Can you tell famous musician from unknown?

Simkin
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Can you tell famous musician from unknown?

Post by Simkin » Fri Oct 07, 2005 10:04 pm

Can you tell performance by a famous musician from that by an unknown one?

Take this quiz to find out: Famous or unknown musician?

Holden Fourth
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Post by Holden Fourth » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:03 pm

6 out of 6 - too easy!

Simkin
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Post by Simkin » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:15 pm

Holden Fourth wrote:6 out of 6 - too easy!
I just looked at the scores and out of 18 people who took the quiz so far no one scored 6 out of 6 correct.

Gary
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Post by Gary » Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:42 pm

Got a 50% this time. So, I'll cheerfully apply the remark I made in the Mozart thread on myself that, in this case, I am a mountebank whose results are irrelevant. :D
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:17 am

I had a lot of trouble with the site. First the clips had hiccups at the beginning, then I couldn't get WMP to work - damn Nero thinks it's my default player and then it would seize up - then the page kept timing out. Guess I'll have to sit this one out.
Corlyss
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Simkin
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Post by Simkin » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:56 am

Gary wrote:Got a 50% this time. So, I'll cheerfully apply the remark I made in the Mozart thread on myself that, in this case, I am a mountebank whose results are irrelevant. :D
And whose result would be relevant? Of President Bush?

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Post by Gary » Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:31 am

Simkin wrote:And whose result would be relevant? Of President Bush?
The objective of all your tests is to verify the merit of a person's greatness or fame, which you attempt to accomplish by testing our judgment of that particular person's skill/attribute (which made him/her famous) in question. As I see it, all you need is one person who can ace the test. So long as such an expert exists, what does it matter if someone like me didn't pass it?

Why do I feel this will again turn into a lengthy argument? :roll:
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

Gregg Deering
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Post by Gregg Deering » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:53 pm

Perfect score, for what it's worth. The non famous was clumsier, but in their favor there was some voicings that I appreciated. Still it seemed all about the flow, so the answers seemed easy enough. I think the Verdi was the only piece I did not know

Gregg

Holden Fourth
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Post by Holden Fourth » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:14 pm

Simkin wrote:
Holden Fourth wrote:6 out of 6 - too easy!
I just looked at the scores and out of 18 people who took the quiz so far no one scored 6 out of 6 correct.
Well - I did! Maybe the scoring system works just as well as some of the links!

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Post by Simkin » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:51 pm

Holden Fourth wrote:
Simkin wrote:
Holden Fourth wrote:6 out of 6 - too easy!
I just looked at the scores and out of 18 people who took the quiz so far no one scored 6 out of 6 correct.
Well - I did! Maybe the scoring system works just as well as some of the links!
Really? I could identify Gary and Gregg:
dsl.hstntx.swbell.net 50% (hstntx = Houston, Texas)
nyc.res.rr.com 100% (nyc = New York City)
Who is your internet provider?
Corlyss_D wrote:I had a lot of trouble with the site. First the clips had hiccups at the beginning, then I couldn't get WMP to work - damn Nero thinks it's my default player and then it would seize up - then the page kept timing out. Guess I'll have to sit this one out.
If you selected clips in wma format everything should be the same as with the previous quiz, which you were able to take.

What type of internet connection do you have?

Simkin
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Post by Simkin » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:31 pm

Gary wrote:The objective of all your tests is to verify the merit of a person's greatness or fame, which you attempt to accomplish by testing our judgment of that particular person's skill/attribute (which made him/her famous) in question. As I see it, all you need is one person who can ace the test. So long as such an expert exists, what does it matter if someone like me didn't pass it?
The probability to get 6 out of 6 right by random guessing is 1 in 64. This means that out of 64 people one shall pass as an expert.

If you can't judge the music itself how can you determine who is an expert?

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:59 pm

Simkin wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:I had a lot of trouble with the site. First the clips had hiccups at the beginning, then I couldn't get WMP to work - damn Nero thinks it's my default player and then it would seize up - then the page kept timing out. Guess I'll have to sit this one out.
If you selected clips in wma format everything should be the same as with the previous quiz, which you were able to take.

What type of internet connection do you have?
Direcway satellite highspeed. Aslo since your last quiz I've installed this Nero program. It seems to think it's in charge of all my media operations on the computer.
Last edited by Corlyss_D on Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gary
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Post by Gary » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:07 pm

Simkin wrote:The probability to get 6 out of 6 right by random guessing is 1 in 64. This means that out of 64 people one shall pass as an
expert.
I believe Holden Fourth. So that's 2 out of 64.

Simkin wrote:
If you can't judge the music itself how can you determine who is an expert?
I don't have to be an expert. The test results judge for me.
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

Jennifer Grucza
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Post by Jennifer Grucza » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:52 pm

I got 50%. But it seems kind of a weird quiz to me. You can't tell if someone is famous by the way they play - there are plenty of wonderful musicians who aren't famous, and not all famous musicians are the best...
<a href="http://jennifergrucza.com">Jennifer</a>
<a href="http://perfectfifths.com">perfectfifths.com</a>

matti
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Post by matti » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:29 pm

4/6. I thought both of the Moonlight beginnings pretty awful, but Bulva was just a tiny bit better is spite of the terribly reverberant recording - he at least tried to go forward. Horowitz I did not understand at all. And next time I'm in Zagreb, I might go to a symphony concert. :)

erinmr
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Post by erinmr » Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:32 pm

Jennifer Grucza wrote:You can't tell if someone is famous by the way they play - there are plenty of wonderful musicians who aren't famous, and not all famous musicians are the best...
I agree. I wonder if sometimes people are famous becuase of the Label pushing them for whatever reason...

Anyway, I got 50%. I found the ones with orchestra were easier to detect. Interesting little quiz, though.

~Erin

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Post by Gary » Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

Matti wrote:4/6. I thought both of the Moonlight beginnings pretty awful, but Bulva was just a tiny bit better is spite of the terribly reverberant recording - he at least tried to go forward. Horowitz I did not understand at all. And next time I'm in Zagreb, I might go to a symphony concert.
Jennifer Grucza wrote:I got 50%. But it seems kind of a weird quiz to me. You can't tell if someone is famous by the way they play - there are plenty of wonderful musicians who aren't famous, and not all famous musicians are the best...
erinmr wrote:I agree. I wonder if sometimes people are famous becuase of the Label pushing them for whatever reason...


Your remarks will only encourage Simkin. Don't fall into his trap! From past experience...he will probably say something like "Well, the excerpts by famous musicians were culled from critically acclaimed recordings. So how could you not discern their quality?"

Erinmr's point is valid, but Simkin will use the comment to denounce all recordings by famous musicians.

He only accepts statistical data. Since I believe, heretofore, at least two people got perfect scores, then that beats pure chance of 1 out of 64.

This is not so much about the true validity of the test as it is about the validity of the test as Simkin sees it.
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

Gary
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Post by Gary » Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:25 pm

To be fair to Simkin, I admit these little quizzes are fun to take. At the very least, they do make us reexamine our views and beliefs. Although I feel Simkin's own view is a bit extreme.

So, Simkin, I would like to propose an idea for a new quiz. This will probably take a bit of work on your part. Construct a test that mixes early works by famous composers with mature works by not-so-famous composers.
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

CharmNewton
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Post by CharmNewton » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:57 pm

Since I scored in at 33%, I 'll have to pay more attention to these fine, not-so-famous musicians. :)

John

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Post by Simkin » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:02 am

Gary wrote:Simkin's own view is a bit extreme.
"I'm a middle of the road moderate and the rest of you are crazy." (Ann Coulter)

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Post by Gary » Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:29 am

Well, if you're so sane, Simkin, why not share your philosophy with us? I'm perfectly willing to listen. Believe it or not, I'm probably your biggest supporter.
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

hcday
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quiz results

Post by hcday » Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:30 pm

matti wrote:4/6. I thought both of the Moonlight beginnings pretty awful, but Bulva was just a tiny bit better is spite of the terribly reverberant recording - he at least tried to go forward. Horowitz I did not understand at all. And next time I'm in Zagreb, I might go to a symphony concert. :)
I have to admit I enjoy these blind quizzes! But as I answered I was also wondering at the thrust behind it. So much of success these days depends on the artist's looks - even in classical music - and on networks of contacts, that there are fantastic musicians who are not the least famous.

So... how to answer the questions? Really, there's no way to know what "sounds" famous or not, so I just judged on musicality and the answers were mostly pretty obvious. The "wrong" Beethoven D-minor is so metronomic it sounds like it is being played by a computer; the "wrong" Rach cadenza is curiously underpowered and the real one comes as a sudden injection of charisma; the Horowitz moonlight is masterly compared to the other. Where V.H. scores is that (a) he feels a clear 2/2 pulse rather than wobbling between that and 4/4, and (b) his singing tone in projecting the melody and keeping the triplets subordinate when the dotted-rhythm melody starts.

The one I had to listen to twice (and still got wrong) was the Verdi, and that's my fault for try to second guess the quizz!!! The one I selected blasts its out-of-tune "E"s at us and then is either laboured or stately depending on how charitable one wants to be. I figured that this was such an obvious "unknown" that it must have been thrown in as a trick question - foolish me!

best to all,
Henry
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~~~~~~~

GK
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Post by GK » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:34 pm

Simkin--Since you have this talent why not mesh this thread with an earlier thread and compare violin excerpts by Anne-Sophie Mutter who sometimes gets 30,000 pounds for a concert with those of lesser known fiddlers who get a fraction of that amount.

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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:06 am

I only scored 2/6. I was listening with very low fidelity (the built-in speakers on my computer at work), but I probably would have messed up anyway. I've never been a "great performances" jock or a big-time CD collector in the first place.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Simkin » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:23 pm

CharmNewton wrote:Since I scored in at 33%, I 'll have to pay more attention to these fine, not-so-famous musicians. :)

John
You can buy recordings of unknown musicians, which were used in the quiz, from this webpage:

http://reverent.org/unknown_musician_feedback.html

Simkin
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Re: quiz results

Post by Simkin » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:41 pm

hcday wrote:
matti wrote:4/6. I thought both of the Moonlight beginnings pretty awful, but Bulva was just a tiny bit better is spite of the terribly reverberant recording - he at least tried to go forward. Horowitz I did not understand at all. And next time I'm in Zagreb, I might go to a symphony concert. :)
I have to admit I enjoy these blind quizzes! But as I answered I was also wondering at the thrust behind it. So much of success these days depends on the artist's looks - even in classical music - and on networks of contacts, that there are fantastic musicians who are not the least famous.

So... how to answer the questions? Really, there's no way to know what "sounds" famous or not, so I just judged on musicality and the answers were mostly pretty obvious. The "wrong" Beethoven D-minor is so metronomic it sounds like it is being played by a computer; the "wrong" Rach cadenza is curiously underpowered and the real one comes as a sudden injection of charisma; the Horowitz moonlight is masterly compared to the other. Where V.H. scores is that (a) he feels a clear 2/2 pulse rather than wobbling between that and 4/4, and (b) his singing tone in projecting the melody and keeping the triplets subordinate when the dotted-rhythm melody starts.

The one I had to listen to twice (and still got wrong) was the Verdi, and that's my fault for try to second guess the quizz!!! The one I selected blasts its out-of-tune "E"s at us and then is either laboured or stately depending on how charitable one wants to be. I figured that this was such an obvious "unknown" that it must have been thrown in as a trick question - foolish me!

best to all,
Henry
The probability to get your score (5 out of 6 correct) by random guessing is 6/64~9%. Thus we can't exclude the hypothesis that you were clueless on the 5% level. At the same time Matti got 10 out of 10 correct in "Mozart or Salieri?" quiz. The probability to get such score by chance is 1/1024~0.1%. This suggests that he understands some music and his comment on this quiz is the opinion of an expert.

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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:42 pm

Cool, I own that Beethoven set. :D

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Post by Simkin » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:54 pm

Gary wrote:
Simkin wrote:The probability to get 6 out of 6 right by random guessing is 1 in 64. This means that out of 64 people one shall pass as an
expert.
I believe Holden Fourth. So that's 2 out of 64.
First 64 was not the actual number of quiz-takers. The origin of this number is 64=2^6 (the total number of all possible answers to the quiz).

Now, suppose that it was the actual number of quiz-takers, recordered in the database. If to believe Holden Fourth than some results failed to be recordered in the database. This would mean that the fraction of correct answers would be (2 + x) / (65 +y), where x and y are unknown.
As there is no reason to believe that failure to record a test result in the database has any correlation with the score, it is reasonable to assume that unrecordered results do not affect the distribution of scores.
Last edited by Simkin on Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Simkin » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:01 pm

Gary wrote:Well, if you're so sane, Simkin, why not share your philosophy with us? I'm perfectly willing to listen. Believe it or not, I'm probably your biggest supporter.
It is too long a topic for the forum. Some ideas are described in these articles:

Theory of Aces: Fame by chance or merit?
Authors: M.V. Simkin, V.P. Roychowdhury
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0310049

Copied citations create renowned papers?
Authors: M.V. Simkin, V.P. Roychowdhury
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0305150

Read before you cite!
Authors: M.V. Simkin, V.P. Roychowdhury
http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0212043

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Post by Sporkadelic » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:18 am

I got 5 of 6, missing the Verdi which seems to have given more than one of us trouble. Mostly, I chose the performance I thought was the better one. In one or two instances I may have been swayed by production quality. If I heard more detail in a "famous" orchestral performance, was it the conductor bringing it out, or the low-budget "non-famous" production quality obscuring that detail (less care taken over mic placement, less rehearsal time & opportunity for retakes)? Perhaps a bit of both.

The Brahms Concerto excerpt was easy. How many non-famous pianists recorded warhorse concerti in the pre-tape days? Bulva seemed quite alright in this, but I think he had much the worse of the comparison for his metronomic Moonlight.

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Re: quiz results

Post by matti » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:18 am

double post
Last edited by matti on Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: quiz results

Post by matti » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:46 am

Simkin wrote: At the same time Matti got 10 out of 10 correct in "Mozart or Salieri?" quiz. The probability to get such score by chance is 1/1024~0.1%. This suggests that he understands some music and his comment on this quiz is the opinion of an expert.
This quiz is a bit different from the previous one - it's more (not completely of course, but more) a matter of opinion, as the Mozart/Salieri quiz was a matter of plain fact. And like Jbuck, I'm not much into comparing recordings. I'm by no means an expert, at least as far as recordings are concerned.

Hcday had very good arguments pro Horowitz. Horowitz did have an incredible palette of tonal colours, though he's famous for his fireworks. I just did not hear these qualities in this particular excerpt.

Both pianists played the triplets far too loud, and neither was poetic enough, but (imo, of course) Horowitz sounded both prosaic (or prozaic :)) and self-indulgent at the same time. He did some strange stuff in the bass that was not logical at all, he held back in places where the music should have gone forward. Also, he didn't seem to notice that there were some modulations along the short way...

I've performed this piece myself years ago. I made a mess of the last movement. It went much better at home of course. :D So, in a very modest way, I'm a bit biased. I'd play it quite differently.

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Re: quiz results

Post by hcday » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:40 pm

matti wrote:This quiz is a bit different from the previous one - it's more (not completely of course, but more) a matter of opinion, as the Mozart/Salieri quiz was a matter of plain fact. And like Jbuck, I'm not much into comparing recordings. I'm by no means an expert, at least as far as recordings are concerned.
One of the good things about a forum like this is that we all have different backgrounds and varied (if overlapping) areas of expertise. Personally, I have very little affinity with the classical period and, were I inclined to do a Mozart & Salieri quiz, I doubt I'd cover myself in glory. Of Mozart's enormous (and enormously overrated?) oeuvre the pieces I know best are those that have been lovingly re-worked by his successors :wink: , e.g. Alkan's solo piano transcription of the complete D minor concerto and Thalberg's of the Lacrymosa from the Requiem (and if anyone's interested in these I have the PDFs).

How about a related question: how many quiz takers correctly identified all 6 pieces? I knew all 6 by ear and could put a name to all but the Verdi, or so I thought. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that the concerto I'd casually put down as Saint-Saens' 5th ("Egyptienne") was in fact Brahms's 2nd. Oops!!!
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Re: quiz results

Post by Gary » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:52 pm

hcday wrote: How about a related question: how many quiz takers correctly identified all 6 pieces? I knew all 6 by ear and could put a name to all but the Verdi, or so I thought.
Well in my case, I knew all 6 by ear and could put a name to all but the Wagner. :oops:
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

zauberflote

That was fun

Post by zauberflote » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:56 pm

I spent more time on that than I should have and bombed out on two, both the Beethovens. But the Horowitz amounts to a trick question. Who listens to Horowitz for his Beethoven? And boy was that a slick, uninspired performance.
I never much cared for Solti's Beethoven either, he always makes it sound lumbering, and it seemed the other performance was better receorded. But I'm just making excuses. Any more of those out there?

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Re: quiz results

Post by matti » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:04 pm

hcday wrote:Of Mozart's enormous (and enormously overrated?) oeuvre the pieces I know best are those that have been lovingly re-worked by his successors :wink: , e.g. Alkan's solo piano transcription of the complete D minor concerto and Thalberg's of the Lacrymosa from the Requiem
With all due respect, that's rich! And BTW, the Lacrymosa might well have been composed or at least completed by Süssmeyr. We don't know for sure.

And since you admit you don't even know much about the oeuvre, it's pretty arrogant and silly of you to state that Mozart's output is overrated.

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Re: quiz results

Post by hcday » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:50 pm

matti wrote:With all due respect, that's rich! And BTW, the Lacrymosa might well have been composed or at least completed by Süssmeyr. We don't know for sure..
What? He wrote EVEN fewer masterworks than I thought? :o
matti wrote:And since you admit you don't even know much about the oeuvre, it's pretty arrogant and silly of you to state that Mozart's output is overrated.
I actually raised it as a question, and with a wink too, being not entirely serious! But I do believe that Mozart's early works benefit from the halo effect of his late masterpieces. These juvenilia probably get 100 times the exposure of contemporaneous works, e.g. the symphonies of Myslivicek, but are they really any more worthy? Would the world be so much the poorer if K1 - K250 suddenly vanished? This brings us back to the point someone else has already made in this thread, about comparing the minor works of masters with the masterworks of minors (and I don't mean children). I firmly believe in approaching everything with an innocent ear...
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~~~~~~~

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Re: quiz results

Post by matti » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:03 am

hcday wrote:
I do believe that Mozart's early works benefit from the halo effect of his late masterpieces. These juvenilia probably get 100 times the exposure of contemporaneous works, e.g. the symphonies of Myslivicek, but are they really any more worthy? Would the world be so much the poorer if K1 - K250 suddenly vanished?
With this I can more or less agree. But how often do you actually hear K 1 - K 250 in concerts?

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Re: quiz results

Post by Simkin » Sat Oct 15, 2005 1:16 am

matti wrote:I'm not much into comparing recordings. I'm by no means an expert, at least as far as recordings are concerned.
I never heard of a university issuing a degree in comparing recordings.
However, two people with Masters degrees in music got 33% and 50%.
See:
http://reverent.org/unknown_musician_feedback.html

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Post by jserraglio » Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:00 am

Corlyss_D wrote:I had a lot of trouble with the site. First the clips had hiccups at the beginning, then I couldn't get WMP to work - damn Nero thinks it's my default player and then it would seize up - then the page kept timing out. Guess I'll have to sit this one out.
If you want to undo the Nero takeover, this might do it:

<img src="http://users.flxtek.net/~jserraglio/wmp.jpg" width="800" height="600">

premont
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Post by premont » Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:50 am

2/6, and my conclusion is, that these short, certainly not at random choosen items just demonstrate, that many "famous" performers are variable in their artistic achievements. Not surprising at all.

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Post by Simkin » Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:04 pm

premont wrote:2/6, and my conclusion is, that these short, certainly not at random choosen items just demonstrate, that many "famous" performers are variable in their artistic achievements. Not surprising at all.
The items indeed were not chosen at random. First of all it is not easy to find recordings of unknown musicians. So those which I could get defined the music pieces used in the quiz. When I had at hand several recordings of the famous musicians I always selected the most famous musician(s).

For example, I have in my collection Tanhauser prrformed by:

New York Philharmonic / Zubin Mehta
Berliner Philharmoniker / Claudio Abbado
Berliner Philharmoniker /Herbert von Karajan

I selected the last one.

This was the only selection criteria I used.

premont
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Post by premont » Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:40 pm

Simkin wrote:
premont wrote:2/6, and my conclusion is, that these short, certainly not at random choosen items just demonstrate, that many "famous" performers are variable in their artistic achievements. Not surprising at all.
The items indeed were not chosen at random. First of all it is not easy to find recordings of unknown musicians. So those which I could get defined the music pieces used in the quiz. When I had at hand several recordings of the famous musicians I always selected the most famous musician(s).
You write that the items were NOT choosen at random, and this is excactly what I wrote above. And as the items were NOT choosen at random, the test is of limited value. The bias is that the number of items is too small, and that a relative large part of the choosen recordings of the famous performers are rather blend performances.

Simkin
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Post by Simkin » Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:43 pm

premont wrote:You write that the items were NOT choosen at random, and this is excactly what I wrote above. And as the items were NOT choosen at random, the test is of limited value.
You previous comment appeared to imply that I intentionally selected bad recordings of famous musicians. This sort of non-randomness would definitely invalidate the quiz results. However, the non-randomness of the selection of items for the quiz , which I described above, only makes results more valid.

BTW, check out these threads for a funny discussion of randomness:
http://cellosoft.com/2draw/view/51587/
http://cellosoft.com/2draw/view/52735/
premont wrote:The bias is that the number of items is too small
The fact that the number of items is small can not possibly constitute a bias.
premont wrote: a relative large part of the choosen recordings of the famous performers are rather blend performances.
What do you mean by that?

premont
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Post by premont » Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:16 pm

Simkin wrote: You previous comment appeared to imply that I intentionally selected bad recordings of famous musicians. This sort of non-randomness would definitely invalidate the quiz results. However, the non-randomness of the selection of items for the quiz , which I described above, only makes results more valid.
premont wrote:The bias is that the number of items is too small
The fact that the number of items is small can not possibly constitute a bias.
premont wrote: a relative large part of the choosen recordings of the famous performers are rather blend performances.
What do you mean by that?
Firstly I used the word bias in a broader sense meaning source of error.
Six items are too few to make a conclusive test. The result may become completely untrue.

Secondly you may unconsciously have choosen the stony Solti recording and the definitely soulless Horowitz recording to make the test more difficult, and this is a bias in both meanings of the word.

Gary
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Post by Gary » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:01 pm

Simkin,

Name a few who you think are/were geniuses, from science to music.
"Your idea of a donut-shaped universe intrigues me, Homer; I may have to steal it."

--Stephen Hawking makes guest appearance on The Simpsons

Simkin
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Post by Simkin » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:09 pm

premont wrote: Firstly I used the word bias in a broader sense meaning source of error.
The word "bias" does not have such broader sense in English language.
premont wrote:Secondly you may unconsciously have choosen the stony Solti recording and the definitely soulless Horowitz recording to make the test more difficult, and this is a bias in both meanings of the word.
I have two recordings of the 9th symphony:

The London Classical Players / Roger Norrington
Chicago symphony Orchestra / Georg Solti

The last one is, obviously, by more famous musicians, so I chose it.

There were two pieces with Horowitz. Which one is soulless?

Gregg Deering
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Post by Gregg Deering » Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:13 pm

premont wrote:
Secondly you may unconsciously have chosen the stony Solti recording and the definitely soulless Horowitz recording to make the test more difficult, and this is a bias in both meanings of the word.
I don't agree that the Horowitz is "soulless".

If you want soulless Horowitz I suggest you get the Reiner Beethoven Concerto #5. Technically amazing, flip over to the Edwin Fischer/Furtwangler and you have contest.

In pop circles some people have a "foot tapping" test, the Horowitz won, for me, because it passed the same test. I know the recording (I grew up with it) though I'd never guess it - and I'd never take that kind of test.

I would add that recording quality might have imparted a bias. It might be a good idea next time to get a crummy old Beethoven 5 (they must be out there) and compare it with the C. Kleiber Beethoven 5. It will be harder to get acknowledged masterpieces for contemporary recordings, but it's just a game after all.


Gregg

premont
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Post by premont » Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:52 am

Simkin wrote: I have two recordings of the 9th symphony:

The London Classical Players / Roger Norrington
Chicago symphony Orchestra / Georg Solti

The last one is, obviously, by more famous musicians, so I chose it.

There were two pieces with Horowitz. Which one is soulless?
To me Norrington is just as well known as Solti generally (I have heard a very few of Soltis recordings, - I don´t like his style), and in the actual case I know Norrington even better, as I know his HIP Choral, but not Soltis Choral.

The soulless Horowitz in my view is the Moonlight. I own it and always found it blend.

Thanks for your language correction. My native language isn´t English (or American) and I can´t avoid making some mistakes in between. I trust your patience in this matter.

premont
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Post by premont » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:07 am

Gregg Deering wrote:
I don't agree that the Horowitz is "soulless".

If you want soulless Horowitz I suggest you get the Reiner Beethoven Concerto #5. Technically amazing, flip over to the Edwin Fischer/Furtwangler and you have contest.

I would add that recording quality might have imparted a bias. It might be a good idea next time to get a crummy old Beethoven 5 (they must be out there) and compare it with the C. Kleiber Beethoven 5. It will be harder to get acknowledged masterpieces for contemporary recordings, but it's just a game after all.

Gregg
I own the Horowitz Moonlight sonata (RCA: Three Beethoven sonatas) and keep it just because of veneration for the artist. I think he plays as if he doesn´t really understand the composer. And thanks for warning me against his Emperor with Reiner.

I can only second your words about the recording quality.

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