here in 1983.
As regards 20th century music, this topic has been brought up in CMG again and again, and I don't believe there is anything new to say about it.
It seems to be one of those old generalities that float about that Handel wrote "crowd pleasers". Mozart and Wagner were at least as successful in stage music during their lifetimes as Handel was.
Tschüß,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning
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Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
Yes and no. After his death there were still conductors in the Paris Conservatoire who were "correcting" the harmonies in his symphonies.John F wrote:Beethoven ceased to be controversial long before he died.
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
Like Mahler and Toscanini.....~g~karlhenning wrote:Yes and no. After his death there were still conductors in the Paris Conservatoire who were "correcting" the harmonies in his symphonies.John F wrote:Beethoven ceased to be controversial long before he died.
Cheers,
~Karl
Oh, that was "only" the orchestration....
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Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
That Mahler . . . such a tinkerer ; )
Cheers,
~Karl
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
Today WUSF played the Bassoon Concerto of Rota, a very amusing piece; somehow, in 3 and a half months WUSF has managed to play more non-warhorses than was the case in all of 2009.
Could it be possible that WUSF is finally acknowledging that the second half of the 20th century really did exist?
Could it be possible that WUSF is finally acknowledging that the second half of the 20th century really did exist?
Let every thing that has breath praise the Lord! Alleluya!
Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
karlhenning wrote:Yes and no. After his death there were still conductors in the Paris Conservatoire who were "correcting" the harmonies in his symphonies.John F wrote:Beethoven ceased to be controversial long before he died.
That isn't controversy, it's editing. Performers, scholars, the composers and authors themselves, are always tinkering with texts.
As for controversy, the section on "contemporary assessments" in "The Beethoven Compendium" sums up how his music was received: "Beethoven's genius was widely recognized during his lifetime." Not unanimously, but controversy isn't about mere lack of universal agreement, it's about extended and widespread public dispute. Except in France (what would you expect?), there was no such dispute about Beethoven's standing and importance from his middle period on. Czerny wrote, "He was always marvelled at and respected as an extraordinary being and his greatness was suspected even by those who did not understand him." Nicolas Slonimsky delights in quoting some obtuse London reviewers in his "Lexicon of Musical Invective," but the "Compendium" observes, "Beethoven's music enjoyed great popularity in England." And so on. We're not talking about Wagner, Schoenberg, or even Gluck here.
John Francis
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Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
Amazing how often the sneer substitutes for genuine argument.John F wrote:...controversy isn't about mere lack of universal agreement, it's about extended and widespread public dispute. Except in France (what would you expect?), there was no such dispute about Beethoven's standing and importance from his middle period on.
The sneer and the cunningly placed adjective.John F wrote:Nicolas Slonimsky delights in quoting some obtuse London reviewers in his "Lexicon of Musical Invective"....
And not to forget the simple failure to mention anything outsides one's thesis. In Slonimsky's book, for instance, there are quotes from several other critics from other countries, from a range of years. Vienna, 1804. Vienna, 1806. Paris, 1810. (I guess we can't use that, because France has been sneered out of this conversation.) Berlin, 1825 (though, be fair, this is a comment about Wellington's Victory). Moscow, 1843. Paris, 1849. Boston, 1853. Paris, 1855. (Two from that year.) Paris, 1857. (Four from that year.) Cassel, 1861. (This is a comment by Spohr that he "could never get any enjoyment out of Beethoven's last works.") Boston, 1899. (There's some evidence for "extended," at least.)
As for the claim that there was "no such dispute" about Beethoven's "standing and importance" from around 1805 on, well, it'd be nice to see how well that bland assertion stands up up to any sort of scrutiny. I don't have time to do the scrutinizing, myself. (My professional responsibility is to living composers.) Still, it'd be interesting to explore this.
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)
Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller
--Viennese critic (1843)
Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller
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Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
There is a large multi-volume work which consists of contemporary reviews of Beethoven's work, writings that were published during Beethoven's lifetime. One could cull reports from this extensive work to support either argument, that Beethoven was recognized as a towering genius or misunderstood as an oddball eccentric or a radical extremist. At some point when it's more convenient for me, I'll look it up and tell you the name and editor, because this is an important work that should be read by those who would use Beethoven as an example in the contemporary music culture wars.
This book will quickly lay to rest both notions that Beethoven was universally revered and universally misunderstood. It's not a black and white situation at all.
This book will quickly lay to rest both notions that Beethoven was universally revered and universally misunderstood. It's not a black and white situation at all.
Black lives matter.
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Re: All the Old Masters Were Controversial at the Beginning
Except for the multi-volume part, this sounds like The Beethoven Compendium that John Francis mentioned.diegobueno wrote:There is a large multi-volume work which consists of contemporary reviews of Beethoven's work, writings that were published during Beethoven's lifetime. One could cull reports from this extensive work to support either argument, that Beethoven was recognized as a towering genius or misunderstood as an oddball eccentric or a radical extremist.
Of course, without going to any book, one can conclude that the real world is more complex than many people want it to be. One could almost argue that all(!) discussions of this sort are a cry for simplicity. Many people want everything they like to be great. Everything they hate to be bad. They want science to support them, too, as in the studies that show that only Western tonal music is "natural." They want all great works to have been controversial at first, or they want all great works to have been universally accepted from the get go.
Even comment like this one, "'Beethoven's genius was widely recognized during his lifetime.' Not unanimously, but controversy isn't about mere lack of universal agreement, it's about extended and widespread public dispute," which looks nuanced on the face of it, is really a call for simplicity. Define "controversy" in a certain way, and you can safely simplify all the responses to Beethoven's music, good or bad, as non-controversial.
I still, however, want to know what that book is, Mark, if it's other than the one John mentioned.
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)
Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller
--Viennese critic (1843)
Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller
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