Australian fires

[Lance]

Well, I saw that post but thought it was only temporary. There has always been some friction between the music boards and the Corner Pub. If it is music you really enjoy, I suggest people stick to the music boards. I don't visit there myself very often. My blood pressure is already being monitored! I hope Sue comes back. She has contributed to our boards generously and I miss her.

Sue announced earlier in this thread that she is leaving CMG. Very sad. It seems she finds the politics here too leftish.
It is a horrendous time for wildlife here, Lance. The latest estimate is that billions of animals have died, and billions of insects. That means recovery will be slow and sporadic. Some, like the potaroo may be extinct.It was deeply endangered and its habitat has been wiped out. See the article below for pictures and info.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/08/fires-wi ... -12023158/

[barney]

Well, I saw that post but thought it was only temporary. There has always been some friction between the music boards and the Corner Pub. If it is music you really enjoy, I suggest people stick to the music boards. I don't visit there myself very often. My blood pressure is already being monitored! I hope Sue comes back. She has contributed to our boards generously and I miss her.

Sue announced earlier in this thread that she is leaving CMG. Very sad. It seems she finds the politics here too leftish.
It is a horrendous time for wildlife here, Lance. The latest estimate is that billions of animals have died, and billions of insects. That means recovery will be slow and sporadic. Some, like the potaroo may be extinct.It was deeply endangered and its habitat has been wiped out. See the article below for pictures and info.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/08/fires-wi ... -12023158/

You are right, of course, Lance. Sue has enjoyed the musical aspects. She, like the rest of us, no doubt misses JohnF, with whom she enjoyed vigorous and interesting correspondence. I notice the board is a little less active in his absence. But, like you, I hope she returns and ignores the Corner Pub.

[lennygoran]

She, like the rest of us, no doubt misses JohnF, with whom she enjoyed vigorous and interesting correspondence. I notice the board is a little less active in his absence. But, like you, I hope she returns and ignores the Corner Pub.

She should return-maybe she should ignore the Pub-her sister who I believe worked for hillary could take her place here in the Pub! Regards, Len [fleeing and running for cover]

[barney]

She, like the rest of us, no doubt misses JohnF, with whom she enjoyed vigorous and interesting correspondence. I notice the board is a little less active in his absence. But, like you, I hope she returns and ignores the Corner Pub.

She should return-maybe she should ignore the Pub-her sister who I believe worked for hillary could take her place here in the Pub! Regards, Len [fleeing and running for cover]

I've always intended to go teetotal myself, Len. But somehow it never quite works. Too opinionated, no doubt.

[lennygoran]

I've always intended to go teetotal myself, Len. But somehow it never quite works. Too opinionated, no doubt.

Barney your opinions are very much appreciated by me-keep them coming! Regards, Len

[barney]

Too kind, Len. We have to be able to express ourselves somewhere, don't we? Mind you, I am reminded of Samuel Johnson's dictum, "no man but a blockhead ever wrote for money". I used to get paid for my opinions once! Or rather for a few of them. Hard to believe, I know...

[Rach3]

From New York Times' Sydney bureau chief, " The End of Australia as We Know It ":

https://tinyurl.com/r8yeooc

[barney]

Thanks for posting that Rach 3.
This has certainly been the most apocalyptic summer I can remember. Ironically, since that appalling December, the summer where I live in Melbourne has been unusually clement and wet. Today, mid-February, usually the hottest month of the year, will be 24 (75) with a 95% chance of rain. The threat of fires around me has receded, although if we have another sustained hot spell, it will re-emerge strongly. If the ground dries out again and the national park a kilometre from me goes up, thousands of homes could be destroyed. That's worst-case, of course.
But the NYT is certainly right that vast numbers of Australians who were not particularly exercised by environmental concerns now are very aware of them, and the climate (if I can be forgiven the pun) is ripe for change. The Government is now scrambling to show it is taking climate seriously, though most people have grave doubts. We all remember the Prime Minister (before he had that role) coming into Parliament with a lump of coal and mocking climate activists.

[Rach3]

We all remember the Prime Minister (before he had that role) coming into Parliament with a lump of coal and mocking climate activists.

Mother Nature often gets the last laugh.

[Belle]

Thanks for posting that Rach 3.
This has certainly been the most apocalyptic summer I can remember. Ironically, since that appalling December, the summer where I live in Melbourne has been unusually clement and wet. Today, mid-February, usually the hottest month of the year, will be 24 (75) with a 95% chance of rain. The threat of fires around me has receded, although if we have another sustained hot spell, it will re-emerge strongly. If the ground dries out again and the national park a kilometre from me goes up, thousands of homes could be destroyed. That's worst-case, of course.
But the NYT is certainly right that vast numbers of Australians who were not particularly exercised by environmental concerns now are very aware of them, and the climate (if I can be forgiven the pun) is ripe for change. The Government is now scrambling to show it is taking climate seriously, though most people have grave doubts. We all remember the Prime Minister (before he had that role) coming into Parliament with a lump of coal and mocking climate activists.

No, this certainly won't pass muster. And it shows how one single action in politics can be interpreted by people who march to a different agenda. Our PM was supporting people in the coal industry, not mocking activists - since this country had already signed up to the Paris accord and keeping to the targets (and still is). Now our Labor Party is riven by the same dilemmas with a dissenting group from their party meeting in a Canberra restaurant because they are tired of the urban-centric view of climate change and its impact upon ordinary people who live in 'the bush'. After all, these people in the bush are just 'dumb' like the American 'deplorables'.

Our Chief Scientist (Dr. Alan Finkel) said at the National Press Club Address (in Canberra) last week that we cannot rely on current generation renewables because "they behave badly". This was one and the same man who said Australia could do nothing about world climate if it reduced ALL our 1.5% emissions. Well, there's his gig done and dusted!! People like myself who are aware of that fact are still called 'deniers' with the religious zeal, chapter and verse, of the Old Testament. My position is that if people in Australia believe we can stop our own fires, droughts and floods by reducing our 1.5% worth of global emissions in a single-action endeavour then we'd be absolutely mad not to do it. This is the absurdity of the level of current debates on this issue. Just like the predictions of one of our 'celebrated' climate activists that our dams would never be full again because it was never going to rain. Sydney is currently on 81% after recent rains. I mean, you couldn't make this stuff up!!

A first-world, energy and resource-rich nation like Australia was always going to be riven to its very core by climate politics. My 10 year old grandson could tell you that. But it will never satisfy the climate catastropharians out there. It's their new secular religion. And our 'sin' is having the 5th highest standard of living in the world.

Meanwhile, back in sunny Perth, Western Australia, they're having a beautiful summer. As my grandson observed, 'climate change has been having a year off this year in Western Australia".

[lennygoran]

Belle hope you've been safe-just yesterday I watched the DVRed latest 60 minutes and this was one segment-they interviewed the previous prime minister and the current one. Regards, Len

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/australia ... 020-02-16/

Climate change's role in Australia's fires
Scientists say climate change is behind the unprecedented intensity of the bushfires that have burned a reported 27 million acres in Australia. Holly Williams reports.Feb 16, 2020

[Rach3]

You can be the judge of mocking ; suffice to say the same speech wouldn't be given today I suspect : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea5bOaPkZpc

[Belle]

You don't know anything about Australian politics. Any 'mocking' will have been of the Labor Party because it's TOTALLY DIVIDED over the issue of climate change - and that's a major reason they LOST the last election. That and robbery of the middle class.

Thinking about why a party or person lost the last election; that's something you Americans might try. Since the day our government was elected the media has refused to accept it - just as they did in the USA - and have been busy withdrawing 'loser consent', which is so fundamental to democracy. Now that the press has been outed as activists and antagonists, the people are taking less and less notice of any of them with their rallying cries for their own causes and their fake news. Daily they parse the sentences and body language of our PM and try to bring him down, just as they did with former PM Tony Abbott.

I'm not an admirer of Donald Trump but I admire his absolute refusal to bend to the activist Left and media who've been trying to get him out of office since November, 2016. And the people get it, just as I and my grandchildren do.

[Belle]

Belle hope you've been safe-just yesterday I watched the DVRed latest 60 minutes and this was one segment-they interviewed the previous prime minister and the current one. Regards, Len

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/australia ... 020-02-16/

Climate change's role in Australia's fires
Scientists say climate change is behind the unprecedented intensity of the bushfires that have burned a reported 27 million acres in Australia. Holly Williams reports.Feb 16, 2020

Our erstwhile PM, Malcolm Turnbull has HUGE investments in renewables and he HAS to demolish the present government's stance to PROTECT HIS OWN INVESTMENTS. Clearly, he's going to be preoccupied trying to demolish the words of our Chief Scientist, aided and abetted by activist media. Not transparent, or anything..

You don't have to believe everything you see and hear on activist media. One day impartial reporting and journalism might return to our polity and then you can be free to take it seriously. In the meantime, wider reading recommended.

The climate is changing but intelligent Australians know as our Chief Scientist does; if we reduce ALL our emissions this will make zip difference to world climate. Refusal to accept this only confirms that we are truly in the realm of quasi-religious belief and NOT SCIENCE.
Like I said in my previous comment, the activist/partisan media will make sure our Chief Scientist isn't taken seriously henceforth - but the rest of Australia (yes, I know; they're dumb and deplorable) has listened and listened hard.

Our government is laggard with regard to economic reform and a more active role in legislative terms, but I won't stand by and hear them criticized because of an international beat-up. Australian people know that the alternative government we have here would be like electing Bernie Sanders.

[lennygoran]

I'm not an admirer of Donald Trump but I admire his absolute refusal to bend to the activist Left and media who've been trying to get him out of office since November, 2016. And the people get it, just as I and my grandchildren do.

Belle you're way off the mark here-let's start by seeing his income tax returns-the man's a mafia crook possibly looking to turn himself into a mussolini dictator-he's completely out of control. Regards, Len

[Holden Fourth]

Belle hope you've been safe-just yesterday I watched the DVRed latest 60 minutes and this was one segment-they interviewed the previous prime minister and the current one. Regards, Len

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/australia ... 020-02-16/

Climate change's role in Australia's fires
Scientists say climate change is behind the unprecedented intensity of the bushfires that have burned a reported 27 million acres in Australia. Holly Williams reports.Feb 16, 2020

The intensity of our bushfires was the result of a massive build up of ground fuel in our national parks and other areas. This has nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with misguided decision making. I'm not pointing the figure at any political groups ()though I could) but shire councils and other governing bodies got this disastrously wrong.

I heard a very interesting podcast on the ABC last week talking about how the aboriginals used fire to help renew the land and keep it fertile. To summarise, it worked extremely well. And it is in stark contrast to how we now try and manage our land. Two of the scientists interviewed on this podcast, both eminent Australians, thoroughly poo-pooed the idea that climate change was the cause of this fire season.

EDIT:

This is not the podcast (I can't find it) but the ABC video below made in 2013 sums up the whole fire issue in Australia from cause to prevention. Not much mention of climate change.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-08/ ... d/11946944

[barney]

You don't know anything about Australian politics. Any 'mocking' will have been of the Labor Party because it's TOTALLY DIVIDED over the issue of climate change - and that's a major reason they LOST the last election. That and robbery of the middle class.

Thinking about why a party or person lost the last election; that's something you Americans might try. Since the day our government was elected the media has refused to accept it - just as they did in the USA - and have been busy withdrawing 'loser consent', which is so fundamental to democracy. Now that the press has been outed as activists and antagonists, the people are taking less and less notice of any of them with their rallying cries for their own causes and their fake news. Daily they parse the sentences and body language of our PM and try to bring him down, just as they did with former PM Tony Abbott.

I'm not an admirer of Donald Trump but I admire his absolute refusal to bend to the activist Left and media who've been trying to get him out of office since November, 2016. And the people get it, just as I and my grandchildren do.

Goodness, Sue, sometimes I think we live on different planets. The Right has a wild conspiracy about leftist media, and it seems to have influenced you.

First, let's admit straight away that some commentary on climate change does amount to a religious zeal, and all its tenets are taken as articles of faith. And these people are shouting loudly into the echo chamber, as you claim. But between that and the News Corp climate deniers there's a huge range of positions, including many of utterly legitimate concern at the changes to the climate and to the vast challenges facing Australia. Any reasonable person would acknowledge this. The Age, for example, is in my view far less agenda-driven on the issue of climate change than the Australian. Probably the Guardian is its counter-point. I am careful to read both Age and Australian every day, to balance the chips on each shoulder.


Obviously we are entitled to differing opinions on this, but I think you have vastly misread the Australian public. Nearly all of us are really worried about the droughts, floods, bushfires and loss of amenity and all the rest. You say Labour is divided on climate - maybe, though I haven't noticed it. Perhaps you could point out why you say that. But the Coalition has certainly torn itself apart, losing both Turnbull and Abbott as Prime Ministers over it. Abbott losing his seat has diminished the influence of the hard right on climate, but it's still a major force in the Coalition. One of the areas in which I think Scott Morrison showed some widsom was hastily changing his position during the fires to admit Australia has to take climate change into account. Rach 3 is right - he would never haul a lump of coal into Parliament today.

You say climate change is far from the only factor, and the failure to reduce ground fuel is also a huge factor. I entirely agree, but we have to take ALL factors into account in our planning.


With a family member in close service to the PM, it is natural for you to take a benign view of Morrison. And often that is fair enough, of course. Where you are out of step with the Australian public, in my view, is defending his previous attitude to climate and in defending his racist slurs when many people expressed concern about Gladys Liu's divided loyalties to the Chinese Communist Party and Australia, and he claimed that anyone who was concerned about Liu was racist against all Chinese Australians. Absurd, unworthy, and straight out of the Beijing playbook.

[Rach3]

Goodness, Sue, sometimes I think we live on different planets. The Right has a wild conspiracy about leftist media, and it seems to have influenced you.

Yesterday Trump declared himself to be the chief law enforcement officer in the US with a right to intervene in or even commence proceedings,and then exhibited his belief by once again criticizing,threatening the prosecutors and Judge in the Stone case, and by granting pardons to a number of rogues, some with ties to him.He also appointed a different Brooklyn,NY Federal prosecutor to oversee and have sole decision power over the Federal criminal investigation into Rudi Giuliani,previously being handled solely by the Manhattan,NY Federal prosecutor, and recently threatened to retaliate against the State of New York in several ways because the State refuses to drop State investigations into tax fraud and other fraud by Trump's companies.He previously fired the Vindmans.He diverted this week $3.5B Congress directed for our military to his useless Wall project, and suspended competitive bidding for the project to help finish the project by Election Day.He's also now spent more than half the days he's been President golfing at his resorts, at taxpayer expense approaching $200M.He lies daily to the American people about protecting their health insurance coverage while asking the Courts to throw out ObamaCare,destroying that very coverage for many, with no GOP replacement plan anywhere in sight, and while changing Medicare rules which will increase prescription costs.There is much more of course, the above just some of the "little" stuff. There is a conspiracy , alright .

[barney]

Doesn't conspiracy imply some level of secrecy? This vile, squalid President sees no need for that. He tramples over the Constitution and tradition and truth on a daily base, and half the American population - apparently - says hurrah. It doesn't help, of course, that the Democrats also seem so unelectable.

[Rach3]

... and half the American population - apparently - says hurrah. It doesn't help, of course, that the Democrats also seem so unelectable.

Quite right, the American dilemma exactly.No heroes anywhere in sight.We have met the enemy and he is us.

[Rach3]

A USA "fire" coming ?

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/co ... -response/

[barney]

A USA "fire" coming ?

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/31/co ... -response/

It's astoundingly irresponsible. But that cretin doesn't care. It's impossible to get inside his mind, because he doesn't have one as the term is usually defined - he just has an ego, a monstrous ego that swallows every issue and every person.
Every time I look at our lightweight PM, "Scotty from marketing" as former PM Kevin Rudd has cruelly but not unfairly dubbed him, I think: "It could be far worse. We could have someone like Trump."

[Rach3]

But then there is Sanders:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics ... index.html
(Cost of his plans; but, article doe not include his recently announced free child-care and pre-school for all thru age 4 )

https://tinyurl.com/vosk69o ( Castro not all bad )

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpoli ... -explained

https://vtdigger.org/2020/02/23/bernie- ... d-on-guns/

And recent heart attack, no foreign policy experience or much policy.

America is producing very little qualified leadership in either party, has not for years.Rest of the World needs to step up.

[barney]

And so it is, Rach3, but not in a good way: China, Russia, Hungary etc. "Strong" leaders.

A Chinese official came on one of Australia's leading news shows last night, and just kept lying through his teeth. There is press freedom in China, it is a democracy, the Uighurs are safe and happy and not in concentration camps, he just kept spinning. China is our biggest trading partner, but people are increasingly realising it is a hostile power, constantly hacking, spying, trying to control our universities and other institutions, trying to get their own man elected to Federal Parliament (oddly, he died after outing them despite being only in his 30s), putting pressure on Chinese Australians. I'm not anti-Chinese, who are simply people like everyone else, and they are welcome in Australia where their numbers are increasing rapidly, but the regime is pretty awful.
It's one of the reasons it's so important the US doesn't retreat, but soon you won't have any choice, you will be in decline yourself.

[Rach3]

It is reported 38% of Americans won't buy or drink Corona beer because of the Coronavirus.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/28/business ... index.html

Once you've grasped that, Trump's Presidency is less of an enigma.

[barney]

Thanks Rach3, you've made my day. That really amused me.
(mind you, in fairness, I'm not sure a sample of 750 beer drinkers really represents a nation of more than 300 million. Still, it's probably large enough to be statistically significant.)

[Holden Fourth]

Saw this on FB

"Male coronavirus sufferer looking to hook up with lady who has Lyme disease"

[barney]

Saw this on FB

"Male coronavirus sufferer looking to hook up with lady who has Lyme disease"

Very good. To quote Basil Brush, whom you are probably old enough to remember, "boom boom!"

[Belle]

You don't know anything about Australian politics. Any 'mocking' will have been of the Labor Party because it's TOTALLY DIVIDED over the issue of climate change - and that's a major reason they LOST the last election. That and robbery of the middle class.

Thinking about why a party or person lost the last election; that's something you Americans might try. Since the day our government was elected the media has refused to accept it - just as they did in the USA - and have been busy withdrawing 'loser consent', which is so fundamental to democracy. Now that the press has been outed as activists and antagonists, the people are taking less and less notice of any of them with their rallying cries for their own causes and their fake news. Daily they parse the sentences and body language of our PM and try to bring him down, just as they did with former PM Tony Abbott.

I'm not an admirer of Donald Trump but I admire his absolute refusal to bend to the activist Left and media who've been trying to get him out of office since November, 2016. And the people get it, just as I and my grandchildren do.

Goodness, Sue, sometimes I think we live on different planets. The Right has a wild conspiracy about leftist media, and it seems to have influenced you.

First, let's admit straight away that some commentary on climate change does amount to a religious zeal, and all its tenets are taken as articles of faith. And these people are shouting loudly into the echo chamber, as you claim. But between that and the News Corp climate deniers there's a huge range of positions, including many of utterly legitimate concern at the changes to the climate and to the vast challenges facing Australia. Any reasonable person would acknowledge this. The Age, for example, is in my view far less agenda-driven on the issue of climate change than the Australian. Probably the Guardian is its counter-point. I am careful to read both Age and Australian every day, to balance the chips on each shoulder.


Obviously we are entitled to differing opinions on this, but I think you have vastly misread the Australian public. Nearly all of us are really worried about the droughts, floods, bushfires and loss of amenity and all the rest. You say Labour is divided on climate - maybe, though I haven't noticed it. Perhaps you could point out why you say that. But the Coalition has certainly torn itself apart, losing both Turnbull and Abbott as Prime Ministers over it. Abbott losing his seat has diminished the influence of the hard right on climate, but it's still a major force in the Coalition. One of the areas in which I think Scott Morrison showed some widsom was hastily changing his position during the fires to admit Australia has to take climate change into account. Rach 3 is right - he would never haul a lump of coal into Parliament today.

You say climate change is far from the only factor, and the failure to reduce ground fuel is also a huge factor. I entirely agree, but we have to take ALL factors into account in our planning.


With a family member in close service to the PM, it is natural for you to take a benign view of Morrison. And often that is fair enough, of course. Where you are out of step with the Australian public, in my view, is defending his previous attitude to climate and in defending his racist slurs when many people expressed concern about Gladys Liu's divided loyalties to the Chinese Communist Party and Australia, and he claimed that anyone who was concerned about Liu was racist against all Chinese Australians. Absurd, unworthy, and straight out of the Beijing playbook.

Goodness Barney, we are living on different planets. You seem surprised that somebody would have a different opinion! A bit like me saying 'goodness me; doesn't everybody drive a Mercedes Benz?".

I'm an economic progressive but a socially conservative Catholic (like Wynton Marsalis, whom I recently found out is exactly the same). And I support our PM's alignment with the Australian working class through coal, unlike the Member for Hunter (whom I know and who is as thick as two short planks) who nearly lost his seat - and Labor, which has lost 3 in succession and will continue to lose them because they fail to understand that Australians are fed up to the back teeth with identity politics, ideology, cancel culture, censuring, hectoring, lecturing and thought control from the bien pensant. And let's not forget grievance porn. It think it is they who are light years from ordinary Australians - but I want them to keep up their grand illusions as it will keep Labor away from the treasury benches for years to come. And I get to continue to be an economic progressive with one child in business and the other in mining services - unlike my Lefty sisters who live on EXTREMELY generous government risk-free Defined Benefits superannuation after a life on the public payroll but who wanted me to hand mine over to the Labor Party before the last election!! (And one and the same sister has already blocked the development of a coal mine where she had 100 acres and at least one apartment development near the waterfront where she lives now. That's cancel culture - in one form at least. But, hand on heart they'll tell you they really care about people and jobs.) Not for them an economic wipe-out and uncertainty when the share market 'corrects' - so naturally they can afford to wring their hands about their vanity projects.

If only the ordinary people had the exquisite virtues, values and understanding of the educated inner urban people they'd all be so much better off. They could take lectures from Jane Caro, for example, who called Australians "truculent turds" for voting for the Coalition. Yes, and she can keep her Australian 'honours' award too - such style, such class, such je ne sais quoi!!

Racist slurs and accusations of racism are the schtick of the Left; they should not project that convenient accusation onto social conservatives, who mind their own business and couldn't care less about such divisive drivel. Morrison was playing them at their own game with the Gladys Liu episode - much like Trump does with the American Left - and don't they descend into a tailspin!! And while they're at it they might come into our classrooms to make sure 'trannies' dressed up as prostitutes don't come into our schools, reading to very young children in the school library, confusing kids about sexuality and promulgating the idea that anybody can be anything they want, at any time - and without consequences for the younger generation they are busy proselytizing. We've already got the highest number of Ice addicts in the world in this country as it is. Draw a line in the sand; defend that line against attack and live by at least some principles. Whatever happened to that? For example, any adult could try and do something responsible and mature about this (but much easier to finger-wag about 'non-believers' of climate change!!):

https://twitter.com/WeAreTRR/status/1233303427184283648

The US Democrats don't get any of this either and that's why they and their myriad media cheerleaders (activists and partisans all) are destined to remain shouting and screaming in the background while the rest of the nation most probably has the remote control on 'mute'. I had to laugh this morning hearing Joe Biden say "no more divided America"!! You just couldn't make it up. Same here with our ideological zealots in parliament and in the media who are doing absolutely all they can to make sure our government doesn't enjoy a single day of success, making things up and doing their level best to remove Morrison - it's called 'withdrawal of loser consent'. That isn't their job, but since the media is mostly a joke now nobody takes much notice of the highly partisan SMH (clue: an economic progressive would not shackle a dying newspaper to media sinking like the stone, which is free-to air-television) and the "Guardian" - about which I'll saying nothing because they just don't get it. The ABC's (publicly funded, for all you Americans) panel of 'commentators' sat glumly on election night looking like they'd lost a thousand dollars and found a buck. The ABC is not an arm of the Australian Labor Party; it is funded by the taxpayer and is obliged to at least PRETEND to be objective. I worked there in the 1970s and am only too well aware of their, er, objectivity. I'd like to see Morrison develop the chops to advocate for subscription-only for the ABC, as Johnson has done with the BBC; both the same kind of left-leaning, government-funded, activist boondoggles.

Trump is a very strange man, absolutely, but don't expect any questions from his opponents about why the American people got him as a leader; no soul-searching or trying to recalibrate politics and political messaging. As somebody recently said about Bloomberg, "he's the only billionaire to have paid vast amounts of money only to be scalped by a fake indian"!! Having set such a high standard of behaviour for the rest of the country, the Democrats are unable to live up to that themselves. That's the price of self-righteousness.

You mentioned Kevin Rudd; one and the same man who referred to the Chinese people as "rat f*****s". Funny to be getting a lecture from him!! Scotty from marketing? As I quipped to one of my friends recently, "Come on now; what politician would want to market/sell you something, or other? Pull the other one".

I want our government to bring in economic reforms and have a much busier legislative agenda - and get rid of the HRC and other dictatorial social justice warriors who cause more harm than good. And they need to reform our Family Court as a matter of urgency. If they don't do this they'll be destined to endure minority government - at best. And I'll be lodging a protest vote, but not with Labor.

And I will defend my nation against international slander, especially by news outlets I consider deeply unworthy of any credibility.

[barney]

Sue, you mistake me if you think I belong to the Left. I agree with very many or most of your criticisms. Identity politics and cancel culture are massive problems in our society. I've written on the Corner Pub before about how dangerous, divisive and reductionist identity politics is. I see myself as a centrist, but then probably most people see themselves that way.
And we have had many differences of opinion; that doesn't upset me. We've had many areas of agreement too.
My reference to a different planet was the paranoid conspiracies peddled by the Murdoch media, which you seem to accept uncritically. I read the Australian every day, but I balance it with other media. I don't know whether you do, but I submit that you should.
Certainly can't agree that Morrison calling anyone concerned about the divided loyalties of Gladys Liu a racist was smart politics. It was squalid and unworthy and plain wrong. To question one person is not to criticise everyone of that ethnicity, as you well know. If you are happy for him to descend to those depths, that's a matter for you, but then you should stop criticising the Left for shouting "racist" or you will be a hypocrite.
As a Christian I am deeply committed to the idea that every human being is created in the image of God (including Gladys Liu), regardless of race, gender, orientation or any other subsidiary factor, even their sometimes bad behaviour. I intensely dislike, for example, the Chinese Government with its mixture of belligerence and self-pity, but I do not hate any Chinese person. We're all just people.
Re the HRC etc, the 1950s are gone, Sue, and they are not returning. We just need to get less ideologically driven people into those roles, not get rid of the roles.

[Belle]

I read a great many books and online journals, but I appreciate "The Australian" for its balance of contributors from both Left and Right. Today Janet Albrechtsen talks about mediocrity in our politics and she's nailed it, though I would argue that some of the older role models she's referenced were viewed through rose-coloured glasses. But I go further and say a mediocre people will only get mediocre politicians; they are not from Mars, after all.

I maintain Morrison was playing the Left at their own game; they call 'racism' every time somebody wants to say the slightest thing about anybody who is not white European. And I agree with him totally on this. The 1950s is dead and gone, of course, but what a pity we couldn't carry over some of the very good parts like community, national sense of purpose, the lack of grievance and vile intersectionality - products of the Left which are more suited to the USSR than a modern democracy. I don't agree with you that all people are created in the image of god as I don't follow every dictum of christianity: it's notions of family, community, personal responsibility, forgiveness and the rituals and links to history which are appealing to me. The Nazis and their slavish German surrender-monkeys are still too fresh in my mind to believe them 'in god's image'.


Re Murdoch 'conspiracy theories'; News Limited is the only remaining branch of the daily media which isn't of the Left and, secondly, I haven't read any conspiracies. You must be referring to climate change but I'll surely be accused of being a 'non-believer' (religious allusion deliberate) because I cannot be convinced that reducing ALL our 1.5% emissions will either change the world or stop our natural disasters. Perhaps you mean the ABC, but I think they've done enough damage to their own brand without needing conspiracy theories; the nice little, ego-stroking interview with Hilary Clinton (no hand questions about "the deplorables"), "Media Watch" and it's partial telling of the facts, "The Drum" and its myriad of unrepresentative minorities - all with grievances - light years from ordinary Australians; the fellow who is the new host of the 'sledging olympics' Q&A and his inglorious two-finger salute towards Sky at a recent awards ceremony. The list is long and undistinguished.

Let me quote something I read today and which is close to the end of a book I'm reading, "Ship of Fools" by Tucker Carlson. It's an enjoyable and engaging read and, though there are one or two mistakes in it, he makes a great deal of sense - drawn from a very strong perception, prescience and the scope of obvious wide reading. I find myself nodding like a mad relation while reading it and this particular paragraph magnificently conveys our modern dilemma: it follows a discussion on 'trans' people and the absolute obsession with gender identity:

"Men posing as female weight lifters isn't the biggest problem Western civilization faces, but it's an ominous symptom of deeper rot. When the people in charge retreat into fantasy, and demand that everyone else join them there, society itself becomes impervious to reality. The entire population develops the habits of fact-avoidance and lying. After a while, nobody can see a crisis or even admit that one exists" (p.201). Welcome to the modern Left. "Deeper rot". And that's why, inter alia, the US will get Trump in 2020 and his daughter Ivanka for the following term!!

[Rach3]

Now this getting serious :

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/03/worl ... e=Homepage

[Belle]

And so is this!! In fact, it's FAR more serious. So redolent of the Hitlerjugend that it won't appear in the mainstream media - if they have anything to say about it.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bbc-h ... ch-accepti

[barney]

I read a great many books and online journals, but I appreciate "The Australian" for its balance of contributors from both Left and Right. Today Janet Albrechtsen talks about mediocrity in our politics and she's nailed it, though I would argue that some of the older role models she's referenced were viewed through rose-coloured glasses. But I go further and say a mediocre people will only get mediocre politicians; they are not from Mars, after all.

I maintain Morrison was playing the Left at their own game; they call 'racism' every time somebody wants to say the slightest thing about anybody who is not white European. And I agree with him totally on this. The 1950s is dead and gone, of course, but what a pity we couldn't carry over some of the very good parts like community, national sense of purpose, the lack of grievance and vile intersectionality - products of the Left which are more suited to the USSR than a modern democracy. I don't agree with you that all people are created in the image of god as I don't follow every dictum of christianity: it's notions of family, community, personal responsibility, forgiveness and the rituals and links to history which are appealing to me. The Nazis and their slavish German surrender-monkeys are still too fresh in my mind to believe them 'in god's image'.


Re Murdoch 'conspiracy theories'; News Limited is the only remaining branch of the daily media which isn't of the Left and, secondly, I haven't read any conspiracies. You must be referring to climate change but I'll surely be accused of being a 'non-believer' (religious allusion deliberate) because I cannot be convinced that reducing ALL our 1.5% emissions will either change the world or stop our natural disasters. Perhaps you mean the ABC, but I think they've done enough damage to their own brand without needing conspiracy theories; the nice little, ego-stroking interview with Hilary Clinton (no hand questions about "the deplorables"), "Media Watch" and it's partial telling of the facts, "The Drum" and its myriad of unrepresentative minorities - all with grievances - light years from ordinary Australians; the fellow who is the new host of the 'sledging olympics' Q&A and his inglorious two-finger salute towards Sky at a recent awards ceremony. The list is long and undistinguished.

Let me quote something I read today and which is close to the end of a book I'm reading, "Ship of Fools" by Tucker Carlson. It's an enjoyable and engaging read and, though there are one or two mistakes in it, he makes a great deal of sense - drawn from a very strong perception, prescience and the scope of obvious wide reading. I find myself nodding like a mad relation while reading it and this particular paragraph magnificently conveys our modern dilemma: it follows a discussion on 'trans' people and the absolute obsession with gender identity:

"Men posing as female weight lifters isn't the biggest problem Western civilization faces, but it's an ominous symptom of deeper rot. When the people in charge retreat into fantasy, and demand that everyone else join them there, society itself becomes impervious to reality. The entire population develops the habits of fact-avoidance and lying. After a while, nobody can see a crisis or even admit that one exists" (p.201). Welcome to the modern Left. "Deeper rot". And that's why, inter alia, the US will get Trump in 2020 and his daughter Ivanka for the following term!!

I'm seriously intrigued by your claim that the Australian has columnists from the Left. I can't think of one. Who do you have in mind?
Conspiracy: Yes, climate change is one. Its constant rubbishing of the ABC is another. The Murdoch media has always vehemently opposed public broadcasting everywhere because it eats into their profits, and I sometimes wonder about the integrity of The Australian journalists who continually harp on. Yes, there is a lot of political correctness at the ABC, and that irritates me as well, but there is an awful lot of good serious coverage too, such as the Religion Report that no one else covers, certainly not The Australian (which is less hostile to religion than many of the commentators on the former Fairfax press). Their last serious religion reporter was Jill Rowbotham who left that role more than a decade ago. When was the last time you saw a positive story about a union or union leader in the Oz? I suspect not for decades. Their vengeful campaign against former head of Victoria Police Simon Overland after he justly criticised them for reporting on raids against terror suspects in Melbourne BEFORE the raids took place.
To the culture warriors on The Australian the left is anyone to the left of Ronald Reagan because they are so far right.
Re Gladys Liu, I am afraid you are simply being hypocritical. To condemn Labor (justly) for alleging people are racist when they raise legitimate concerns, but then to defend the Prime Minister for doing precisely the same thing cannot possibly be justified. That of course is a matter for you - most of us live with some level of contradiction in our views. But it should be called out for what it is. And when you say you agree with the PM totally, do you mean that anyone who expressed concern at Liu's apparently divided loyalties between Australia and Communist China was merely racist against all Chinese? Because that's what he said, and it's patently stupid.

[Belle]

Peter van Onselen identifies as of the Left, so is Graham Richardson, Nikki Gemmel and Troy Bramston. Regular columnists. Other guest contributors have been Stephen Loosley, Anthony Albanese, Mark Butler, Mark Dreyfus, Kevin Rudd - lots of them, in fact, have had an opportunity to put their point of view in the only centre right daily media in this country. Others include Graham Richardson, Warren Mundine, Gary Johns, Mark Latham; the former are regulars the latter not so much.

It always gets up the nose of people when a conservative activates a lefty tripwire by using their own language of 'racism' back against them - shutting them up. In this case it worked spectacularly well; Morrison was protecting a slim majority, just as Gillard did when she hung on to Craig Thompson. What is it "Richo" says? "Whatever it takes". He admitted on TV last week that he used to 'sports rort' himself all the time when in Hawke's government.

I'll never agree about the ABC: I worked there. Ever since Alan Ashbolt brought his 'commie' ideas into it in the 1960s it has been a lefty collective. I was abused roundly by Alan Bateman (later of "Home and Away" fame) when he found out I was a member of the Liberal Party. One day an erstwhile PM came into the office to see Humphrey (our boss) about a series of interviews and Bateman called out in the corridor at the top of his voice, "tell Sue her Liberal-loving mate has arrived". Bullies. Deadful. (Except my girlfriends; they were absolutely wonderful.) After the sacking of the Whitlam government it became very bad indeed. I found film crews gave me the cold shoulder or were downright insulting. Fortunately, I had an excellent European producer and we loved working together and laughing together; neither of us wanted to enter the political fray at the ABC. And, besides, he was a Milanese conservative. I won't even mention the sledging and abuse directed at Dr. Jordan Peterson when he appeared 2 years ago on Q&A talking about values, personal responsibility and issues of gender pay gaps.

Don't expect the ABC to ever mention the morality-sapping exercises I've alluded to here about the trojan horse of SSM and trans issues and the very real possibility of these being brought into my grandchildren's primary school - and so many others. It's fashionable so who cares what it's doing to children's heads? I do and so do my sons. Take a browse through the "Harry Hartog" bookstores and see lots of stories about 'trannies', SSM and the normalizing of these things because they're creeping into childrens' literature. Conservatives in particular are quite accepting of homosexuality, so long as it doesn’t include coercing churches or exposing children to sexual content.

[barney]

Peter van Onselen identifies as of the Left, so is Graham Richardson, Nikki Gemmel and Troy Bramston. Regular columnists. Other guest contributors have been Stephen Loosley, Anthony Albanese, Mark Butler, Mark Dreyfus, Kevin Rudd - lots of them, in fact, have had an opportunity to put their point of view in the only centre right daily media in this country. Others include Graham Richardson, Warren Mundine, Gary Johns, Mark Latham; the former are regulars the latter not so much.

It always gets up the nose of people when a conservative activates a lefty tripwire by using their own language of 'racism' back against them - shutting them up. In this case it worked spectacularly well; Morrison was protecting a slim majority, just as Gillard did when she hung on to Craig Thompson. What is it "Richo" says? "Whatever it takes". He admitted on TV last week that he used to 'sports rort' himself all the time when in Hawke's government.

I'll never agree about the ABC: I worked there. Ever since Alan Ashbolt brought his 'commie' ideas into it in the 1960s it has been a lefty collective. I was abused roundly by Alan Bateman (later of "Home and Away" fame) when he found out I was a member of the Liberal Party. One day an erstwhile PM came into the office to see Humphrey (our boss) about a series of interviews and Bateman called out in the corridor at the top of his voice, "tell Sue her Liberal-loving mate has arrived". Bullies. Deadful. (Except my girlfriends; they were absolutely wonderful.) After the sacking of the Whitlam government it became very bad indeed. I found film crews gave me the cold shoulder or were downright insulting. Fortunately, I had an excellent European producer and we loved working together and laughing together; neither of us wanted to enter the political fray at the ABC. And, besides, he was a Milanese conservative. I won't even mention the sledging and abuse directed at Dr. Jordan Peterson when he appeared 2 years ago on Q&A talking about values, personal responsibility and issues of gender pay gaps.

Don't expect the ABC to ever mention the morality-sapping exercises I've alluded to here about the trojan horse of SSM and trans issues and the very real possibility of these being brought into my grandchildren's primary school - and so many others. It's fashionable so who cares what it's doing to children's heads? I do and so do my sons. Take a browse through the "Harry Hartog" bookstores and see lots of stories about 'trannies', SSM and the normalizing of these things because they're creeping into childrens' literature. Conservatives in particular are quite accepting of homosexuality, so long as it doesn’t include coercing churches or exposing children to sexual content.

The only one of the regular columnists I'd accept as of the Left is Graham Richardson. And he is so pragmatic, so flexible in principle ("whatever it takes") that he hardly has a political ideology or any scruples and is thus an ideal stablemate for the Australian. Van Onselen might identify as Left, but only in comparison to culture warriors like Gerard Henderson and Chris Kenny. No leftist would recognise him as one of them.
Re the ABC's political correctness, I have already agreed with you. It is a problem. My point was that is not the whole ABC or even a particularly large part. Playschool, sport, the RN topical programs such as the Law Report and the Religion Report, Classic FM - none of these are implicated in any way, so far as I know. And you don't address my point about the worldwide campaign by Murdoch media against public broadcasters, from the ABC in Australia to the BBC in Britain.
But the point that really disturbs me, which I have already mentioned and you again evade, is the fact that it is hypocritical to criticise someone you don't like when they use an ugly slur like racism to shut down debate but call it smart and clever when it is someone you like. That is dishonest. The sort of people who make that a way of life are culture warriors for whom the only motive is to crush their ideological opponents, and ignore facts, truth, honesty, fairness. There are plenty of those on both sides of politics, and it is always ugly. It would distress me to think you were one of them, and I had not thought it. And I dislike being called a racist because of one concern about one Chinese who showed loyalty to the Communist Party. I said nothing at all about the other 1.5 million Chinese in Australia. For you to endorse that remark and suggest that I and millions of other Australians are racist simply because we want to protect democracy saddens me deeply. Again, it simply displays a determination to win, and bugger the facts and integrity. But, apparently, so far as you are concerned, it worked, and that is all that matters. And it didn't shut me up, any more than you are silenced when slurred. It just inclined me to vote against the government at the next election. This government is sadly short of integrity, though I do not claim the Opposition would be any better.
I've made these points several times, and you evade them, so I suspect our discussion has come to a natural end.
In conclusion, I'm sorry you had a difficult time at the ABC. It shouldn't have happened. But it doesn't justify the rest.

[Belle]

I left out Prof. George Williams from UNSW - a Labor candidate at a previous election and a regular contributor to "The Australian". His last article was 2nd March.

Murdoch doesn't need to wage a campaign against public broadcasting (is this not another conspiracy theory?) as they do it themselves so well unaided, and the people are really fed up with taxpayer funds being used to promulgate a green left agenda. We get this with media where organizations use their own funds to promote an agenda - I get that - but I draw the line at the taxpayer. I do find that bias in ABC radio too; I taught bias in schools and the use of emotive language and cultural agenda are the clues, together with the assumption that people are all on the same page. That really gets up my nose. With climate change the orthodoxy is never challenged, nor is the issue even alluded with regard to what we can realistically expect for our own climate mitigation even with a complete reduction of 1.5% global emissions. It has been just airbrushed away as though the people are so completely swept up that no further thought is necessary.

People are capable of much more nuanced thought than the ABC or mainstream media understands - or even cares about. Today the internet provides a much more varied stream of alternate opinion. I read "Quillette" - an online journal started by (an Australian) Claire Lehmann - and these are long articles written by a variety of contributors.

At a recent lunch with friends a discussion came up about rainbow flags placed on childcare centres and teachers at state schools wearing "treaty now" T-shirts. Spouse and myself were annoyed about this propaganda but the friend's wife intoned despondently, "but isn't this just fairness?", as though I would naturally agree. I replied politely, "No; they are taking away the job of parents in influencing their own children in these important matters". My own grandchildren parrot words like "racism", "sexism" and every other 'ism' during any and all conversations. Once upon a time these kinds of words were "Heil Hitler".

I like Chris Kenny but cannot stand Dr. Henderson or Andrew Bolt. Chris does his homework and the ABC slandered him by stating that he had sex with dogs. They ended up in court. It's run by a green left cohort which is largely unchallenged. In a recent poll conducted by the IPA 30% or more people said the ABC didn't reflect their values. 'Media Watch' went into over-drive trying to debunk the IPA, suggesting it was a right-wing think tank. No such credential airing when the ABC used the Australia Institute (left wing think tank) to provide data or a particular 'survey'. Selective use of material, assumption of everybody in agreement, PC culture - these are all the hallmarks of a section of society which has decided to outsource its thinking to an external organization. That way they can be all in furious agreement in the next conversation. My 60y/o friend and GP moved to Australia from Poland in 2000 and recently observed that our country is growing closer in behaviour and ideology to that nation as it was under communism!! I've been to IPA functions and they're not avaricious monsters who want to destroy Australia; on the last outing I met Gina Rinehart and the people at that event were mostly ordinary Australians who had common concerns about the way our society is going.

Apropos racism; I'm not racist, and knowing Morrison as I do I can tell you he isn't either. I re-iterate that he played the Left at its own game and I can say this quite independent of whether or not that was appropriate. This is what Donald Trump does so effectively to his adversaries; he plays their game back at them. Time will tell whether the people of America agree with you that it isn't the right thing to do. From my point of view the extreme Left has so much to answer for itself that this is going to continue.

But we are talking at cross purposes; as you say, we inhabit different planets. Perhaps our American friends are a little better acquainted with things from another point of view.

[Barry]

Forget that. Americans are right where Australians are, based on this exchange.

The two sides are so far apart in terms of the culture they want for their country, that it's hard to see the cultural civil war that's going on dying down any time soon.

We essentially want two different countries. That was not the case up until relatively recently.

But the truth is that I'd rather the disunity go on than quietly accept what the other side is trying to do to the country. (I share many of Belle's concerns)

[Belle]

Thank you; that was my purpose in developing this exchange because I don't contribute any more to the other sections of the board. I felt strongly about Australia being misrepresented in American media after the fires. Our decent and good people are being worn down to the bone by accusations of racism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia and the panoply of ills. The Australians I know are warm, fun-loving, generous and tolerant.

This following article is yet another grim reminder of what's going on and which supports what my Polish medical doctor friend has said and I don't think it's a consequence of personal paranoia:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/03/0 ... e-academy/

And, of course, the election of Trump is a political first for America. But what drove the people to do it, what motivates desperate people who have zero job prospects and who are being lied to about 'gender pay gaps' when the biggest suicide cohort in the USA and Australia is MEN. Their jobs are the very ones being threatened/destroyed by robots, outsourcing of industry to cheap foreign labour and they are not marriageable when living like this!! It was Prof. Jordan Peterson who 3 years ago suggested that driver-less cars would have a huge impact on American white males, since their representation in those types of jobs is so high. What was Hillary banging on about? "Little girls knowing they can be President".

I'm going to repeat myself; in my nearly 7 decades on this planet I have never heard an American leader or aspiring leader EVER refer to the nation as "deplorables". That was simply the most vile comment I think I've ever heard and it just didn't mesh with the image I have of Americans as a generous, friendly and can-do nation - to whom I am very sympathetic!! Recently on (yet another) war documentary I saw Berlin liberated from the Americans (with the Ruskies in the opposite corner) and the words from a 14y/o boy describing them as "fresh-faced, clean and friendly" and how one gave chocolate to him when he was starving. I looked over towards spouse and said, "this is, of course, one and the same deplorables".

Enough from me.

[lennygoran]

Belle you're way off on Trump-you have a lying loudmouth mafia corrupt racist you're trying to defend--think mussolini. Len

[Belle]

Belle you're way off on Trump-you have a lying loudmouth mafia corrupt racist you're trying to defend--think mussolini. Len

I don't believe I commented on his character or was 'defending' him, just tried to explain reasons why you have such a President.

And Barney correctly commented on 'integrity' in government; yes, that's always in short supply. It usually doesn't take long for them to show their stripes, no matter who is elected.

Cheerio.

[lennygoran]

Belle no one comes close to Trump when it comes to lies and corruption-right now we're down here in philly for the great flower show-when I get home and have the computer Instead of this darn tablet I'll have to check out how much you've defended Trump-I sure hope you haven't-he's absolutely the worst ever-what is it--16000 lies. You can't possibly accept his reason for not producing his income tax. Len

[Rach3]

The rest of the World does have problems, too.Hope Australia can reverse these trends as I'd like to visit some day. I do hope the vineyards are still intact:


https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/05/australi ... index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/great-barr ... 019-08-30/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/04/world/au ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/ulur ... index.html

[barney]

Sue you wrote: "Apropos racism; I'm not racist, and knowing Morrison as I do I can tell you he isn't either. I re-iterate that he played the Left at its own game and I can say this quite independent of whether or not that was appropriate. This is what Donald Trump does so effectively to his adversaries; he plays their game back at them. Time will tell whether the people of America agree with you that it isn't the right thing to do. From my point of view the extreme Left has so much to answer for itself that this is going to continue. But we are talking at cross purposes; as you say, we inhabit different planets. Perhaps our American friends are a little better acquainted with things from another point of view."
And:
"I felt strongly about Australia being misrepresented in American media after the fires. Our decent and good people are being worn down to the bone by accusations of racism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia and the panoply of ills."

Sue, I'm astounded at you peddling this blatant hypocrisy. You're tired of accusations of racism, you say, yet you applaud with delight when your Prime Minister smears all Australians with accusations that we are racist. He's smart and clever and right, according to you, outmanoeuvring his rivals. Well, that's what the Left is trying to do, and you (rightly) condemn that. I'm pretty sure most people can see that for what it is.

And another slippery move in the quote above. I never accused you of being a racist; never thought it. I never accused the PM of being a racist. What I have done is accused you of being a culture warrior, interested only in victory and not truth or fairness, because you criticise ugly behaviour by those you dislike but applaud and celebrate precisely the same ugly behaviour by those you like. I've made this point several times, and all you reply is that the PM is smart to play the Left at their own game. You persistently avoid the issue.

What you apparently can't see, and what is integral to this debate, is that is a moral issue before it is a political one. And when one places politics over morals, as you clearly do and the PM clearly does despite constantly highlighting his Christianity, then I fear that the price is indeed integrity.

[barney]

The rest of the World does have problems, too.Hope Australia can reverse these trends as I'd like to visit some day. I do hope the vineyards are still intact:


https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/05/australi ... index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/great-barr ... 019-08-30/
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/04/world/au ... index.html
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/ulur ... index.html

Rach3, you're not making me feel more cheeful!
Let me assure you, Australia is still a great place to visit. The Great Barrier Reef is magnificent, so come now while that's still the case. Some sections are not, of course.
When you get to Melbourne, the world capital of civilisation (yes, I just made that up), we'll have dinner.

[barney]

Forget that. Americans are right where Australians are, based on this exchange.

The two sides are so far apart in terms of the culture they want for their country, that it's hard to see the cultural civil war that's going on dying down any time soon.

We essentially want two different countries. That was not the case up until relatively recently.

But the truth is that I'd rather the disunity go on than quietly accept what the other side is trying to do to the country. (I share many of Belle's concerns)

Yes, Barry, so do I share many of the concerns. She is often an acute observer.

[Rach3]

When you get to Melbourne, the world capital of civilisation (yes, I just made that up), we'll have dinner.

Good to hear . I’ll buy.

[barney]

That's very generous. In that case I recommend Vue de Monde, at only $310 a head for the tasting menu, plus $165 for wine...

https://vuedemonde.com.au/eat

[Rach3]

That's very generous. In that case I recommend Vue de Monde, at only $310 a head for the tasting menu, plus $165 for wine...
https://vuedemonde.com.au/eat

No problem, a mere trifle after the air fare ! And,I've been to Chicago's Alinea (Michelin 3 star ), ca.2014, dinner for 4 ,with wine pairings, tax,tip,approx. US $2200.( My son paid.)

https://www.alinearestaurant.com (Scroll down )

[jserraglio]

The job-stealing immigrant is chimerical: that is the consensus view among economists today, including two of last year's Econ Nobel laureates, Abhijit Banerjee and Esther Duflo, who have argued as much in their Good Economics for Hard Times.

A 2015 NY Times Magazine article by Adam Davidson, a notable NPR business/economics journalist, concisely exposes as faulty the thinking that lies behind the myth of the job-stealing foreign worker.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/maga ... grant.html