Your changing musical tastes

[Belle]

Also, maestrob, for what it's worth - Carlos Kleiber was largely 'self taught' too!!

Thanks, Belle! For the record, I graduated from Villanova University with a degree in Modern Languages and a double major (Education/French, with Russian as my minor) before moving to Manhattan in 1973. This means that I am licensed to teach K-12 in all 50 states. That degree sure came in handy when coaching singers for my competition, although I never held an official teaching position. Continuous learning has been a hallmark of my life and is what draws me to this excellent forum!

I looked up Villanova University and it's a Catholic university!! Hadn't heard of it before. We have one (or more) here; Australian Catholic University. The RCs have certainly had fingers in a lot of pies; charity, hospitals, schools, universities and aged care in Australia. All our children went through the Catholic school system from start to finish.

Life-long learning: a feature of our extended family and that which gives life much of its meaning. My mid-60s sister has started a law degree this year and is doing well, though she's complaining about Contract Law right at the moment. My (only remaining) daughter-in-law is doing her "practice certificate" in Law with her father, who is a Barrister in his own practice. She is going to make a run for Federal politics and feels that people are tired of political staffers (which she has been) and is trying to get a more rounded life experience before her attempt.

Listening to the Schumann Piano Sonata #2 very early this morning; it's taken me a while to warm to it because it seems so full of Schumann 'tunes' rather than a cohesive whole.

[lennygoran]

Belle is that the villanova in Pa-we're down here in that area for garden viewing-both yesterday at private gardens and again today for a public garden-great weather! We've been staying in wilmington delaware and king of prussia, Pa. Villanova has a nice garden too if I recall. Len

https://www.google.com/search?client=ta ... 9872075459

[maestrob]

Belle is that the villanova in Pa-we're down here in that area for garden viewing-both yesterday at private gardens and again today for a public garden-great weather! We've been staying in wilmington delaware and king of prussia, Pa. Villanova has a nice garden too if I recall. Len

https://www.google.com/search?client=ta ... 9872075459

Hi, Len!

Yes, that's Villanova University on the Main Line just 13 miles west of Philadelphia. I grew up in Wayne, just two miles west of the Villanova campus which is on Lancaster Ave. If you're in King of Prussia, there's a mall there where I worked while attending university. A lovely neighborhood, and quite a wealthy one.

[lennygoran]

Yes, that's Villanova University on the Main Line just 13 miles west of Philadelphia. I grew up in Wayne, just two miles west of the Villanova campus which is on Lancaster Ave. If you're in King of Prussia, there's a mall there where I worked while attending university. A lovely neighborhood, and quite a wealthy one.

Brian we passed right through there today-first there was the controversy involving Stoneleigh-Villanova lost and we visited there today:
https://natlands.org/news/stoneleigh-saved/
then we went to one of our favorite gardens-Chanticleer right in Wayne-today their Teacup garden was just superb-what a combination of colors and incredible plant material-it was a great weather day and our 2 days of private and public gardens was just superb! Regards, Len

[maestrob]

Lovely, Len. Thanks for all the pictures. Wayne is where I grew up: it's barely 10 minutes away from Villanova (2 short stops on the train). So glad you got to visit the area!

[diegobueno]

One of the great pleasures I take in music is discovering new music (that is, new to me) and taking pleasure in it, absorbing its contents and adding it to my memory banks so to speak, and finding out what makes it work. As I get older I find that certain stylistic categories have been filled up, and I have no interest in listening to other similar music.

I realized this when I was considering buying one of the several complete Bach CD sets that are available. If you love Bach, why not have all of it, right? But I have to confess, I would never listen to all of that music. I've tried individual discs of cantatas, and while acknowledging that this was all great stuff, it's stuff that's great in a similar way to all of the Bach cantatas I absorbed and grew to love when I was young. My brain has no room for more Bach cantatas.

Similarly, my brain has no more room for more Mozart or Haydn either. Fortunately, I absorbed a great deal of these two composers early on, including almost all of the Haydn symphonies and string quartets. This music continues to give me pleasure when I listen to it, but I don't listen to it very often, because it doesn't have thrill of novelty any more. I will not explore unknown music by either of these composers, nor that of other classical period composers.

And I really have heard enough romantic period music for one lifetime. I have no interest in ever listening to the lesser-known romantics that are constantly being served up on recordings.

The only music that interests me these days, apart from all the standard and non-standard repertory that I already love, is music of the 20th and 21st centuries, preferably music that retains a foothold on tonality but doesn't try to rehash old styles.

Yes, I've limited myself greatly. There's a tremendous amount of absolutely fabulous music that I will never get to know. I realize this. But if I were to investigate all of that older music, I would never find time for the glories of music being written right now, or from my lifetime that I feel I need to hear. So that's why it was so gratifying to discover the string quartets of Ben Johnston, which really expand what's possible in music, and still manage to sound good.

Recent works of Steve Reich or Michael Torke or Caroline Shaw, spark joy in me and so I will have to discard the earlier music which does not.

[lennygoran]

So glad you got to visit the area!

Brian we go there often-the area is loaded with great gardens! Regards, Len

[Rach3]

The only music that interests me these days, apart from all the standard and non-standard repertory that I already love, is music of the 20th and 21st centuries, preferably music that retains a foothold on tonality but doesn't try to rehash old styles.

Some of these I enjoy may meet some of your criteria,fww:

Piano music of Moslov,Protopopov,Feinberg,Ustvolskaya ( and her Sym. # 1 and Grand Duet )

Weinberg , String Quartet # 5, Piano sonata # 3, Cello Concerto,Sym. # 3

Bridge , Piano Sonata

Britten,Violin Concerto

Arthur Lourie, “Phoenix Park “ Nocturne, other solo piano music

Mennin Piano Concerto

Absil piano concertos 1-3

Aho piano concertos

Janacek Violin Sonata

Carter Piano Sonata

Weill Symphonies, VC

Rautavaara Clarinet Concerto,piano etudes and sonatas,Cello Concerto,Violin Concerto

Huw Watkins, VC

Roberto Gerhard , Violin Concerto

Hindemith Piano Sonata # 3, Four Temperaments

De Falla,Fantasia Beatica

Honegger , Cello Concerto

Henry Martin piano works

Dutilleux piano works, Cello Concerto

Ornstein, piano works

Vine , piano sonatas

Sacre , piano works

Henze, 2nd Piano Concerto

Lilburn,piano sonatas

Antheil, piano concertos

Ethan Wickman, various

George Lloyd,various

[diegobueno]

Rautavaara Clarinet Concerto

I heard Stoltzman play this in 2003 in Carnegie Hall. It wasn't the premiere performance, but close to it. It's a beautiful work, and Stoltzman sounded fabulous. The concerto spends a lot of time in the upper altissimo register, many ledger lines above the staff. I had just interviewed him for a piece in The Clarinet, the magazine of the International Clarinet Association. There was some other little matter that I needed to ask him for the article, I forget what, but his agent arranged it that I should go backstage and meet him after the performance. I got on an elevator with him and his wife and someone else he was talking to. He was telling the person that he had practiced that concerto so hard and as a result his mouth hurt so much he couldn't even kiss his wife. Today he's married to someone else, so maybe there was something else going on. I don't know.

There's a lot on your list that I think would be worth my while to investigate.

[Belle]

I related to your comment about your brain having no more room for certain composers!! Can you post any of the modern works you like, if these are available?

[Rach3]

The only music that interests me these days, apart from all the standard and non-standard repertory that I already love, is music of the 20th and 21st centuries, preferably music that retains a foothold on tonality but doesn't try to rehash old styles.

Here is an exhausting list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2 ... _composers

A few are known to me ; most are not.

I have liked some works of Essa Peka Salonen ,Gavin Bryars,Anton Batagov,John Adams Violin Concerto,piano music of Alwyn. Ten Holt and Peter Eotvos have some reputations as of course do Thomas Ades,Conrad Tao, and Brian Eno. Should keep you busy !

[John F]

And of course Schnittke, whose music ranges from the funny to the profound.

[Lance]

For me, musical tastes haven't changed that much since about the age of 14 or thereabouts. I continue to be hugely interested in, particularly, the Romantic period, but Baroque and Classical are not far behind. Besides, they are constantly discovering music and composers from these periods. For example, once introduced to the music of Johann Nepomuk Hummel years ago, I became a devoted follower (and remain one), just to name one. If there were changes, it seems to be mostly in the music of Mahler and Bruckner, all of whose music I enjoy more than ever, particularly Mahler.

[maestrob]

For me, musical tastes haven't changed that much since about the age of 14 or thereabouts. I continue to be hugely interested in, particularly, the Romantic period, but Baroque and Classical are not far behind. Besides, they are constantly discovering music and composers from these periods. For example, once introduced to the music of Johann Nepomuk Hummel years ago, I became a devoted follower (and remain one), just to name one. If there were changes, it seems to be mostly in the music of Mahler and Bruckner, all of whose music I enjoy more than ever, particularly Mahler.

Lance, I'm delighted the big symphonies are finally making it into your CD player. I've always loved them, and have recommended recordings here in the past. Did you mean to exclude Shostakovich and Prokofiev, or are you listening to the great Russians as well?

As for Hummel, when I first heard his concerti, I was delighted by them. I believe Hummel was an influence on Chopin at a very young age: of course, Chopin's two concerti far surpass Hummel's refined composition in sophistication and newness of expression IMHO.

[John F]

Hummel's six mature piano sonatas are also well worth hearing. It's not Chopin they somewhat anticipate but early Beethoven, while recalling Hummel's teacher Mozart. He also composed three superb string quartets, one of which was recorded by the Hollywood String Quartet. Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqscCuyoVgY

[Rach3]

Certainly agree with you both about Hummel.

His Piano Sonata No.5, Op.81, is wonderful, exquisite slow mov., and I read somewhere it may have been one of the works Roberts Schumann was trying to play when he invented the practicing contraption on which he injured his hand. The A minor Piano Concerto, Op.85, slow mov. is marked " larghetto" , as I believe is the slow mov. of Chopin's F minor PC, and one can certainly hear Chopin in the Hummel,and vice versa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTjtrWh5Q8I&t=29s ( Sonata )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqrNZW5H7kc ( Concerto )

[John F]

Speaking of early Romantic piano concertos, I've long enjoyed Weber's two concertos, especially no. 2. Weber's Konzertstück for piano and orchestra is fairly well known but the concertos are real rarities. Malcolm Frager played and recorded them in the early 1970s and played the second with the New York Philharmonic in 1972; he was still playing it in 1986 with the Boston Symphony at Tanglewood. His fine versions aren't on YouTube but this Naxos recording wll do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWeqzugXRXA&t=7s

[Lance]

Being half Russian (not sure which half!) and half English with other mixtures, I certainly have a great interest in the Russians and admire some of both Prokofiev and Shostakovich insofar as the symphonic or concerted works are concerned, and of course their chamber music. It has taken me much longer to devote time to many of the Shostakovich symphonies with No. 5 being my favourite, but also No. 1 and his final one.

Lance, I'm delighted the big symphonies are finally making it into your CD player. I've always loved them, and have recommended recordings here in the past. Did you mean to exclude Shostakovich and Prokofiev, or are you listening to the great Russians as well?

As for Hummel, when I first heard his concerti, I was delighted by them. I believe Hummel was an influence on Chopin at a very young age: of course, Chopin's two concerti far surpass Hummel's refined composition in sophistication and newness of expression IMHO.

[maestrob]

Thanks for the Weber, John. Here's my preferred version:

[John F]

Here's another early Romantic/late Classical piece that I was startled by when I first heard it, back in college in a recording by Fernand Oubradous. It was composed in Haydn's lifetime but you'd never know it: Etienne Méhul's Symphony No. 2.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyyesKxvd9s

This recording is OK but the third movement is played much too fast.

[diegobueno]

I related to your comment about your brain having no more room for certain composers!! Can you post any of the modern works you like, if these are available?

This is a list of pieces which I have enjoyed and really rock my boat musically speaking. Some of them I've known for a long time, some of them are fairly recently to my knowledge. I start with an old favorite. Michael Tippett was the subject of my DMA dissertation at Cornell, so I have a partiality to him.

Michael Tippett (1905-1998)
Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Symphony no. 1
Symphony no. 2
Fantasia Concertante on a Theme of Corelli (really gorgeous; listen to this one first)
The Midsummer Marriage (one sometimes finds the Ritual Dances from this opera as a concert piece)
Piano Concerto
Symphony no. 3
Symphony no. 4
Triple Concerto for violin, viola and cello with orchestra
The Rose Lake (his final work)

Michael Torke (1961- )
Adjustable Wrench Fiji (I can't get enough of this piece!)
Tahiti Strawberry Fields (one act opera; really effective on stage)
Three Manhattan Bridges (piano concerto)

Steve Reich (1936- )
Quartet (for 2 pianos, 2 vibraphones) (really fine music)
Different Trains
Tehillim
New York Counterpoint
Pulse
Runner
Music for 18 Musicians (ultimate music for long road trips)

Phillip Glass (1937- )
Appomattox (saw this at the National Opera in DC; Wow!)
Koyaanisqatsi (watch the movie that goes with it)
Belle et la Bete (opera set to the Cocteau film; vocal lines synch with the characters on the screen)
John Harbison (1938- )
Mirabai Songs Variations for Violin, Clarinet and Piano (a masterpiece; I recently performed this)
Symphony no. 4

Magnus Lindberg (1958- )
Clarinet Concerto (haunting music; virtuosity so stunning, I could never perform this)

Caroline Shaw (1982- )
Orange (CD of recent works for string quartet; eclectic in style)

Gyorgi Ligeti (1923-2006)
Etudes for Piano

Witold Lutoslawski (1913-1994)
Concerto for Orchestra (a real powerhouse)
Piano Concerto

Ben Johnston (1926-2019)
String Quartet no. 4 “Amazing Grace” String Quartet no. 9 and no. 10 (all three very loveable; use microtones)

William Bolcom (1938- )
Graceful Ghost Rag (one of my Cornell professors walked into the classroom one day and said "before we begin, here is one piece all of you need to know well", and he sat down and played this)

John Corigliano (1938- )
Clarinet Concerto (the virtuoso piece every hot-shot young clarinetist wants to get under their fingers these days)

Mark Adamo (1962- ) (Corigliano's husband)
Little Women (opera; I found it effective on stage, and very enjoyable)
Moby Dick (opera; I didn't see this, but wish I had; I was very favorably reviewed)

You won't like all of them. You might not like any of them. There are many more things that could go on my list, but I'm stopping here.

[Rach3]

This is a list of pieces which I have enjoyed and really rock my boat musically speaking. Some of them I've known for a long time, some of them are fairly recently to my knowledge. I start with an old favorite. Michael Tippett was the subject of my DMA dissertation at Cornell, so I have a partiality to him.

I,too, enjoy Tippett's Piano Concerto.Do hear his piano sonatas; John Ogdon recorded one.

Also agree about the Ligeti Etudes, mine Aimard's recording.

Glass' Piano Etudes and Violin Concerto are great.

Have heard several , but certainly not all , of the others.Torke,Shaw,Lindberg,Reich,Johnston,Corigliano I do not connect with, but that's just me.

[Belle]

Thanks for the list, diegobueno. I'm thinking we need to program some newer music into our music group's programs for 2020. I'll take a listen to some from your list on the internet and it will be easily facilitated for a presentation because we have the internet, power-point and U-Tube available at our venue. Some of the people won't like it but a minority will. That's OK. Our audience varies anyway according to what is being programmed that day. Yesterday's session was all about the jazz Clarinetist George Lewis.

I have long considered the Ligeti "Etudes" but now I'm going to go ahead with it. Programming is underway now for next year's offerings. I'm sure the fecundity of newer music will secure its future. Much of the listeners' access to it is very dependent upon the WAY we listen to music. For example, I would listen in an entirely different way to the Corigliano than I would Haydn. Having listened to some of the former composer's Clarinet concerto, I can hear strong jazz influences! Well, many influences actually. I find it certainly has more vitality (for me) than the Mozart Clarinet Concerto!!!

[Rach3]

For example, I would listen in an entirely different way to the Corigliano than I would Haydn. Having listened to some of the former composer's Clarinet concerto, I can hear strong jazz influences! Well, many influences actually. I find it certainly has more vitality (for me) than the Mozart Clarinet Concerto!!!

The Mozart Clarinet Concerto, for me, is a Michelangelo " David " or " Pieta" in CM, and then add his Clarinet Quintet !! Benny Goodman recorded (more or less) the Mozart Concerto.

[maestrob]

For example, I would listen in an entirely different way to the Corigliano than I would Haydn. Having listened to some of the former composer's Clarinet concerto, I can hear strong jazz influences! Well, many influences actually. I find it certainly has more vitality (for me) than the Mozart Clarinet Concerto!!!

The Mozart Clarinet Concerto, for me, is a Michelangelo " David " or " Pieta" in CM, and then add his Clarinet Quintet !! Benny Goodman recorded (more or less) the Mozart Concerto.

Goodman also recorded the two Weber Clarinet Concerti with Martinon/Chicago, a disc well worth having. It's available now in the box set of Martinon's complete Chicago recordings issued by Sony.

[barney]

Thanks for the Weber, John. Here's my preferred version:

I have that CD too, and esteem it. I also have accounts by a pianist Elizabeth Rich with the Janacek Philharmonic and Dennis Burkh, which I cannot bring to mind at all. Might play that today!

[Seán]

Thanks for noticing! In all the hubbub, since we're talking about my life now, I guess I should mention that after six years' training at Juilliard in conducting orchestral and operatic repertoire with Vincent La Selva, (He sang tenor and I sang baritone roles!), my wife and I produced and conducted 95 programs culminating in an annual vocal competition with cash prizes for recent conservatory graduates here in NYC. Out of that total, 36 concerts were gives in Carnegie Hall over a 7-year span. We placed three singers with the MET, a round dozen with City Opera, several in Germany and even one in Bayreuth! Luckily, I have eight CDs worth of repertoire that I prepared and conducted in these concerts as souvenirs of one of the most fulfilling times in my life. We had from 2-4 Metropolitan Opera artists as judges on our Advisory Panel, including singers and assistant conductors and even a stage director, plus others from NYCO and other professionals. My lead pianist was Gergiev's assistant at the Maryinski Theatre before she emigrated here and was sponsored by Igor Kipnis.

Gosh Brian, that is very impressive. I have lost touch with most people on CMG so much so that I forget from time to time that I am fortunate to be in the company of such a highly talented and knowledgeable people who love to share their opinions and experience with us.

[maestrob]

Thanks for noticing! In all the hubbub, since we're talking about my life now, I guess I should mention that after six years' training at Juilliard in conducting orchestral and operatic repertoire with Vincent La Selva, (He sang tenor and I sang baritone roles!), my wife and I produced and conducted 95 programs culminating in an annual vocal competition with cash prizes for recent conservatory graduates here in NYC. Out of that total, 36 concerts were gives in Carnegie Hall over a 7-year span. We placed three singers with the MET, a round dozen with City Opera, several in Germany and even one in Bayreuth! Luckily, I have eight CDs worth of repertoire that I prepared and conducted in these concerts as souvenirs of one of the most fulfilling times in my life. We had from 2-4 Metropolitan Opera artists as judges on our Advisory Panel, including singers and assistant conductors and even a stage director, plus others from NYCO and other professionals. My lead pianist was Gergiev's assistant at the Maryinski Theatre before she emigrated here and was sponsored by Igor Kipnis.

Gosh Brian, that is very impressive. I have lost touch with most people on CMG so much so that I forget from time to time that I am fortunate to be in the company of such a highly talented and knowledgeable people who love to share their opinions and experience with us.

Sean, you are most kind. Thank-you.

Being here is both a learning and a teaching experience for me, as I'm sure it is for all of us. Given all that I have learned about music and how to create it, I feel that it is a duty to pass on as much knowledge and informed opinion as possible. That is the ultimate joy and motivation of every musically knowledgeable person here. We learn and grow together.

It is a privilege for me to be here as part of what I consider the most civilized and informative musical community on the internet, due, in no small way, to our esteemed moderator's kindness and keen judgement that guides all of us here.