Mahler's Second----best recording....?!

Jack Kelso · Post by **Jack Kelso** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:52 am

My wife gave me for Christmas Zubin Mehta's 1974 recording with the Vienna Phil.---and I am duly impressed!

For me, it even beats out the Solti, which is very fine indeed. Mehta doesn't drag the first mvt (21 min.), rather respects the "Allegro maestoso" marking. He brings out the dramatic, poetic and lyrical elements with passion and perfection. Sound is also excellent.

Soloists Ileana Cotrubas and Christa Ludwig are also superb as is the Staatsopernchor.

Personally, it's the finest I've heard (so far).....and I've heard a lot of performances!

Tschüß,
Jack

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:10 am

I only have two versions - Klemperer and Kaplan - and love them both.

josé echenique · Post by **josé echenique** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:07 am

When the Mehta was first released it was mildly well received by the critics, who preferred the near contemporaneous LSO Bernstein recording in CBS with Janet Baker and Sheila Armstrong. Where the Mehta recording scored big time was in it´s impressive wide-ranging sound. The sound of the Bernstein recorded in Ely Cathedral was always problematic, and has been absent of the catalogues on and off in the times of the cd, whereas the Mehta has always been available, which means that in spite of what the critics say, the public liked the recording.
When I first bought in LP I was haunted by Christa Ludwig´s solo and the sheer magnificence of the Vienna Philharmonic´s strings.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:43 am

Walter/NYPO
Solti/CSO

bombasticDarren · Post by **bombasticDarren** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:54 am

Donaldopato · Post by **Donaldopato** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:57 am

Klemperer Philharmonia EMI and Bernstein NYP Sony are the ones I turn to the most, with the Walter a sentimental favorite. I have always heard that the Mehta 2nd was one of his better recordings, but I do not think I have ever heard it.

Istvan · Post by **Istvan** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:17 am

Of the two Solti recordings, I much prefer the older LSO version, largely on account of the recorded sound, which has greater depth and offstage brass which really sounds offstage. The chorus, founded by the late John Aldis and making its first recording, sings with great fervour.

Jack Kelso · Post by **Jack Kelso** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:21 am

Donaldopato wrote:Klemperer Philharmonia EMI and Bernstein NYP Sony are the ones I turn to the most, with the Walter a sentimental favorite. I have always heard that the Mehta 2nd was one of his better recordings, but I do not think I have ever heard it.

I know those by Walter, Bernstein, Klemperer, Solti and lots of others. But for me Mehta gets just the right tempo going, with exactly the dose of rubato the work needs so it doesn't come across as too stiff. Some folks prefer Mahler done with each and every note full of "meaning", which can cause tremendous drag, especially in the more powerful moments.

Mehta for me here!

Tschüß,
Jack

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:13 am

Hello, Jack!

That Mehta recording of Mahler II is one of his finest achievements, IMHO. The sound is sumptuous, and Vienna plays with all their power and presence.

I do think that Solti's London recording is equally fine, however: I grew up with both recordings, and both have remained favorites over the years for their keen understanding of tempo and quality of playing.

For a contemporary reading, none beats Abbado's impassioned Lucerne DVD. He's our great Mahler conductor now: after he's gone, there's no one who lives up to his standards, IMHO.

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:27 am

My favourites are:

Solti/LSO
Abbado/Lucerne Festival Orchestra
Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra
Walter/NYPO (1958)
Klemperer/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (1965)

I am intrigued by the fact that so much praise is being heaped on the Mehta/VPO recordings. mcq (Paul) from Dublin also speaks very well of several performances from the box set.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:30 am

maestrob wrote:For a contemporary reading, none beats Abbado's impassioned Lucerne DVD. He's our great Mahler conductor now: after he's gone, there's no one who lives up to his standards, IMHO.

Abbado's CSO recording is very good also. I agree, that he is the foremost Mahler conductor of th epresent. Levine is very good also.

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:32 am

Heck148 wrote:
maestrob wrote:For a contemporary reading, none beats Abbado's impassioned Lucerne DVD. He's our great Mahler conductor now: after he's gone, there's no one who lives up to his standards, IMHO.
Abbado's CSO recording is very good also. I agree, that he is the foremost Mahler conductor of th epresent. Levine is very good also.

Levine is great at almost everything he does, I agree. A shame he hasn't yet taken on Mahler's II or VIII.....

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:41 am

maestrob wrote:
Heck148 wrote:
maestrob wrote:For a contemporary reading, none beats Abbado's impassioned Lucerne DVD. He's our great Mahler conductor now: after he's gone, there's no one who lives up to his standards, IMHO.
Abbado's CSO recording is very good also. I agree, that he is the foremost Mahler conductor of th epresent. Levine is very good also.
Levine is great at almost everything he does, I agree. A shame he hasn't yet taken on Mahler's II or VIII.....

I couldn't agree more, his Mahler box set is wonderful and it's a real pity it's not complete.

Heck148 · Post by **Heck148** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:44 am

maestrob wrote: Levine is great at almost everything he does, I agree. A shame he hasn't yet taken on Mahler's II or VIII.....

He did record #8/I at Ravinia, which is included on one of the CSO archival sets...live performance..

#2 would seem to be a nautural for him. he's very good at "big" works - with definite dramatic flow and ultimate climax...operas of all sorts, Mahler symphonies, etc...

I heard both Levine and Abbado conduct Mahler #9 in Boston Symphony Hall - Levine/BSO, Abbado/BPO.
both were excellent - both orchestras were very fine. overall tho, I thought Abbado got into the ebb and flow a bit better, esp in mvt I, where the rising and falling action - tension/release is quite well-defined...Levine's was good, but I thought Abbado got more out of the quiet sections, kept the momentum a little better.

The BSO did a fine job with the concluding pages of the finale - but Abbado's BPO was miraculous. the ultra-pianissimo playing of the strings was otherworldy - super-soft, sans vibrato [well, maybe un peu] perfectly in tune, nearly inaudible...some doofus started clapping before the end

, but this could not destroy the magical effect.

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:15 pm

I haven't heard the Mehta, although this isn't the first time I've read a rave about it.

Of those I have heard, Bernstein's first New York recording on Sony remains my favorite. The one that so many people seem to like, but which has never done anything for me is the Klemperer (I also used to have his BRSO recording on EMI ... same thing with that one .... and I'm not anti-Klemperer's Mahler in general ... I love his recordings of 7 and 9 on EMI).

I heard an on-line broadcast of Jansons and the Concertgebouw perform it a season or two ago and was really blown away by the performance. I image that will be out on the RCOA's own label soon.

stenka razin · Post by **stenka razin** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:55 pm

Klemperer, Walter, Solti and Bernstein are just four of my favorites. There are many more, but, these four are special.

JackC · Post by **JackC** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:58 pm

Barry wrote:I haven't heard the Mehta, although this isn't the first time I've read a rave about it.

Of those I have heard, Bernstein's first New York recording on Sony remains my favorite. The one that so many people seem to like, but which has never done anything for me is the Klemperer (and I also used to have his BRSO recording on EMI ... same thing with that one).

I heard an on-line broadcast of Jansons and the Concertgebouw perform it a season or two ago and was really blown away by the performance. I image that will be out on the RCOA's own label soon.

I think it is already out:

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/6775

Barry · Post by **Barry** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:52 pm

JackC wrote: I think it is already out:

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/6775

Thanks. I suppose I'll have to buy it now.

Wallingford · Post by **Wallingford** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:53 pm

Personally, my special affection will always be for Ormandy 1, from Minnesota.....certainly one of the great recording achievements for its time (1935).

Fergus · Post by **Fergus** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:26 pm

Of the M2s in my collection and these would be my choice....

1. Klemperer + Philharmonia Orch.
2. Walter + NY Phil.
3. Kaplan + LSO

John F · Post by **John F** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:59 pm

Oskar Fried, Berliner Staatskapelle, 1924

This may be the closest we can get to the way Mahler himself conducted the symphony. Less than 20 years before making this recording of the complete work, Fried was personally instructed by Mahler as to tempos and style before conducting it in concert. Of course there's no guarantee that with Mahler long dead, Fried continued to do as he'd been told. But the possibility is tantalizing.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:14 am

It's a tough call, but, Kaplan's Second Recording of the Second would be my choice...

Prometheus · Post by **Prometheus** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:56 am

Like many above I very much like the Klemperer, Mehta, and Bernstein recordings.

My favorite in terms of the last five or so minutes would likely be Tennstedt with the LPO from the EMI box set. I find it to have the best balance of the finale.

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:13 am

Chalkperson wrote:It's a tough call, but, Kaplan's Second Recording of the Second would be my choice...

That's his recording with the VPO then? I understand that his first recording of the Resurrection was with the LSO. I have to say that I am surprised that Kaplan is held in such high regard by both Fergus and Chalkie.

John F · Post by **John F** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:19 am

Kaplan certainly isn't held in such high regard by many of the musicians who've played in his Mahler 2 performances. A trombonist in the NY Phil writes at devastating length about Kaplan's guest appearance with that orchestra. (http://davidfinlayson.typepad.com/fin_n ... aplan.html) Just how far his recordings of the symphony reflect his personal conception and skills, and how far they are saved by players who already know the symphony from rehearsals and performances under professional conductors, is a recurring question.

But most of us judge recordings by what we hear, not by inside information, and if some like what they hear in the recordings credited to Kaplan, so be it.

arnolj10 · Post by **arnolj10** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:49 am

I agree with all the above, especially in respect of the stunning Abbado recording, but what a lot of excellent performances are being overlooked!
Even just counting very recent recordings, there are Boulez, Zinman, Tilson Thomas, Fischer and P Jarvi -- especially Boulez, whose Mahler recordings have proven always to be vastly more interesting than one might predict. And then among slightly older ones there's the excellent Herbert Blomstedt, two great performances from Seiji Ozawa, a fine Yoel Levi, the thrilling live Tennstedt, a not-everyone's-cup-of-tea pair of Stokowskis (BBC Legends and RCA), and, perhaps best of all, Leonard Slatkin. Slatkin doesn't exactly have a towering reputation as a Mahlerian (nor as anything else particularly), but his M2 is absolutely thrilling, with perhaps the most impressively massive ending of any recording I've heard.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:45 pm

Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:It's a tough call, but, Kaplan's Second Recording of the Second would be my choice...
That's his recording with the VPO then? I understand that his first recording of the Resurrection was with the LSO. I have to say that I am surprised that Kaplan is held in such high regard by both Fergus and Chalkie.

I am fully aware of the stuff that John has posted about Kaplan and know many people share that view, but, I have to say that I find his reading highly enjoyable, it's down to taste and whilst Klemperer and and others have highly regarded recordings Kaplan is the one I keep returning to, but, i'm musically illiterate so I have no way of knowing (or criticizing) his true abilities as a Conductor, the only other recording Kaplan has made is a rather average reading of the Adagio from the Fifth Symphony...

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:02 pm

John F wrote:Kaplan certainly isn't held in such high regard by many of the musicians who've played in his Mahler 2 performances. A trombonist in the NY Phil writes at devastating length about Kaplan's guest appearance with that orchestra. (http://davidfinlayson.typepad.com/fin_n ... aplan.html) Just how far his recordings of the symphony reflect his personal conception and skills, and how far they are saved by players who already know the symphony from rehearsals and performances under professional conductors, is a recurring question.

But most of us judge recordings by what we hear, not by inside information, and if some like what they hear in the recordings credited to Kaplan, so be it.

JohnF:

I agree with the posted comments above, and did so at the time Kaplan's second (DGG) recording was released. For my taste, it's all over the place, with tempo twists and turns that defy gravity. It just feels so wrong to me, after the discipline and drama in Solti, Mehta or Abbado, or even Kaplan's first (LSO) recording, all of which I do like.

De gustibus, and all that, but Kaplan II was a waste of money as far as I'm concerned.

Fergus · Post by **Fergus** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:28 pm

All that I will say is that I like what I like

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:01 pm

Fergus wrote:All that I will say is that I like what I like

Me too...

Fergus · Post by **Fergus** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:26 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Fergus wrote:All that I will say is that I like what I like
Me too...

Good for you too

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:44 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Fergus wrote:All that I will say is that I like what I like
Me too...

Me three!

CharmNewton · Post by **CharmNewton** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:05 am

John F wrote: Oskar Fried, Berliner Staatskapelle, 1924

This may be the closest we can get to the way Mahler himself conducted the symphony. Less than 20 years before making this recording of the complete work, Fried was personally instructed by Mahler as to tempos and style before conducting it in concert. Of course there's no guarantee that with Mahler long dead, Fried continued to do as he'd been told. But the possibility is tantalizing.

I have a great affection for this recording and its intensity comes through despite its being an acoustic recording. The barrier of antique sound dissolves very quickly for me. The Bruno Walter Society LPs were pretty good transfers but Ward Marston's transfer on Naxos improves on it includes a number of rare early Mahler recordings of vocal works. Mahler had died only 13 years before this recording was made.

John

val · Post by **val** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:13 am

I love three versions. Klemperer with the Philharmonia (or, before, with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra) is very dramatic in the first movement, "Totenfeier", powerful and with a perfect cohesion. His version with the Concertgebow (and Kathleen Ferrier) is too fast and the sound is horrible.

Bruno Walter with the NYP is unique in the 2nd and 3rd movements and Forrester is sublime in the "Urlicht".

Zubin Mehta, with a splendid sound, is very inspired (even if he sounds a little artificial sometimes). The last movements are extraordinary, the soloists (Cotrubas and Ludwig) and the orchestra (the VPO) are splendid.

I think that my "ideal" version of this work is a synthesis of those 3 versions.

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:49 pm

val wrote:I love three versions. Klemperer with the Philharmonia (or, before, with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra) is very dramatic in the first movement, "Totenfeier", powerful and with a perfect cohesion. His version with the Concertgebow (and Kathleen Ferrier) is too fast and the sound is horrible.

Bruno Walter with the NYP is unique in the 2nd and 3rd movements and Forrester is sublime in the "Urlicht".

I agree with you on both the early Klemperer and on the Walter/NYPO recording too.

Tore · Post by **Tore** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:22 am

I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm

Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker

Tore F Steenslid
Sotra, Norway
www.steenslid.com

Jack Kelso · Post by **Jack Kelso** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:00 am

Tore wrote:I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm

Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker

Tore F Steenslid
Sotra, Norway
http://www.steenslid.com

Aah, I can already hear Chalkie's cheers!

Tschüß,
Jack

stefanher · Post by **stefanher** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:17 am

Jack Kelso wrote:
Tore wrote:I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm

Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker

Tore F Steenslid
Sotra, Norway
http://www.steenslid.com
Aah, I can already hear Chalkie's cheers!

Tschüß,
Jack

Why has this forum really got it in for Simon Rattle now? Twenty years ago he was everybody's blue eyed boy. As far as I'm concerned he's managed two decent recordings in his career- the first Mahler 10 & his orchestral "Wenlock Edge" with Tear- the best of this work. So he has never been a great favourite of mine & his recent recordings such as his debussy & Schubert's 9th have been so perverse that I'm not interested in anything else by him.

Berlin seems to disagree & the Met orchestra are said to have "loved" him...

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:17 am

stefanher wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:
Tore wrote:I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm

Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker

Tore F Steenslid
Sotra, Norway
http://www.steenslid.com
Aah, I can already hear Chalkie's cheers!

Tschüß,
Jack

Why has this forum really got it in for Simon Rattle now?

That's a good question. I think that you have provided the answer below.

Twenty years ago he was everybody's blue eyed boy. As far as I'm concerned he's managed two decent recordings in his career- the first Mahler 10 & his orchestral "Wenlock Edge" with Tear- the best of this work. So he has never been a great favourite of mine & his recent recordings such as his debussy & Schubert's 9th have been so perverse that I'm not interested in anything else by him.

Berlin seems to disagree & the Met orchestra are said to have "loved" him...

John F · Post by **John F** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:52 am

Orchestras' response to their conductors is one thing; listeners' response to performances and recordings is another. Just because a conductor gets along well with orchestras, which appreciate that he/she has the technique and skill to manage rehearsals and lead performances efficiently, doesn't make those performances exempt from criticism here or anywhere.

That said, I don't believe all of CMG is anti-Rattle. Some members are, more or less noisily and repeatedly,

but others aren't. For myself, I haven't heard that many Rattle performances, but I thought his Met "Pelléas" was very good. Chalkie should have gone to that rehearsal. James Levine is still the master of that opera, as far as I'm concerned, and somehow the Rattle performance I heard didn't move me as much as many I've heard from Levine (not just because of the conducting), but I can't say why, and others may have felt differently.

maestrob · Post by **maestrob** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:04 am

As far as being anti-Rattle, well, I like his early recordings of XXth Century repertoire: Bartok, Szymanowski, Grainger. His Mahler X comes close, but no cigar, but it's not bad. It's really Rattle's take on Romantic repertoire (Brahms, Beethoven) that I don't care for, including his recent telecast of Mahler IX from Berlin: inappropriate tempi, and mismanagement of transitions from one musical idea to the next is the best way I can put it.

I can't judge his Pelleas, as I've never studied the work.

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:54 pm

Jack Kelso wrote:
Tore wrote:I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm

Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker

Tore F Steenslid
Sotra, Norway
http://www.steenslid.com
Aah, I can already hear Chalkie's cheers!

Tschüß,
Jack

It's got very average reviews so far, as expected...to be fair, his CBSO M2 was actually very good...

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:04 pm

stefanher wrote:Why has this forum really got it in for Simon Rattle now?

Speaking personally, it's because he has produced a non stop series of very average recordings with the BPO, Brahm's Requiem being the exception...he is not doing the job he is being paid for, his recordings are uninspiring, dull, lifeless and sometimes dead boring, I can think of no other Conductor who has fallen so far so quickly, most Conductors get better with age and Rattle is only in his fifties, I don't agree that the Orchestra is the best judge of the Conductor and I genuinely mean that...I do give him a thorough trashing, but, part of that is to liven things up and make people smile with my descriptions, I called him an uninspired eunuch the other day, Herr Von Hill has graciously allowed me to do this...also I was at J+R the other day, they were returning literally hundreds of CD's and Box Sets of Rattle's recordings, nobody buys them, if that is not the public voting with it's money the I don't know what is...

Seán · Post by **Seán** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:39 pm

Chalkperson wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:
Tore wrote:I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm

Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker

Tore F Steenslid
Sotra, Norway
http://www.steenslid.com
Aah, I can already hear Chalkie's cheers!

Tschüß,
Jack
It's got very average reviews so far, as expected...to be fair, his CBSO M2 was actually very good...

Hmmm, I don't really like it.

Fergus · Post by **Fergus** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:33 pm

stefanher wrote:Why has this forum really got it in for Simon Rattle now? Twenty years ago he was everybody's blue eyed boy....

Speaking personally I was a one time huge fan of Rattle; that, however, was in his CBSO days but since he has moved to Berlin the energy, life and drive seems to have disappeared from his recorded performances. Some of his early recordings with the BPO maintained this but not for long alas.

arthound · Post by **arthound** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:46 am

arnolj10 wrote:I agree with all the above, especially in respect of the stunning Abbado recording, but what a lot of excellent performances are being overlooked!
Even just counting very recent recordings, there are Boulez, Zinman, Tilson Thomas, Fischer and P Jarvi -- especially Boulez, whose Mahler recordings have proven always to be vastly more interesting than one might predict. And then among slightly older ones there's the excellent Herbert Blomstedt, two great performances from Seiji Ozawa, a fine Yoel Levi, the thrilling live Tennstedt, a not-everyone's-cup-of-tea pair of Stokowskis (BBC Legends and RCA), and, perhaps best of all, Leonard Slatkin. Slatkin doesn't exactly have a towering reputation as a Mahlerian (nor as anything else particularly), but his M2 is absolutely thrilling, with perhaps the most impressively massive ending of any recording I've heard.

Thanks for mentioning the Levi, Slatkin, Ozawa [SKO] and Fischer performances arnolj10. The live Tennstedt is one of the most amazing recordings I have ever heard and I would be very interested to hear others responses to this one:

Chalkperson · Post by **Chalkperson** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:33 am

Seán wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:
Tore wrote:I assume this will be this group's future favourite recording:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//6473632.htm

Sir Simon Rattle's new Mahler 2 with the Berliner philharmoniker

Tore F Steenslid
Sotra, Norway
http://www.steenslid.com
Aah, I can already hear Chalkie's cheers!

Tschüß,
Jack
It's got very average reviews so far, as expected...to be fair, his CBSO M2 was actually very good...
Hmmm, I don't really like it.

It was the only one I had for quite a few years...

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