Can you tell Mozart from Salieri?

Simkin
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Can you tell Mozart from Salieri?

Post by Simkin » Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:33 pm

Can you tell music by Mozart from that by Salieri?

Take this quiz to find out: Mozart or Salieri?

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Post by Gary » Wed Sep 14, 2005 10:05 pm

Well, I got a 90! :D

I won't mention the one I missed...too embarrassing. :oops:
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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:16 pm

I got 90% too. I mistook one of the arias for an early Mozart.

I recognized all the Mozart works, so it really wasn't a fair result - I didn't do it on the basis of style alone. I will say this - Salieri was a much better composer than his post-Amadeus rep would lead you to believe. I mean, there were a lot of Mozart's early piano concerti that sounded like Paisiello.
Last edited by Corlyss_D on Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Simkin » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:27 pm

Gary wrote:I won't mention the one I missed...too embarrassing.
Why is it embarrasing?

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Post by Gary » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:43 pm

Why is it embarrasing?
Because it's just the opposite of:
I mistook one of the arias for...Mozart.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:06 am

Gary wrote:
Why is it embarrasing?
Because it's just the opposite of:
I mistook one of the arias for...Mozart.
I'll bet I know which one it was too. The Parto, Parto from Tito? You could be forgiven that miss - it's still not that widely known a Mozart opera. It just happens to have been my favorite Mozart opera for many years. I even have my own dog-earred marked up copy of the Barenreiter NMA edition of the full orchestral score.
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Post by Gary » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:13 am

I'll bet I know which one it was too. The Parto, Parto from Tito?
Nope, I actually got that one right. Now, do you see how shameful it is? :wink:
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Post by Corlyss_D » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:18 am

Gary wrote:
I'll bet I know which one it was too. The Parto, Parto from Tito?
Nope, I actually got that one right. Now, do you see how shameful it is? :wink:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, you're absolutely right! You should be ashamed of yourself!!!! :D
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Post by Gary » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:24 am

:D
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Post by Simkin » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:30 am

You folks are making jokes. But did it occur to you that perhaps Mozart is a joke?

The average score on this quiz is 64%. This suggests that people can't appreciate his music when his trademark name is detached from it.

dzalman

Post by dzalman » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:57 am

Simkin wrote:You folks are making jokes. But did it occur to you that perhaps Mozart is a joke?

The average score on this quiz is 64%. This suggests that people can't appreciate his music when his trademark name is detached from it.
No, what it suggests is that the person who constructed the test hasn't the foggiest notion of what it is that separates Mozart's music not only from the music of his contemporaries, but from the music of all composers of whatever era, and missed entirely the particular genius of that music. The snippets are nonsense.

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Post by Simkin » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:39 pm

dzalman wrote:No, what it suggests is that the person who constructed the test hasn't the foggiest notion of what it is that separates Mozart's music not only from the music of his contemporaries, but from the music of all composers of whatever era, and missed entirely the particular genius of that music. The snippets are nonsense.
Do you feel quite sure of that?

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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:53 pm

Simkin wrote:You folks are making jokes. But did it occur to you that perhaps Mozart is a joke?

The average score on this quiz is 64%. This suggests that people can't appreciate his music when his trademark name is detached from it.
It suggests that people in general have insufficient connoisseurship, a condition of which I accuse myself all the time, only I happen to be ignorant and negligent only at the 90% level with respect to this "test." Nothing about my own non-memorization of repertory leads me to believe that any of the masters is in fact overrated or judged purely on the commerce of his name.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Simkin » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:57 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Simkin wrote:You folks are making jokes. But did it occur to you that perhaps Mozart is a joke?

The average score on this quiz is 64%. This suggests that people can't appreciate his music when his trademark name is detached from it.
It suggests that people in general have insufficient connoisseurship, a condition of which I accuse myself all the time, only I happen to be ignorant and negligent only at the 90% level with respect to this "test." Nothing about my own non-memorization of repertory leads me to believe that any of the masters is in fact overrated or judged purely on the commerce of his name.
Johannes Passion opens as:
"Herr, unser Herrcher, dessen Ruhm in allen Landen herrlich ist!"
At a later moment it says:
"Auch der groessten Niedrigkeit, verherrlicht vorden bist",
but the first argument why we should worship Jesus is "dessen Ruhm in allen Landen herrlich ist!"
The latter quote can be applied to Mozart. There is more similarity between to personas as both according to legends were murdered becaus of envy. Salieri was afraid that Mozart can take his place as a leading composer, while Caifas thought that Jesus theatens his theological authority.

Nowadays people don't believe in gospels the same way they did in times of Bach. But they do believe that Mozart could walk on water. Does it occur to you that this might be not exactly the case?

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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:11 pm

Simkin wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Simkin wrote:You folks are making jokes. But did it occur to you that perhaps Mozart is a joke?

The average score on this quiz is 64%. This suggests that people can't appreciate his music when his trademark name is detached from it.
It suggests that people in general have insufficient connoisseurship, a condition of which I accuse myself all the time, only I happen to be ignorant and negligent only at the 90% level with respect to this "test." Nothing about my own non-memorization of repertory leads me to believe that any of the masters is in fact overrated or judged purely on the commerce of his name.
Johannes Passion opens as:
"Herr, unser Herrcher, dessen Ruhm in allen Landen herrlich ist!"
At a later moment it says:
"Auch der groessten Niedrigkeit, verherrlicht vorden bist",
but the first argument why we should worship Jesus is "dessen Ruhm in allen Landen herrlich ist!"
The latter quote can be applied to Mozart. There is more similarity between to personas as both according to legends were murdered becaus of envy. Salieri was afraid that Mozart can take his place as a leading composer, while Caifas thought that Jesus theatens his theological authority.

Nowadays people don't believe in gospels the same way they did in times of Bach. But they do believe that Mozart could walk on water. Does it occur to you that this might be not exactly the case?
First, I stronly suggest that you don't quote texts from Bach for frivolous reasons while I am a poster here. I assure you, I can run rings around you. In the first place, there is nothing from the texts of Bach's German language choral works that is ever worth quoting, and in the second place, even if that were not true, you have not made an appropriate citation.

Mozart was a giant, a demigod in fact. Salieri was a pleasant composer who was in comparison a cipher. Not all your piety nor wit shall cancel that fact, nor all your tears reinvent the wheel of it.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

dzalman

Post by dzalman » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:18 pm

Simkin wrote:
dzalman wrote:No, what it suggests is that the person who constructed the test hasn't the foggiest notion of what it is that separates Mozart's music not only from the music of his contemporaries, but from the music of all composers of whatever era, and missed entirely the particular genius of that music. The snippets are nonsense.
Do you feel quite sure of that?
Oh, absolutely positive.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:26 pm

Simkin wrote:You folks are making jokes. But did it occur to you that perhaps Mozart is a joke?

The average score on this quiz is 64%. This suggests that people can't appreciate his music when his trademark name is detached from it.
'Appreciating' and 'knowledge of' are two different concepts. You didn't ask if quiz takers could appreciate the music. You asked if they could distinguish it from Salieri's.

I'm curious what you were trying to prove if anything.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:29 pm

Simkin wrote:Nowadays people don't believe in gospels the same way they did in times of Bach. But they do believe that Mozart could walk on water. Does it occur to you that this might be not exactly the case?
A sophomoric fallacy, don't you think? The concepts are hardly equal.
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Post by Simkin » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:21 pm

dzalman wrote:
Simkin wrote: Do you feel quite sure of that?
Oh, absolutely positive.
"then it must be an illusion. The things one feels absolutely certain about are never true." (Oscar Wilde)

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Post by Gary » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:49 pm

then it must be an illusion

Then it must be…since I may have inadvertently skewed the results.
I actually had to retake the quiz just to find out what opera it was that I didn't get right. However, I did remember what number the question was, so, naturally, I just clicked the radio button (answer) to that one question (and maybe a few others at random) and then the "submit" button.

So you may want to throw out the results of that particular quiz that is, if you can find them.

BTW, Simkin, just how many people took the quiz?
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Post by Simkin » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:36 pm

Gary wrote:
then it must be an illusion
Then it must be…since I may have inadvertently skewed the results.
I actually had to retake the quiz just to find out what opera it was that I didn't get right. However, I did remember what number the question was, so, naturally, I just clicked the radio button (answer) to that one question (and maybe a few others at random) and then the "submit" button.

So you may want to throw out the results of that particular quiz that is, if you can find them.

BTW, Simkin, just how many people took the quiz?
The 64% average score was based on 76 people who answered all of the questions (those who skipped even one question were not included in the analysis).

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Post by Gary » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:47 pm

The 64% average score was based on 76 people who answered all of the questions (those who skipped even one question were not included in the analysis).
Okay, let me ask you this. Are you able to guesstimate how many of the visitors that came to your site were from here? I'm assuming there was a "surge" after you posted the link in this forum.
Last edited by Gary on Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:51 pm

Gary wrote:
The 64% average score was based on 76 people who answered all of the questions (those who skipped even one question were not included in the analysis).
Okay, let me ask you this. Are you able to guesstimate how many of the visitors that came to your site were from here; I'm assuming there was a "surge" after you posted the link in this forum.
This came up on the other board (the Good Music Guide) before it came up here. Over there, the exchange was without rancor, and there was no suggestion that someone had an agenda.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Gary » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:58 pm

This came up on the other board (the Good Music Guide) before it came up here. Over there, the exchange was without rancor, and no suggestion that someone had an agenda.
If I sound rancorous, then I apologize. I am genuinely interested in the point that Simkin is attempting to prove. Hence, I'd like to see more data.
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:03 am

Gary wrote:
This came up on the other board (the Good Music Guide) before it came up here. Over there, the exchange was without rancor, and no suggestion that someone had an agenda.
If I sound rancorous, then I apologize. I am genuinely interested in the point Simkin is attempting to prove. Hence, I'd like to see more data.
Gary, I was not pointing the finger at you, but at the initiator of the thread, who can only do a half-assed job of typing Bach librettos out of a CD booklet. I wouldn't want to find out, ironically, that he initiated the topic on the other site too under another name, which is entirely possible.

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Post by Gary » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:05 am

Oh, okay. No problem then. :)
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:25 am

Problem solved! Simkin, according to his posts on the other board, is a Ph.D. in physics who happened to stumble on the already established Mozart v Salieri thread. This verifies the well-known fact that Einstein knew nothing of Bach and Mozart.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Gary » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:43 am

Hey JBuck,

You found that out from the Good Music Guide?
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Post by Simkin » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:44 am

jbuck919 wrote: First, I stronly suggest that you don't quote texts from Bach for frivolous reasons while I am a poster here. I assure you, I can run rings around you. In the first place, there is nothing from the texts of Bach's German language choral works that is ever worth quoting, and in the second place, even if that were not true, you have not made an appropriate citation.

Mozart was a giant, a demigod in fact. Salieri was a pleasant composer who was in comparison a cipher. Not all your piety nor wit shall cancel that fact, nor all your tears reinvent the wheel of it.
How do you know what is worth quoting?
These articles expain how people actually decide what to quote:

http://www.netzeitung.de/servlets/page? ... tem=240620

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/13/13777/1.html

I do not dispute that Mozart was a giant, just the value of his height. Legends populated the world with giants as high as a mountain. In real life giants also exist. The tallest of them, Robert Pershing Wadlow, was 8 ft 11 in (272 cm) high. He was about 50% higher than an average person.

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Post by Gary » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:51 am

Care to translate those articles into English, anyone? :)
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:54 am

Simkin wrote:
jbuck919 wrote: First, I stronly suggest that you don't quote texts from Bach for frivolous reasons while I am a poster here. I assure you, I can run rings around you. In the first place, there is nothing from the texts of Bach's German language choral works that is ever worth quoting, and in the second place, even if that were not true, you have not made an appropriate citation.

Mozart was a giant, a demigod in fact. Salieri was a pleasant composer who was in comparison a cipher. Not all your piety nor wit shall cancel that fact, nor all your tears reinvent the wheel of it.
How do you know what is worth quoting?
These articles expain how people actually decide what to quote:

http://www.netzeitung.de/servlets/page? ... tem=240620

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/13/13777/1.html

I do not dispute that Mozart was a giant, just the value of his height. Legends populated the world with giants as high as a mountain. In real life giants also exist. The tallest of them, Robert Pershing Wadlow, was 8 ft 11 in (272 cm) high. He was about 50% higher than an average person.
You are being silly, and arbitrary. The accomplishment of the greatest artists, and of course here I mean composers, is so beyond the ken and imagination of even the most educated and gifted normal person that they seem to be hardly beings of a mortal order. In his wildest dreams, Salieri could not have imagined that he had composed Don Giovanni, except maybe after it had already been composed. We are stuck with this interesting discrepancy. Thank God.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:00 am

Gary wrote:Care to translate those articles into English, anyone? :)
Without pretending that I am anything like a native speaker, Simkin is pretending that he knows German well, when in fact his original quotation from the opening chorus of the St. John Passion has elementary errors that I did not bother to point out, because I did not want to address it at that level.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Simkin » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:23 am

Gary wrote:Care to translate those articles into English, anyone? :)
This page contains the links to the original research articles and popularizations in many languages, including English:

http://www.ee.ucla.edu/~simkin/read_bef ... _cite.html

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:29 am

Simkin wrote:
Gary wrote:Care to translate those articles into English, anyone? :)
This page contains the links to the original research articles and popularizations in many languages, including English:

http://www.ee.ucla.edu/~simkin/read_bef ... _cite.html
Before anyone else bothers, I have reported this person to the admin as a certifiable lunatic. We don't get them very often, but boy when we get them.........

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Gary » Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:34 am

Simkin,

I think I know what you are trying to get at. You are saying that great composers, artists, physicists, and what have you, do not always produce works worthy of their fame--you're hinting they may even create a few duds.

I grant all that. No one turns out one masterpiece after another. But in the end, the true measure of one's greatness is determined by his/her greatest masterpiece(s)/achievement(s). If Stravinsky had written just the Rite, he would still stand alongside the other giants.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Sep 17, 2005 2:02 pm

jbuck919 wrote: You are being silly, and arbitrary.
I was tempted to quote Mark Simon's signature, Simkin's point being so obscure. He's certainly terse, which I think has contributed to his somewhat gruff treatment here. On the other hand, maybe we're just less tolerant of fools than GMG. Not that I'm calling Simkin a fool. It's just not obvious whether he's being sophomoric and cute, or whether there's a serious point behind his comments.
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Post by Gary » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:06 pm

Not that I'm calling Simkin a fool.
Maybe just misguided?
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Post by Simkin » Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:29 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Simkin is pretending that he knows German well, when in fact his original quotation from the opening chorus of the St. John Passion has elementary errors that I did not bother to point out, because I did not want to address it at that level.
jbuck919 wrote: initiator of the thread, who can only do a half-assed job of typing Bach librettos out of a CD booklet.
So which one is that: "typing out of CD booklet" or "has elementary errors"?
Corlyss_D wrote:maybe we're just less tolerant of fools
It is more difficult to tell a fool from an intelligent person than you might think. See:
http://reverent.org/stupid_or_clever.html
Gary wrote: You are saying that great composers, artists, physicists, and what have you, do not always produce works worthy of their fame--you're hinting they may even create a few duds.
Actually, all but one of the Mozart's works used in the quiz are considered "great".

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Post by Simkin » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:26 pm

jbuck919 wrote: the initiator of the thread, who can only do a half-assed job of typing Bach librettos out of a CD booklet. I wouldn't want to find out, ironically, that he initiated the topic on the other site too under another name, which is entirely possible.
Just during this week he posted in five differwent forums under five different names:

As "amcorrea" in
http://outofthewoodsnow.blogspot.com/

As "Judge Dave" in
http://www.n1nj4.com/viewtopic.php?t=5724

As "Brother William" in
http://forum.atimes.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3691

As "donjuan" in
http://www.bh2000.net/bbs/musicbbs/

As ט_כ in
http://www.ynet.co.il/home/0,7340,L-1721-5876,00.html

But wait: he does know some languages!

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Post by Gary » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:07 pm

Actually, all but one of the Mozart's works used in the quiz are considered "great".
Do you consider them great?
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Post by Simkin » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:39 pm

Gary wrote:
Actually, all but one of the Mozart's works used in the quiz are considered "great".
Do you consider them great?
This is the consensus opinion of musical critics.
I think that those works are good. I can't compose anything like that.
In my abstract art quiz I could beat grand masters with my own drawings. However, with Mozart I needed the help of Salieri.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:40 pm

Simkin wrote: Just during this week he posted in five differwent forums under five different names:
Okay, this is getting bizarre. Are you not the initiator of the thread?

Enjoyed your art quizzes - I got all but a couple right.
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Post by Gary » Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:44 pm

This is the consensus opinion of musical critics.
I think that those works are good. I can't compose anything like that.
In my abstract art quiz I could beat grand masters with my own drawings. However, with Mozart I needed the help of Salieri.

Perhaps rather than demoting Mozart's status, you ought to raise that of Salieri's.

For me Mozart's place in the pantheon of composers is assured. Unlike many in this forum, I couldn't say that I recognized every snippet by Mozart that was on your quiz, as unforgivable as that may be. Yet relying on style alone I was still able to do quite well. This goes to show that M's music is quite distinguishable.

Those who did poorly on your quiz are either casual listeners or mountebanks, whose results are irrelevant.
Okay, this is getting bizarre.
Quite (if I may use the word thrice in this post).
Last edited by Gary on Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:50 pm

Gary wrote:Perhaps rather than demoting Mozart's status, you ought to raise that of Salieri's. .
I would be in favor of that. I thought the music was quite charming, in fact I thought it was much more interesting than Haydn's operatic attempts. I'd like to hear more.
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trazom
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Mozart vs. Salieri

Post by trazom » Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:33 am

Hi:

First of all after browsing these boards for a long time, I decided to register and participate.

That quiz was tricky and I also got 90%.

What fooled me was the Salieri Piano Concerto.

Towards the end of the sound bite was a melody I recognized so I thought it had to be by Mozart.

Thinking back to it later, I realised that melody originated with Haydn (his symphony No.25 I think).

So Salieri obviously borrowed a melody from Haydn and that had me fooled.

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Post by Simkin » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:56 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Gary wrote:Perhaps rather than demoting Mozart's status, you ought to raise that of Salieri's. .
I would be in favor of that. I thought the music was quite charming, in fact I thought it was much more interesting than Haydn's operatic attempts. I'd like to hear more.
If you go back to the quiz results page -- you can purchase CD's with the music by the maligned master.

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Re: Mozart vs. Salieri

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:03 pm

trazom wrote:Hi:

First of all after browsing these boards for a long time, I decided to register and participate.

That quiz was tricky and I also got 90%.

What fooled me was the Salieri Piano Concerto.

Towards the end of the sound bite was a melody I recognized so I thought it had to be by Mozart.

Thinking back to it later, I realised that melody originated with Haydn (his symphony No.25 I think).

So Salieri obviously borrowed a melody from Haydn and that had me fooled.
Welcome, and the quality of your first post just confirms all the head-scratching I have been doing about lurkers (a post has two replies but 87 reads). I think it would be great if more of them joined us. It never occurred to me when I started coming here just to sit back and watch (fools rush in where angels fear to tread). I was so starved for the intelligent company of fellow classical music lovers that I was perfectly willing to make myself appear an idiot for about the first six months, which I did, and you have not.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Mozart vs. Salieri

Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:38 pm

trazom wrote: Towards the end of the sound bite was a melody I recognized so I thought it had to be by Mozart.

Thinking back to it later, I realised that melody originated with Haydn (his symphony No.25 I think).

So Salieri obviously borrowed a melody from Haydn and that had me fooled.
Hey, don't give up on the idea that Mozart might have stolen it with pride too. There was a lot of that going on in the 18th Century . . . :D
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Post by Gary » Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:56 pm

Hi:

First of all after browsing these boards for a long time, I decided to register and participate.
Welcome, Trazom! Hey, better late than never, right?

was perfectly willing to make myself appear an idiot
Then there are real idiots like me perfectly willing to be seen as such. :)
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

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Post by trazom » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:51 pm

jbuck919 and Gary:

Thanks for the welcome messages.

Corlyss:

Yes, Mozart could have borrowed a melody too but the Concerto was by Salieri and the melody I recognized was by early Haydn. So in this case, the borrower was Salieri.

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