I actually just heard our university orchestra do Don Juan last weekend.Bro wrote:R Strauss : Don Juan
Hindemith: Sinfonia Serania
Bernstein: Fancy Free ballet
Of course! Arguably the first composer to really "open up" the orchestra. I dig it.Modernistfan wrote:Berlioz--Symphonie Fantastique
I know the Prokofiev, but I haven't really spent time with any Respighi. Same as Bernstein: not a fan but will take a look anyway!CharmNewton wrote:Respighi: Pines of Rome
Prokofiev: Classical Symphony
John
Don't know that piece at all! Hopefully I can get a hold of it.johnQpublic wrote:I don't have time now for a list, but the orchestration of "Four Symphonic Quartets" by Tsontakis floored me the first time I heard them.
Great piece! I saw the Australian Chamber Orchestra perform it at the Sydney Opera House in 2009. Fantastic!ContrapunctusIX wrote:Bartok: Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta
Very true! So far my approach has been to exploit the idea that the piece can be a "Concerto for Piano Trio" and a "Concerto for Violin, Cello, and Piano." Know what I mean? So each instrument has moments where it's an individual concerto. These are the parts in which I truly get to dive into colorful orchestration (not to say I can't do it when all three are playing). But yeah...a piano trio takes up so much sonic space on its own that a lot of finesse is required to use the orchestra effectively.John F wrote:If it's a concerto for piano, violin, and cello, maybe flashy orchestration isn't a good idea. Balancing the three soloists with each other and the orchestra might call for a more modest contribution from the orchestra - as with Beethoven's triple concerto, which of course you know. That piece doesn't fully succeed; the cello tends to hog the spotlight.
Rambling on: Berg scored his chamber concerto for piano and violin with an "orchestra" of 13 winds and brass: piccolo, flute, oboe, English horn, E♭ clarinet, A clarinet, bass clarinet, bassoon, contrabassoon, trumpet, two French horns, and trombone. The contrast in timbres certainly makes the soloists stand out. Stravinsky's piano concerto also has an all-winds accompaniment: two flutes, piccolo, two oboes, cor anglais, two clarinets, two bassoons (second bassoon doubling contrabassoon), four horns, four trumpets, three trombones and tuba. Well, not quite all-winds, as he adds timpani, cymbals, and 3 double basses. This is a big sound, the piano can stand up to it but maybe not the violin and certainly not the cello.
I don't know Czernowin's music, but I can say I'm simply not interested in Lachenmann and Andre. Same goes for Cage and Ferrari. Feldman has some intriguing ideas, though. Any pieces that you'd particularly recommend?some guy wrote:Otherwise, I would think you'd want some Lachenmann or André or Czernowin, too. Maybe some Klaus Huber or some Steen-Anderson if you can find any.
Gráinne Mulvey has written some orchestral pieces. Akanos is the one I've heard. And Lidia Zielińska's Nobody is Perfect, though only for 17 instruments (and tape) is still something that would be useful, I think. (I noticed a clip on youtube of that, but when I clicked on it, it turned out to be a clip of mine from the Musica Electronica Nova festival, done with my Canon SX10IS, so the sound is not all that great. You could easily get scores from any of the last three people I mentioned, I would think.
And maybe it would be worthwhile to look at some scores by even some only recently deceased but still pretty imaginative and useful people like Cage or Feldman or Luc Ferrari.
Wowza! I'll be getting back to you on most of these. (I know Copland, RVW, etc., of course.) And thanks a bunch for the links!PJME wrote:Pianotrio and large orchestra?
Most of these works can be (partially) seen/heard on You Tube
-Michael Tippett:Triple Concerto (violin, viola, cello and orchestra, 1978–79) ( the slow movement is extremely beautuful, IMO)
This work has a large orchestra with a big percussion section:
Orchestra instrumentation: 1(pic.afl).1.ca(bass ob).2(1.Acl).2bcl.1.cbsn-4.2.2.0-timp.7perc(glsp, vib, mar, tri, tub bells, clash cym, sus cym, 5gongs, s.d, small drum, b.dr, ten dr, cast, clav, 2wdbl)-hp.cel-str(8.8.6.4.4 minimum)
http://youtu.be/uqXFVi3G_to
-Frank Martin's Petite symphonie concertante: piano, harp, harpsichord and strings ( 2 groups).
http://youtu.be/hTkbjOzsLCI
-Ney Rosauro's Concerto for marimba & strings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQdrosJdVTg
- André Jolivet: celloconcerto nr 2 ( can be heard In Cardiff, next week, 111202!!): cello-solo, stringquintet and stringorchestra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YjojYKtUc0
-Jacques Charpentier (studied with Messiaen): Concertino "a la francese" for ondes Martenot,strings and 2 percussion : timpani, 4 tom toms, 3 tam tams, cymbals, maracas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WskMt4Ku7q0
I also think of: Honegger's Concertino da camera for flute, english horn & strings, Coplands Quiet city, Ives' Unanswered question, RVW's Flos campi & Tallis fantasia...
The very lovely Concerto grosso for stringquartet and orchestra by Julian Orbon: 3.2.2.2-4.3.0.0-timp.perc-cel-pft-solo string quartet-strings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5mz9_lMtsg
ps: Stravinsky's pianoconcerto has no cymbals, if Iremember correctly...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IefuB5meYOI
pps: and I agree with Someguy...
My compatriot Luc Brewaeys wrote recently a concerto for alto flute, horn ,10 instruments and electronics.
This works has not been posted on You Tube. "Oban ", for 9 instruments gives a good idea however of his music & style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhIg00b_6ao
P.
Allen wrote:Ravel's Bolero
I've spent time with the Messiaen, Webern, and Schoenberg but not the Boulez. I'll give it a go!Sator wrote:Messiaen Turangalîla Symphony
Webern Sechs Orchesterstuecke Opus 6
Boulez Rituel: In Memoriam Bruno Maderna
Schoenberg Variations for Orchestra
I particularly recommend that you listen to some Lachenmann, André, Cage, and Ferrari.IcedNote wrote:I don't know Czernowin's music, but I can say I'm simply not interested in Lachenmann and Andre. Same goes for Cage and Ferrari. Feldman has some intriguing ideas, though. Any pieces that you'd particularly recommend?
Gráinne's a female name. The composer with that name is a very nice woman.IcedNote wrote:I know nothing of Mulvey, so I'll be sure to check him out.
I don't know. I find that work completely uninteresting and, more importantly, uninspiring.jbuck919 wrote:A am appalled that two of our chief connoisseurs have rather gratuitously lent their voices to an extension of the recurrent and IMO unjustified belittling of the Triple Concerto. But I am not going to accuse Mark of only repeating an opinion he has heard from others, and John F. certainly did not get his opinion from the Wikipedia article.
Oh, they're by no means "taking turns." And I'm doing it completely intuitively, so I highly doubt anyone will be able to anticipate when the textural changes occur. But who knows!diegobueno wrote:The biggest trouble with the Beethoven Triple Concerto is that he expended so much of his ingenuity on balancing all of the different instrumental permutations -- piano with orchestra, violin with orchestra, cello with orchestra, 3 soloists without orchestra, 2 soloists with orchestra, 3 soloists with orchestra -- that he forgot to write any interesting music. I think you're biggest challenge is getting a musical structure which flows logically as a satisfying whole, and yet has room for all these different textures. You've got to cover all the same bases that Beethoven did, but don't let the audience become aware of this systematic turn-taking by the various instruments and instrumental combinations.
It's a big challenge. Beethoven wasn't up to it. Good luck!
The Ravel and Rimsky are both sitting near my bed.bigshot wrote:Ravel Daphnis and Chloe
Rimsky Korsakov Schehrezade
Stokowski's Bach Transcriptions
That is correct, Gráinne is an Irish name, it's the Irish for Grace.some guy wrote:I particularly recommend that you listen to some Lachenmann, André, Cage, and Ferrari.IcedNote wrote:I don't know Czernowin's music, but I can say I'm simply not interested in Lachenmann and Andre. Same goes for Cage and Ferrari. Feldman has some intriguing ideas, though. Any pieces that you'd particularly recommend?
Gráinne's a female name. The composer with that name is a very nice woman.IcedNote wrote:I know nothing of Mulvey, so I'll be sure to check him out.
Et tu, Brute?IcedNote wrote:I don't know. I find that work completely uninteresting and, more importantly, uninspiring.jbuck919 wrote:A am appalled that two of our chief connoisseurs have rather gratuitously lent their voices to an extension of the recurrent and IMO unjustified belittling of the Triple Concerto. But I am not going to accuse Mark of only repeating an opinion he has heard from others, and John F. certainly did not get his opinion from the Wikipedia article.
-G
I've heard Feria and Arena. I thought they were pretty interesting. Thanks for reminding me of them!Guitarist wrote:I like Magnus Lindberg's orchestral works--give them a listen, especially these:
Ah, yes. I looked at some other Dutilleux, but not this one. Will add it to my list!PJME wrote:I almost forgot this one:
Henri Dutilleux: Mystère de l'instant (for cymbalum, string orchestra and percussion, 1989), 10 brillantly orchestrated pieces .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf2zo6rFkFg
P.
The Boulez Rituel in Memoriam Bruno Maderna is a bit like Bolero on shamanistic hallucinogens. It is written for eight groups of instruments spread out over a wide performance space with a very rich and prominent percussion section. Each group, except the brass, is conducted by a percussionist keeping the individual group in tempo. The separate groups each have a rhythmic independence of each other, while the larger scale organisation is maintained by the principle conductor. As with the Ravel, the main theme repeats obsessively over and over reaching an ultimate climax. It's quasi tonal character means that it should be very accessible to a much wider audience, and I am always surprised it isn't heard more often since it is an immeasurably more emotionally gripping and approachable work than, say, Berio's Sinfonia. Some aspects of the work remind me of Stravinsky's Rite, although this is a ritual not a rite - a kind of deliberately primitivistic ritual for the dead, an almost shamanistic sending off of a friend to the netherworld, with Boulez as chief shaman imploring the spirit world to receive the soul of his friend. Powerful stuff indeed!IcedNote wrote:
I've spent time with the Messiaen, Webern, and Schoenberg but not the Boulez. I'll give it a go!
-G
Just listened, and I found it fairly captivating! For some reason I'm more sensitive to pacing in "modern" music, and I thought Boulez did a particularly wonderful job in this piece. That could be because the timbres he's using require more time to digest. I'd have to think more about it, but that seems about right. Hopefully I can get my hands on the score (haven't checked our library yet) and look at it in more detail.Sator wrote:The Boulez Rituel in Memoriam Bruno Maderna is a bit like Bolero on shamanistic hallucinogens. It is written for eight groups of instruments spread out over a wide performance space with a very rich and prominent percussion section. Each group, except the brass, is conducted by a percussionist keeping the individual group in tempo. The separate groups each have a rhythmic independence of each other, while the larger scale organisation is maintained by the principle conductor. As with the Ravel, the main theme repeats obsessively over and over reaching an ultimate climax. It's quasi tonal character means that it should be very accessible to a much wider audience, and I am always surprised it isn't heard more often since it is an immeasurably more emotionally gripping and approachable work than, say, Berio's Sinfonia. Some aspects of the work remind me of Stravinsky's Rite, although this is a ritual not a rite - a kind of deliberately primitivistic ritual for the dead, an almost shamanistic sending off of a friend to the netherworld, with Boulez as chief shaman imploring the spirit world to receive the soul of his friend. Powerful stuff indeed!
Try this set for some extraordinary playing of Ravel's music:IcedNote wrote:Damn, I just listened to Ravel's orchestration of his piano piece "Alborada del Gracioso." Did that little man EVER run out of ideas?!
Jealous.
-G
Yes, there's fantastic orchestration in the (very reasonable) sense that is usually emphasized, as in this thread, and then there is fantastic orchestration in the sense of the genius of fusing the disposition of instrumental parts with the structure of a great composition. In the latter sense, the most "fantastic" orchestrator of all time was Beethoven.Teresa B wrote:Best of luck! I may be hopelessly stuck in the 18th century, but Mozart's Piano Concerto no 17 (K453) to me is one of the most beautifully orchestrated pieces ever.
Teresa
Guess you might say that I need to learn what my colors are before I can learn how to paint with them.jbuck919 wrote: Yes, there's fantastic orchestration in the (very reasonable) sense that is usually emphasized, as in this thread, and then there is fantastic orchestration in the sense of the genius of fusing the disposition of instrumental parts with the structure of a great composition. In the latter sense, the most "fantastic" orchestrator of all time was Beethoven.
My comment was not intended to put your interesting and fruitful inquiry in a bad light. And if it makes you feel any better, any real insight you may ever have into the depths of Beethoven will probably be more than I have ever been able to accomplish.IcedNote wrote:Guess you might say that I need to learn what my colors are before I can learn how to paint with them.jbuck919 wrote: Yes, there's fantastic orchestration in the (very reasonable) sense that is usually emphasized, as in this thread, and then there is fantastic orchestration in the sense of the genius of fusing the disposition of instrumental parts with the structure of a great composition. In the latter sense, the most "fantastic" orchestrator of all time was Beethoven.
*awaits onslaught of snooty remarks about putting the cart before the horse*
No, no, my friend! Not aimed at you. Others? Perhaps.jbuck919 wrote:My comment was not intended to put your interesting and fruitful inquiry in a bad light. And if it makes you feel any better, any real insight you may ever have into the depths of Beethoven will probably be more than I have ever been able to accomplish.
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